Lucifer Downgrade cw

[ByArrow]

As far as I'm aware no other angel (from Lucifer show) but Lucifer appeared in the arrowverse.

Lucifer mentioned Amenadiel. And gabriel was mentioned in the arrowverse.

Just to let clear DC comics had way less inconsistencies and way better reasons to be in the same cosmology but it was split, so did Marvel.

I can't say anything about that.

Also Hell being outside the multiverse contradicts with what is shown in the Lucifer show, Goddess is incapable of travelling between her own universe and God's universe aside from a one time thing, God also said he wanted to see the Goddess's universe so his omniscience surely doesn't go that far.

As shown in the What if episode, God can reach other universes. And because the Goddess created her universe in the Void, which is completely outside of creation, it was outside the scope of God. Not because it was a different universe.

Also there is a big contradiction which is the way Lucifer describes the creation of the universe, he says that God and goddess banged and created the big bang, problem is the crises event happened before the Lucifer show begin which means the multiverse was not created by god but Specter and the paragons, so we do need to split god's profile anyways.

Lucifer began his explanation by talking about the meeting of his parents. So Lucifer was talking about the first creation. Spectre’s creation was the second creation.

 

[ByArrow]

Finepoint doesn't seem to be caming back, so how can we finish this? Also gonna need their pages unlocked.

If you don't want to wait for the feats to be calculated, we will downgrade everyone to Base Wall Level and Class 1.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Lucifer mentioned Amenadiel. And gabriel was mentioned in the arrowverse.

And Gabriel was male.

As shown in the What if episode, God can reach other universes. And because the Goddess created her universe in the Void, which is completely outside of creation, it was outside the scope of God. Not because it was a different universe.

The what if episode also created another Lucifer, so if that's cannon then it makes it even more clear that heaven and hell aren't outside space time. Either ways it's possible for other universes to exist in the same space time it doesn't really support what you think it does. And I reming you I think it was your argument even each of arrowverse's universe exist on their own spacetime, if they have problems with travelling to other spacetimes it would be even more impossible for the likes of Lucifer who supposedly choose to to earth 666 for the fun of the number. As for the void that's an argumetn you wanted to use to upgrade the arrowverse except it wasn't accepted as a real void, considering how Lucifer pretty much confirms the big bang theory it can as easily just be a universe with nothing inside. Even then God existed in that Void meaning that the goddess's universe shouldn't be outside of his reach just because it exists outside his creation. Also this contradicts Lucifer predating time so that needs to be removed too.

Lucifer began his explanation by talking about the meeting of his parents. So Lucifer was talking about the first creation. The creation of the Spectre was the second creation.

He was talking about his father and ends up saying and I quote "They fell in love. They had sex. The only trouble was they were celestial beings so that moment created the universe" He is clearly refering to the creation of the universe they are in, also clearly says "universe" so still contradicts the creation of the multiverse.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

If you don't want to wait for the feats to be calculated, we will downgrade everyone to Base Wall Level and Class 1.

I wasn't even waiting for the feats, I was waiting for the staff to agree on how to scale them.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Bump

 

[Isaacbobanka]

Also feats that should be considerd in lucifers profile:

According to Joe Henderson(writer and producer) lucifer himself sort of created hell via self-actualization:

JOE: Yeah, I think in a moment, we realized that our show was about self-actualization and how you, sort of, you create your own destiny and you know how the the angels have their own superpowers that reflect their personalities. At some point, we realized well, typically Hell is almost of Lucifer’s own making, it’s his own guilt, his own self-hatred manifest in a place, so it almost felt like his responsibility, if not his calling to take this place that was a reflection of him and have it now reflect who he has become. Once we found that, I think we were always going back to Hell, or well not always, but usually going back to hell, but then the question was, what was the journey along the way?

https://comicbookmovie.com/tv/dc/lu...ite-episodes-more-exclusive-a196637#gs.ju4aie

He (Lucifer) can also give the Flaming sword its power which can kill the Presence and is said to be the only one who can do it :

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Also feats that should be considerd in lucifers profile:

