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Low 7-B Tournament - Reflux (Rayman) vs Paldean Wooper (Pokémon)
- Thread starter Armorchompy
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wopar
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Wooper FRA
Kazuma_kuwabara
She/Her- 4,435
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For now I am sending his boss fights so everyone can see how all of his powers works visually
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Agreed. Best boi sweeps.
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Wooper's moves because his profile is dogshit and only list Quag's moves (Excluding TM's, I don't think we count them).
(Bolded means they get the same type attack bonus and are about 50% more powerful).
Yes, I did, in fact, copy paste this off bulbapedia 
(Bolded means they get the same type attack bonus and are about 50% more powerful).
| 1 | Mud Shot | 55 | 95% | 15 | ||
| 1 | Tail Whip | — | 100% | 30 | ||
| 4 | Tackle | 40 | 100% | 35 | ||
| 8 | Poison Tail | 50 | 100% | 25 | ||
| 12 | Toxic Spikes | — | —% | 20 | ||
| 16 | Slam | 80 | 75% | 20 | ||
| 21 | Yawn | — | —% | 10 | ||
| 24 | Poison Jab | 80 | 100% | 20 | ||
| 28 | Sludge Wave | 95 | 100% | 10 | ||
| 32 | Amnesia | — | —% | 20 | ||
| 36 | Toxic | — | 90% | 10 | ||
| 40 | Earthquake | 100 |
Acid Spray | 40 | 100% | 20 | |||
| After You | — | —% | 15 | |||
  | Ancient Power | Rock | 60 | 100% | 5 | |
| Counter | — | 100% | 20 | |||
| Curse | — | —% | 10 | |||
| Double Kick | 30 | 100% | 30 | |||
| Haze | Ice | — | —% | 30 | ||
| Mist | Ice | — | —% | 30 | ||
| Recover | — | —% | 5 | |||
| Spit Up | — | 100% | 10 | |||
| Stockpile | — | —% | 20 | |||
| Swallow |
Kazuma_kuwabara
She/Her- 4,435
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This is the new Wooper?
Because then he has no resistance to fire, which would balance the AP in his favor
Because then he has no resistance to fire, which would balance the AP in his favor
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Wooper does have healing though and ways to buff its defenses so while he is at a stat disadvantage, it can be mitigated and overcome if it uses the right moves, and it does have status moves such as poisoning and sleep (the former I'm assuming is more in-character given how Quag is described as fighting). Wooper could attempt to poison Reflux and stall.
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idk why i said quag, i meant clod, im a fake pooper fan, plz forgive me
Kazuma_kuwabara
She/Her- 4,435
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If you saw or are seeing the videos, the first boss fight is his usual powers
The second is when he is blessed by a god, nothing important from that, but he could adapt to minor hax like poisoning and the way his body works is extremely weird, as he is compose by lums/hoodlums, so if Wooper poisons him, he can expel the lum that is poisoned as he does in the fourth phase when attacked by Rayman gunship and starts regaining hoodlums to heal itself
But first, he has to poison him, and he has a permanent barrier that he only drops when attacking, if he was a electric type, that barrier is weak to electrical attacks, no idea if that barrier can stop things like Leer, it has power nullification on that but it never interacted with something like that, if anything, it stops the sound, but I also posted this on the rayman forum so more people can give his opinion
The second is when he is blessed by a god, nothing important from that, but he could adapt to minor hax like poisoning and the way his body works is extremely weird, as he is compose by lums/hoodlums, so if Wooper poisons him, he can expel the lum that is poisoned as he does in the fourth phase when attacked by Rayman gunship and starts regaining hoodlums to heal itself
But first, he has to poison him, and he has a permanent barrier that he only drops when attacking, if he was a electric type, that barrier is weak to electrical attacks, no idea if that barrier can stop things like Leer, it has power nullification on that but it never interacted with something like that, if anything, it stops the sound, but I also posted this on the rayman forum so more people can give his opinion
Kazuma_kuwabara
She/Her- 4,435
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Reflux does not have arms? https://ibb.co/sVB3r6F
Kazuma_kuwabara
She/Her- 4,435
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Black Lums does not have arms and Reflux in his mutated form is composed of them at least
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Could he though? Absolutely nothing on the profile implies he can adapt to being poisoned (Especially pokemon poison, that shit is pretty potent, let alone Toxic which Woper learns naturally), the closest thing is that he could adapt wings but that's completely incomparable to adapting to being poisoned. There's also Yawn though too, should Wooper's initial options fail, it could use Yawn to put Reflux to sleep and give it some time to get moves off. The woopers in the marsh area have yawn too iirc so it isn't out of character for it to be used eventually.
As for expelling it, could he? His profile actually states he needs them to return eventually so even if he could, it'd be a minor delay, not a permanent solution.
