Lucifer, Dream, and Michael downgrade

[Beyond_transcending]

this is overkill

No.

 

[Transcending]

Good points @Beyond_transcending. You are being toxic for no reason @Deagonx. I don't know if it's to make an illusion that your points are impressive via "roasting"(when you haven't made actual points) or to agitate me to insult you back and get me blocked. From what I am seeing, the cause for this seems to be because you lack actual evidence, unless you are doing it for no reason, which would be a terrible way to debate. Honestly, I don't care, the fact you have to insult me only proves my points.

A friendly advice though, focusing on the actual points would be a better way to get people to agree with you.

 

[Deagonx]

Saying that an argument is nonsense is not a personal insult, and taking it as one is a choice on your part.

And saying things like "well you must lack evidence which is why you are just saying it's nonsense!" is exactly the kind of thing I am referring to when I talked about "declaring yourself the winner."

It is not everyone else's job to read the source material for you. Constantly making incorrect statements, and demanding everyone else prove you wrong until they're tired or bored, doesn't actually mean you've made a good argument.

Anyone who says with a straight face that it's "the supercelestials just appeared out of nowhere and started working for the Presence, he probably didn't create them" isn't trying to have a reasonable discussion. Anyone who says things like "well maybe the Source is weaker than the Hands, the way a human can be weaker than his boss at work!" Is not trying to have a reasonable discussion.

It's just not worth anyone's time to engage with something like that, because you're not arguing in good faith.

 

[Xearsay]

They’re not asking you to read the comic for them. They’re asking you to provide evidence for your claims. Something you’re clearly refusing to do.

 

[Deagonx]

They’re not asking you to read the comic for them.

They absolutely are. Asking for evidence of a specific claim is one thing. Saying "Perpetua was trying to impress the Source with how powerful she was" and claiming its my responsibility to demonstrate why that's complete nonsense is asking me to read the comic for them.

And even if I do, which I did, there will simply be another bad take lined up, and another after that, until I get bored and they say "see! He has no evidence!!!" Which was the goal in the first place.

Any argument that is so bad that I feel the need to just dismiss it is probably not going to be received well by any of the staff, who have been reasonable in my experience. On the off chance any of them find it persuasive, then I'll just have the conversation with them.

 

[Transcending]

Saying that an argument is nonsense is not a personal insult, and taking it as one is a choice on your part.

You said far more than simply call it nonsense.

And saying things like "well you must lack evidence which is why you are just saying it's nonsense!" is exactly the kind of thing I am referring to when I talked about "declaring yourself the winner."

How does that equate to declaring myself as the winner? I don't even believe winners exist in this kind of debates without concession.

It is not everyone else's job to read the source material for you

It is also not everyone else's job to make claims in my CRTs that they cannot prove.

Anyone who says with a straight face that it's "the supercelestials just appeared out of nowhere and started working for the Presence, he probably didn't create them" isn't trying to have a reasonable discussion.

You are oversimplifying my argument, and even then, it's nowhere close to being right.

It's just not worth anyone's time to engage with something like that, because you're not arguing in good faith.

Asking for proof equals to arguing in bad faith now? I would argue making claims you cannot prove, and then trying to force them into acceptance is arguing in far more bad faith.

 

[Transcending]

Also in your recent posts you haven't even addressed any main argument

 

[Hasty12345]

Providing scans for claims is the backbone of this community…

 

[Beyond_transcending]

Providing scans for claims is the backbone of this community…

Exactly.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Providing scans for claims is the backbone of this community…

The argument reading this is repeated of the same point addressed by the claim maker. The topic was already felled out with just scaling up the character based on interpretation of what was seen in the comics. This is a persona non grata for the claim since the opposition is responding to it.

Both sides need more evidence but Deagonx has answered the question at hand and the other side is accused based on what he “interprets” as when asked in that same manner has not only based on “it should be” rather than it is.

When asked the purpose of the functionary of Supercelestial it was answered.

When ask if the Creation scaled to the Source Wall, one only claims that Source Wall has level, without concise evidence to support that the “small” section was the Presence rather than disapproving why he didn't create the outer one in the Map. There's no evidence it was lower level, so it was never responded to in the same manner.


This is stemming from what “evidence is at hand” to disprove especially given the claim doesn't make sense since the scan can be disproved of the data. It's a clear distinction of downplay or misinterpretation of the understanding of the Vertigo Universe.

All the argument is calling fallacy to anything dismming a point in the same ironic way it was repeated and applied to one that calls it. They keep repeating the point that Deagon had already addressed read it and see the pattern. Given the fact these two are in sync to making an argument feed by each other. It's repeating the same claim and they haven't had the concise evidence in the same manner of accusing the opposition that is responding to the point. They need to add a point to dismiss the counter-argument rather than remaking the same claim reverting the topic to being a loop of the same sentences.

 

[Deagonx]

Asking for proof equals to arguing in bad faith now?

This is the kind of thing I'm referring to. You're completely misrepresenting what I said.