According to Joe Henderson(writer and producer) lucifer himself sort of created hell via self-actualization:

JOE: Yeah, I think in a moment, we realized that our show was about self-actualization and how you, sort of, you create your own destiny and you know how the the angels have their own superpowers that reflect their personalities. At some point, we realized well, typically Hell is almost of Lucifer’s own making, it’s his own guilt, his own self-hatred manifest in a place, so it almost felt like his responsibility, if not his calling to take this place that was a reflection of him and have it now reflect who he has become. Once we found that, I think we were always going back to Hell, or well not always, but usually going back to hell, but then the question was, what was the journey along the way?

I don't think that is consistent, the entire point of the show is that God banished Lucifer to hell, if Lucifer made Hell then where did God banish Samael to? There is also later it was stated that Hell was designed so that no demon could take up the throne of Hell which doesn't make sense since Lucifer didn't even wanted to be the ruler, and actually wanted to give it to Maze on the last season, but was waiting to become god to be able to change that rule. I guess you could make a point regarding the apearance of Hell being Lucifer's own self realization but I don't really think that's going to give him anything higher than what he already has.

https://comicbookmovie.com/tv/dc/lu...ite-episodes-more-exclusive-a196637#gs.ju4aie

He (Lucifer) can also give the Flaming sword its power which can kill the Presence and is said to be the only one who can do it :

Lucifer doesn't give the sword his power, and we know that he clearly isn't the only one who can use it, the goddess is not really a reliable source since she isn't even omniscient.

 

[Baabasaplar95]

I don't think that is consistent, the entire point of the show is that God banished Lucifer to hell, if Lucifer made Hell then where did God banish Samael to? There is also later it was stated that Hell was designed so that no demon could take up the throne of Hell which doesn't make sense since Lucifer didn't even wanted to be the ruler, and actually wanted to give it to Maze on the last season, but was waiting to become god to be able to change that rule. I guess you could make a point regarding the apearance of Hell being Lucifer's own self realization but I don't really think that's going to give him anything higher than what he already has.

We know that the words coming out of Lucifer's mouth do not match his true thoughts. Even though he thought he didn't like something, he actually thought deep down that he deserved Hell, which was why he had the devil face.

Probably, Lucifer deemed himself worthy of hell as a result of the reactions and punishment from his father as a result of the failure of his rebellion and created it that way. We have seen in the series that Lucifer achieves many powerful feats against his will, due to his true inner thoughts.

Lucifer doesn't give the sword his power, and we know that he clearly isn't the only one who can use it, the goddess is not really a reliable source since she isn't even omniscient.

She knows everything that happened until she fell into Hell, but she is unaware of the events after she was imprisoned in Hell.

Others may be able to use the sword, but the owner of the sword is Lucifer. Lucifer is the only one who can use the sword even without the necklace. He is the Lightbringer.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

We know that the words coming out of Lucifer's mouth do not match his true thoughts. Even though he thought he didn't like something, he actually thought deep down that he deserved Hell, which was why he had the devil face.

Lucifer was already angel like when he wanted to give Maze the throne of hell, so he clearly didn't thought he deserved hell at that point, important because he overcame the whole deserving hell in season 4.

Probably, Lucifer deemed himself worthy of hell as a result of the reactions and punishment from his father as a result of the failure of his rebellion and created it that way. We have seen in the series that Lucifer achieves many powerful feats against his will, due to his true inner thoughts

Again, God was stated to have banished Lucifer to hell, that wasn't Lucifer's words but the narrator in the very first episode. "Many powerful feats"? What you talking about? His strenght level doesn't really change for the entirety of the show

She knows everything that happened until she fell into Hell, but she is unaware of the events after she was imprisoned in Hell.

Considering she actually thought Jonhson was her husband god seems unlikely, anyways the particular subject we talking about is the sword which she clearly had little to no knowledge about since she didn't even knew the sword was incomplete.

Others may be able to use the sword, but the owner of the sword is Lucifer.

The sword before it's complete is the sword of the angel of death, the sword wasn't created by Lucifer clearly so he might use it but he ain't the owner.

