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Lucifer, Dream, and Michael downgrade

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So I have already established that the Source Wall exists everywhere, and also borders every universe, not just the total Multiverse. It exists in all dimensional levels. This is why we don't consider feats of destroying the Source Wall to be 1-A by default. I don't have to definitively prove that Lucifer visited a universal source wall, I have provided a possibility and based it well, and since Deagon is arguing for a higher interpretation, the burden is on him.
The idea that you are arguing that the Presence only made half of the Source Wall and that someone else made the other half, and the fact that you thinking making this claim puts the onus on me to prove otherwise is not really worth taking seriously.
 
Why is this even still going on? We don’t even know how Limbo came into existence, and the Monitor Sphere literally formed on its own. So as far as I’m aware, the Presence has no proof of creating Limbo or the Monitor Sphere. Therefore it’s not a part of his creation.

The only evidence you guys are trying to use for this, is some vague bullshit about Destiny being drawn at the top of the map, and the Source Wall which literally exist everywhere.
 
Why is this even still going on? We don’t even know how Limbo came into existence, and the Monitor Sphere literally formed on its own. So as far as I’m aware, the Presence has no proof of creating Limbo or the Monitor Sphere. Therefore it’s not a part of his creation.

The only evidence you guys are trying to use for this, is some vague bullshit about Destiny being drawn at the top of the map, and the Source Wall which literally exist everywhere.
Exactly
 
I mean, True Source Wall = Highest Source Wall that exist at the edge of Map. There are lower Source Walls in lower planes, as explained by Transcending.
Ahh yes, the mysterious extra Source Walls that no one in DC history has ever mentioned.

There's only a single Source Wall. This singular construct spans and encompasses the entirety of the Multiverse. Dividing it into "higher and lower" parts is headcanon being created for the sole purpose of downplaying characters.
 
Ahh yes, the mysterious extra Source Walls that no one in DC history has ever mentioned.

There's only a single Source Wall. This singular construct spans and encompasses the entirety of the Multiverse. Dividing it into "higher and lower" parts is headcanon being created for the sole purpose of downplaying characters.
This is common, the point I don't see as necessary is how they interpret things in this context.

“Higher” and “Lower” by his definition shouldn't be cohesive and thus fallible until the context is met to provide a basis for a claim on what it means. I rather ignore this part or bring staff to oversee the situation.
 
The idea that you are arguing that the Presence only made half of the Source Wall and that someone else made the other half
Going by the current canon, the wall was created by the Cosmic Raptor, not the Presence anyway.
and that someone else made the other half, and the fact that you thinking making this claim puts the onus on me to prove otherwise is not really worth taking seriously.
If the Source Wall had all existed in the same dimensional level? I would have agreed with you. But in this case, the Source Wall exists in different dimensional levels, and the wiki explicitly doesn't deal feats of destruction of Source Wall to automatically scale to 1-A.
 
Going by the current canon, the wall was created by the Cosmic Raptor, not the Presence anyway.
That's irrelevant to the discussion being had, which is about what the "Presence's creation" refers to in terms of his name maintaining existence. Even in Lucifer, the Presence himself didn't create the multiverse, Michael did, but the Presence still scales to this because he created Michael, and because his name and will is what maintains manifest reality. We know that this includes the Source Wall, which encompasses the entire Multiverse. You're trying to argue that this only encompasses lower parts of the Source Wall, but have provided no basis for this separation and it logically interferes with the story.

I would have agreed with you. But in this case, the Source Wall exists in different dimensional levels, and the wiki explicitly doesn't deal feats of destruction of Source Wall to automatically scale to 1-A.
Destroying parts and sections of the wall doesn't automatically scale to 1-A, for obvious reasons. The same way destroying part of a building isn't building level unless it's the entire building. This doesn't change the fact that the Presence's will is what manifests the Source Wall's continued existence. There is no logical basis for applying that to only specific sections of the wall, especially given the context of the story.
 
That's irrelevant to the discussion being had, which is about what the "Presence's creation" refers to in terms of his name maintaining existence. Even in Lucifer, the Presence himself didn't create the multiverse, Michael did, but the Presence still scales to this because he created Michael, and because his name and will is what maintains manifest reality. We know that this includes the Source Wall, which encompasses the entire Multiverse. You're trying to argue that this only encompasses lower parts of the Source Wall, but have provided no basis for this separation and it logically interferes with the story.


Destroying parts and sections of the wall doesn't automatically scale to 1-A, for obvious reasons. The same way destroying part of a building isn't building level unless it's the entire building. This doesn't change the fact that the Presence's will is what manifests the Source Wall's continued existence. There is no logical basis for applying that to only specific sections of the wall, especially given the context of the story.
In the first instance however, Presence gave Michael his powers, Presence didn't give Cosmic Raptor his powers, So retconned.

