Lucifer, Dream, and Michael downgrade

[Transcending]

Lucifer Morningstar is popularly known as one of DC's top tier beings, with many even saying he's the second most powerful in the entire verse. However, as much as I love the character, I feel like he's been incredibly overhyped by people. The wiki is no exception. So in this thread I will go over his current justifications and explain why he, and in extension, some other Vertigo characters, need to be downgraded.

1: Time and Space are his extensions
This is cool and all but time and space being your extensions is nothing more than Low 2-C. I have no idea why this reason is given for him being 1-A

2: Capable of moving in and comprehending the boundless void beyond all extensions of space and time
The void was never stated to be beyond all extensions of space and time, only to be outside them, which isn't even enough for a normal qualitative superiority, let alone one for 1-A. Lucifer is also explicitly infinitesimal to it, so yeah.

Both scans from Lucifer #75

3: Escaped his function and went outside the Presence's plan, and destroyed Logos with a touch, the first word which sung all existence into being
Why would escaping the Presence's plan be 1-A? This was never explained in the profile. About Logos, why would existence in the context be 1-A? The given scan also mentions the universe, which, while may refer to the Multiverse, is not 1-A either way. Plus given the Logos stuff happened in The Silver City, I highly doubt it extends to Limbo and higher.

4: Scales above Dream of the Endless
This is where we start to branch out from Lucifer. Now I will discuss Dream

a) He, like the other Endless, is a primal truth encompassing every aspect of the Presence's creation, which contains 1-A realms like Limbo, Monitor Sphere and the Source Wall
This applies to the entire Endless, not just Dream, but why would the Presence's creation contain Limbo, Monitor Sphere, and the Source Wall? There's nothing suggesting it does, so this tiering makes no sense.

b) His oldest incarnation exists beyond space and time, in the space beyond space and space beneath space. His ship, which is made from a piece of The Dreaming sails outside of space or time , in nowhere and nothing outside of Destiny's Book. The aspects of Dream exist in a notional place, neither real or unreal
Existing beyond space and time doesn't mean a qualitative superiority over space and time. Hell, it doesn't even necessarily mean any superiority. Additionally, "space beyond space" and "space beneath space" straight out implies he isn't completely beyond space. Secondly, sailing outside space and time again doesn't need to refer to any superiority, let alone a qualitative superiority. I don't know why existing in a place neither real or unreal is even there, that gives no tier, let alone 1-A.

And remember, even a single qualitative superiority isn't enough for 1-A. So I think you can see my point.

5: Scales to Michael
And finally, we are at the end. Lucifer scales to Michael who's 1-A so Lucifer should also be 1-A right? WRONG, Michael isn't 1-A. The justifications given for scaling Michael to this tier is "Is the mightiest servant of the Presence. Renews every moment and atom of the Presence's creation which contains 1-A realms such as Limbo, Monitor Sphere and The Source Wall." I addressed the second point when I addressed Dream. As for the first point, why would being the mightiest servant of the Presence be 1-A? You would first need to prove Presence's other servants are 1-A.

Conclusion
Lucifer, Michael, and Dream are nowhere close to 1-A and should be severely downgraded.

 

[Beyond_transcending]

I agree with the OP

 

[LuciferDC099]

Since cosmology split didn't happen yet and we currently use a composite cosmology i'll base my arguments on composite DC cosmology.

a) He, like the other Endless, is a primal truth encompassing every aspect of the Presence's creation, which contains 1-A realms like Limbo, Monitor Sphere and the Source Wall
This applies to the entire Endless, not just Dream, but why would the Presence's creation contain Limbo, Monitor Sphere, and the Source Wall? There's nothing suggesting it does, so this tiering makes no sense.

Destiny of the Endless was shown to be at the top of the Multiversity Map and designer of the map explained that Destiny's book records everything in the map. It's just an extra explanation but if you still don't want use that tweet just because it's a designer statement then ok but Destiny is still at the top of the Multiverse so he still should scale to the entire Creation / Multiverse.