Wooper has poison point, toxic spikes, and several moves that can inflict poison such as Toxic, Sludge Wave, Poison Jab, etc. It shouldn't be hard, it'd likely happen the moment he hits Wooper, or is hit by any of Wooper's main poison moves, Slude Wave is particularly nasty given it's an AOE move that floods the area with poison.
Oh yeah, Wooper has stat debuffs, that's also an issue, assuming Wooper makes use of his buff/debuffing moves, he could make the stat advantage swing into his favor with about a 4x advantage. I doubt he'd lead with it, but assuming the fight goes on for awhile, I could see that coming into play, especially as Wooper has means to prolong the fight with recover, yawn, and other such things.
I'll look up moves that can bypass protect tho, maybe Wooper has some moves that can bypass it.
Kazuma_kuwabara
She/Her- 4,435
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When he ejects those, you have to kill them to stop Reflux for healing
And he normally ejects a large amount, but nothing stops him for ejecting the poisoned one and let´s say he can only eject a large amount, the poisoned one would die before returning to the body
The first one is weird because If I remember right, conkeldurr could be poisoned if he hits you with his column, but normally Reflux NEVER attacks physically, like, the only time would be his gigant punches in his gigant form, that is, the rest would be proyectiles or staffs attacks
Toxic has to surpass the barrier/be used when attacking and the rest of attacks the same, and except toxic, the rest are % based so Wooper with his limited intelligence has to understand how Reflux works, maybe he can do it, but first stages are "newbies" compared to the real last stage pokemon, maybe he understand that Reflux is using protect but it works different, because is a permanent one except when attacking, which makes no sense in Pokemon at least, but I can buy him stalling and doing his usual tactics of course
Probably less as Reflux tank several x2 attacks of rayman, is inmune to those with barriers and grows stronger to the point of tanking missiles from Rayman in his weakpoint, but he would be stronger , x2 at minimun, x4 at max
And Reflux eventually dies when his hoodlooms are destroyed, which are destroyed by directly destroying them if he ejects them to heal himself or damaging the body, which would destroy at least one if the attack is strong enough, and hitting his weakpoint will cause even more damage, you can kill him in gameplay even if you don´t destroy hoodlums that were ejected, but it will be time consuming
Kazuma_kuwabara
She/Her- 4,435
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I am scared of Chariot
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And if the poison spreads throughout? Or if he's engulfed by toxic or sludge wave? How can eject the poisoned ones if they're all poisoned?
And if they die, what then? That's one less he has, which eventually adds up and can even lead to his defeat.
That's fine, it's just one of like 8 ways Wooper can poison, that one being contact based.
Toxic effectively spawns ontop of the opponent
Correct, but we're also not working on game logic, it isn't like they're going by turns, Wooper can spam them. A sludge wave would swamp the area with poison, or if it's anything like the anime, the "chance" to poison is very, very, high as seen with Palpitoad's.
He might not be that smart, but it is Gifted in battle. Almost all Pokemon are hardwired for battle and excel in tricky situations and are quick to adapt on the fly (I say almost tho, obviously shit like Slowpoke and Venomoth in particular are dumb as shit). I don't think Wooper is going to have much trouble figuring out that he can only be harmed when it attacks, and as such would likely use that invulnerability time buffing itself instead, so when it does get the chance to attack, its attacks will be far more brutal and potent, and as we know, it does seem to like poisoning as an actual in-character tactic so setting up toxic spikes and toxic on the vulnerable phases would help it drastically given Toxic's poison is exponential and very quickly kill or incap a foe.
I just did the actual math, at maximum stat fuckery on both sides (Stage 6 drops and buffs), Wooper would have a maximum net gain of around 5.8x in advantage (Accounting for both def drops, and its own buffs and factoring in his initial disadvantage, basically a 3x buff and a 3x debuff). This is very, very, bad. That's almost a one-shot, and given Wooper has multiple AOE attacks like Earthquake and Sludge Wave (Former AOE is massive), if Wooper is given the chance to buff up it could be disastrous.
I'd also wager that forcefield or not, it won't stop Wooper's debuff moves as they aren't exactly damaging or corporal attacks that a forcefield would stop, like why would it stop Tail Whip for example? I mean if it has feats of preventing more abstract attacks like that then it's fine, but does he?
Is that so? Wooper using poison tactics, atop of powerful AOE like Earthquake, Sludge Wave, or even Ancient Power (Which has a small chance to boost every one of Wooper's stats, including speed, though it's so low I wouldn't use that as an actual wincondition) to take out many at once could be problematic, doubly so if Wooper had been given a chance to buff. And if Reflux can be defeated eventually due to lack of Hoodlooms, the poison tactic even if he can't poison them all at once will quickly catch up.
