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Lucifer, Dream, and Michael downgrade

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Beyond_transcending said:
My point is, what you're saying isn't necessarily true. "Composite cosmology" dunno what's that, but Orrery has been referred as all of creation as well. Not to mention, Dreaming is beyond creation and it's a part of Sphere of Gods.
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What the wiki uses currently is a composite cosmology that takes all the cosmology models into one, if that makes sense. Can you show a scan for each of these claims?
 
Tarang123 said:
Can you show a scan for each of these claims?
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Superman referred to the Orrery as "all of creation" when he was in Nil. "All of creation in a shattered jar." However, since we know that the Presence's creation encompasses the Sphere of the Gods, we know this description doesn't apply to the Presence's creation.

As for the Dreaming being "beyond creation" I can't seem to find a scan for that, so I don't know if that's true.
 
Deagonx said:
Superman referred to the Orrery as "all of creation" when he was in Nil. "All of creation in a shattered jar." However, since we know that the Presence's creation encompasses the Sphere of the Gods, we know this description doesn't apply to the Presence's creation.

As for the Dreaming being "beyond creation" I can't seem to find a scan for that, so I don't know if that's true.
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Alright, thanks for letting me know.

I think it would be good to message some mods to see what they think
 
Deagonx said:
It's also currently accepted that these characters are 1-A. The point of a CRT is to challenge what is currently accepted. You can't wall off other topics that tie into yours simply because your argument relies on whats in certain profiles, while also arguing that several profiles are currently wrong.
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No, that is not how it works. This CRT challenges the characters being 1-A yes, but that's the topic of the CRT. Whether Yahweh and the Divine Presence are the same are not part of the topic. This CRT's aim is to challenge the 1-A rating of the characters and only that, doing other revisions is literally what derailing means.
Deagonx said:
It is, Lucifer literally went past the Source Wall in his storyline and that was within the Presence's creation.
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The Source Wall exists in all dimensional levels. You will need to prove that was the "final" Source Wall.
Deagonx said:
And we also went over how his effects encompassed realms that also don't have atoms.
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Yes, because of time. But you can't say it's not limited to time and then when I say he also affected atoms, say they weren't limited to it due to time.
 
I don't know why we are even discussing this however, because at best the Presence only gave material to create the Multiverse, it didn't do so itself. That itself debunks The Endless' scan
 
Transcending said:
Whether Yahweh and the Divine Presence are the same are not part of the topic. This CRT's aim is to challenge the 1-A rating of the characters and only that, doing other revisions is literally what derailing means.
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I disagree. It's pertinent to the subject and is appropriate to discuss here as well.

Transcending said:
The Source Wall exists in all dimensional levels. You will need to prove that was the "final" Source Wall.
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There's only one Source Wall.
Transcending said:
Yes, because of time
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That was purely an assumption you made and something the comic said.
 
Deagonx said:
I disagree. It's pertinent to the subject and is appropriate to discuss here as well
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No, I don't believe other revisions can be carried out here. This CRT should be just if those characters are 1-A. I will ask a staff member later if it's derailing or not.
Deagonx said:
There's only one Source Wall.
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Yes, but it exists at different dimensional levels. It consistently exists at the end of every universe and in another comic was stated to exist literally everywhere.
 
Transcending said:
No, I don't believe other revisions can be carried out here. This CRT should be just if those characters are 1-A.
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Dismissing a bunch of scans by claiming they're about a different key of the Presence that these characters are allegedly unrelated to makes the subject relevant.


Transcending said:
Yes, but it exists at different dimensional levels. It consistently exists at the end of every universe and in another comic was stated to exist literally everywhere.
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That means the Source Wall in the Presence's creation is the Source Wall.
 
Deagonx said:
Dismissing a bunch of scans by claiming they're about a different key of the Presence that these characters are allegedly unrelated to makes the subject relevant.
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It's relevant sure, but combining those keys is not the topic of this CRT. You would need a separate one for that. Till then we go by what's accepted.
Deagonx said:
That means the Source Wall in the Presence's creation is the Source Wall.
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Not necessarily. His creation could just encompass the Source Wall at the edge of the universes or maybe the Sphere, the true Source Wall could then extend beyond it.
 
Transcending said:
No, that is not how it works. This CRT challenges the characters being 1-A yes, but that's the topic of the CRT. Whether Yahweh and the Divine Presence are the same are not part of the topic. This CRT's aim is to challenge the 1-A rating of the characters and only that, doing other revisions is literally what derailing means.
Click to expand...
To be fair, one of the arguments made here related to the Presence and the scaling is related to who Lucifer scales to, so I don't think it is derailing as it's still related to the ratings.
Transcending said:
Yes, but it exists at different dimensional levels. It consistently exists at the end of every universe and in another comic was stated to exist literally everywhere.
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Yeah, but considering that there's only one, if a character goes beyond it and reaches a construct beyond the entire thing, then I think that is a usable feat to scale it to the entire Source Wall.
 
Transcending said:
It's relevant sure, but combining those keys is not the topic of this CRT. You would need a separate one for that. Till then we go by what's accepted.
Click to expand...
Again, I disagree. It's relevant to this CRT.

Transcending said:
Not necessarily. His creation could just encompass the Source Wall at the edge of the universes or maybe the Sphere, the true Source Wall could then extend beyond it.
Click to expand...
Nonsensical mental gymnastics.
 