Lucifer is the only one who can use the sword even without the necklace. He is the Lightbringer.

Wrong, he made a small flame but that wasn't the actual sword until it was complete at which point it had a full flame, we have no reason to believe that little flame had even a fraction of the sword's real power. Lightbringer is not "flamebringer".

 

[FinePoint]

Finepoint doesn't seem to be caming back, so how can we finish this? Also gonna need their pages unlocked.

I have come back. We were repainting.

I am reading now.

 

[FinePoint]

Because he cancels all his angelic abilities, all his powers and reduces himself to the level of a human being. What would be the point of he being vulnerable if he remained durability?

It would be heinous if we didn't do this scaling. The most powerful magic user in the Multiverse is 9-C, but another magic user who is not as powerful is Low 7-B. The Archangel Amenadiel, the invincible warrior of God and Heaven, who is said to be a super-powerful angel, is only 9-C, but a fallen angel is Low 7-B. Oliver Queen, who is just a normal superhuman and an incompetent magic user, is thousands of times more powerful than an archangel, the most powerful magic user in the Multiverse. That's the real heinous. This is what the OP asserts and what you accept.

Well you have to remember that though these universes are supposedly connected the actual production of the shows could not be more separate.
This is the meta reason why power levels seem to vary so wildly for seemingly little reason, and what makes our job hard.
These characters were never actually designed to scale to each other, they are self-contained characters that happen to exist in the same canon on a technicality.

Anyway, Lucifer's abilities are inconsistent, and there's a canon reason for this.
Your first question is one that's simply not answered in the show, so we have to guess.

That's why I strongly propose we give him a varies rating. We can use the less impressive calcs from the show as the low end, the most impressive parts as a high end, and a possibly for the even higher scaling.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Well you have to remember that though these universes are supposedly connected the actual production of the shows could not be more separate.
This is the meta reason why power levels seem to vary so wildly for seemingly little reason, and what makes our job hard.
These characters were never actually designed to scale to each other, they are self-contained characters that happen to exist in the same canon on a technicality.

Anyway, Lucifer's abilities are inconsistent, and there's a canon reason for this.
Your first question is one that's simply not answered in the show, so we have to guess.

That's why I strongly propose we give him a varies rating. We can use the less impressive calcs from the show as the low end, the most impressive parts as a high end, and a possibly for the even higher scaling.

ByAsura supports a "cosmology split", which would eventually put into question again. Byarrow seems to mostly have "quit" this thread too.
The "canon explaination" is not exacly that supportive either, his self realization can indeed give him new powers but his strenght shouldn't have actually changed the entire show nor is implied or stated to have changed. More importantly there is no actual reason to scale Lucifer above Sabbac, we don't have any statement that supports him being above every demon we only have a slim superiority over Maze. So even if we apply a varies now he would simple scaling above Maze up to unknown which is not exacly a varies is it?

 

[FinePoint]

ByAsura supports a "cosmology split", which would eventually put into question again. Byarrow seems to mostly have "quit" this thread too.
The "canon explaination" is not exacly that supportive either, his self realization can indeed give him new powers but his strenght shouldn't have actually changed the entire show nor is implied or stated to have changed. More importantly there is no actual reason to scale Lucifer above Sabbac, we don't have any statement that supports him being above every demon we only have a slim superiority over Maze. So even if we apply a varies now he would simple scaling above Maze up to unknown which is not exacly a varies is it?

I don't see how varying to an unknown degree isn't varying.
I also don't think it matters if the difference isn't that drastic.
For the sake of match-ups, I think it would be important to note that Lucifer's feats seem to hinge on to what degree he's self-actualizing at the time.

It also depends on how exactly we interpret his vulnerability.
If it's durability instead of hax then that would lend more credit to varying.

I lean more towards hax personally, but it's not like the show exactly tells us.

 

[FinePoint]

As for a cosmology split, I don't really see the basis for it.