Secondly, he don't have to bring a logical basis because he is claiming an equal interpretation, And by default we take the lower interpretation.

Thirdly, prove it logically interferes with the story.

The last part is completely wrong, there's a difference between 3D and 1-A stuff.

Destroying a part of a 1-A structure is still 1-A, because the difference between 1-A and Low 1-A is more than a qualitative superiority
 
In the first instance however, Presence gave Michael his powers, Presence didn't give Cosmic Raptor his powers, So retconned.
The Cosmic Raptors power most likely does come from the Presence, but that's not the point being made.

Secondly, he don't have to bring a logical basis because he is claiming an equal interpretation, And by default we take the lower interpretation.
He does, because his interpretation separates a singular construct arbitrarily. Moreover, we do not "by default take the lower interpretation" if such an interpretation is unsupported by evidence.

Thirdly, prove it logically interferes with the story.
I have addressed this repeatedly. The storyline regarding the Presence and his creation does not mesh with this claim of the Source Wall having parts external to the Presence's creation. The idea of Lucifer going into the void and creating his own multiverse is a shock to the Host of Heaven. It's unthinkable to them to have something outside what the Presence has created. This is completely incompatible with the idea that only part of the Source Wall is part of his creation, and immediately outside of it is a higher form of the same wall, that isn't part of the Presence's creation, and simply no one was aware of it and never references this.

On top of that, this interpretation contradicts the Multiversity Map which places Destiny on top of the wall overseeing everything. Destiny's book oversees everything in the Multiverse, but according to the Basanos this did not encompass Lucifer's creation. Meaning that if the wall and the realms below it are recorded in Destiny's book, then it is also part of the Presence's creation.

You are creating nonsensical divides where none exist to pretend a being is lower than he actually is.

The last part is completely wrong, there's a difference between 3D and 1-A stuff.
It was an analogy for the concept. How the wiki treats the Source Wall does not support the claims you are making.
 
The Cosmic Raptors power most likely does come from the Presence
Why?
He does, because his interpretation separates a singular construct arbitrarily.
That's how the wiki's interpretation works, plus the Monitors referred to multiple Source Walls existing with Anti-Life in-between them before.
Moreover, we do not "by default take the lower interpretation" if such an interpretation is unsupported by evidence.
I proved it a valid possibility, that is enough.
I have addressed this repeatedly. The storyline regarding the Presence and his creation does not mesh with this claim of the Source Wall having parts external to the Presence's creation. The idea of Lucifer going into the void and creating his own multiverse is a shock to the Host of Heaven. It's unthinkable to them to have something outside what the Presence has created. This is completely incompatible with the idea that only part of the Source Wall is part of his creation, and immediately outside of it is a higher form of the same wall, that isn't part of the Presence's creation, and simply no one was aware of it and never references this.
That just means the Host lacks awareness, which makes sense. The higher parts of the Wall isn't dimensionally equal to which they know, it's dimensionally and qualitatively superior. The higher parts of the Wall are a solid 1-A compared to the Low 1-C of the Sphere and even lower of the Orrery.
On top of that, this interpretation contradicts the Multiversity Map which places Destiny on top of the wall overseeing everything. Destiny's book oversees everything in the Multiverse
This was addressed before.
but according to the Basanos this did not encompass Lucifer's creation. Meaning that if the wall and the realms below it are recorded in Destiny's book, then it is also part of the Presence's creation.
Can you elaborate on this logic? I don't understand why Destiny's book not encompassing Lucifer's creation equals to the map being part of the Presence's creation.
It was an analogy for the concept. How the wiki treats the Source Wall does not support the claims you are making.
Can you elaborate?
 
Because the power of the Supercelestials does.

That's how the wiki's interpretation works
No, it isn't. The fact that destroying a chunk of the wall doesn't scale you to the entire wall is not supportive of your claim.

I proved it a valid possibility, that is enough.
No, it isn't. We are not solely looking at what is "possible" we are considering what is probable and most likely. I can refer to a scene with Batman and Joker fighting and say "well what if this whole thing was a dream?" and that's certainly possible, but that doesn't create a burden of proof on someone else to prove it's not a dream. Offering a hypothetically possible, but far-fetched, interpretation of an event doesn't mean other people have to disprove it.

And more importantly, you do not apply this level of rigor or skepticism to your own claims.

That just means the Host lacks awareness, which makes sense
No, it doesn't. I'm not just referring to average angels. Michael himself, the Endless, Lucifer, et cetera, regard the Presence's creation this way. Your divided model for the Source Wall is pure speculation and is incompatible with the storyline.

