DC/Vertigo Cosmology Redo (Part 2 of 2)

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I’ve updated the thread much further.

 

[Antvasima]

I’ve updated the thread much further.

@Elizio33 @Firestorm808 @DarkDragonMedeus @Ultima_Reality

Are you willing to evaluate the new information please?

 

[Deleted member 30746]

For new additions:

The Literals is part of Fables. And in fact, Fables belonged to creator Bill Willingham until last year, but then it entered the public domain. And it still has nothing to do with Sandman.

Deadman series is also independent of Sandman.

I don't know if we can use Dick Foreman's Black Orchid series. But we can use the first series written by Neil Gaiman.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

For new additions:

The Literals is part of Fables. And in fact, Fables belonged to creator Bill Willingham until last year, but then it entered the public domain. And it still has nothing to do with Sandman.

The concept there extends to the Books of Magic ie Mundane Egg which the conception was explored all throughout Books of Magic and its several branching storyline and they were written around the same time. Even then Literal isn't needed, but I found it cool since Bill near those times was writing mostly Vertigo comics hence why the bulk comes from House of Mystery. It can still definitely be used.

Deadman series is also independent of Sandman.

I don't know if we can use Dick Foreman's Black Orchid series. But we can use the first series written by Neil Gaiman.

Yeah, it definitely works since the description of the realms are most fantasy and operates like the Far Realms. It’s more linked to Sandman than not.

As for Deadman, I can remove that.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Okay since we have enough staff support and a significant amount of time has passed since then, I think we should be fine to move onto applying the changes.

With Vertigo, essentially every 1-A would become High 1-A, with the true form of God being 0. Unless there is any objections from the higher-ups, If we could get links of the pages that would be affected so that so that a higher-up can unlock them, that'll be appreciated.

 

[Deleted member 30746]

The concept there extends to the Books of Magic ie Mundane Egg which the conception was explored all throughout Books of Magic and its several branching storyline and they were written around the same time. Even then Literal isn't needed, but I found it cool since Bill near those times was writing mostly Vertigo comics hence why the bulk comes from House of Mystery. It can still definitely be used.

Bill's personality and writing style fits well with the storytelling in all of these series, but if we want to use it, it will require a connection to cosmology. Bill has written many Vertigo stories, and they all create a narrative and story setting on the same frequency. House of Mystery would be a standalone work, like 1996's House of Secrets series, if it didn't use its position within Dreaming and retroactive Sandman terms.

Yeah, it definitely works since the description of the realms are most fantasy and operates like the Far Realms. It’s more linked to Sandman than not.

If the Black Orchid series refers to the Far Realms "used/mentioned in Sandmen" then yes. But is there anything to it?

 

[Deleted member 30746]

Okay since we have enough staff support and a significant amount of time has passed since then, I think we should be fine to move onto applying the changes.

With Vertigo, essentially every 1-A would become High 1-A, with the true form of God being 0. Unless there is any objections from the higher-ups, If we could get links of the pages that would be affected so that so that a higher-up can unlock them, that'll be appreciated.

Despite everything, I want to wait for Ultima until Friday. Because he said he would look into it.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Despite everything, I want to wait for Ultima until Friday. Because he said he would look into it.

He said the same thing of other threads in a similar fashion. I'm not doubting the possibility he may show up, but because of his responsibilities outside of Vsbattles, which is understandable and I am by no means judging him for that as life is life, we can't exactly guarantee he'll be able to show up by that time.

 

[Deleted member 30746]

He said the same thing of other threads in a similar fashion. I'm not doubting the possibility he may show up, but because of his responsibilities outside of Vsbattles, which is understandable and I am by no means judging him for that as life is life, we can't exactly guarantee he'll be able to show up by that time.

That's why I want to wait despite everything. There are also only three staff approvals. This number is not enough for upgrades at such a tier.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Bill's personality and writing style fit well with the storytelling in all of these series, but if we want to use it, it will require a connection to cosmology. Bill has written many Vertigo stories, and they all create a narrative and story setting on the same frequency. House of Mystery would be a standalone work, like 1996's House of Secrets series if it didn't use its position within Dreaming and retroactive Sandman terms.