There is factually not two different versions of Lucifer, one being part of the Arrowverse and one not.
There is just one who is indeed canon to the Arrowverse.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I don't see how varying to an unknown degree isn't varying.
I also don't think it matters if the difference isn't that drastic.
For the sake of match-ups, I think it would be important to note that Lucifer's feats seem to hinge on to what degree he's self-actualizing at the time.

It also depends on how exactly we interpret his vulnerability.
If it's durability instead of hax then that would lend more credit to varying.

I lean more towards hax personally, but it's not like the show exactly tells us.

Ok then, considering we don't actually have a calc right now it seems all we can do is this

Varies (His self- realization can change his power), at least Wall level (...), up to unknown.

Is this what you are agreeing with?

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

As for a cosmology split, I don't really see the basis for it.

There is factually not two different versions of Lucifer, one being part of the Arrowverse and one not.
There is just one who is indeed canon to the Arrowverse.

The problem is how Lucifer's despiction of the universe's creation contradicts what is shown in the Arrowverse among a lot other contradictions, and while I'm calling it cosmology split what I mean is make Lucifer not cannon to Arrowverse and consider the cameo during the crises as just a reference.

 

[FinePoint]

Ok then, considering we don't actually have a calc right now it seems all we can do is this

Is this what you are agreeing with?

Well I want calcs, of course, but otherwise more something like this to start:

Varies (His self- realization can change his power) from at least Wall level (...) possibly up to Mountain Level+ (scaling to other angels/demons).

Formatting not final.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Well I want calcs, of course, but otherwise more something like this to start:

Again, we don't have a reason to scale him to mountain as we have nothing supporting Lucifer being above every demon. So what will actually be the justification for mountain+?

 

[FinePoint]

The problem is how Lucifer's despiction of the universe's creation contradicts what is shown in the Arrowverse among a lot other contradictions, and while I'm calling it cosmology split what I mean is make Lucifer not cannon to Arrowverse and consider the cameo during the crises as just a reference.

I think they left it vague enough for God to fit into whatever.
He also showed he can just create and test out new universes at will, which is in line with a multiverse.

Regardless how difficult it makes it for us, I just feel like it'd be willfully ignorant to say it's not canon.

 

[FinePoint]

Again, we don't have a reason to scale him to mountain as we have nothing supporting Lucifer being above every demon. So what will actually be the justification for mountain+?

Well that's why part of my proposal is changing "likely" to "possibly."

There's no direct evidence, but I do see the logic in scaling them.

Once we have calcs, we can actually put numbers to the definite varying range.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I think they left it vague enough for God to fit into whatever.
He also showed he can just create and test out new universes at will, which is in line with a multiverse.

It's directly stated that he banging his wife created the universe and many times the show it's stated that his creation is the universe. It's not like they use words like "creation" to make it "vague" they directly use universe.

Regardless how difficult it makes it for us, I just feel like it'd be willfully ignorant to say it's not canon.

I don't see what exacly you see here, if i tried to make DC comics as part of the marvel universe because there is sometimes references to each other everyone would call me crazy. Lucifer show's connection is purely one sided, actually one, that single scene is the only thing keeping it together despite the fact that nothing in the arrowverse ever affected Lucifer, I think 2 way connection is a requirment for them to be cannon to each other.

 

[FinePoint]

It's directly stated that he banging his wife created the universe and many times the show it's stated that his creation is the universe. It's not like they use words like "creation" to make it "vague" they directly use universe.

I don't see what exacly you see here, if i tried to make DC comics as part of the marvel universe because there is sometimes references to each other everyone would call me crazy. Lucifer show's connection is purely one sided, actually one, that single scene is the only thing keeping it together despite the fact that nothing in the arrowverse ever affected Lucifer, I think 2 way connection is a requirment for them to be cannon to each other.

Hmmm...

Perhaps you are right. It is quite one-sided.
Consider me convinced.
I would support a cosmology split then.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Hmmm...

Perhaps you are right. It is quite one-sided.
Consider me convinced.
I would support a cosmology split then.

I will make a thread about that later for now I just want agreement regarding the final power level. So if you make your final scaling for Attack power, speed, lifting strenght and durability clear so that hopefully Byasura can agree to reach a consensus would be apreciated.