This was addressed before.
Addressing an argument doesn't make it magically disappear if the counter-argument is not sufficient. The reasoning was valid, Destiny's book covering the events of the entire Multiverse indicate that it is part of the Presence's creation.
I don't understand why Destiny's book not encompassing Lucifer's creation equals to the map being part of the Presence's creation.
Because the book only covers the Presence's creation.
 
Because the power of the Supercelestials does.
The power of the Supercelestials to create the Multiverses was stated to come from the Presence, it wasn't stated to be their general power.
No, it isn't. The fact that destroying a chunk of the wall doesn't scale you to the entire wall is not supportive of your claim.
Destroying a chunk of a 1-A structure is 1-A, since the difference between 1-A and Low 1-A is more than a qualitative superiority.
No, it isn't. We are not solely looking at what is "possible" we are considering what is probable and most likely. I can refer to a scene with Batman and Joker fighting and say "well what if this whole thing was a dream?" and that's certainly possible, but that doesn't create a burden of proof on someone else to prove it's not a dream. Offering a hypothetically possible, but far-fetched, interpretation of an event doesn't
You didn't understand what I said. I said I proved it a valid possibility, the fight between Batman and Joker being a dream is not a valid possibility because it has zero basis to it. I have based my possibility.
And more importantly, you do not apply this level of rigor or skepticism to your own claims.
What do you mean?
No, it doesn't. I'm not just referring to average angels. Michael himself, the Endless, Lucifer, et cetera, regard the Presence's creation this way. Your divided model for the Source Wall is pure speculation and is incompatible with the storyline
Scans?
Addressing an argument doesn't make it magically disappear if the counter-argument is not sufficient. The reasoning was valid, Destiny's book covering the events of the entire Multiverse
I do not think anyone addressed my counter-argument.
Because the book only covers the Presence's creation.
I don't consider the map to be part of the Presence's creation
 
The power of the Supercelestials to create the Multiverses was stated to come from the Presence, it wasn't stated to be their general power.
Perpetua says in creating the Multiverse she hopes to please the Source of her power. It also stands to reason that if the Supercelestials are agents of multiversal creation being tasked out by the Presence that the Presence also created the Supercelestials, unless we think a separate unmentioned deity created them and then the Presence somehow became in charge of them, or if we theorize they somehow created themselves and then started working for the Presence. The most reasonable answer is that the Presence/Source created them.

Destroying a chunk of a 1-A structure is 1-A, since the difference between 1-A and Low 1-A is more than a qualitative superiority.
Again, you are missing the point. This isn't about the term "1-A" this is about why destroying a portion of a structure does not scale you to the entire structure, and the fact that this difference has nothing to do with the discussion of separating the Source Wall in terms of only part of it being within the Presence's creation.

You didn't understand what I said. I said I proved it a valid possibility, the fight between Batman and Joker being a dream is not a valid possibility because it has zero basis to it. I have based my possibility.
Then you're using the wrong words entirely. A fight being a dream is absolutely a valid possibility. You haven't provided actual evidence for saying the wall was created by different people, or that the Presence's creation only encompasses half of it. It's purely speculative the same way the "dream fight" would be.

This is peppered throughout the entire Lucifer storyline, but particularly with regard to Lucifer creating his own multiverse and the Presence vacating creation. I do not have the time to read through the whole thing to demonstrate this for you.

I don't consider the map to be part of the Presence's creation
The comics disagree.
 
Hitchen's Razor then.
Alright, I'll answer it for Deagon.

In the beginning, Night and Time came together to make every Creation possible floating in the Void.

When Yahweh created the World his version was the main one because Dreams of humans forged him to be this monotheistic God that forges everything. In these 3 Creations remain His, Lucifer, and Elaine. Elaine then forged the absence of the space with her Creation connecting all 3 under her name.

We see from the perspective of Berim of the Jin En Mok and Later confirmed by Lucifer that all Creations supported from that Void that is be voided of Time. In this Creation story formed by Dream, he sees the next Creation as the same after reading the thoughts of Yahweh earlier when Yahweh mentioned “patterns persist.” all Creation exist in different pasts and history because none of them are subjected to Time as linear since no Creation predates the others. There is no time to distinguishes which came first.

All we know is there separate Creation that may come before Yahweh confirmed by beings older than him and Creation after by those who see all the Creations resting at the heartbeat of Eternity.

The Host being surprised is that all they do is follow God without question. Almost relying on him for everything, Lucifer doing all this is a shock to everyone who didn't care to defy God's order not even Michael. The Host themselves didn't do anything and Michael was the only one to try. Generally, if you wanna know about the Dreams, Creation, and the Void of Vertigo I suggest you read it.
 