Yeah, and that's the point. Spin-offs such as House of Mystery and Literals follow the route. The latter conceptions, direction, and route follow closer to Sandman's using terminology and how the fabric of reality works is so much closer than Fables. That's due to the fact, the nature of Fables and Sandman alike share the idea of fantasies/stories being by-products of humans' collective unconscious ie Dreaming as the board concept as a realm of stories, fiction, and unrealness.

In short, there's really no reason not to use nor is it actually wrong to do so.

If the Black Orchid series refers to the Far Realms "used/mentioned in Sandmen" then yes. But is there anything to it?

I skim through the story for only the cool parts. Though, it treats reality and all the fantasy worlds are part of dreams not unlike Books of Magic and the Dreaming. They talk a lot about dreams, stories, and worlds conjured by the minds. I think its closer to Sandman than House of Mystery.

 

[Antvasima]

I would personally greatly prefer if we keep Fables and The Unwritten very far away from regular DC Comics scaling. Fables has had crossovers with each of those stories, yes, but as far as I am aware, the Fables/Batman crossover was out of continuity for DC Comics, with The Literals not fitting into DC's cosmological narrative, and The Unwritten crossover was never referenced or treated as canon within the Fables series itself, as The Leviathan would not fit into that cosmological narrative in turn.

 

[Deleted member 30746]

Yeah, and that's the point. Spin-offs such as House of Mystery and Literals follow the route. The latter conceptions, direction, and route follow closer to Sandman's using terminology and how the fabric of reality works is so much closer than Fables. That's due to the fact, the nature of Fables and Sandman alike share the idea of fantasies/stories being by-products of humans' collective unconscious ie Dreaming as the board concept as a realm of stories, fiction, and unrealness.

This is still a weak point. It's okay that all these surreal stories or any other elements are born from the Dreaming. But there is no connection between them. If we are going to use this logic, we need to add The Unwritten series to the Vertigo Cosmology. You also know that the latest issues of The Unwritten were written in collaboration with Fables.

In short, there's really no reason not to use nor is it actually wrong to do so.

I skim through the story for only the cool parts. Though, it treats reality and all the fantasy worlds are part of dreams not unlike Books of Magic and the Dreaming. They talk a lot about dreams, stories, and worlds conjured by the minds. I think its closer to Sandman than House of Mystery.

As I said, nothing is guaranteed just because the style of expression used is the same.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I would personally greatly prefer if we keep Fables and The Unwritten very far away from regular DC Comics scaling. Fables has had crossovers with each of those stories, yes, but as far as I am aware, the Fables/Batman crossover was out of continuity for DC Comics, with The Literals not fitting into DC's cosmological narrative, and The Unwritten crossover was never referenced or treated as canon within the Fables series itself, as The Leviathan would not fit into that cosmological narrative in turn.

It certainly doesn't fit to Crisis or DeMatteis Cosmology, but Literal is still has connection to the Sandman Universe. Just being a spinoff of Fables doesn't mean anything. If anything, it is a spinoff undermines its connection to Fables in favor of Sandman, or else they wont be using established lore and concepts that Sandman and the Books of Magic introduce. Its purposeful that its connection is close to Books of Magic and not Fables.

As for the Unwritten, yeah, we're not dealing with it. Its creator-owned, it's not anything like what we’re dealing with Literals. Fables, of course, in large should be separate, but the connection between Fables and Literals is next to nothing other than being a spinoff.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

This is still a weak point. It's okay that all these surreal stories or any other elements are born from the Dreaming. But there is no connection between them. If we are going to use this logic, we need to add The Unwritten series to the Vertigo Cosmology. You also know that the latest issues of The Unwritten were written in collaboration with Fables.

Your last point isn't a good case of an argument any more than what I said between Literals and Sandman. You can certainly claim I’ve made a weak point, but the only connecting storyline in Literals that connects to Fables is next to nothing. I'm fine with dropping it, but I didn't randomly choose it without considering its canonicity which concepts like reality being a story and using the mundane egg which is specific to Sandman correlates with being intentionally close to Sandman as opposed to being a spinoff of Fables which is the main argument against using it, which I find weak.

As I said, nothing is guaranteed just because the style of expression used is the same.