Providing scans for claims is the backbone of this community…

Sure, so I'll wait for some scans that say only half of the Source Wall is in the Presence's creation, scans that says the Supercelestials came into existence by themselves from nothing, scans that say that Lucifer, Michael, and Dream weren't aware of anything above the Sphere of the Gods, scans that say the Hands are stronger than the Source, et cetera et cetera.

Numerous scans, in fact, have been provided for a lot of the main claims. We've proven the Source Wall is part of the Presence's creation, we've proven that Destiny's book records the entire multiverse, we've proven that the Presence is more powerful than Supercelestials, that Perpetua says the Source is where she gets her power, et cetera, et cetera.

My unwillingness to bicker endlessly does not mean I haven't proven my claims. Anyone can come up with far-fetched nonsense if they are intentionally trying to. Exploiting every instance of subtlety to assert far-fetched claims is bad-faith discussion. Like claiming the Supercelestials simply appeared out of nowhere, rather than the far more reasonable interpretation that the Source/Presence created the Supercelestials, (since they work for the Source/Presence, create multiverses on it's behalf, and receive their power to do so from the Source/Presence), and claiming that unless I provided a scan that says this explicitly, we have to treat these two claims equal, is bad-faith arguing that wastes everybody's time.

And pretending that the objection I'm making is about asking for evidence is also bad faith arguing.

 

[Beyond_transcending]

There doesn't need to evidence, it's a possibility with actual basis. Raptor created Source Wall.

 

[Transcending]

This is a complete misinterpretation of the events.

The argument reading this is repeated of the same point addressed by the claim maker. The topic was already felled out with just scaling up the character based on interpretation of what was seen in the comics. This is a persona non grata for the claim since the opposition is responding to it.

Can you word this better?

Both sides need more evidence but Deagonx has answered the question at hand and the other side is accused based on what he “interprets” as when asked in that same manner has not only based on “it should be” rather than it is.

One person saying "what I am saying is right" and another person saying "there's an equal interpretation and we take the lower one" doesn't make the former person's argument stronger. We say there are two interpretations because either possibility could happen equally, and in such a case, we take the lower interpretation.

When ask if the Creation scaled to the Source Wall, one only claims that Source Wall has level, without concise evidence to support that the “small” section was the Presence rather than disapproving why he didn't create the outer one in the Map. There's no evidence it was lower level, so it wa

There's no evidence that the full Source Wall is a part of his creation, and the wiki clearly distincts and separates the layers of the Source Wall. I proved my point with POTM's blog and an analogy, neither of which has been responded to.

This is stemming from what “evidence is at hand” to disprove especially given the claim doesn't make sense since the scan can be disproved of the data. It's a clear distinction ow lay or misinterpretation of the understanding of the Vertigo Universe.

See, this is what I am talking about. Everyone says it's a misinterpretation, misunderstanding, or sometimes willful ignorance, but when asked for proof, no one is willing.

 

[Transcending]

This is the kind of thing I'm referring to. You're completely misrepresenting what I said.

How?

Sure, so I'll wait for some scans that say only half of the Source Wall is in the Presence's creation

Don't have to, you haven't proved the entire thing is. I am claiming equal interpretation, not a truth. I only have to prove the possibility exists, and that it has a strong basis, which I already have.

scans that says the Supercelestials came into existence by themselves from nothing

How about you show scans the Presence created them? You made the positive claim.

scans that say that Lucifer, Michael, and Dream weren't aware of anything above the Sphere of the Gods

That's a negative claim. I don't have to prove it. Plus even if they were knowledgeable, your reasoning with them hasn't been proven. We asked for scans and you dodged.

Numerous scans, in fact, have been provided for a lot of the main claims

I guess zero equals to numerous these days?

We've proven the Source Wall is part of the Presence's creation,

And we have proven it's just as possible, if not more possible, for only a part to be there.

we've proven that Destiny's book contains the entire multiverse,

Cap

that Perpetua says the Source is where she gets her power

No, you have only proven the Source is from whom Perpetua got her raw materials to create the Multiverse, which I never disagreed with in the first place. It was explicitly stated that Perpetua took the raw materials for the Multiverse from the Source, but shaped them into a Multiverse with her own powers.

Like claiming the Supercelestials simply appeared out of nowhere, rather than the far more reasonable interpretation that the Source/Presence created the Supercelestials, (since they work for the Source/Presence, create multiverses on it's behalf, and receive their power to do so from the Source/Presence),

I countered this and you accused me of false equivalency and ignoring the context, without explaining your reasoning for them.

 

[Deagonx]

See, this is what I am talking about. Everyone says it's a misinterpretation, misunderstanding, or sometimes willful ignorance, but when asked for proof, no one is willing.

This is not at all what the situation is. We have proven things over and over again with different claims, to the point of tedium, and as soon as one is proven you jump to another nonsense interpretation and once again declare that it everyone else's job to explain it to you.

There's no way for a reasonable person to read the scan with Perpetua talking about "the Source of her power" and interpret it as her trying to "impress the Source with how strong she was." She was literally supposed to let herself die after making the multiverse and let her energy return to the Source. Her whole goal was to create an army to fight off the Source's servants. She never said she wanted to impress him with her strength. She was clearly talking about pleasing the Source with a "unique and beautiful" multiverse. That is what I mean by "willful ignorance." You would have to literally try to get it wrong to arrive at a conclusion like that.