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Usually Toxic is portrayed as a jet or projectile of poison so I'd say it's dodgeable
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ive seen people in matches say Darkrai's Dark Void is a spawn attack because that's how it works in game, even though the anime had it as like a danmaku projectile and when I brought that up i was called fake and gay and to cope
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Because of the uncomposite thread, we now go with what the game shows.
If we made an anime profile for woopster, then we would go with how the anime portray attacks for em.
If we made an anime profile for woopster, then we would go with how the anime portray attacks for em.
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So game > anime?
Well that's good then, nothing I said hinges on the anime adaptionexcept that one-off palpi mention but that ultimately doesn't affect anything
not that im complaining, this saves me like 100 hours of work on the slither profile
Well that's good then, nothing I said hinges on the anime adaption
not that im complaining, this saves me like 100 hours of work on the slither profile
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Pretty much. We now don't even use anime feats for scaling the games.
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Kazuma_kuwabara
She/Her- 4,435
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No idea how it works because hoodlums are weird, and hoodlums itself are a group of black lums with fabric of animals
The tornado of flames is the only exception to that rule though, in the first video you can see him spinning in flames, I won´t count the shockwave as in that fight Rayman can´t even damage Reflux normally and he attacks him when exhausted which makes no sense compared to his second fight when he is indeed able to damage him when not exhausted
Also, I have one "problem" and I have to ask, Reflux attack speed is bonkers compared to the rest of his speed, is that fair? He is MFTL+ attacking, but that is not his combat speed, is the speed of his proyectiles and probably how fast he goes while spinning
If that is too much then I will gladly retire for the tournament, I want it fair, but I don´t know if extremely fast proyectiles are fair or not
I went to his profile and he has enough range to destroy all of the hoodlums which would cause in the fourth phase to drop his health by gameplay at least 60% or even more as not even speedrunners can destroy ALL, it would be 2 cycles of that, Wooper is going to get the WR at this point
I read the rest of your post, I am thinking right now and I would answer tomorrow as I have to sleep
Edit: And in the final phases, Reflux is constantly flying, no more earth moves, poison can work but Reflux is using telekinesis to move the whole battlefield and if Wooper does not leave said battlefield, he gets EE
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How common and telegraphed? We have people with homing attacks so some auto-hits aren't necessarily ban-worthy (wooper has that too anyways)
Kazuma_kuwabara
She/Her- 4,435
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At least no one of his proyectiles are homing at least
And the more damage, the more proyectiles he throws in his second boss fight, in the first are just harder to dodge
The videos answers the question to be honest
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Oh, so I'm assuming we're in need of some replacement LS calcs then give they aren't scaling off Mantyke anymore?
Poison is goopy/liquidy. Should work.
I'm sure Wooper can avoid what is essentially Fire Spin. The rest, well I'm not sure how that factors in?
Wouldn't that just be combat speed if both his attacks and physical spinning are both that fast.
I mean, they are what they are, but I'm not Armor, I'd say as long as he doesn't spam like 50 million before leaving himself open Wooper could manage, otherwise bruh what the ****.
Ogey
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Yes. Stuff is outdated af now.
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Wow chariot just called you a really bad word Kuwabara. that's pretty f*cked up how do you feel about it. I can see what he said and wow that's like all slurs at once or worse i don't even know how he did it but it's messed up.
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Easy fix. I'll deal with that when I drop SW profile in like two years.
They're ******* lucky that's all I said
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Also, forgive me if someone else mentioned this, but Reflux has multiple layers of force fields in his final form. As far as Black Lums/Hoodlums, if Black Lums are anything like other types of Lums, then they are completely made of energy and I’m not sure if they would even be affected by poison. I’m not sure if expelling a poisoned Hoodlum would work or not.
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Pokemon poison works on basically anything that isn't made of metal, even energy beings and ghosts. Essentially everything that isn't a robot or metal-based.
As for the first bit, do the force fields go down when he attacks still? If so nothing changes (Can the forcefields be broken btw? Assuming Wop roids out on amnesia or something?).
As for the first bit, do the force fields go down when he attacks still? If so nothing changes (Can the forcefields be broken btw? Assuming Wop roids out on amnesia or something?).
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Poison pokémon can affect stuff like Rotom, which is made of electricity, or even Porygon, who is made up of data. Even Regidrago, who is made up from (draconic) energy can be affected by poison types.
Edit: Ninja'd lol
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That was more of a limitation that happened before he was empowered by Leptys. Though it looks like the forcefields technically only cover the scepter in the final boss fight.
As for the poison, fair enough. It can probably affect him, though I’m still not sure if expelling a Hoodlum would work.
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When & where was that thread, BTW?
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Part 1 (establishing standards)
Part 2 (putting standards into practice
The revision is still on going. Part 2 already finished with ironing out the Game profile standards (there wasn't much to change to profiles, really), but then completely stopped. Anime and alternate game profiles have yet to iron out these new standards (nor work has been done on them).
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bump
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