Tarang123 said:
This seems like it requires headcanon
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Why would it? I am making the lower claim, burden would be on him to prove it doesn't just contain the lower parts of the Source Wall but the ones dimensionally far higher.
Tarang123 said:
To be fair, one of the arguments made here related to the Presence and the scaling is related to who Lucifer scales to, so I don't think it is derailing as it's still related to the ratings.
Click to expand...
It's who Lucifer scales to and he isn't currently scaled to the Divine Presence.
Tarang123 said:
Yeah, but considering that there's only one, if a character goes beyond it and reaches a construct beyond the entire thing, then I think that is a usable feat to scale it to the entire Source Wall.
Click to expand...
Not necessarily. You can still go beyond the lower source walls, you would just reach dimensionally lower areas. The Source is Omnipresent, so its lower areas would exist beyond the lower Source Walls.
 
Transcending said:
Neither you, nor Tarang are addressing it. Calling it nonsensical and headcanon are not arguments.
Click to expand...

Transcending said:
Why would it? I am making the lower claim, burden would be on him to prove it doesn't just contain the lower parts of the Source Wall but the ones dimensionally far higher.
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This is laughably bad. You are claiming that the Presence's creation encompasses only a portion of the wall, and you think it is upon me to prove it doesn't?

This is nonsensical and isn't even worth addressing. You've given no basis for separating the creation of the wall into parts.
 
Transcending said:
Why would it? I am making the lower claim, burden would be on him to prove it doesn't just contain the lower parts of the Source Wall but the ones dimensionally far higher.
Click to expand...
No, he's going off the already understood knowledge of the object. You're making the assumption that it could mean some lower dimensional understanding of the Source for some lower realm, so you'd have to prove it.

Transcending said:
It's who Lucifer scales to and he isn't currently scaled to the Divine Presence.
Click to expand...
But that's what the debate, currently is about, as it does indeed relate to the scaling of Lucifer and Michael. So no, it wouldn't be derailing.
Transcending said:
Not necessarily. You can still go beyond the lower source walls, you would just reach dimensionally lower areas. The Source is Omnipresent, so its lower areas would exist beyond the lower Source Walls.
Click to expand...
But that's if it's already specified that a character is from a lower level to the point where them going beyond the source wall would be through outside interference, outliers, or because of it extending to a lower level. It doesn't make it an automatic assumption we can make for every single feat.

Transcending said:
Neither you, nor Tarang are addressing it. Calling it nonsensical and headcanon are not arguments.
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It is addressing it to say that it isn't a very strong argument considering that you didn't apply any evidence to support the notion that it would apply to Lucifer and Michael's feats.
 
Deagonx said:
This is laughably bad. You are claiming that the Presence's creation encompasses only a portion of the wall, and you think it is upon me to prove it doesn't?
Click to expand...
Yes it is, because the Source Wall exists everywhere in the DC Multiverse, in all its dimensions. The Presence's creation can contain universal source wall.
Deagonx said:
This is nonsensical and isn't even worth addressing. You've given no basis for separating the creation of the wall into parts.
Click to expand...
I already have, and that's the fact the Source Wall exists in all dimensions. That's why destroying a universal source wall doesn't scale you to the total one. POTM's blog even specifically mentions how showings of Source Wall are not considered to be the total one by default.
 
Tarang123 said:
No, he's going off the already understood knowledge of the object. You're making the assumption that it could mean some lower dimensional understanding of the Source for some lower realm, so you'd have to prove it.
Click to expand...
The Source Wall has been stated to exist everywhere, this scan is an example
Additionally, the Source Wall has been shown countless times to exist at the edge of every universe, this being an example
So I have already established that the Source Wall exists everywhere, and also borders every universe, not just the total Multiverse. It exists in all dimensional levels. This is why we don't consider feats of destroying the Source Wall to be 1-A by default. I don't have to definitively prove that Lucifer visited a universal source wall, I have provided a possibility and based it well, and since Deagon is arguing for a higher interpretation, the burden is on him.
Tarang123 said:
But that's what the debate, currently is about, as it does indeed relate to the scaling of Lucifer and Michael. So no, it wouldn't be derailing.
Click to expand...
It is related to their scaling, however it's not something currently accepted. This relation is currently accepted differently, with the Presence being divided into Yahweh and the Divine Presence. So this requires to change something else from the CRT other than what is currently accepted. It requires its own CRT.
Tarang123 said:
But that's if it's already specified that a character is from a lower level to the point where them going beyond the source wall would be through outside interference, outliers, or because of it extending to a lower level. It doesn't make it an automatic assumption we can make for every single feat.
Click to expand...
Why doesn't it? We know that the Source Wall exists in all dimensions, and universes. A Source Wall destruction feat can be destroying the Source Wall bordering a universe, or going beyond it can be going beyond a source wall bordering a universe. Saying it refers to the absolute source wall is a total assumption.

POTM also made it clear here-https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:princeOfTheMorning/DC_Cosmology_-_From_a_Holistic_Stance_on_the_Overall_Canon#:~:text=Characters%20cannot%20be,lower%2Ddimensional%20level.
Tarang123 said:
It is addressing it to say that it isn't a very strong argument considering that you didn't apply any evidence to support the notion that it would apply to Lucifer and Michael's feats.
Click to expand...
Because the burden is not on me. I am claiming a lower interpretation and has provided a base to the interpretation being a possibility. By default, higher interpretations need to be proved, not lower ones. The lower ones are the default takes.
 
I propose that we also add this to the top of their profiles

Note: This profile will be subject to revision in the near future. Until the revision is completed, it is not advised that users create VS threads featuring this character.
 
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