Hitchen's Razor then.
Believe it or not, simply naming off concepts you read about in Wikipedia articles doesn't make an argument true or false, or valid or invalid. It certainly won't result in a CRT getting approved if the argument is based on willful ignorance of the storyline, and saying that anyone who doesn't spoonfeed you an understanding of certain concepts and themes should be ignored isn't going to convince other people, especially ones who are already familiar with the story.
 
Perpetua says in creating the Multiverse she hopes to please the Source of her power.
She never said "in creating the Multiverse", you are adding that part. She only said she wanted to please the Source of her power.
It also stands to reason that if the Supercelestials are agents of multiversal creation being tasked out by the Presence that the Presence also created the Supercelestials,
If Jason Momoa tasks his bodyguards to protect him, does that mean he created them? Non-Sequitur.
unless we think a separate unmentioned deity created them
Not out of the realm of possibility, BUT
or if we theorize they somehow created themselves and then started working for the Presence.
This seems to be the better alternative. Lots of characters in DC have just existed without a creator, they could have just existed like that. They could have worked for the Presence to gain the material for creating Multiverses.

The most reasonable answer is that the Presence/Source created them.
That's not the most reasonable answer, that's a theory at best, an assumption at worst.
Again, you are missing the point. This isn't about the term "1-A" this is about why destroying a portion of a structure does not scale you to the entire structure, a
It doesn't scale you to the entire structure but it still scales you to the same tier. You would just be downscaled.
and the fact that this difference has nothing to do with the discussion of separating the Source Wall in terms of only part of it being within the Presence's creation.
My point is that the Wall exists in different dimensional levels, so at certain levels it is 1-A, while in other levels it's 4-B. There's nothing suggesting the 1-A levels are within the Presence's creation. I will try to explain with an analogy. Suppose I am a DC character existing in the Sphere. One day I decided to create some realms larger than The Sphere but smaller than Limbo and fit the gaps between them. So I do so. Now my creation some of the Source Wall. Why? Because the Source Wall exists everywhere and nowhere. But does it contain the 1-A parts of the Source Wall? The final thing? No. Same thing here.
Then you're using the wrong words entirely. A fight being a dream is absolutely a valid possibility
I don't think you understood what I meant by "valid". Is it a true possibility? Yes, and it's valid in that way. But is it something that can be used in debates? No
You haven't provided actual evidence for saying the wall was created by different people, or that the Presence's creation only encompasses half of it. It's purely speculative the same way the "dream fight" would be.
Wrong. I would like you to look at this chart. I am sure you know about this as you yourself have used this before. An explanation needs three things- claim, evidence, and reasoning. The dream fight has a claim, but no evidence or reasoning. My claim however, also has evidence and reasoning
The Source Wall has been stated to exist everywhere, this scan is an example
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/3/32/SourceWall6.png/revision/latest?cb=20200211211022 Additionally, the Source Wall has been shown countless times to exist at the edge of every universe, this being an example
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/926432797067984907/982651426079645766/unknown.png So I have already established that the Source Wall exists everywhere, and also borders every universe, not just the total Multiverse. It exists in all dimensional levels. This is why we don't consider feats of destroying the Source Wall to be 1-A by default. I don't have to definitively prove that Lucifer visited a universal source wall, I have provided a possibility and based it well, and since Deagon is arguing for a higher interpretation, the burden is on him.
So I have a complete explanation. The Dream fight doesn't. I didn't say the Wall was created by different people. Presence's creation encompassing only a part of the Wall is a definite possibility which I have based. That is enough.
The comics disagree.
They don't, however, continuing this line of argument would be the same as one of us saying "Yes" and the other saying "No". There's no point to it so I will drop it.
 
She never said "in creating the Multiverse", you are adding that part. She only said she wanted to please the Source of her power.

If Jason Momoa tasks his bodyguards to protect him, does that mean he created them? Non-Sequitur.

Not out of the realm of possibility, BUT

This seems to be the better alternative. Lots of characters in DC have just existed without a creator, they could have just existed like that. They could have worked for the Presence to gain the material for creating Multiverses.


That's not the most reasonable answer, that's a theory at best, an assumption at worst.

It doesn't scale you to the entire structure but it still scales you to the same tier. You would just be downscaled.

My point is that the Wall exists in different dimensional levels, so at certain levels it is 1-A, while in other levels it's 4-B. There's nothing suggesting the 1-A levels are within the Presence's creation. I will try to explain with an analogy. Suppose I am a DC character existing in the Sphere. One day I decided to create some realms larger than The Sphere but smaller than Limbo and fit the gaps between them. So I do so. Now my creation some of the Source Wall. Why? Because the Source Wall exists everywhere and nowhere. But does it contain the 1-A parts of the Source Wall? The final thing? No. Same thing here.