You shouldn't need things like that explained to you. You should have already read the comic and know these things, and interpret it in a reasonable way, so we can focus on discussing situations with actual ambiguity rather than you creating ambiguity where there isn't any. Constantly offering nonsensical interpretations and then saying "if you don't explain this to me in excruciating detail, then you haven't met the burden of proof!" or some such nonsense, is a waste of everyone's time.

If I refused to explain Perpetua's "source of our power" quote, does that make me wrong? Does it make you right? No, not at all. I was right before I explained it to you, and you were wrong before I explained it to you. The reason I am refusing to engage with those types of arguments ad nauseum is because CRTs only get approved by staff consensus, and since the staff are not going to engage in the same kind of bad faith arguing that you are, it's failure is a foregone conclusion.

No one can stop you from creating bad takes of every scan you get your hands on, claiming it's everyone else's job to explain why it's a bad take, and then declaring yourself the winner when they get tired of it. But that doesn't mean the CRT will get approved, and it certainly doesn't mean you're right.

 

[Transcending]

This is not at all what the situation is. We have proven things over and over again with different claims, to the point of tedium, and as soon as one is proven you jump to another nonsense interpretation and once again declare that it everyone else's job to explain it to you.

It doesn't matter if it's nonsense or not, if you make a claim, you have to prove it. If you don't want to, why are you making it in the first place?

And no, we don't "jump" to more "nonsense" when one such kind of argument has been debunked, we don't address arguments one-by-one, we address them together.

and then declaring yourself the winner when they get tired of it.

More false accusations. No one's forcing you to make claims you can't prove.

 

[Deagonx]

Nobody "has to" do anything simply because you demand it. Again, you are willfully misunderstanding the point and trying to pretend this is about an unwillingness to prove claims or provide evidence, rather than an unwillingness to engage with bad faith arguing and willful ignorance of the storylines.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Can you word this better?

It is clear and concise but if you wish a simplified synonymous version of this. It summed up as falling from what the topic is about “downgrade” is now prelavent in just downscaling a character. Since the events of Vertigo aren't linked thus making assumption based on what is seen as misinterpretation of the scans you provide with some subside to a reasonable reason but that's without looking at it from the perspective of how it is written.

Ex: Time and Space are extensions of his Will isn't 1-A, but this is Vertigo and how it's interpreted is different since not all “Time” is the same. I do agree it's not 1-A, but it's higher than given credit for.

To explain it read the comics if your are referring #20 of Lucifer there are more explanation to how this such as abstract concept like Time is defined unlike that of DC

I’m sure you can understand this.

One person saying "what I am saying is right" and another person saying "there's an equal interpretation and we take the lower one" doesn't make the former person's argument stronger. We say there are two interpretations because either possibility could happen equally, and in such a case, we take the lower interpretation.

(“What I am saying is right”) This especially isn't an argument since with evidence it provides an example of just partial indicative reasoning for what could be when providing evidence.

Which brings your second point I addressing this:
("there's an equal interpretation and we take the lower one") What specifically defines this as illogical is when making interpretation you make it on the base claim of what was given rather than what was collected to understand that notion of context.

If you are referring to Deagon on the first basis claim, then your point is dismissed as our proven facts can be dismissive of that same point. Thus creating a fallacy. If you're being even-handed on this and this refers to one side in the first claim and the second then it doesn't prove anything of your claim because of what you “interpret” as to what is based on evidence. Providing a basis claim without the regal context of the story is as one would say “Nothing is if not proven correct.”

I prefer you make your point on the evidence on your claim and readdress your point to Deagon rebuttal thus making your claim based on those evidence given, and Deagon would have to disprove and this will look better for you or else you're reading the same point.

There's no evidence that the full Source Wall is a part of his creation

His Creation is reference to the Vertigo story that made him stabilize all logic and ideas as nothing was left out. (Lucifer #68-69). This is evident enough since he doesn't leave variables out because all possibilities were already predetermined.

The real question here is how you dismiss this based on how it was interpreted on evidence that suggests otherwise.

Thus, choose your point of “Presence creating a smaller section”(Need evidence of this rather than what you interpret with Source Wall level at each dimensional hierarchy) or The Presence is “not that power to create it based on the Cosmic Raptor showing” (Working on behalf of the Source sent by the Judges using Perpetua to force her into the Wall that came into existence, evident that if he was created by the Source anything he does refers back to him). You need a lot more concise view on this or your claims are without reasonable prejudice towards a character based on fallible points.

and the wiki clearly distincts and separates the layers of the Source Wall.

Does this answer to why the Presence didn't? Simply to assume he made a lesser layer? If so where is this evidence based on? This needed to be answered long ago without the point of saying it because Source Wall has different layers and the Presence didn't. To add the only made smaller section. Need more to what you're referring to about what The Presence contributed, which I suggest you show to disapprove of the rebuttal Deagon made. Or else it is anyone's views how they interpret this claim.

