- 181
- 278
Darkness was before Light, Light came after.
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Lucifer, Dream, and Michael downgrade
- Thread starter Transcending
- Start date
- Status
- 7,904
- 14,966
Perpetua says to her sons: "I hope to please the Source of our power" with regards to creating the multiverse.
Unless we are imagining that the Light randomly appeared for no reason, it's clear that the division between the Light and the Darkness was an action that the Presence took ("Let there be Light") to define himself as an existent being. There is no darkness without light, and vice versa.
I already addressed this.
Transcending
He/Him- 1,998
- 1,524
- Thread starter
- #43
Let's look at the quote. The scan clearly mentions how when the Great Darkness screamed, an imperceptible flaw was formed
This is a clear reference to this scan from Multiversity. They even used the same format and stuff.
And in Multiversity the flaw was clearly the Orrery, there's no reason that would change for the new canon. A flaw was formed in the Overvoid/Light, simple.
Now, after this, the JLI scan mentions the Multiverse being created, but "Multiverse" in DC doesn't necessarily refer to the Map, it can also refer to the Orrery. And going by the art which clearly shows just the universes, it's a pretty explicit reference at the infinite universes.
Moreover, the next scan mentions how Anti-Monitor wanted to destroy the Multiverse and AM only wanted to destroy the Orrery, not the whole map, definitively proving the reference to Orrery.
It not only feels like it fits the story better, but the Empty Hand was stated in DC's website to credibly challenge Lucifer, and EH is just an aspect of TGD.
- 170
- 257
Lmaoo i'm dying rn imagine explaining something that obvious to someone in a debate.
- 7,904
- 14,966
To clarify, are you claiming that the universes themselves were made by the Darkness, but that the higher realms around it were added separately by Perpetua?
When was this? Scan?
With certain users I feel like I am constantly being asked to explain the simplest things to a painstaking degree, and it's just tiresome so I eventually start ignoring it. I know that level of nitpicking is never going to get a CRT approved, so why bother?
- 181
- 278
You have to explain, otherwise your claim gets dismissed via Hitchen's Razor.
Deleted member 2530
Guest
I don't get any of your point. Aside from the point of contention on where 2018 Lucifer lies in relation to Carey's series, that is a very explicitly wingless and weakened Lucifer and I don't see where he is bluffing when Destiny asserts that yes perhaps Lucifer could destroy him.
The point regarding Logoz isn't any concrete either. The tower specifically has a room where God's words lie and the room is called the Logos. And in Spectre vol 4, Spectre himself is the Logoz. You will have to show why you think the Logoz surpasses any and all Archangels.
Transcending
He/Him- 1,998
- 1,524
- Thread starter
- #48
Yeah exactly. The infinite universes were created by TGD, but the higher realms like The Sphere, Limbo, Nil, etc were created by Perpetua.
- 3,214
- 2,432
When the Flaw form in of the coming Multiverse. The other claim doesn't make sense with Perpetua. As the Flaw came it expanded into the Multiverse. Say it right after the form of that Flaw.
- 3,214
- 2,432
GEB is Great Darkness. There’s no separation between these two.
- 7,904
- 14,966
You can dismiss any claims you want, but people refusing to explain basic things to you doesn't actually make them wrong, and saying things like "well how do we KNOW the Source is above it's Hands?" is not going to be convincing to any of the staff on this site, and you rarely/never apply that same level of skepticism to your own claims.
This is nonsensical. It completely goes against Perpetua's storyline which showed her creating the actual multiverse itself. It is completely backwards to try and selectively cling to her involvement in specific aspects of creation when the most important part of it was clearly retconned to be by someone else.
This doesn't even mention the Empty Hand, and what page is this from?
- 181
- 278
In the scan you're talking about, it's not referring to the Source as the source of her power but simply a reference to the entity.
If it was a reference to the literal source of her power, it wouldn't make sense how Perpetua would want to please it with her power as it would already know everything about her power
Darkness was before Light, and there are like 4 statements supporting this.
Transcending
He/Him- 1,998
- 1,524
- Thread starter
- #53
It's not nonsensical. Is it a contradiction to Perpetua's original storyline? Yes, but JLI #4 has been clear on TGD just creating the Orrery, meaning we retcon the part where she created the Orrery but don't retcon the part where she created everything else.
Yes but that can be deducted, as the entity from the OG Swamp Thing was confirmed to be EH.
The Sandman: A History of Hell | DC
In the fourth issue of The Sandman, Dream of the Endless makes his perilous journey to the depths of Hell to retrie
- 7,904
- 14,966
It literally says "the source of our power."