I don't think you understood what I meant by "valid". Is it a true possibility? Yes, and it's valid in that way. But is it something that can be used in debates? No

Wrong. I would like you to look at this chart. I am sure you know about this as you yourself have used this before. An explanation needs three things- claim, evidence, and reasoning. The dream fight has a claim, but no evidence or reasoning. My claim however, also has evidence and reasoning

So I have a complete explanation. The Dream fight doesn't. I didn't say the Wall was created by different people. Presence's creation encompassing only a part of the Wall is a definite possibility which I have based. That is enough.

They don't, however, continuing this line of argument would be the same as one of us saying "Yes" and the other saying "No". There's no point to it so I will drop it.
Exactly
 
Believe it or not, simply naming off concepts you read about in Wikipedia articles doesn't make an argument true or false, or valid or invalid. It certainly won't result in a CRT getting approved if the argument is based on willful ignorance of the storyline, and saying that anyone who doesn't spoonfeed you an understanding of certain concepts and themes should be ignored isn't going to convince other people, especially ones who are already familiar with the story.
You are claiming it's based on willful ignorance, burden is on you to prove it. Saying you can't prove evidence for your claims but it should still be accepted doesn't accept it. If you can't provide proof to your claims, why are you making them?
 
She never said "in creating the Multiverse", you are adding that part. She only said she wanted to please the Source of her power.
She said this in response to her sons asking what the purpose of a multiverse was.
If Jason Momoa tasks his bodyguards to protect him, does that mean he created them? Non-Sequitur.
This is completely false equivalence which ignores the setting and context. Terrible argument.
This seems to be the better alternative.
The better alternative is that the supercelestials just-so-happened to create themselves and then started working for the Presence, who asked them to make multiverses? That's ridiculous. You are making this assertion solely out of convenience, not because it is rational.
That's not the most reasonable answer, that's a theory at best, an assumption at worst.
You can claim that if you want, it doesn't make much of a difference to me.

My point is that the Wall exists in different dimensional levels, so at certain levels it is 1-A, while in other levels it's 4-B. There's nothing suggesting the 1-A levels are within the Presence's creation.
Once again, this is illogical. There is no reason why lower sections of the Source Wall would be dependent on the Presence's will to remain in existence, but higher levels separately would not. This idea of separating the Source Wall in and out of the Presence's creation is mental gymnastics with no evidentiary basis for it.
Is it a true possibility? Yes, and it's valid in that way. But is it something that can be used in debates? No
And yet, here you are.
The dream fight has a claim, but no evidence or reasoning. My claim however, also has evidence and reasoning
You have provided no evidence that some parts of the Source Wall are inside the Presence's creation whereas others are outside of it. Your reasoning itself is poor and ignores the context of the story.

You are claiming it's based on willful ignorance, burden is on you to prove it. Saying you can't prove evidence for your claims but it should still be accepted doesn't accept it. If you can't provide proof to your claims, why are you making them?
It's a matter of what amount of argumentation is worth my effort. In the DC general thread someone asked me to "prove" Quantum Superman was referring to Nil when he said higher dimension. Could I go and receive the scans that demonstrate this? Yes, I could. Do I intend to waste my time on someone who hasn't even read the comic book? Not really, no.

Frankly, I don't consider it worth my time to spoon-feed you the story of Lucifer in order to illustrate basic facts that you would know if you read the comic.

Simply claiming someone else has a burden of proof they haven't met, therefore you win, isn't going to get any CRT approved. It is not the responsibility of forum members to explain stories to you. The only staff members who are likely to participate in this thread are the ones who are pretty familiar with the characters, which means they'll have read the story and already see the same error in your argument that I saw. I just don't really consider it a worthwhile way to spend my time since the CRT is likely to be perceived the same way by the DC-informed staff members. It doesn't matter if you declare yourself the winner by way of claiming someone else had the burden of proof, if the CRT gets rejected, it doesn't make a difference, so I am not going to painstakingly read through a bunch of comics that you should have already read to teach you something you should already know if you're making this thread.
 
Lucifer Morningstar is popularly known as one of DC's top tier beings, with many even saying he's the second most powerful in the entire verse. However, as much as I love the character, I feel like he's been incredibly overhyped by people. The wiki is no exception. So in this thread I will go over his current justifications and explain why he, and in extension, some other Vertigo characters, need to be downgraded.

1: Time and Space are his extensions
This is cool and all but time and space being your extensions is nothing more than Low 2-C. I have no idea why this reason is given for him being 1-A

2: Capable of moving in and comprehending the boundless void beyond all extensions of space and time
The void was never stated to be beyond all extensions of space and time, only to be outside them, which isn't even enough for a normal qualitative superiority, let alone one for 1-A. Lucifer is also explicitly infinitesimal to it, so yeah.