In Lucifer and Sandman it was stated multiple times that Destiny's book contains universe so it means that "universe" in the Vertigo comics means all of the Creation / Multiversity map.

So "time and space are extensions of the will" and "comprehending the nature of Void" should be removed because i don't think that comprehending the nature of a High 1-A realm counts as a 1-A feat (but i'm not very knowledgeable on tiering system so i can be wrong here). The rest stays.

 

[Beyond_transcending]

One of author said Destiny's position in Map is metaphorical IIRC.

"All of creation" in Vertigo's context doesn't refer to Multiverse' Map.

 

[Transcending]

One of author said Destiny's position in Map is metaphorical IIRC.

It's the same author he showed

 

[LuciferDC099]

I just posted designer's statement about Destiny's book recording everything in the map. If you want use that statement then "universe" or "creation" in Vertigo means the entire Map (because it was stated multiple times that Destiny's book contains "universe" or "creation"), if you don't want use that statement then you should take Destiny's position on the map as literal not methaporical and scale him to the entire map. Either way Vertigo top tiers should stay at 1-A for now.

 

[Beyond_transcending]

I just posted designer's statement about Destiny's book recording everything in the map. If you want use that statement then "universe" or "creation" in Vertigo means the entire Map (because it was stated multiple times that Destiny's book contains "universe" or "creation"), if you don't want use that statement then you should take Destiny's position on the map as literal not methaporical and scale him to the entire map. Either way Vertigo top tiers should stay at 1-A for now.

Which was metaphorical, author of Map coniformed it wasn't literal.

Um, and why'd "creation" in Vertigo refer to Map?

Why should they?

 

[Alonik]

Destiny scales to the entirety of the Map anyway, not that Lúcifer should be scaled above Destiny, since even in the recent comics when he threatened Destiny to take away the book he was still bluffing, since it would be an ontological paradox to remove the human-like Destiny from the Book, since it is the book itself, ergo the entire of the cosmology.

Another thing that has to be removed is the: Destroyed Logos with a touch. Logos is the first word which sung all of existence into being.

Besides the fact that the former is not the Logoz, but rather a tower that connected to the Logoz that is creation itself, the Sefer Haziel, the true Logoz, is a power that only Timothy Hunter could attain, and is portrayed as something beyond and above any archangel, regardless of who it was.

 

[Transcending]

Additionally, even if he was literally recording everything, recording something doesn't necessarily mean you scale to it. You can record something with some super-crazy awareness as well, without scaling to it.

 

[Transcending]

Destiny scales to the entirety of the Map anyway, not that Lúcifer should be scaled above Destiny, since even in the recent comics when he threatened Destiny to take away the book he was still bluffing, since it would be an ontological paradox to remove the human-like Destiny from the Book, since it is the book itself, ergo the entire of the cosmology.

Another thing that has to be removed is the: Destroyed Logos with a touch. Logos is the first word which sung all of existence into being.

Besides the fact that the former is not the Logoz, but rather a tower that connected to the Logoz that is creation itself, the Sefer Haziel, the true Logoz, is a power that only Timothy Hunter could attain, and is portrayed as something beyond and above any archangel, regardless of who it was.

So do you agree with downgrading Lucifer, Michael, and Dream?

 

[Alonik]

Which was metaphorical, author of Map coniformed it wasn't literal.

Um, and why'd "creation" in Vertigo refer to Map?

Why should they?

This here is a stretch of interpretation, since he records everything is just a metaphor in how he is an abstract concept that encompasses what is going to be, and this is within his own body.

 

[Alonik]

So do you agree with downgrading Lucifer, Michael, and Dream?

Yes, though these interpretations about Destiny are wrong, Lucifer just doesn't scale above it, and that's it.

 

[LuciferDC099]

Which was metaphorical, author of Map coniformed it wasn't literal.

Um, and why'd "creation" in Vertigo refer to Map?

Why should they?

Additionally, even if he was literally recording everything, recording something doesn't necessarily mean you scale to it. You can record something with some super-crazy awareness as well, without scaling to it.