 

[FinePoint]

I will make a thread about that later for now I just want agreement regarding the final power level. So if you make your final scaling for Attack power, speed, lifting strenght and durability clear so that hopefully Byasura can agree to reach a consensus would be apreciated.

Well without other universes involved, I believe he'd scale mostly to things like the car, punching through walls/windows. So wall level-ish.

If we take his invulnerability as varying durability instead of hax, that'd probably scale all the way from human level to whatever that explosion was.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Well without other universes involved, I believe he'd scale mostly to things like the car, punching through walls/windows. So wall level-ish.

Yes.

If we take his invulnerability as varying durability instead of hax, that'd probably scale all the way from human level to whatever that explosion was.

It's pretty consistent that Lucifer's invulnerability is not durability, so it shouldn't scale.
But there is also speed (currently sub relativistic) crazy considering he has problems with bullets during the entirety of the show.
Lifting strength (currently class M) considering the car holding feat he would scale to the weight of the car.

 

[FinePoint]

It's pretty consistent that Lucifer's invulnerability is not durability, so it shouldn't scale.

That is what I agree with, but I believe others did not earlier.
I know he gets shot while not invulnerable, so it can't be that high.

But there is also speed (currently sub relativistic) crazy considering he has problems with bullets during the entirety of the show.

Indeed. I simply am not sure off the top of my head what his best speed feat is otherwise.

Lifting strength (currently class M) considering the car holding feat he would scale to the weight of the car.

This is the feat. This clip also lends credit to the idea that his durability is lower than his strength, since he can do this but gets wounded by a handgun in the same scene.

He doesn't fully lift the car though, he stops it from accelerating at full throttle. I genuinely don't know if that's more or less impressive.
He does lift half of it.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

That is what I agree with, but I believe others did not earlier.
I know he gets shot while not invulnerable, so it can't be that high.

I don't know if the staff knew or remembered his invulnerability in the previous CRT.

Indeed. I simply am not sure off the top of my head what his best speed feat is otherwise.

I think he might have reacted to bullets once by putting his arms in front of his face but it was meters away so it won't give such a high value that might contradict his previous problems with bullets.

This is the feat. This clip also lends credit to the idea that his durability is lower than his strength, since he can do this but gets wounded by a handgun in the same scene.

Yeah

He doesn't fully lift the car though, he stops it from accelerating at full throttle. I genuinely don't know if that's more or less impressive.
He does lift half of it.

I'm not Calc group staff but I think you have to overcome the weight of the car to stop it's movement, so if it was calced I think it would be higher than just the weight of a car.

 

[Isaacbobanka]

I don't think that is consistent, the entire point of the show is that God banished Lucifer to hell, if Lucifer made Hell then where did God banish Samael to? There is also later it was stated that Hell was designed so that no demon could take up the throne of Hell which doesn't make sense since Lucifer didn't even wanted to be the ruler, and actually wanted to give it to Maze on the last season, but was waiting to become god to be able to change that rule. I guess you could make a point regarding the apearance of Hell being Lucifer's own self realization but I don't really think that's going to give him anything higher than what he already has.

Lucifer doesn't give the sword his power, and we know that he clearly isn't the only one who can use it, the goddess is not really a reliable source since she isn't even omniscient.

All it says is that he banished him to hell not that god created hell and placed Lucifer there also him not being able to change who is ruler based on who they are is because no ordinary being can rule over both hell and the demons and him saying that he will change probably reffers to him making Maze stronger in hell so that no demon can rival her. Also him being able to freeze hell proves that hell can be whatever he wants.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

All it says is that he banished him to hell not that god created hell and placed Lucifer there also him not being able to change who is ruler based on who they are is because no ordinary being can rule over both hell and the demons and him saying that he will change probably reffers to him making Maze stronger in hell so that no demon can rival her. Also him being able to freeze hell proves that hell can be whatever he wants.