Both scans from Lucifer #75

3: Escaped his function and went outside the Presence's plan, and destroyed Logos with a touch, the first word which sung all existence into being
Why would escaping the Presence's plan be 1-A? This was never explained in the profile. About Logos, why would existence in the context be 1-A? The given scan also mentions the universe, which, while may refer to the Multiverse, is not 1-A either way. Plus given the Logos stuff happened in The Silver City, I highly doubt it extends to Limbo and higher.

4: Scales above Dream of the Endless
This is where we start to branch out from Lucifer. Now I will discuss Dream

a) He, like the other Endless, is a primal truth encompassing every aspect of the Presence's creation, which contains 1-A realms like Limbo, Monitor Sphere and the Source Wall
This applies to the entire Endless, not just Dream, but why would the Presence's creation contain Limbo, Monitor Sphere, and the Source Wall? There's nothing suggesting it does, so this tiering makes no sense.

b) His oldest incarnation exists beyond space and time, in the space beyond space and space beneath space. His ship, which is made from a piece of The Dreaming sails outside of space or time , in nowhere and nothing outside of Destiny's Book. The aspects of Dream exist in a notional place, neither real or unreal
Existing beyond space and time doesn't mean a qualitative superiority over space and time. Hell, it doesn't even necessarily mean any superiority. Additionally, "space beyond space" and "space beneath space" straight out implies he isn't completely beyond space. Secondly, sailing outside space and time again doesn't need to refer to any superiority, let alone a qualitative superiority. I don't know why existing in a place neither real or unreal is even there, that gives no tier, let alone 1-A.

And remember, even a single qualitative superiority isn't enough for 1-A. So I think you can see my point.


5: Scales to Michael
And finally, we are at the end. Lucifer scales to Michael who's 1-A so Lucifer should also be 1-A right? WRONG, Michael isn't 1-A. The justifications given for scaling Michael to this tier is "Is the mightiest servant of the Presence. Renews every moment and atom of the Presence's creation which contains 1-A realms such as Limbo, Monitor Sphere and The Source Wall." I addressed the second point when I addressed Dream. As for the first point, why would being the mightiest servant of the Presence be 1-A? You would first need to prove Presence's other servants are 1-A.

Conclusion
Lucifer, Michael, and Dream are nowhere close to 1-A and should be severely downgraded.
I agree
 
She said this in response to her sons asking what the purpose of a multiverse was.
And she said that she cannot speak to its purpose, and then that she hopes to please the Source of her power. Her power is not the Multiverse. She was trying to impress the Source with how great her power was, not with how great her Multiverse was.
This is completely false equivalence which ignores the setting and context. Terrible argument.
Calling it a terrible argument doesn't counter it. Look, all you have been doing in this CRT has been calling my arguments terrible and laughably bad without countering them, can you focus on the point instead?
The better alternative is that the supercelestials just-so-happened to create themselves and then started working for the Presence, who asked them to make multiverses? That's ridiculous. You are making this assertion solely out of convenience, not because it is rational.
Not exactly. I am saying that The Hands wanted to create the Multiverses, but they didn't have the material to, and hence asked the Source for material.
Once again, this is illogical. There is no reason why lower sections of the Source Wall would be dependent on the Presence's will to remain in existence, but higher levels separately would not. This idea of separating the Source Wall in and out of the Presence's creation is mental gymnastics with no evidentiary basis for it.
This is because the Source Wall exists in different dimensional levels. From the perspective of the higher layers, the lower layers are fiction, infinitesimal, illusion, unreal, or something like that. Presence's will is helping sections of the source wall that are not even real to the higher layers.

To further support my point, suppose there's a character whose existence supports the existence of the universe. But he's a 3D being and is hence limited to High 3-A. He cannot do anything to time and higher spatial layers. And even if he dies and the 3D layer gets destroyed, the higher layers would live because the higher layers are not dependent on the lower layers, the lower layers are not real to them. This is perfectly possible. The Universe as a whole lives.
You have provided no evidence that some parts of the Source Wall are inside the Presence's creation whereas others are outside of it. Your reasoning itself is poor and ignores the context of the story.
You have provided no evidence that the Presence's creation encompasses the entire Wall either. All we know is that the Presence's creation contains a part of the Source Wall or the entire thing. And the wiki clearly distincts the lower layers with the higher layers as proved by POTM's blog. So we take the lower interpretation, that is, it contains only a part of it.