I've read it but reskimmed it. I wouldn’t randomly choose it if it didn't connect to Vertigo. It's also not a standalone story not creator-owned. It's part of the Vertigo Universe and the closer sphere of Sandman. Like you said the timeline after Neil wrote Black Orchid and this series is close and follows his elements. It's most certainly canon to Sandman. There's no doubt and I’ll stand on the point. Even better, you could read it and see it. I'm trying to make a Cosmology revision not to explain every little detail of the story connection, but this is clear as day, The Black Orchid Solos series under Vertigo is connected to the main Snamdan stories at large. On a lesser end, you could argue that it’s special, but we're not looking at the lesser end since even a series like Lucifer differs from Sandman on the smaller than theme, but is part of the Sandman Universe at large.

 

[Antvasima]

The Literals were a massive part of Fables for a very long time through the extended mystery identity of its writer character, Kevin Thorn, which then culminated in a long storyline spanning both Fables and Jack of Fables.

Even if The Literals borrowed a few unpatented ideas from other series, this does not make those characters canon to any part of DC Comics, and if they were, we would likely have to include Kevin Thorn as the supreme being of DC Comics, or possibly The Leviathan instead. Let's just stay away from that entire illogical mess please.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

The Literals were a massive part of Fables for a very long time through the extended mystery identity of its writer character, Kevin Thorn, which then culminated in a long storyline spanning both Fables and Jack of Fables.

Even if The Literals borrowed a few unpatented ideas from other series, this does not make those characters canon to any part of DC Comics, and if they were, we would likely have to include Kevin Thorn as the supreme being of DC Comics, or possibly The Leviathan instead. Let's just stay away from that entire illogical mess please.

Alright, I suppose we can drop the Literals. However, it ends there since the rest should be fine and this is hours of research reading, and finding out how they link. I was unsure of the Literals at first, but I was hours in reading trying to find every little detail that I just added because it would be a pain to waste time reading something that wouldn't even make it to the Cosmology. So, I'm fine with dropping it since I just wanted to move to other stories to further empathize with the size of Vertigo Cosmology.

 

[Antvasima]

I likely do not mind the rest. I just don't want us to end up with Kevin Thorn and The Leviathan as somehow being the "creators" of DC Comics.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I likely do not mind the rest. I just don't want us to end up with Kevin Thorn and The Leviathan as somehow being the "creators" of DC Comics.

Yeah, I understand those concerns. With that being said I’m all for Ultima taking his time. However, I'm not willing to wait any more than by the end of either this week or next week. Since I have a feeling that we may not get active mod participation. Most of my threads were dragged way too long trying to wait for him.

 

[Deleted member 30746]

Your last point isn't a good case of an argument any more than what I said between Literals and Sandman. You can certainly claim I’ve made a weak point, but the only connecting storyline in Literals that connects to Fables is next to nothing. I'm fine with dropping it, but I didn't randomly choose it without considering its canonicity which concepts like reality being a story and using the mundane egg which is specific to Sandman correlates with being intentionally close to Sandman as opposed to being a spinoff of Fables which is the main argument against using it, which I find weak.

The Literals and Fables are by the same author. Being a spin-off doesn't change anything at this point. Anything where you think The Literals is closer to Sandman than Fables in this case is a weak point in my opinion. The Fables and The Unwritten can be used for the same cosmology, but never for Sandman. These are stories in themselves.

I've read it but reskimmed it. I wouldn’t randomly choose it if it didn't connect to Vertigo. It's also not a standalone story not creator-owned. It's part of the Vertigo Universe and the closer sphere of Sandman. Like you said the timeline after Neil wrote Black Orchid and this series is close and follows his elements. It's most certainly canon to Sandman. There's no doubt and I’ll stand on the point. Even better, you could read it and see it. I'm trying to make a Cosmology revision not to explain every little detail of the story connection, but this is clear as day, The Black Orchid Solos series under Vertigo is connected to the main Snamdan stories at large. On a lesser end, you could argue that it’s special, but we're not looking at the lesser end since even a series like Lucifer differs from Sandman on the smaller than theme, but is part of the Sandman Universe at large.

The Black Ochid part is actually not as far as the other one. It's usable, but I'll have to read it again. It's not in a position like Lucifer is because the character Lucifer appeared in Sandman. Black Orchid, on the other hand, predates Sandman. It is not similar to the situation of Abel and Cain because they are now identified with Sandman. Each series in which they appear is known for their evolution of the Sandman narrative.

