Low 7-B Tournament - Reflux (Rayman) vs Paldean Wooper (Pokémon)

[Chariot190]

The speed at which an attack moves. For example, X character is hypersonic, but he can do an attack that is a natural beam of light, the speed for the attack is different from the speed of the user, hence the attack would be lightspeed even if its user isn't.

At this point, I don´t know what Reflux has as combat speed and attack speed, I will drop it and let a Rayman supporter say what moves are "attack speed" because I am getting confused

If both attack speed and his reactions are MFTL, that's just combat speed

Andre is creating more hoodlums as the fight goes on, is not regeneration because it works on energy, without energy, gg, dead, that is why he dies, but for now, let´s focus on literally the first phase as you think he wins in that phase if he gets toxic

Then it's not even remotely a long term solution. What's stopping Wooper from just using Toxic again? It's basically free, it spawns atop him.

First phase: How is he gonna land an attack on Reflux who has danmaku,

Dodge. Heal it off. Buff his defenses. Use yawn to put him to sleep. Toxic works at range.

that increases the more damage he sustains t (so even if toxic lands, he then proceeds to beats him thanks to that damage)

Dodge. heal it off. Buf his defenses. Use yawn to put him to sleep. Toxic works at range
Or something like Sludge Wave to blow back the projectiles as Imag said (it's an omnidirectional attack that emits from Wooper's body).

that is surely MFTL+ compared to the combat speed of both and then heals himself by stabbing himself with the scepter like he did in the fight?

Speed equal brother, you literally JUST said he punches at MFTL speeds too. If he's throwing hands at MFTL and is reacting to Rayman and shooing beams at MFTL, that's literally just combat speed, just because he has low movement doesn't change that.

If not danmakuing, he is then using a forcefield that even if it looks "one way" you can´t DAMAGE ANY KNAAREN in gameplay with that forcefield, you attack him from behind? It won´t work, it has the forcefield, and I will even play the game to get proof of this if necessary (Unless youtube has a video of someone being bad at trying to damage a Knaaren)

That just means the forcefield always faces you, not that it doesn't work oneway? As I just said, Wooper has numerous attacks that have tremendous AOE, it'll hit him regardless.
Danmaku ain't that tough to dodge (mostly because the gaps are huge).

Toxic would legitimately kill him off within like 20 seconds or whatever, it only takes "8 turns", aka, 8 attacks to completely KO. Even less if he takes any damage at all.

Toxic is a proyectile by some games and in other it spawns of you, the forcefield still protects Reflux and if not, 90% accuracy or it has to land while the attack can be destroyed or has to surpass a his tornado of fire

As established dozens of posts ago, we're using the spawn one. That's how it's depicted in the only game Wooper is in (SV).
90% accuracy means he wins 90% of the time, assuming he just doesn't try again.

The attack can't be destroyed nor does it need to bypass a fire spin, as it just coats him.

At this point, if the attack is literally different from game to game, I find it less credible

You even had a staff saying that's how it works here, blame the decompositing idk.

, also the fact that wooper can use moves while being bombarded

Yeah? Why wouldn't it? It can dodge? It can use moves while dodging, a lot of its moves are far harder for Reflux to avoid, it can also just buff itself and heal. It even has HIGHER range, so if they fight at range, it's going to be Reflux who's gonna need to worry about dodging, not Wooper.

And by gameplay in the first phase, he does not drop said forcefield but I am giving it the benefit of "gameplay" as the Player has already fight normal reflux and to make it more interesting, you know has to destroy it with electricity, which was not available in the first fight

Again, Wooper has multiple attacks that bypass it. And tbf, Rayman can just beat it up in phase 2 so I wouldn't say electricity is the ONLY way.

Sludge wave with the barrier, and Earthquake would destroy the battlefield but the forcefield can technically protect him? The fact that now this battle has to be "game only" makes me confused about a lot of things, because earthquake animation destroys the whole battlefield

Sludge Wave is a massive wave that "Swamps the whole battlefield". It's going to hit him as the forcefield only works one way, sure it'll protect the front, but it can't protect the front, back, and side, beneath him, above him and more all a the same time. Earthquake is the same, it's hitting the forcefield, behind it, and everything inbetween. And while you said you can hit him from behind and it'll protect, that's because it just turns to face you, it doesn't protect all directions simutaneously.

Also, the range feats are using gameplay only? Because how is mud slap kilometers on range? Just questioning

**** if I know, I didn't make the profile, I'd assume it'd be at least tens to hundreds of meters tho. Equake I get having multi-km range at least.

Wooper can upscale with certain moves and buffs, but naturally Reflux can literally tank Rayman AP with extremely ease, even if Rayman use attacks that are x2 his usual AP, attacks that are charged up and that was normal Reflux, this is mutated and his other forms are even stronger

As Imag stated above, Wooper can buff itself by 4x, and debuff Reflux by 4x. If the battle drags on (which if it does, he'd get many chances to do so, especially if it realizes it's at a disadvantage in stats thanks to its own healing). That's nearly an 8x net swing at max potential.
And even with just one or two buffs, that's a whole 1.5x difference. One buff and one debuff gives Wooper a 2x advantage. One Amnesia makes Wooper 2x any danmaku or magic, etc.
That is larger than Rayman's 2x, substantially so.