You two really didn't understand me. Designer stated that his placement on the map is metaphorical because his book records everything in the Map. So it means that his book contains not just Orrery of Worlds but the entire Multiversity Map as his book records EVERYTHING. And it was stated multiple times that Destiny's book contains "universe" or "creation" in Vertigo comics so going by that designer's statement and the Multiversity Map we can conclude that "universe" and "creation" in Vertigo means the entire Map.

 

[LuciferDC099]

Yes, though these interpretations about Destiny are wrong, Lucifer just doesn't scale above it, and that's it.

My point isn't about scaling Lucifer to Destiny because it's not part of the this thread. My point is that "universe" in Vertigo means the entire Multiversity Map as it was stated multiple times that Destiny's book contains "universe" and from designer's statement and the map itself we know that Destiny records everything in the Map not just Orrery of Sphere of the Gods.

 

[Beyond_transcending]

Destiny scales to the entirety of the Map anyway, not that Lúcifer should be scaled above Destiny, since even in the recent comics when he threatened Destiny to take away the book he was still bluffing, since it would be an ontological paradox to remove the human-like Destiny from the Book, since it is the book itself, ergo the entire of the cosmology.

No, it was metaphorical. Lucifer wasn't bluffing in his 2018 run, since Destiny himself admitted Lucifer was more powerful.

Another thing that has to be removed is the: Destroyed Logos with a touch. Logos is the first word which sung all of existence into being.

OK, why is that 1-A?

This here is a stretch of interpretation, since he records everything is just a metaphor in how he is an abstract concept that encompasses what is going to be, and this is within his own body.

How's that relevant? My point was Destiny's position in Map was metaphorical.

You two really didn't understand me. Designer stated that his placement on the map is metaphorical because his book records everything in the Map. So it means that his book contains not just Orrery of Worlds but the entire Multiversity Map as his book records EVERYTHING. And it was stated multiple times that Destiny's book contains "universe" or "creation" in Vertigo comics so going by that designer's statement and the Multiversity Map we can conclude that "universe" and "creation" in Vertigo means the entire Map.

He didn't say "his book records everything" he just said it was metaphorical.

Again, why'd creation refer to Map? Unless you're saying Multiverse always refer to Map, which won't make sense given that Orrery has been referred as Multiverse as well.

My point isn't about scaling Lucifer to Destiny because it's not part of the this thread. My point is that "universe" in Vertigo means the entire Multiversity Map as it was stated multiple times that Destiny's book contains "universe" and from designer's statement and the map itself we know that Destiny records everything in the Map not just Orrery of Sphere of the Gods.

And why'd it refer to Map?

 

[Transcending]

OK, why is that 1-A?

He was explaining why the feat doesn't make Lucifer 1-A though

 

[LuciferDC099]

He didn't say "his book records everything" he just said it was metaphorical.

Can't you read?

"Destiny is just metaphorically above everything, recording."

Again, why'd creation refer to Map? Unless you're saying Multiverse always refer to Map, which won't make sense given that Orrery has been referred as Multiverse as well.

And why'd it refer to Map?

Yeah, just read my posts again. I won't explain it anymore since i'm tired of writing the same things again. It seems like you have problems with reading.

 

[Transcending]

Can't you read?

"Destiny is just metaphorically above everything, recording."

As I explained before, recording itself doesn't require you to scale to anything, it just requires you to have some super cosmic awareness. Containing everything, would actually mean you scale but not only does Destiny exist inside The Sphere(the map itself confirms that), so him containing things that are more than infinitely superior to the Sphere would be a contradiction, but Destiny's book was confirmed multiple times to not contain everything.

But even if Destiny's book did contain everything, that doesn't necessarily mean that Vertigo mentioning creation/universe always referred to the entire map. In main DC for example, Multiverse has been a term used to refer to the Orrery and the map. A term can refer to multiple things.

 

[Deagonx]

It seems as though the crux of this CRT is where the creation of the Presence scales to, and whether we are using composite DC.

why would the Presence's creation contain Limbo, Monitor Sphere, and the Source Wall? There's nothing suggesting it does, so this tiering makes no sense.