I proved my point with POTM's blog and an analogy

The analogy must be concise to the context of set given notion or else this is a “red herring” the actual way to use the word you and your friend keep repeating. Let us see this “blog” that shows this if not your adding points that do not contribute to anything recollective of premise of that same claim you made.

See, this is what I am talking about. Everyone says it's a misinterpretation, misunderstanding, or sometimes willful ignorance, but when asked for proof, no one is willing.

In this same manner apply to you. If you are to have this view then this argument should be closed. Evidence provided isn't a necessity when making that base claim that already shows it. Unless you want to spoon-feed the info as if we could not see you either read it or you make the point addressing the rebuttal and work from there. There really is no proof of the Presence “creating a lesser” so this hypocrisy lies on you.

 

[Transcending]

Nobody "has to" do anything simply because you demand it.

Of course, they are free to concede.

Again, you are willfully misunderstanding the point and trying to pretend this is about an unwillingness to prove claims or provide evidence, rather than an unwillingness to engage with bad faith arguing and willful ignorance of the storylines.

I don't care if you think I argue in bad faith or if I willfully ignore the storyline. If you make a claim you have to be willing to prove it.

 

[Deagonx]

Of course, they are free to concede.

If you make a claim you have to be willing to prove it.

This is exactly the issue. The options are not "satisfy your personal demands" or "concede the argument." You are imagining arbitrary rules for the discussion which don't exact.

Here's the actual rule: "Make an argument that is convincing and reasonable to staff members who are knowledgeable about the verse." Believe it or not, constantly coming up with bad-faith takes likes "the Supercelestials probably created themselves, they weren't created by the deity they work for" is not going to convince anyone. Demanding they need to "prove" the Source/Presence created the race of beings that it has go around creating multiverses, and saying they have to concede if they don't, will not magically convince users who know better.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

This is exactly the issue. The options are not "satisfy your personal demands" or "concede the argument." You are imagining arbitrary rules for the discussion which don't exact.

Here's the actual rule: "Make an argument that is convincing and reasonable to staff members who are knowledgeable about the verse." Believe it or not, constantly coming up with bad-faith takes likes "the Supercelestials probably created themselves, they weren't created by the deity they work for" is not going to convince anyone. Demanding they need to "prove" the Source/Presence created the race of beings that it has go around creating multiverses, and saying they have to concede if they don't, will not magically convince users who know better.

This should be common sense. I don't know any angle myself of disapprove this point. This is the underline basis we all have to follow and should have been since the beginning. Adding another topic to add upon this argument is not necessary.

This shouldn't be explained this should be understood premise.

 

[Transcending]

This is exactly the issue. The options are not "satisfy your personal demands" or "concede the argument." You are imagining arbitrary rules for the discussion which don't exact.

They are not my personal demands, they are how the wiki functions. When you make a claim, you have to prove it, that's the most fundamental and basic thing in debating.

Here's the actual rule: "Make an argument that is convincing and reasonable to staff members who are knowledgeable about the verse." Believe it or not, constantly coming up with bad-faith takes likes "the Supercelestials probably created themselves, they weren't created by the deity they work for" is not going to convince anyone.

Firstly, I am not sure why you are always bringing this up. It's not even related to the main CRT. Secondly, you literally just said my counter was nonsensical, false equivalent, and an ignorance of the context. You never addressed it.

 

[Deagonx]

They are not my personal demands, they are how the wiki functions. When you make a claim, you have to prove it, that's the most fundamental and basic thing in debating.

The wiki functions based on staff consensus, that's it.

Firstly, I am not sure why you are always bringing this up

Because it's an incredible example of the kind of silliness you are demanding everyone else has to prove wrong.

Secondly, you literally just said my counter was nonsensical, false equivalent, and an ignorance of the context. You never addressed it.

Yes. That's my point. That wasn't the first claim you made like that. I am not interested in personally correcting every single bad take you have about DC. It's tedious and these arguments aren't likely to be accepted either way.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

The wiki functions based on staff consensus, that's it.

Because it's an incredible example of the kind of silliness you are demanding everyone else has to prove wrong.


Yes. That's my point. That wasn't the first claim you made like that. I am not interested in personally correcting every single bad take you have about DC. It's tedious and these arguments aren't likely to be accepted either way.

I think it better to do and nitpick to show the evidence, if not he will repeat the same point till someone concede. Arguments should never be conceded until all basis were covered, I know it's tedious but his asking for the evidence might as well do it. In that same manner, he would have to dismiss the point, so it is better, or else the same things will repeat. If need be a Staff can oversee this instead and I'm pretty sure you follow the guideline as such.

 

[Deagonx]

I'm just going to wait until a staff member takes interest in the thread and see what their take is on it. Bad faith arguing makes a discussion an incredible slog, and this thread has had some particularly egregious instances of it, so I'm inclined to stop engaging with the argument unless a staff member wants me to explain my position.

 

[Transcending]

The wiki functions based on staff consensus, that's it.

Evidence is literally the foundation stone of the wiki.

Because it's an incredible example of the kind of silliness you are demanding everyone else has to prove wrong.

You claimed the Presence created them, disagreeing with you isn't silly, it's the logical approach considering your lack of evidence.

