Lucifer, Dream, and Michael downgrade

[Transcending]

In that same manner renewing atoms was remewing Creation

Has to be below Limbo in that case.

Everything in Creation aren't physical like “Sour, Flavor, Emotion” he was renewing everything. Atoms, we're for the physical structure. He was renewing abstract, raw concepts and Yahweh Creation is infinite, since it already been at least a couple of days as Lucifer mentioned it would take at most a week. His working on each level.

Scans?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

The Presence didn't create anything, everything related to that was retconned.

This has some truth to it. However, Lucifer and Michael crafted everything under the Presence of instruction. Despite them creating it they use his power to do so thus it is his.

Michael claims that whatever Lucifer owns belongs to the father as he created him thus by extension it is his.

This logic isn't that big to connect Perpetua or the Hands in which the Presence indirectly created Creation, in the same manner, they were created by him and used his power to make the Totalities that form into the Multiverse.

This may be false but you can look at it like that as well if you need more perspective.

 

[LuciferDC099]

The Presence didn't create anything, everything related to that was retconned.

Wow that's new, so Presence did nothing and we should downgrade him to 4-B via scaling from Superman, right?

 

[Deagonx]

Scans?

The physical universe wasn't the only thing jeopardize by the Presence abandoning creation, it also included Heaven and the Silver City which means that Michael's renewal also extends to the Sphere.

 

[Beyond_transcending]

Wow that's new, so Presence did nothing and we should downgrade him to 4-B via scaling from Superman, right?

It's not new.

Nobody's downgrading to 4B, the point is... he's not 1A.

 

[Transcending]

That does not change anything about what I have said.

Yes it does because it proves Perpetua never created them, and is hence not a contradiction.

And clearly he is no longer responsible for them.

Sure, it's a contradiction to Forger's story.

The point is that her role in the storyline is intrinsically linked to the physical universes.

It's only linked as in she wanted to remake them. Her wanting to remake them is not relevant to who originally created them, especially since she didn't do it in her own original story.

Removing that yet trying to maintain her role in other aspects makes no sense, she was dispatched by the Source to create a multiverse. Now, she didn't create a multiverse. Why would she still be responsible for the rest of it?

Again, she didn't create the original infinite universes either, Forger did. And even if Forger hadn't, she would still be responsible for the rest of it because there's no other candidate.

Prior to the introduction of Perpetua, who created them?

Idk.

He is literally in charge of the Supercelestials

Does not equal to him creating the Multiverses, only equals to him making others create Multiverses.

Lucifer still scales to him.

Yahweh at best, not Divine Presence, and even Yahweh is questionable

 

[Transcending]

Wow that's new, so Presence did nothing and we should downgrade him to 4-B via scaling from Superman, right?

Why would Presence not creating anything equal to him not doing anything?

 

[Transcending]

The physical universe wasn't the only thing jeopardize by the Presence abandoning creation, it also included Heaven and the Silver City which means that Michael's renewal also extends to the Sphere.

Because he also renewed every moment of it, not just the atoms. The Sphere has moments and time

 

[LuciferDC099]

Imagine giving a serious answer to a sarcastic post. Sorry, I can't continue this discussion since i really don't have time due to irl stuff. Just got some extra time today to help some crts but my luck... i posted in the wrong thread.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Has to be below Limbo in that case.

Scans?

Lilith mentions the the world was doomed. Every concept was falling in each step of Yahweh distancing himself. Since these are small concepts it works faster since it doesn't matter in the grander scheme.

Renewing Creation level by level

It's not limited to just matter. He became everyone in existence bringing back souls to humans, life to animals, the creavitiy to artist, the flavor in taste. These are the low level even Abstract like Time and Space are bleeding and Michael renewed it confirmed by Uriel. A feat only God could do.
Michael remaking Yahweh Creation
Each part of existence rebuilt.

 

[Beyond_transcending]

Imagine giving a serious answer to a sarcastic post. Sorry, I can't continue this discussion since i really don't have time due to irl stuff. Just got some extra time today to help some crts but my luck... i posted in the wrong thread.

Goodbye

 

[Deagonx]

Yes it does because it proves Perpetua never created them, and is hence not a contradiction.

Once again, I do not care to bicker about this endlessly. I find this take on the matter positively absurd and I doubt it will find any traction.

Yahweh at best, not Divine Presence, and even Yahweh is questionable

Completely disagree based on the evidence.

Because he also renewed every moment of it, not just the atoms. The Sphere has moments and time

That's the point, yes.

 

[Transcending]

That's the point, yes.

Limbo is devoid of time however.

Completely disagree based on the evidence

Let's say all your scans happen to be true, that still only amounts to Yahweh. You haven't showed scans of them scaling to the Divine Presence.

 

[Deagonx]

Limbo is devoid of time however.

Nil isn't.

Let's say all your scans happen to be true, that still only amounts to Yahweh. You haven't showed scans of them scaling to the Divine Presence.