I even used an analogy earlier to further explain this-
Suppose I am a DC character existing in the Sphere. One day I decided to create some realms larger than The Sphere but smaller than Limbo and fit the gaps between them. So I do so. Now my creation some of the Source Wall. Why? Because the Source Wall exists everywhere and nowhere. But does it contain the 1-A parts of the Source Wall? The final thing? No. Same thing here.
It's a matter of what amount of argumentation is worth my effort. In the DC general thread someone asked me to "prove" Quantum Superman was referring to Nil when he said higher dimension. Could I go and receive the scans that demonstrate this? Yes, I could. Do I intend to waste my time on someone who hasn't even read the comic book? Not really, no.

Frankly, I don't consider it worth my time to spoon-feed you the story of Lucifer in order to illustrate basic facts that you would know if you read the comic.
You don't need to consider it worth your time, no problem. Your argument just wouldn't count, because you not considering it worth your time is your problem, not mine.
Simply claiming someone else has a burden of proof they haven't met, therefore you win, isn't going to get any CRT approved. It is not the responsibility of forum members to explain stories to you. T
It is their burden to explain their claims to me and back it up. If they can't, they shouldn't make the claims.
It doesn't matter if you declare yourself the winner by way of claiming someone else had the burden of proof,
I don't declare myself the winner usually, in any normal argument. I only declare myself so in specific debates, and I am sure you know what I am talking about.
 
And she said that she cannot speak to its purpose, and then that she hopes to please the Source of her power. Her power is not the Multiverse. She was trying to impress the Source with how great her power was, not with how great her Multiverse was.
This doesn't make any sense. The entire context of the conversation is explaining what a multiverse is, and what it's purpose is.

lsIH8pS.png

She creates her sons, and explains she was sent to create a system of life. They ask her what she's holding, she says a multiverse. They ask what the purpose of a multiverse is, she says she can't speak to it purpose, but she will say she hopes to please the Source of her power. She hopes to create something dynamic, beautiful, striking, and unique. She then explains the basic structure of the multiverse.

It is clear from the context that she is explaining that her job is to create a multiverse, and wants to please the Source of her power (the Source/Presence, who tasked her with creating a multiverse) and explains that she wants to make something unique and beautiful. This obviously means that this goal of creating a unique and beautiful multiverse is how she intends to please the Source.

I don't know how anyone could read that story and think somehow it meant that she was trying to impress the Source with how much power she had. That makes absolutely no sense given the context.

Calling it a terrible argument doesn't counter it.
You're right. Consider the above response. How much time am I meant to spend explaining obvious story elements to someone who is being willfully ignorant of the story? "Impress the Source with how great her power was?"

I do not have the time, energy, or desire, to personally and individually untangle every one of the many misconceptions you have about these stories. Brandolini's Law, it takes much more energy to refute nonsense than it takes to create it. It only took you five seconds to say "she wanted to impress the Source with how great her power was" but for me to rebut that, I have to go and get a scan, and basically spoon-feed you the meaning of it, in order to clarify that what you said was clearly and obviously wrong.

I do not have the time to do that every time you say something that doesn't make any sense in a storyline, because you do it almost constantly and it isn't my job to read DC comics on your behalf. Simply put, you only have so much leeway before I am just going to say "this is nonsense" and move on, because any argument so bad that I need to just dismiss it off-hand is bad enough that it has no chance of being approved, so it isn't worth my time to personally rebut.

This is because the Source Wall exists in different dimensional levels.
I have already explained why this assertion does not make any sense given the context of the story, and the fact you've given no evidence of it.

You have provided no evidence that the Presence's creation encompasses the entire Wall either.
The default assumption is that if his creation contains "the Source Wall" then it contains "the Source Wall." You are the one advocating for completely arbitrarily divisions, but you have absolutely no evidence for this.

Your argument just wouldn't count, because you not considering it worth your time is your problem, not mine.
It is their burden to explain their claims to me and back it up. If they can't, they shouldn't make the claims.

I am entirely unconcerned with whose problem you see it as, or whether or not you think I should be making true statements about the story if I can't be bothered to read it to you personally if you aren't already aware. The site functions on the approval or rejection of CRTs, so having a woefully unconvincing argument, or having an argument that relies on ignoring information that anyone who read the story would already have, is in fact your problem, because it means this CRT is probably going to go absolutely nowhere.
 
This doesn't make any sense. The entire context of the conversation is explaining what a multiverse is, and what it's purpose is.

lsIH8pS.png

She creates her sons, and explains she was sent to create a system of life. They ask her what she's holding, she says a multiverse. They ask what the purpose of a multiverse is, she says she can't speak to it purpose, but she will say she hopes to please the Source of her power. She hopes to create something dynamic, beautiful, striking, and unique. She then explains the basic structure of the multiverse.

It is clear from the context that she is explaining that her job is to create a multiverse, and wants to please the Source of her power (the Source/Presence, who tasked her with creating a multiverse) and explains that she wants to make something unique and beautiful. This obviously means that this goal of creating a unique and beautiful multiverse is how she intends to please the Source.