Yes. That's my point. That wasn't the first claim you made like that. I am not interested in personally correcting every single bad take you have about DC. It's tedious and these arguments aren't likely to be accepted either way.

In that case you risk making Argument from Incredulity.

 

[Deagonx]

Evidence is literally the foundation stone of the wiki.

I don't know what a "foundation stone" is, but I can confidently say that staff consensus is how CRTs are approved or rejected, not whatever arbitrary debating rules you have imagined in your head, nor does naming fallacies you read about on wikipedia make you correct when you're saying something wrong.

disagreeing with you isn't silly,

Claiming that a race of "super celestials" who go around creating multiverses on behalf of the Presence "probably created themselves" rather than having been created by the Presence himself is absolutely silly.

 

[Beyond_transcending]

Ex: Time and Space are extensions of his Will isn't 1-A, but this is Vertigo and how it's interpreted is different since not all “Time” is the same. I do agree it's not 1-A, but it's higher than given credit for.

Why would it being Vertigo change anything and why exactly is it interpreted differently? Please Elaborate.

To explain it read the comics if your are referring #20 of Lucifer there are more explanation to how this such as abstract concept like Time is defined unlike that of DC

What do you mean?

If you are referring to Deagon on the first basis claim, then your point is dismissed as our proven facts can be dismissive of that same point. Thus creating a fallacy. If you're being even-handed on this and this refers to one side in the first claim and the second then it doesn't prove anything of your claim because of what you “interpret” as to what is based on evidence. Providing a basis claim without the regal context of the story is as one would say “Nothing is if not proven correct.”

What "Proven facts"? Facts are facts and truths that can't be interpreted differently. Deagon said Source likely created Hands because they work for it, is that a fact? No, just an assumption. Deagon also said Presence or his sons created Source Walls, but Transcending proved there are different levels of Source Walls, and there's no reason to assume that they created the highest Source Wall, especially since we know that it was Raptor that created Source Wall. None of that was facts.
Except we don't need evidence, equal interpretation is a thing. Interpretation with actual basis > interpretation without basis.

His Creation is reference to the Vertigo story that made him stabilize all logic and ideas as nothing was left out. (Lucifer #68-69). This is evident enough since he doesn't leave variables out because all possibilities were already predetermined.

OK, why does this mean he created full Source Wall?

The real question here is how you dismiss this based on how it was interpreted on evidence that suggests otherwise.

There's nothing that suggest that they created full Source Wall

Thus, choose your point of “Presence creating a smaller section”(Need evidence of this rather than what you interpret with Source Wall level at each dimensional hierarchy) or The Presence is “not that power to create it based on the Cosmic Raptor showing” (Working on behalf of the Source sent by the Judges using Perpetua to force her into the Wall that came into existence, evident that if he was created by the Source anything he does refers back to him). You need a lot more concise view on this or your claims are without reasonable prejudice towards a character based on fallible points.

Again, we don't need evidence, Transcending already proved there are different levels of Source Wall's and even the wiki acknowledges this. Equal interpretation exist, and our interpretation at least has actual basis unlike you guys.

Does this answer to why the Presence didn't? Simply to assume he made a lesser layer? If so where is this evidence based on? This needed to be answered long ago without the point of saying it because Source Wall has different layers and the Presence didn't. To add the only made smaller section. Need more to what you're referring to about what The Presence contributed, which I suggest you show to disapprove of the rebuttal Deagon made. Or else it is anyone's views how they interpret this claim.

In equal interpretation, you don't need evidence. If there's 2 interpretation, we take lower one. But even ignoring the "we take lower interpretation" part, our interpretation has basis like Raptor creating Wall, and realms like Inizami's and Dreaming being beyond creation despite being a part of Sphere of Gods.

The analogy must be concise to the context of set given notion or else this is a “red herring” the actual way to use the word you and your friend keep repeating. Let us see this “blog” that shows this if not your adding points that do not contribute to anything recollective of premise of that same claim you made.

How is it not concise and how does it follow the context? Elaborate.

In this same manner apply to you. If you are to have this view then this argument should be closed. Evidence provided isn't a necessity when making that base claim that already shows it. Unless you want to spoon-feed the info as if we could not see you either read it or you make the point addressing the rebuttal and work from there. There really is no proof of the Presence “creating a lesser” so this hypocrisy lies on you.

There's no proof that he created higher one either. It's not hypocrisy on his part, it's Deagon who said that he doesn't need to prove because what Transcending said was "nonsense" to him without any reason.

 

[Transcending]

I don't know what a "foundation stone" is

It's a term from Final Crisis, where the New Earth was described as a foundation stone. What this means is that evidence is what supports the wiki, and without it, the wiki wouldn't be able to function properly.

but I can confidently say that staff consensus is how CRTs are approved or rejected, not whatever arbitrary debating rules you have imagined in your head

Staff consensus does decide CRTs, but good staff members make their opinion based on the evidence and not their personal opinion.

nor does naming fallacies you read about on wikipedia make you correct when you're saying something wrong.

Most of the fallacies I have mentioned exists in this wiki's own Fallacies page.

Claiming that a race of "super celestials" who go around creating multiverses on behalf of the Presence "probably created themselves" rather than having been created by the Presence himself is absolutely silly.