We also know from the Perpetua storyline that the Presence scales above Supercelestials and is coequal with the Source, who the Monitor Brothers and Supercelestials regard as their deity, etc. In composite canon, the Presence scales above the entire omniverse, so Limbo and the Monitor Sphere are not relevant.

As LuciferDC099 points out, there is no split cosmology yet, which means we are dealing with composite Presence. This includes the storylines equating him to the Source and the Overvoid, and the various statements that he is the strongest being. Lucifer scales to the Presence, and the Great Darkness as well. It would be reasonable, even, to scale these characters to the entire Omniverse given the Presence's dominion over all of it.

Even if we limited things just to Lucifer's storyline, the Source Wall is present in the story, so the Presence's creation also covers that.

 

[Transcending]

We also know from the Perpetua storyline that the Presence scales above Supercelestials and is coequal with the Source

That's the Divine Presence though.

In composite canon, the Presence scales above the entire omniverse, so Limbo and the Monitor Sphere are not relevant.

Why would where the Presence scales be relevant though

As LuciferDC099 points out, there is no split cosmology yet, which means we are dealing with composite Presence. This includes the storylines equating him to the Source and the Overvoid, and the various statements that he is the strongest being. Lucifer scales to the Presence

Lucifer doesn't exactly scale to the Presence. Even Presence's Yahweh form is stated to be immensely above him, forget the Divine Presence.

It would be reasonable, even, to scale these characters to the entire Omniverse given the Presence's dominion over all of it.

Why would Presence's dominion be equal to Presence's creation? Dream scales to the reality created by the Presence, not the one he rules over

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

It seems as though the crux of this CRT is where the creation of the Presence scales to, and whether we are using composite DC.


We also know from the Perpetua storyline that the Presence scales above Supercelestials and is coequal with the Source, who the Monitor Brothers and Supercelestials regard as their deity, etc. In composite canon, the Presence scales above the entire omniverse, so Limbo and the Monitor Sphere are not relevant.

As LuciferDC099 points out, there is no split cosmology yet, which means we are dealing with composite Presence. This includes the storylines equating him to the Source and the Overvoid, and the various statements that he is the strongest being. Lucifer scales to the Presence, and the Great Darkness as well. It would be reasonable, even, to scale these characters to the entire Omniverse given the Presence's dominion over all of it.

Even if we limited things just to Lucifer's storyline, the Source Wall is present in the story, so the Presence's creation also covers that.

Presence and Source are each other. The Presence is the Source taken a form as Synder agrees to the idea of the events of Lucifer happening in his story. I saw someone even admits if he was that faithful to the story. Lucifer and Michael are only 2nd to that. Then it still in for them to scale to the Presence. If needed be then all of DC should he downgraded......we all know the irony here.

 

[Deagonx]

That's the Divine Presence though.

The term "Divine Presence" is never used in that storyline, just "the Presence."

Lucifer doesn't exactly scale to the Presence.

Not 1:1, but he does scale to the Presence.

Why would Presence's dominion be equal to Presence's creation? Dream scales to the reality created by the Presence, not the one he rules over

Because the energy to create the Omniverse comes from the Presence.

 

[LuciferDC099]

As I explained before, recording itself doesn't require you to scale to anything, it just requires you to have some super cosmic awareness.

I didn't say recording = being superior or smth like that. My entire point is about Destiny's book and the term of "universe".

Containing everything, would actually mean you scale but not only does Destiny exist inside The Sphere(the map itself confirms that), so him containing things that are more than infinitely superior to the Sphere would be a contradiction, but Destiny's book was confirmed multiple times to not contain everything.

This is complete nonsense. Destiny existing in the Sphere doesn't mean that he's limited by the Sphere. Lucifer also exists in the SoG but he escaped Presence's plan and went to the Void.

But even if Destiny's book did contain everything, that doesn't necessarily mean that Vertigo mentioning creation/universe always referred to the entire map. In main DC for example, Multiverse has been a term used to refer to the Orrery and the map. A term can refer to multiple things.