 

[Antvasima]

Yeah, I understand those concerns. With that being said I’m all for Ultima taking his time. However, I'm not willing to wait any more than by the end of either this week or next week. Since I have a feeling that we may not get active mod participation. Most of my threads were dragged way too long trying to wait for him.

Ultima just told me that he will be busy with exams and other important real life issues within the near future.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Ultima just told me that he will be busy with exams and other important real life issues within the near future.

I think the best way to handle it(assuming Ultima won't be participating), I think we can wait 48 hours for mods to show up. If there's no other mods that do show up by then we move on with the thread in the next 24 hours after that. If we do get mods coming in and the result remains in favor of the revision then the next week is when we can formally apply the changes after the start of weekends(before the Monday after next week).

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

The Literals and Fables are by the same author. Being a spin-off doesn't change anything at this point. Anything where you think The Literals is closer to Sandman than Fables in this case is a weak point in my opinion. The Fables and The Unwritten can be used for the same cosmology, but never for Sandman. These are stories in themselves.

The Black Ochid part is actually not as far as the other one. It's usable, but I'll have to read it again. It's not in a position like Lucifer is because the character Lucifer appeared in Sandman. Black Orchid, on the other hand, predates Sandman. It is not similar to the situation of Abel and Cain because they are now identified with Sandman. Each series in which they appear is known for their evolution of the Sandman narrative.

Yeah, we're going to drop Literals. I already removed it from the thread, but, I'm fairly confident in keeping Black Orchid, no reason not to.

 

[Deleted member 30746]

Yeah, we're going to drop Literals. I already removed it from the thread, but, I'm fairly confident in keeping Black Orchid, no reason not to.

Yeah, we can use it.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

For the Void section. I’ll just add a key in the Overvoid page for it.

 

[Deleted member 30746]

For the Void section. I’ll just add a key in the Overvoid page for it.

I think there is no need. The fact that the Overvoid has a page is because it is a conscious void. This may cause confusion.

Yes, I accept that those are essentially the same thing, but since we have separated the cosmologies, such an addition is unnecessary in my opinion.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I think there is no need. The fact that the Overvoid has a page is because it is a conscious void. This may cause confusion.

Yes, I accept that those are essentially the same thing, but since we have separated the cosmologies, such an addition is unnecessary in my opinion.

Would you prefer a completely separate profile?

 

[Deleted member 30746]

Would you prefer a completely separate profile?

This would be better if we were to do something like this, but I still think it's unnecessary.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

This would be better if we were to do something like this, but I still think it's unnecessary.

It’s needs either a profile or a key. I much prefer the key route. We just rename the Overvoid profile as just “the Void” and we specify one for Crisis Cosmology and one for Vertigo. It’s an important realm for the Vertigo Cosmology.

If it’s still not good then we can leave it be and keep it in the blog.

 

[Elizio33]

It’s needs either a profile or a key. I much prefer the key route. We just rename the Overvoid profile as just “the Void” and we specify one for Crisis Cosmology and one for Vertigo. It’s an important realm for the Vertigo Cosmology.

If it’s still not good then we can leave it be and keep it in the blog.

The Overvoid has a profile because it is a conscious void. Otherwise it would not have a profile and would simply be mentioned in the DC Cosmology blog.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

The Overvoid has a profile because it is a conscious void. Otherwise it would not have a profile and would simply be mentioned in the DC Cosmology blog.

They’re both a “Void.” It will be clarified which is which. So you guys are more keen for just a separate profile or not a creation at all, but, since it’s High 1-A+, it’s a very important role.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Any questions or concerns? The changes will be made tomorrow as that’s 72 hours passed.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

The Cosmology blog has now been updated including additions of an extra section.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

With "blog", do you mean our regular DC Comics Cosmology page?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Thank you for helping out.

With "blog", do you mean our regular DC Comics Cosmology page?

Yes.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for your reply.

 

[Hirotoswnn1x]

Now the editing has started, right? I see goofy editing Michael and endless and presence.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Now the editing has started, right? I see goofy editing Michael and endless and presence.

Yeah.

 

[Hirotoswnn1x]

Yeah.

Tim hunter to High1-A ?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Tim hunter to High1-A ?

That needs a separate CRT.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

That needs a separate CRT.

Uh he's already scaled to 1-A in his Full Potential Key for affecting all of creation, so that can probably be updated.