I countered this with Jason Momoa. Working for someone doesn't equate to being created by them.

 

[Deagonx]

What this means is that evidence is what supports the wiki, and without it, the wiki wouldn't be able to function properly.

Staff consensus does decide CRTs, but good staff members make their opinion based on the evidence and not their personal opinion.

Your opinion on how the wiki works or what "good staff members" should do really doesn't change anything Your argument has to be persuasive and reasonable to the staff, not simply satisfy your personal rules for how a debate should work.

I countered this with Jason Momoa. Working for someone doesn't equate to being created by them.

Yes, I recall, you argued that because humans can have bodyguards who are stronger than them, it's possible that the Source/Presence is neither stronger than nor responsible for creating the race of multiverse-creating super celestials who revere the Source as their deity, literally die carrying out it's orders (with Perpetua being the sole rebel), act based upon it's will and judgment, and who is literally identified as being the Source of their power, and from whom they receive the materials and energy needed to create the infinite multiverses in the Greater Omniverse, which the Source is at the center of. In fact, you even said the Super celestials probably created themselves.

That's exactly the kind of argument that I am not even interested in engaging with. I will just wait for the staff to read it and they can make their assessment.

 

[Transcending]

Your opinion on how the wiki works or what "good staff members" should do really doesn't change anything Your argument has to be persuasive and reasonable to the staff, not simply satisfy your personal rules for how a debate should work.

They are not my personal rules, they are the actual rules. Working without focusing on evidence goes against what the wiki itself says(with stuff like Argument from Incredulity). If my argument has evidence, it's valid. If yours doesn't, it's invalid. Plain as that.

Yes, I recall, you argued that because humans can have bodyguards who are stronger than them, it's possible that the Source/Presence is neither stronger

You are confusing me with @Beyond_transcending

than nor responsible for creating the race of multiverse-creating super celestials who revere the Source as their deity

The Monitor Brothers viewed the Source as their deity, not The Hands, who are actually the Judges of the Source. Plus considering someone a deity doesn't mean that person created you, the Monitor Brothers being fine examples.

literally die carrying out it's orders (with Perpetua being the sole rebel

You do realize a lot of The Hands came in Death Metal #7? Alive and well?

act based upon it's will and judgment

So if I follow the will and judgement of the Supreme Court, I was created by them?

and who is literally identified as being the Source of their power

Never stated, they only got the raw materials for the Multiverse from the Source. It was shaped into existence by The Hands' own powers.

In fact, you even said the Super celestials probably created themselves.

It's certainly possible. The Source was never stated to be their creator, and your arguments are Non-Sequiturs. The exact origin of the Hands haven't been revealed, but I am saying it's possible because lots of other characters have come into existence without a creator, the Source itself being an example.

 

[Deagonx]

If my argument has evidence, it's valid. If yours doesn't, it's invalid.

Once again, making up rules about how you think arguments should work does not mean a CRT is correct nor that it needs to be approved simply because you don't think I've followed your rules. It needs to be considered persuasive and accurate by knowledgeable staff members. That is how this works.

Plus considering someone a deity doesn't mean that person created you, the Monitor Brothers being fine examples.
You do realize a lot of The Hands came in Death Metal #7? Alive and well?
So if I follow the will and judgement of the Supreme Court, I was created by them?
Never stated, they only got the raw materials for the Multiverse from the Source. It was shaped into existence by The Hands' own powers.
It's certainly possible. The Source was never stated to be their creator, and your arguments are Non-Sequiturs. The exact origin of the Hands haven't been revealed, but I am saying it's possible because lots of other characters have come into existence without a creator, the Source itself being an example.

Yep, exactly the kind of bad-faith silliness that I am not interested in dealing with. I'll wait for a staff member to offer their input.

 

[Transcending]

At this point I am not even gonna bother responding, you are just repeating yourselves(I am arguing in bad faith, creating rules, etc) without actually addressing my points. People can see the blatant Argument from Incredulity for themselves

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Why would it being Vertigo change anything and why exactly is it interpreted differently? Please Elaborate.

Vertigo writes differently from what DC does and “we” know this. The first part is addressed.

As for Time refers to the abstract concept, the flow of events, the epoch of stages in life, or the being itself. The whole context to that feat is Lucifer can use any material no matter how small to create this. To enact Time in which exist in temporal dimension, to let Time move in the same logic it usually does, or to let logic play out in the manner of how Time always flows rather than simultaneously like that of the Void. Enacting every logic of how Time works in the Totality of Yahweh Creations.

Ex: He could make things decelerate while not even being created. Could create beings of Time before Time. There are no limits to the conceptual manipulation Lucifer has and his manipulation extends to all powers. Not to mention he made logic of Time and Space possible.

What do you mean?

Explain up above as the motifs of my statements regarding how Time is not always defined the same in the context of story, which should be easily seen. You can get more examples by reading the story in full retrospect.

What "Proven facts"? Facts are facts and truths that can't be interpreted differently.