There's plenty of moments where it's clear that "universe" refers to the "universe" inside of Destiny's book.

 

[Beyond_transcending]

Why are Divine Presence and Presence different here though? There's only been one mention of "Divine Presence" and all it said was Divine Presence views his creation as a dream and surpasses everything and everyone within it, which doesn't imply they're different, it'd just upscale The Presence.

 

[Deagonx]

Why are Divine Presence and Presence different here though? There's only been one mention of "Divine Presence" and all it said was Divine Presence views his creation as a dream and surpasses everything and everyone within it, which doesn't imply they're different, it'd just upscale The Presence.

Yeah, the separation between them is IMO complete headcanon and the term is never used aside from a single storyline.

 

[Transcending]

The term "Divine Presence" is never used in that storyline, just "the Presence."

The term "Yahweh" wasn't used in the storyline either. But either way, the profile explicitly equals the Divine Presence with the Source, so it can be deducted.

Not 1:1, but he does scale to the Presence.

Why?

Because the energy to create the Omniverse comes from the Presence.

Not really relevant. This is what the scan says-

oversee every aspect of the reality created by the supreme power

Presence giving the energy doesn't equate to him creating it. The creator is still Perpetua and that was stated multiple times. Dr. Fate once said it for example.

 

[Transcending]

Yeah, the separation between them is IMO complete headcanon and the term is never used aside from a single storyline.

I personally agree too

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

The term "Divine Presence" is never used in that storyline, just "the Presence."


Not 1:1, but he does scale to the Presence.


Because the energy to create the Omniverse comes from the Presence.

Why are Yahweh and The Divine Presence different. They are the same thing just as Yahweh is shaped by human belief. He still is that “Infinite” power. The real limit is how we define him in the context of Creation which he can make beings that can make it on a whim.

 

[Deagonx]

The term "Yahweh" wasn't used in the storyline either. But either way, the profile explicitly equals the Divine Presence with the Source, so it can be deducted.

I don't agree with that reasoning at all, and I think it's clear that Lucifer scales to the Presence.

Why?

He's said multiple times to be a huge part of his power, comparable in strength, etc.

Presence giving the energy doesn't equate to him creating it. The creator is still Perpetua and that was stated multiple times.

I don't believe that changes anything in the context of the story, and the creator of the multiverse has changed numerous times. In the current storyline the multiverse burst forth from the screams of the Great Darkness. Lucifer is the Great Darkness according to Dan Watters, so this would still be appropriate scaling.

 

[Beyond_transcending]

Why is Source beyond Perpetua's race?

 

[Deagonx]

Why is Source beyond Perpetua's race?

Perpetua's race work for the Source. They're regarded as agents of its will. "Hands of the Source." "Face the judgement of the Source."

The Monitor Brothers also invoke the name of the Source like a deity: "By the Source!" "May the Source save us all."

 

[LuciferDC099]

I don't agree with that reasoning at all, and I think it's clear that Lucifer scales to the Presence.


He's said multiple times to be a huge part of his power, comparable in strength, etc.

Yeah, in Lucifer (2000) #37 Lucifer stated that "he (Presence) gave us (Michael and Lucifer) power as great as his own".

Basically Michael + Lucifer = Presence. Also the fact that they together can create and shape an entire Creation outside of the Presence's Creation supports this claim.

 

[Transcending]

I don't agree with that reasoning at all, and I think it's clear that Lucifer scales to the Presence.

I don't agree with that reasoning either, but that's just how the wiki functions.

He's said multiple times to be a huge part of his power, comparable in strength, etc.

Of Divine Presence or Yahweh?

I don't believe that changes anything in the context of the story, and the creator of the multiverse has changed numerous times.

Creator of the Multiverse has changed numerous times, but since we are going composite atm, we go by current canon.

In the current storyline the multiverse burst forth from the screams of the Great Darkness.

I don't believe that is accurate. TGD only created the flaw, which is just the infinite universes. Perpetua created everything else.