None of the scans I am relying on use the term "Divine Presence" so I am not at all concerned with this separation.

 

[Tarang123]

Again, why exactly does "creation" in Vertigo refer to all of Map? Unless you're implying that Multiverse always refers to Map, which doesn't make sense, since Orrery has been referred as Multiverse as well.

It's all of creation. I think that, if we use a composite cosmology, would refer to the entire map. And we've even seen that the map is contained within Destiny's book, so it wouldn't be too far-fetched.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Limbo is devoid of time however.

Let's say all your scans happen to be true, that still only amounts to Yahweh. You haven't showed scans of them scaling to the Divine Presence.

In Doctor Fate Vol. 2 every Creator of everyone religion is a represented by a hidden figure of the one true Creator.

This God in Spectre Vol.4 we see that he is beyond everyone, which Yahweh is as well.

In Carey's writing summed up by the Monkey King and the Buddha story explain his body is that of the Void. When he doesn't choose avatar referencing the same quote of Void “Infinite and Eternal” and Yahweh “Infinite and Eternal”

God/Creator/The Unknown Entity is the same as Yahweh just without the addition of shape or function. The power is the same as referring to one is referring to the others as summed by Hal saying everything is part of his mind. That kind that dreamt everything summed by Stranger claim of God bringing us as his imagination, and JLD the Creator who brought them all. Yahweh is different in function, not power. He just made shaped and presented a belief system.

 

[Transcending]

Nil isn't.

Nil was, at the beginning. Then some clockwork patterns came

None of the scans I am relying on use the term "Divine Presence" so I am not at all concerned with this separation.

They don't mention "Yahweh" either, and the burden of proof is on you

 

[Beyond_transcending]

It's all of creation. I think that, if we use a composite cosmology, would refer to the entire map. And we've even seen that the map is contained within Destiny's book, so it wouldn't be too far-fetched.

Sure, but my question is, why does all of creation refer to Map?

 

[Transcending]

In Doctor Fate Vol. 2 every Creator of everyone religion is a represented by a hidden figure of the one true Creator.

This God in Spectre Vol.4 we see that he is beyond everyone, which Yahweh is as well.

In Carey's writing summed up by the Monkey King and the Buddha story explain his body is that of the Void. When he doesn't choose avatar referencing the same quote of Void “Infinite and Eternal” and Yahweh “Infinite and Eternal”

God/Creator/The Unknown Entity is the same as Yahweh just without the addition of shape or function. The power I the same as referring one is referring the others as summed by Hal saying everything is part of his mind. That kind that dreamt everything summed by Stranger claim of God bringing us as his imagination, and JLD the Creator who brought them all. Yahweh is different in function, not power. He just made shaped and presented a belief system.

Go and create a separate CRT and argue for it then, currently they are considered to be different so till you can combine them, my point stands

 

[Deagonx]

Nil was, at the beginning. Then some clockwork patterns came

So Nil has time, yes.

They don't mention "Yahweh" either, and the burden of proof is on you

To prove what? That "the Presence" is "the Presence?"

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Sure, but my question is, why does all of creation refer to Map?

He left answered it, I answer it, and the other did. Is of equivalence since the map logic doesn't exist in Vertigo

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Go and create a separate CRT and argue for it then, currently they are considered to be different so till you can combine them, my point stands

I did you can check the Presence(Yahweh) revision which has all the info and scan. It should help you.

 

[Transcending]

I did you can check the Presence(Yahweh) revision which has all the info and scan. It should help you.

You will need to get it accepted though, not just made

 

[Transcending]

So Nil has time, yes.

Did it have time when Michael was remaking?

To prove what? That "the Presence" is "the Presence?"

No, that your scans in question refer to the Divine Presence and not Yahweh. In fact, the profile directly confirms that the Presence from Lucifer comics is Yahweh

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

So Nil has time, yes.


To prove what? That "the Presence" is "the Presence?"

Presence is the form and not an entity. People don't know this.

 

[Deagonx]

Did it have time when Michael was remaking?

It doesn't really make a difference either way. My main point was in showing that it wasn't limited to the physical universes.

No, that your scans in question refer to the Divine Presence and not Yahweh. In fact, the profile directly confirms that the Presence from Lucifer comics is Yahweh

I never said my scans refer to the Divine Presence and not Yahweh.

 

[Transcending]

It doesn't really make a difference either way. My main point was in showing that it wasn't limited to the physical universes.

It does make a difference, because my point still stands that his effects didn't reach Limbo/Nil.

I never said my scans refer to the Divine Presence and not Yahweh

Then why were you bringing up The Hands, Source, etc? Can you list your key counter-arguments?

 

[Deagonx]

It does make a difference, because my point still stands that his effects didn't reach Limbo/Nil.

I have no reason to think that they didn't, and since the Presence's creation encompasses the Source Wall which surround Nil and Limbo, it seems logical to include them as well.

Then why were you bringing up The Hands, Source, etc? Can you list your key counter-arguments?