I had to make sure what you said was what I mentioned but I realize the confusion. Here is what I said and please read this properly

“Your” (This is localized by your set point of view on your interpretation of it) point as “your”(Again referring to a set view of based objective but of the excogitate of your view applied to your claim) proven facts can be dismissive of that same point.

This refers to how your view on it can be interpreted differently as to say making a claim to object the other side based no coherent facts can be addressed the same as you if not addressed why by the supporting party from where your reference point is lied(Comics).

This literally in simple terms mean you don't dismiss a point by inserting a “possibility” made not of solid proof. Accusing the opposition of this to dismiss their point can also dismiss your point. I don't see why you can't understand that.

Deagon said Source likely created Hands because they work for it, is that a fact?

I think you're being intentional subtle to understand what I said. Deagon never said his was fact but his countercharge was to look at the premise of “logic” of how the story is good. In your retort of that same manner of “possibility” to let Supercelestail spawn on their own. The logic first is needed for possibilities of actuality to apply. This is the equivalent of Rule of Law for arguments.

Deagon also said Presence or his sons created Source Walls, but Transcending proved there are different levels of Source Walls, and there's no reason to assume that they created the highest Source Wall, especially since we know that it was Raptor that created Source Wall.

The possibility of the Vertigo Universe using the 3 main powerhouses to create the Source Wall is more logical than just theory because each Creation is separate from the others. The Void is the only thing that separates them, thus making the equivalent of the Map isn't outside the realm of “possibilities” and is more logical than saying otherwise. Or else “all-encompassing or the Totality would be indicative of that.

Since Synder never truly denies the work of Niel or Carey it can be reasonably put. The Raptor legit states this “prison” we won't know if this meant he created. Since he said the events would play out as the Presence would remake it thus can put. They know of these events and they could create the prison that the Raptor locked her in plus to say Raptor is a functionary of greater power, The Presence could replicate the feat again relating to the idea.

None of that were facts.

I don't know where you ever think an argument of facts were regarded here since we all here basing it off comics interjection our viewpoint to explain what is.

Except we don't need evidence, equal interpretation is a thing. Interpretation with actual basis > interpretation without basis.

Deagon claim is based on logic. Anything created has an origin except the Void. The Presence is the boss and they serves as agents for him and use his power to create the Multiverse. This is reasonable to assume he also created them. That is the basis of interpretation.

Transcending claim is based on possibilities. Assuming that we take Supercelestial to use the Greater Omniverse to fill, they appear out of the blue in the response of “something can naturally appears.” This has some problems, the very only eternal thing is the Darkness, something popping up is a reference point of logical viewpoint that creates those possibilities because when making it purely of the possibilities it never truly sticks. Perpetua appearing out of nowhere would need proof.

OK, why does this mean he created full Source Wall?

In Vertigo yes and with the logic of that. We can cynosure this as not out of possibilities. Since the context of the creation of the Source Wall is in question. Just because it appears during JL storyline with the Raptor.

If you were to believe the Raptor made it, then this answer the idea the Presence can as his superior. Given the fact if the interview was right then he made Michael and Lucifer to create everything else as his basis of Power and Will. We don't explicitly see when it was created just used by the Raptor to enclose Perpetua and by that the Presence creating it and being put to use is reasonable justifcation and not flat-out contradiction to headcanon. I'm pretty sure you see the logic in this.

Again, we don't need evidence, Transcending already proved there are different levels of Source Wall's and even the wiki acknowledges this.

We didn't deny this, but the point was a lesser Source being made by the Presence is the claim to be dismiss of no evidence to prove this point. Not to mention he said there was, never that he proves the point that the Source has levels this the Presence must have created a “small one.” Looking at the logic outside Creation of any Creation of the Vertigo Universe is just Void, which is the purpose of the Source Wall. You see where the pattern starts playing.

Equal interpretation exist, and our interpretation at least has actual basis unlike you guys.

The exact definition of what I have to say that the other hasn't. This is invalid reasoning as this adds subjective view of this based on some solemnly claim.

In equal interpretation, you don't need evidence. If there's 2 interpretation, we take lower one.

There's already a lot of wrong with this notion. Nothing to what is given suggests or addresses your point. This is based on possibilities that don't apply with a lot of things this the interpretation doesn't equate as the evidence needed is to provide the foundation of your claim.

But even ignoring the "we take lower interpretation" part, our interpretation has basis like Raptor creating Wall, and realms like Inizami's and Dreaming being beyond creation despite being a part of Sphere of Gods.

Except on your first point is a misnomer of misguided claim and acting as it's the basis of claim to which provides evidence on nothing given those for.

Raptor imprisoned her as saying she will be imprisoned. It doesn't look like he created the Source Wall more so used it for the moment as a prison and based on this will you call it equal interpretation?

The Dreaming in Vertigo beyond it is only Darkness and Creation are only sepearted by the Void distance. There's a clear change in how things are structured using one to upscale the other to oppose the other to down scale.

How is it not concise and how does it follow the context? Elaborate.

Context - the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed.

Setting - is the time and place in which a story is told.

The focal point here is that when you compare anology make sure it has the context to be equivalent and not of just a view made from what seems convenient. The only claim here is one works for the other, the rest is not connected point.