She never said she was going to please it "with her power." She is trying to please the Source of her power by creating the multiverse.
You can keep repeating yourself if you want, I'll just do the same.
Unless we are imagining that the Light randomly appeared for no reason, it's clear that the division between the Light and the Darkness was an action that the Presence took ("Let there be Light") to define himself as an existent being. There is no darkness without light, and vice versa.
- 170
- 257
Tbh i don't see the point of this debate. This crt is basically about downgrading archangels and the Endless. I think Deagonx and i already have proved that Destiny's book contains everything in the Map, and Lucifer / Michael scales to the Map as Michael has power to destroy or renew the entire Creation and together they created a new Creation outside of the Map, and they're basically halves of Presence's power. So downgrade of archangels or the Endless won't happen until cosmology split.
- 7,904
- 14,966
You can claim this if you want, but no, I think it's absolute nonsense. Her storyline as the creator of the multiverse was retconned. Trying to claim that she still created all the other realms makes no sense. That line of argument is not reasonable and will never get accepted here.
No, it wasn't. It was the Great Darkness. The EH was not a separate distinct entity until later. The conversations the Great Darkness had with Swamp Thing, the Spectre, et cetera, were not the Empty Hand.
The Sandman: A History of Hell | DC
In the fourth issue of The Sandman, Dream of the Endless makes his perilous journey to the depths of Hell to retriewww.dc.com
Even this page doesn't describe the matter from the perspective of the Great Darkness vs Lucifer, it says Hell was divided, which is what challenged Lucifer's dominion, but that other storylines actually regarded it as being the First of the Fallen.
- 181
- 278
Again, why exactly does "creation" in Vertigo refer to all of Map? Unless you're implying that Multiverse always refers to Map, which doesn't make sense, since Orrery has been referred as Multiverse as well.
- 7,904
- 14,966
This was already explained, multiple times.
- 181
- 278
It wasn't. Everyone just said "Vertigo's creations refers to different universes or multiverse". That's not valid proof.
Transcending
He/Him- 1,998
- 1,524
- Thread starter
- #60
From your perspective you proved it, from mine you haven't.
And I responded to it
This itself brings a problem. Michael was stated to be able to renew atoms of creation but atoms don't exist all the way up in Limbo and Nil.
They didn't but even if they did, why would this make them 1-A?
There's a distinction between Yahweh and the Divine Presence. Additionally, Lucifer's statement seems to more imply that Presence gave each of them powers as great as Presence's own, instead of giving half the power. Plus Lucifer in literally the next sentence stated that the Presence prohibited him from actually using that power.
- 7,904
- 14,966
Stop misrepresenting the discussion to ask for the same evidence over and over and over again. It's pointless. LuciferDC099 explained his reasoning and I also explained mine.
- 3,214
- 2,432
It's referred as a Totality equal to a Creation that is all-encompassing that is referred to as The Universe or the Multiverse which are interchangeable.
Transcending
He/Him- 1,998
- 1,524
- Thread starter
- #63
What? Saying it is nonsense is not an argument. You will have to explain it and address my argument.
EH wasn't a distinct entity but the hand still kept the power he eventually got from when in the future he became EH. Their power levels are the same, and JL dark confirmed only a sliver of TGD was there in Swamp Thing.
No, check again, Hell being divided into 3 rulers resulted due to EH.
- 3,214
- 2,432
Atoms aren’t literal its saying his renewing the lowest level of reality to shape up Creation. The Atoms are of convenience, not direct manner.
- 181
- 278
Why would "Totality" = Map? "All encompassing" doesn't include everything since there are different creations and all are contained within Void.
Transcending
He/Him- 1,998
- 1,524
- Thread starter
- #66
Where was this stated? When the scan says atoms there's no reason to assume it's not literal.
- 170
- 257
Oh, here we go again.
1) Destiny's book contains the entire Map.
2) In Vertigo it was stated that Destiny's book contains universe or creation.
3) So this means if someone talks about the universe inside of Destiny's book they mean the entire Map.
4) Lucifer's Creation is beyond Destiny's book.
5) So Lucifer and Michael together created an entire new Creation which is outside of the Map. Also Lucifer tanked the explosion which created that new Creation easily.
6) Michael renewed every moment of Presence's Creation which is the entire Map as Destiny's book contains the entire map.
It's insane that some people can't understand something that obvious.
- 3,214
- 2,432
The Hand is of the EH being symbolic to his hand being filled. The Darkness was the one fighting the Dark. In JLI #4 we see the pact between them and the scan underneath was the Hand of the Darkness. It's pure symbolism since he was only there for the pact. GEB and Great Darkness are the same there is no distinction. Since all of them including the Empty Hand is avatars.