Because the Presence scales to them, and Lucifer scales to the Presence.

 

[Transcending]

Because the Presence scales to them, and Lucifer scales to the Presence.

But Yahweh doesn't scale to them. Not only does the profile equate Divine Presence with the Source, but your Lucifer scaling to Presence scales are based on Yahweh.

I have no reason to think that they didn't, and since the Presence's creation encompasses the Source Wall which surround Nil and Limbo, it seems logical to include them as well.

The Source Wall also exists beyond time though. If none of the three realms had time there's no reason to assume Michael did anything.

 

[Deagonx]

But Yahweh doesn't scale to them. Not only does the profile equate Divine Presence with the Source, but your Lucifer scaling to Presence scales are based on Yahweh.

I don't agree, at all.

The Source Wall also exists beyond time though.

And yet is clearly present in the Presence's creation.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

But Yahweh doesn't scale to them. Not only does the profile equate Divine Presence with the Source, but your Lucifer scaling to Presence scales are based on Yahweh.

The profile idea was evident since Grant Morrsion which reintegrate the idea of the Creator being Kirby Lore Source, Overvoid, God. Evident that the Source never truly had a consistent origin and thus not a good point to bring.

The Source Wall also exists beyond time though. If none of the three realms had time there's no reason to assume Michael did anything.

Time isn't just what Michael renewed. This point shouldn't be repeated.

 

[Transcending]

I don't agree, at all.

I am just going by what's currently accepted

The Source Wall is not a part of the Presence's creation, but even if it was, that would just mean Michael's affects didn't reach that high.

 

[Transcending]

The profile idea was evident since Grant Morrsion which reintegrate the idea of the Creator being Kirby Lore Source, Overvoid, God. Evident that the Source never truly had a consistent origin and thus not a good point to bring.

I don't know why you are showing this to me or in this thread. As I said before, you can make a separate CRT and get it accepted. Bringing this up without getting it accepted isn't going to do you any good.

Time isn't just what Michael renewed. This point shouldn't be repeated.

Yes, he remade atoms, but we already went over how Limbo and Nil don't have atoms.

 

[Deagonx]

I am just going by what's currently accepted

It's also currently accepted that these characters are 1-A. The point of a CRT is to challenge what is currently accepted. You can't wall off other topics that tie into yours simply because your argument relies on whats in certain profiles, while also arguing that several profiles are currently wrong.

The Source Wall is not a part of the Presence's creation, but even if it was, that would just mean Michael's affects didn't reach that high.

It is, Lucifer literally went past the Source Wall in his storyline and that was within the Presence's creation. Lucifer did not leave creation until he created the door. Michael's effects encompassed all of creation.

Yes, he remade atoms, but we already went over how Limbo and Nil don't have atoms.

And we also went over how his effects encompassed realms that also don't have atoms.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I don't know why you are showing this to me or in this thread. As I said before, you can make a separate CRT and get it accepted. Bringing this up without getting it accepted isn't going to do you any good.

This is evident since the Source origin was never truly explored other than during 4th World when Jack Kirby made the Source the “Source” with addition of Synder's interpretation of the “Source of All Things.” I think you misunderstood what I said. Even then Yahweh is equated to the Presence which is of the Source his boundless form the Divine Presence which is still equal to Yahweh in power. The scope is the only difference.

Yes, he remade atoms, but we already went over how Limbo and Nil don't have atoms.

As we clearly already mentioned, the Atoms we're for the physical parts of Creation not everyone.

 

[Tarang123]

Sure, but my question is, why does all of creation refer to Map?

Because that's what "all of creation" would mean assuming that we use a composite cosmology?

 

[Beyond_transcending]

Because that's what "all of creation" would mean assuming that we use a composite cosmology?

Not necessarily. "All of creation" has referred to Multiverse, which has been referred as Orrery.

 

[Tarang123]

Not necessarily. "All of creation" has referred to Multiverse, which has been referred as Orrery.

Yes, but that's nitpicking. All of creation would refer to every aspect of creation, which would refer to the entire map by default. Yes, the orrery is a multiverse and has been referred to as such, and all of creation would encompass a multiverse so it could be referred to as such, but by nature it's every aspect of creation. In a composite cosmology with the map, it would include the entire map.

 

[Deagonx]

We also know in the case of Michael that it extends to the Sphere, so any argument that it's restricted to the Orrery is already wrong.

 

[Beyond_transcending]

Yes, but that's nitpicking. All of creation would refer to every aspect of creation, which would refer to the entire map by default. Yes, the orrery is a multiverse and has been referred to as such, and all of creation would encompass a multiverse so it could be referred to as such, but by nature it's every aspect of creation. In a composite cosmology with the map, it would include the entire map.

My point is, what you're saying isn't necessarily true. "Composite cosmology" dunno what's that, but Orrery has been referred as all of creation as well. Not to mention, Dreaming is beyond creation and it's a part of Sphere of Gods.