There's no proof that he created higher one either.

Either suggest the claim of him creating a small layer is not parted thus not viable at all. It more logical he can do the former than the latter.

it's Deagon who said that he doesn't need to prove because what Transcending said was "nonsense" to him without any reason.

Read Deagon's response in full context. Rather just say “he said it was nonsense” as if there wasn’t any context to it other than calling it.

 

[Xearsay]

When ask if the Creation scaled to the Source Wall, one only claims that Source Wall has level, without concise evidence to support that the “small” section was the Presence rather than disapproving why he didn't create the outer one in the Map. There's no evidence it was lower level, so it was never responded to in the same manner.

This is moving the goal post and trying to flip the burden of proof. They already proved that the Source Wall has levels. Meaning the Presences creation containing the Source Wall doesn’t necessitate that it scales to the entire map, as it’s very much possible for the Presence’s creation to contain the Source Wall at the lower realms.

So what Transcending and Beyond Transcending were arguing was simply a valid possibility. They are under no obligation to further prove this valid possibility is the correct interpretation as that’s not what your original argument required to be addressed. The only one under a burden proof is you guys as you are the one’s claiming the Presences creation scales to the Source Wall at every level.

 

[Deagonx]

They already proved that the Source Wall has levels.

No, they haven't.

was simply a valid possibility

A "valid possibility" which directly contradicts the information we have about the Presence's creation and the book of Destiny, and one that requires several counter-intuitive leaps in logic about why the will of the Presence would be necessary to sustain the existence of only specific sections of a structure but not the structure itself, and requires assuming "the Source Wall" doesn't mean the Source Wall, just specific portions of it.

It was purely mental gymnastics to try and deny what is spelled out for us clear as day, because reality is inconvenient to the conclusion they want to draw.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

This is moving the goal post and trying to flip the burden of proof. They already proved that the Source Wall has levels.

This is readdressing the point that refers to what the Presence has made based on the claim made to suggest that he could(Deagon) so he made a lower(The Transcending duo). This can be answer with the proof from each point. For one the burden of proof would fall on the one making the points regarding the level to sanction away from who made the claim the Source has different level(no one denied this point) and thus the Presence created that(The claim made by the duo) This become their reliability to prove this against Deagon. They only said the same point as earlier “he created it on a lower section” based on little concise evidence to support this. False Dilemma of possibilities. Deagon should be responsible for debunking this notion, he at least addressed the opposition to that idea, in doing so they need proof that the Presence had only created a smaller section.

Meaning the Presences creation containing the Source Wall doesn’t necessitate that it scales to the entire map, as it’s very much possible for the Presence’s creation to contain the Source Wall at the lower realms.

I like how you said this but again this is just a possibility as everyone here only mentioned such. The proof needs to be met to abridge this idea. If they can they are providing the sufficient data to support their reasoning which quoted themselves “you need the evidence.”

So what Transcending and Beyond Transcending were arguing was simply a valid possibility.

This only goes so far and this basis again undermines the contextual info we can correlate to what happen. Thus not efficient to boost the claim as to say it just a “possibility.”

Here's a quote that you can connect this idea with.

People almost invariably arrive at their beliefs not on the basis of proof but on the basis of what they find attractive.

They are under no obligation to further prove this valid possibility is the correct interpretation as that’s not what your original argument required to be addressed.

The Presence creating the Source Wall was an upscaling to Vertigo Creation story made by Deagon. To make counterargument they address the opposite based on just “possibilities” unless they can have proof of it then their idea was dismiss thus never a valid possibility in the first place.

In the end it's still POV, Deagon does the logical approach, and the Duo the possibilities as just dull opposition to Deagon. No real basis claim other than just a counterargument to supplement a claim that doesn't sound to logical nor have any proof of.

The only one under a burden proof is you guys as you are the one’s claiming the Presences creation scales to the Source Wall at every level.

Scaling this is a possibility as to the idea he only created a smaller section. We're basing this of “if” the Raptor created the Source Wall that separate Multiverse from the Overvoid. Then the Presence as his direct superior can accomplish this. The idea he could can correlate to what he did, without that burden of proof. Meaning the only thing left is a rebuttal from the opposition that supports that Presence creating just a smaller section in his Creation. The claim was already made on both sides, reasoning above but the specific claim of the duo is not proof enough.

 

[Deagonx]

To make counterargument they address the opposite based on just “possibilities” unless they can have proof of it then their idea was dismiss thus never a valid possibility in the first place.

In the end it's still POV, Deagon does the logical approach, and the Duo the possibilities as just dull opposition to Deagon. No real basis claim other than just a counterargument to supplement a claim that doesn't sound to logical nor have any proof of.

Well put

 

[Swerzye29038]

Noice argument

As in "creation" we mean the Multiverse right?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

As in "creation" we mean the Multiverse right?

Yes Mike Carey has made it explicitly clear he uses Cosmos/Universe/Totality/Multiverse/Creation to be synonymous with the idea of them being all-encompassing.

His neutral about each and you can use the terms to describe each other. In his eyes saying Universe is not different from saying Multiverse. In his mind a Universe is a totality that house the same thing a Multiverse would.