Lucifer is the Great Darkness according to Dan Watters, so this would still be appropriate scaling.

I disagree with that interpretation based on Deadly Green. I think it makes more sense with Lucifer being an aspect instead.

 

[Beyond_transcending]

Perpetua's race work for the Source. They're regarded as agents of its will. "Hands of the Source." "Face the judgement of the Source."

The Monitor Brothers also invoke the name of the Source like a deity: "By the Source!" "May the Source save us all."

OK, but being agents for Source doesn't mean Source is beyond them. For example, your boss isn't necessarily stronger than you, but you still work for them.

Mar-Novu doesn't exactly scale to Perpetua, he's weaker than Barbatos, who's around 100 times weaker than Perpetua at least.

 

[Deagonx]

OK, but being agents for Source doesn't mean Source is beyond them. For example, your boss isn't necessarily stronger than you, but you still work for them.

This doesn't hold true for cosmic beings in comic books, and isn't a logical approximation of the relationship we are shown that they have.

Creator of the Multiverse has changed numerous times, but since we are going composite atm, we go by current canon.
I don't believe that is accurate. TGD only created the flaw, which is just the infinite universes. Perpetua created everything else.

The scan says "The darkness screamed. This [caused a flaw] in the Light. In that instant, the multiverse was born."

The scream of the darkness resulted in the creation of the multiverse, Perpetua had nothing to do with it in the current canon.

I disagree with that interpretation based on Deadly Green. I think it makes more sense with Lucifer being an aspect instead.

Why would we use an interpretation that conflicts what we already know?

 

[Beyond_transcending]

This doesn't hold true for cosmic beings in comic books, and isn't a logical approximation of the relationship we are shown that they have

Why not tho?

 

[Beyond_transcending]

Because it doesn't conflict previous comics. Great Darkness predates The Presence, who predates Lucifer.

 

[LuciferDC099]

OK, but being agents for Source doesn't mean Source is beyond them. For example, your boss isn't necessarily stronger than you, but you still work for them.

Are you serious? The source of Super Celestials' power is the Source / Presence as it was clearly stated in Dark Nights: Death Metal #1. If their source of power is the Source / Presence then they're inferior to the Source / Presence. It's very simple.

Also that cosmic raptor sent by Judges of the Source imprisoned Perpetua easily. So the Source / Presence > Judges of the Source > Cosmic Raptor > Perpetua.

 

[Beyond_transcending]

Are you serious? The source of Super Celestials' power is the Source / Presence as it was clearly stated in Dark Nights: Death Metal #1. If their source of power is the Source / Presence then they're inferior to the Source / Presence. It's very simple.

I am. Source isn't Source of their power, he only created connective energy, which isn't even all of Perpetua's powers. Why'd that mean they're inferior?

Also that cosmic raptor sent by Judges of the Source imprisoned Perpetua easily. So the Source / Presence > Judges of the Source > Cosmic Raptor > Perpetua.

Raptor beat Perpetua by sealing, not AP. Not to mention, she was outright beyond Raptor in JL 34 or 35, don't remember exact issue though.

 

[Deagonx]

Are you serious? The source of Super Celestials' power is the Source / Presence as it was clearly stated in Dark Nights: Death Metal #1. If their source of power is the Source / Presence then they're inferior to the Source / Presence. It's very simple.

Also that cosmic raptor sent by Judges of the Source imprisoned Perpetua easily. So the Source / Presence > Judges of the Source > Cosmic Raptor > Perpetua.

I wish I could like this twice. It's tedious to have to painstakingly explain things that are obvious in the storyline. Saying something like "well what if they all work for the Source and consider it their God, but it's actually weaker than all of them" is just a waste of everyone's time.

Because it doesn't conflict previous comics. Great Darkness predates The Presence, who predates Lucifer.

I disagree. The Darkness is required for the Light to existence as a defined entity. Unless we are imagining that the Light randomly appeared for no reason, it's clear that the division between the Light and the Darkness was an action that the Presence took ("Let there be Light") to define himself as an existent being. There is no darkness without light, and vice versa.