Exacly, how can god banish Lucifer to hell if it doesn't exist? I never said that god created hell, I said that hell must exist prior to Lucifer go there since God banished him there.
That's a big assumption, it was never shown or states to be in anyway related to power, if something Charlie an half angel that was gonna became the ruler when the demons kidnapped him prove otherwise. Making Maze stronger makes no sense, that would change who she is and that is something they don't want to do. Freezing hell was clearly a joke, but even if you want to take it seriously, that only proves Lucifer has control over hell, which we already know he has, not that he created it.

 

[ByArrow]

My understanding from the interview is that Lucifer made hell what it is now. So God created Hell, but it wasn't what it is now when it was first created, and then he banish Lucifer into Hell and Lucifer through his control over Hell and his self-realization made Hell what it is now.

 

[FinePoint]

My understanding from the interview is that Lucifer made hell what it is now. So God created Hell, but it wasn't what it is now when it was first created, and then he banish Lucifer into Hell and Lucifer through his control over Hell and his self-realization made Hell what it is now.

The wording does seem to intentionally avoid claiming he created it entirely by himself.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Hmmm...

Perhaps you are right. It is quite one-sided.
Consider me convinced.
I would support a cosmology split then.

I have a quintillion other projects going on right now, so you or someone else can handle it.

If I want to change anything about the profiles, I'll make another CRT.

This is what I have in mind right now. The others would scale to Lucifer and Maze downcales from this too (She apparently needs scaling too).

Attack Potency: Varies (His self- realization can change his power), at least wall level (Lucifer was shown breaking a wall, punching through a wall, does it again, throw a human through a wooden wall with drugs), up to unknown.

If anyone have another feat.

Speed: Varies (His self- realization can change his power), at least superhuman (Catched Mazekeen's knifes mid air, does it again)

If Class 5 don't work we have to go with Superhuman so...

Lifting Strength: At least Superhuman, Class 5 (Can stop a car with his hands lifting part of it)

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

This is what I have in mind right now. The others would scale to Lucifer and Maze downcales from this too (She apparently needs scaling too).


If anyone have another feat.

If Class 5 don't work we have to go with Superhuman so...

Bump

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

This is what I have in mind right now. The others would scale to Lucifer and Maze downcales from this too (She apparently needs scaling too).


If anyone have another feat.

If Class 5 don't work we have to go with Superhuman so...

Bump

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

This is what I have in mind right now. The others would scale to Lucifer and Maze downcales from this too (She apparently needs scaling too).


If anyone have another feat.

If Class 5 don't work we have to go with Superhuman so...

Bump

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

This is what I have in mind right now. The others would scale to Lucifer and Maze downcales from this too (She apparently needs scaling too).


If anyone have another feat.

If Class 5 don't work we have to go with Superhuman so...

Bump

 

[Theglassman12]

Reading through the thread, I mostly share the same thoughts as Finepoint though I'm not familiar with the show to know any alternate feats to use, so any other feats the cast can scale to I'll be fine with.

 

[ByArrow]

A few LS feats

• Lucifer bent a pistol twice.
• And he opened a magnetically locked door.
• He holds and lifts a racing car in 5x9.
• He throws a statue meters away.

 

[ByArrow]

here's what I'd like to say. Let's split Lucifer's profile into two keys, a series key and an Arrowverse key. Let the series key consist of his feats and the Arrowverse key hold this scaling.

The Series key holds only its own abilities, and the Arrowverse key holds abilities from both the series and scaling.

What are thoughts on this?

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

A few LS feats

• Lucifer bent a pistol twice.
• And he opened a magnetically locked door.
• He holds and lifts a racing car in 5x9.
• He throws a statue meters away.

I'm aware of those feats but do we have any value for them? Maybe the racing car can work if we know the model of the car and use real life values but the others require calcs and I don't think they would get actually good values

Reading through the thread, I mostly share the same thoughts as Finepoint though I'm not familiar with the show to know any alternate feats to use, so any other feats the cast can scale to I'll be fine with.

finepoint kinda changed his mind during this thread inicially he still accepted the scaling towards demons but he changed his mind and now he fully agrees with not scaling to arrowverse. Which position are you talking about?