Then you take into account toxic, sleep status and other such things, or even counter (a move that deals 2x the damage wooper took back onto the foe). It doesn't need to use them in a row or perfectly, like if it's getting bombarded, why wouldn't it use yawn? Or if it's getting hit, why not use counter? It's able to survive a handful of attacks naturally, it can retaliate just fine.

Wooper can upscale with certain moves and buffs, but naturally Reflux can literally tank Rayman AP with extremely ease, even if Rayman use attacks that are x2 his usual AP, attacks that are charged up and that was normal Reflux, this is mutated and his other forms are even stronger

A lot of Wooper's attacks have notable effects, like Acid Spray literally halving its durability 50% of the time (in giant form, one or two of these would completely negate this point), have poison, or other notable effects.
Wooper has numerous ways to negate any stat advantage, a lot of which would happen naturally as the fight goes on, it isn't just Wooper being able to buff itself (Yawn is also good and leaves it highly vulnerable, yawn being a visual constant move so no dodging it. Wild Woopers have this naturally too), but it can cripple Reflux too, assuming Toxic doesn't just net a win.

The beginning of the fight is nightmare to Wooper, if he survives and can land everything he wins, but is % based and when working with % I don´t have an opinion of who wins

Is it? I'd argue that's the best chance it has. If it starts in Phase 1, a simple toxic wins him the fight, he'd just need to last a few """"turns"""" which should be feasible given dodging, healing, and so on.
It's a 90% chance, it ain't no stone edge or focus blast.

And the heat in my country is making me sick so I can´t even think properly right now, bad time to participate in tournaments

my ac broke last night and had to have repair dudes come at like midnight to fix it

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

I will only address now that Reflux combat speed is not MFTL+ for what his page says, only his attack speed

Other profiles has "combat speed" instead of mere "attack speed" so I am understanding that his combat speed is way lower than some of his attacks, I guess is his proyectiles or when he is fire spinning

my ac broke last night

Your ac? I don't know what is that but I am sorry to hear that, wish you the best edit: Ok, air conditioner, that is brutal

 

[Chariot190]

I will only address now that Reflux combat speed is not MFTL+ for what his page says, only his attack speed

Other profiles has "combat speed" instead of mere "attack speed" so I am understanding that his combat speed is way lower than some of his attacks, I guess is his proyectiles or when he is fire spinning

It's probably just a product of the profile being ten fucktillion years old and the fact his actual movement speed is tremendously slow comparatively. But if blud is shooting beams, throwing punches, and can even react/perceive other MFTL stuff like Rayman, that's just combat speed

I mean I get wanting to stick to profiles but if that's the case half your arguments aren't even on the profile like ejecting to heal but come on brother.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

but if that's the case half your arguments aren't even on the profile like ejecting to heal

If you see the video, you can see that Reflux ejects the hoodloms, and if you don't kill then, he heals himself, in his profile is accounted as creation/summoning instead of healing for whatever reason, if I decide to play the game to get footage, I should also see if letting him get hoodloms gives him health

And in gameplay no one can dodges Rayman punches(in that game, I won´t even think of other games right now because in Rayman 2 he is not even punching and combat is extremely limited there and in rayman 1 is a ******* 2d Plaftorm so how they are gonna dodge in 2d?), the best they can do is reflect when knowing that Rayman is charging an attack (fodder hoodloms) and other just accept their fate

It's probably just a product of the profile being ten fucktillion years old

1 year old, and Reflux also has MHS thunder attacks that are accounted instead of all of his attack, right now, waiting Rayman supporters because I am not a bible of Rayman to understand their decisions in the ratings

 

[Chariot190]

If you see the video, you can see that Reflux ejects the hoodloms, and if you don't kill then, he heals himself, in his profile is accounted as creation/summoning instead of healing for whatever reason, if I decide to play the game to get footage, I should also see if letting him get hoodloms gives him health

Yeah, I watched it, but the profile doesn't say that? If you're adhering strictly to the profile, a lot of what yu said he can't do, I'm giving you the benefit here.
I also watched the video and that's how I know that speed discrepancy is sus as ****.
he also goes completely frozen when he does the hoodlum thing too, which is a death sentence, like 1 sludge wave/equake would neg the hoodlums given they kinda fodder, and he could just toxic him again while he's immobile, in which he'd die long before re-energizing

And in gameplay no one can dodges Rayman punches(in that game, I won´t even think of other games right now because in Rayman 2 he is not even punching and combat is extremely limited there and in rayman 1 is a ***** 2d Plaftorm so how they are gonna dodge in 2d?), the best they can do is reflect when knowing that Rayman is charging an attack (fodder hoodloms) and other just accept their fate

Reflecting is still reacting.