I don't know how anyone could read that story and think somehow it meant that she was trying to impress the Source with how much power she had. That makes absolutely no sense given the context.


You're right. Consider the above response. How much time am I meant to spend explaining obvious story elements to someone who is being willfully ignorant of the story? "Impress the Source with how great her power was?"

I do not have the time, energy, or desire, to personally and individually untangle every one of the many misconceptions you have about these stories. Brandolini's Law, it takes much more energy to refute nonsense than it takes to create it. It only took you five seconds to say "she wanted to impress the Source with how great her power was" but for me to rebut that, I have to go and get a scan, and basically spoon-feed you the meaning of it, in order to clarify that what you said was clearly and obviously wrong.

I do not have the time to do that every time you say something that doesn't make any sense in a storyline, because you do it almost constantly and it isn't my job to read DC comics on your behalf. Simply put, you only have so much leeway before I am just going to say "this is nonsense" and move on, because any argument so bad that I need to just dismiss it off-hand is bad enough that it has no chance of being approved, so it isn't worth my time to personally rebut.


I have already explained why this assertion does not make any sense given the context of the story, and the fact you've given no evidence of it.


The default assumption is that if his creation contains "the Source Wall" then it contains "the Source Wall." You are the one advocating for completely arbitrarily divisions, but you have absolutely no evidence for this.




I am entirely unconcerned with whose problem you see it as, or whether or not you think I should be making true statements about the story if I can't be bothered to read it to you personally if you aren't already aware. The site functions on the approval or rejection of CRTs, so having a woefully unconvincing argument, or having an argument that relies on ignoring information that anyone who read the story would already have, is in fact your problem, because it means this CRT is probably going to go absolutely nowhere.
this is overkill
 
I feel like Lucifer should be 1-A via composite DC but if DC is actually getting a cosmology split, then ig he isn't.
 
Even in the revision if we take composite scaling of the Vertigo verse separate from the diverse I would say he still gets Low 1-A to 1-A maybe just baseline with Vertigo Void/Yahweh capping at a higher 1-A. I think his perfectly fine the way it is. As for the rest of DC, yeah the revision is necessary.
 
I do not have the time, energy, or desire, to personally and individually untangle every one of the many misconceptions you have about these stories. Brandolini's Law, it takes much more energy to refute nonsense than it takes to create it. It only took you five seconds to say "she wanted to impress the Source with how great her power was" but for me to rebut that, I have to go and get a scan, and basically spoon-feed you the meaning of it, in order to clarify that what you said was clearly and obviously wrong.

I do not have the time to do that every time you say something that doesn't make any sense in a storyline, because you do it almost constantly and it isn't my job to read DC comics on your behalf. Simply put, you only have so much leeway before I am just going to say "this is nonsense" and move on, because any argument so bad that I need to just dismiss it off-hand is bad enough that it has no chance of being approved, so it isn't worth my time to personally rebut.
That's Argument from Incredulity, Hitchen's Razor, Argument from Ridicule, and Ad Hominem. He hasn't been toxic while you have been uncivil all the time. Not to mention, you said Perpetua was Uni, CAS was Multi-Solar, etc, claims that are nonsense to us. Yet we wouldn't say that it's nonsense and hence we won't address it. We will address it.
I have already explained why this assertion does not make any sense given the context of the story, and the fact you've given no evidence of it
We asked you for proof on your explanation and you didn't give it, meaning we can dismiss it. Further, even if we accept your explanation as true, that doesn't actually explain why the Host would still know of full Source Wall. Lastly, you haven't proved the reference was to the true Source Wall, and he has proved that Source Wall exists in all dimensional levels. So by lower interpretation, we use his interpretation.

The default assumption is that if his creation contains "the Source Wall" then it contains "the Source Wall." You are the one advocating for completely arbitrarily divisions, but you have absolutely no evidence for this.
You're ignoring his arguments. POTM blog explains how feats destroying and affecting The Source Wall doesn't automatically scale to 1-A, as it exists in lower dimensions and the destruction could have affected the lower dimensional Source Wall. Plus, he presented an analogy which you haven't countered.
I am entirely unconcerned with whose problem you see it as, or whether or not you think I should be making true statements about the story if I can't be bothered to read it to you personally if you aren't already aware. The site functions on the approval or rejection of CRTs, so having a woefully unconvincing argument, or having an argument that relies on ignoring information that anyone who read the story would already have, is in fact your problem, because it means this CRT is probably going to go absolutely nowhere.
Read our second point. Plus, even those hypothetical people who "read the story" in your arguments, would have to provide scans and simply saying "the comics say this" is not an argument. Hitchen's Razor exist.

Lastly, be civil.
 
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