- 3,214
- 2,432
The Void is a paradox and where it was born. So it doesn't. All-encompassing means all dimensions in the Universe.
- 181
- 278
How does that = Map?
- 7,904
- 14,966
No, I genuinely don't. You can say it till you are blue in the face, but it will not be accepted as reasonable. Perpetua was dispatched to create a multiverse, which includes the universes. The storyline predominantly concerned itself with the physical universes that Perpetua and her sons were responsible for. Her "false" Multiverse involved creating universes which had warriors so she could try and fight the Hands. She destroyed the universes one by one in the storyline to recreate the multiverse anew.
Separating the physical universes from Perpetua, but trying to still hold her responsible for the other aspects of the multiverse, flies completely in the face of her roles in the story which has clearly been retconned. It's mental gymnastics, and you can cling to it as much as you want, but it will never be accepted by staff or other knowledgeable members.
The entity in Swamp Thing was the entire Great Darkness, that was the point of the story. The JL Dark "sliver" thing was based on an iteration of the Great Darkness which no longer exists and was itself a giant retcon. They stopped referring to it as the Great Darkness later in the story.
Except it wasn't the Empty Hand, that's not even in the article, which is just some random article on the DC website by someone who isn't even an author, and the reading of the texts suggest the challenge to Lucifer's dominion was because Hell was divided on how to respond. None of that actually contradicts what the story said about Lucifer and TGD.
- 170
- 257
How is it literal if Speed Force Wall is limit to the matter? So you're saying that Presence didn't create anything beyond the Orrery even though Destiny's book contains everything in the Map of the Multiverse? Even Heaven and Hell are metaphysical realms...
This thread is just on another level lmao.
- 3,214
- 2,432
In that same manner renewing atoms was remewing Creation. Everything in Creation aren't physical like “Sour, Flavor, Emotion” he was renewing everything. Atoms, we're for the physical structure. He was renewing abstract, raw concepts and Yahweh Creation is infinite, since it already been at least a couple of days as Lucifer mentioned it would take at most a week. His working on each level.
Transcending
He/Him- 1,998
- 1,524
- Thread starter
- #74
I don't get what you mean here?
When did the Darkness fight itself?
What symbolism exists here? He was never stated to be only there for the pact, he was just the hand TGD used for the pact.
GEB isn't real.
- 3,214
- 2,432
That was a typo I meant to say the Dark was fighting the Light. Empty Hand is his right hand when you make a deal even if you left-handed you use your right. His specifically there only for the deal. It can be argued the Hand was his which became the Empty Hand which is his avatar and in that notion still the extension of the Darkness. The threat was the Darkness, not the Empty Hand.
- 3,214
- 2,432
That was just an example. All-Encompassing is all reality, all dimensions (higher and spatial), and much more. I don't need to force-feed you every detail. Meaning each Creation in Vertigo is essentially the Map just under the Source Wall.
- 7,904
- 14,966
+1. Trying to interpret the Swamp Thing storyline as being just the Empty Hand is incompatible with the point of the story. He just shook hands with the Light when they made a truce, that hand later became "the Empty Hand."
We're only discussing the Empty Hand at all because of some blog post on the DC website that is being taken out of context. The actual comics asserted that Lucifer was the Great Darkness, and was the "perfect darkness" to the Presence's "perfect light" and is required to give his light definition. This is aligned perfectly with the relationship between the Light and the Darkness in Williamson's storyline.
Transcending
He/Him- 1,998
- 1,524
- Thread starter
- #78
That's the literal definition of Argument from Incredulity.
Actually no. The universes were created by the World Forger.
Why is whether she was destroying the universes one-by-one later in the storyline relevant? That happened wayyy after TGD stuff.
In that case you will have to explain who created the other realms, because TGD surely didn't, unless you are claiming the flaw=map, the other realms look similar to normal universes, and that AM was destroying the whole map.
Transcending
He/Him- 1,998
- 1,524
- Thread starter
- #79
The Presence didn't create anything, everything related to that was retconned.
- 7,904
- 14,966
That does not change anything about what I have said. And clearly he is no longer responsible for them.
The point is that her role in the storyline is intrinsically linked to the physical universes. Removing that yet trying to maintain her role in other aspects makes no sense, she was dispatched by the Source to create a multiverse. Now, she didn't create a multiverse. Why would she still be responsible for the rest of it?
Prior to the introduction of Perpetua, who created them?
He is literally in charge of the Supercelestials. His role only became even higher. Lucifer still scales to him.
- Status