1 year old, and Reflux also has MHS thunder attacks that are accounted instead of all of his attack, right now, waiting Rayman supporters because I am not a bible of Rayman to understand their decisions in the ratings

no way that profile is 1 year old, it doesnt even have refs
Not sure why, given the lightning attacks are just as fast as everything else.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Reflecting is still reacting.

Starting to reflect while Rayman is just moving his fist and preparing to launch it? That is reacting to his movement, not his attack

no way that profile is 1 year old, it doesnt even have refs

Ok, I read it again to see if I was right and no, is 4 years old and since the beginning, he had the same speed values

So now I am waiting the supporters to see their logic, I though the speed revision was after his profile creating, not before

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

See you in 5 hours after I finish the Rayman 3 speedrun to get footage btw

 

[Mantidil]

Ok, I read it again to see if I was right and no, is 4 years old and since the beginning, he had the same speed values

So now I am waiting the supporters to see their logic, I though the speed revision was after his profile creating, not before

Tbh, the speed on the Rayman profiles probably need to be revised. If Reflux scales to the Solar System level feat, then he would likely also scale to the MFTL feat. If we are making him Small City level in this matchup, I’m honestly not sure if it should be used.

Yeah, I watched it, but the profile doesn't say that? If you're adhering strictly to the profile, a lot of what yu said he can't do, I'm giving you the benefit here.
I also watched the video and that's how I know that speed discrepancy is sus as *****.
he also goes completely frozen when he does the hoodlum thing too, which is a death sentence, like 1 sludge wave/equake would neg the hoodlums given they kinda fodder, and he could just toxic him again while he's immobile, in which he'd die long before re-energizing

Tbf Rayman can’t really hurt him while he’s in that state from what I remember, and he gets out of that state regardless if the Hoodlums heal him.

 

[Chariot190]

Starting to reflect while Rayman is just moving his fist and preparing to launch it? That is reacting to his movement, not his attack

Surely you aren't arguing Rayman pulling his hand back to puch and his punch itself are 10,000,000,000,000,000x different in speed?

Tbf Rayman can’t really hurt him while he’s in that state from what I remember, and he gets out of that state regardless if the Hoodlums heal him.

He can't (though that's because he can't hit the weak point), but that doesn't mean anything here, he's completely vulnerable, has no defenses, won't dodge, can't attack, and is immobile. Wooper just poisons him again but this time he has no out and just dies a handful of seconds later. If Wooper had previously buffed or debuffed him, attack is an option, and he could still use moves like acid spray to attack the main body anyway to debuff his durability making him even more vulnerable (Acid Spray has a chance to halve durability, 50% of the time, every time).

And then once he absorbs the hoodlums back, he's poisoned again except way worse, or they've all died and he just hurt himself by making himself openly vulnerable to getting attacked and status'd a bunch (such as poisoned, again).

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Surely you aren't arguing Rayman pulling his hand back

Rayman punches are proyectiles that he normally charge for a second or two before launching said attack, if the enemy capable or countering that attack is seeing you charging the attack, he is already moving his staff to reflect said punch

If Rayman throws a curve attack, then said enemy is completely ****** up, as he is deflecting his front, not his sides

Or the final option, extreme game mechanics as why Rayman is not stomping everyone with just breathing, or how the most powerfull hoodlum is even more powerfull than Reflux by the fact that Rayman using x2 attacks can damage Reflux when he is tired but can´t do anything to the armor of said hoodlum

And the problem of Rayman doing the MFTL+ in another game and having to scale everyone to him

After reading everything, I have 2 options, or leave the tournament and let the Rayman supporters fix things (the same with Wooper can be applied) or let people vote

 

[CrackerVolley]

I'm not reading all of this. What's the current main points of the two?

 

[Mantidil]

Is speed equalization an option if speed is an issue?

 

[Chariot190]

Rayman punches are proyectiles that he normally charge for a second or two before launching said attack, if the enemy capable or countering that attack is seeing you charging the attack, he is already moving his staff to reflect said punch

Lad, in every video you linked, the punch itself isn't ten fucktillion times above everything else, they aren't even hitscan.
If the enemy can react to them, at all, well it speaks for itself.

If Rayman throws a curve attack, then said enemy is completely ***** up, as he is deflecting his front, not his sides

That goes for any attack ever.

Or the final option, extreme game mechanics as why Rayman is not stomping everyone with just breathing, or how the most powerfull hoodlum is even more powerfull than Reflux by the fact that Rayman using x2 attacks can damage Reflux when he is tired but can´t do anything to the armor of said hoodlum

You're taking the game mechanics argument a wee bit far, I highly doubt that in lore the punches are infinitely above everything else he does, how is it conveyed in cutscenes?

And the problem of Rayman doing the MFTL+ in another game and having to scale everyone to him

Isn't that exactly what's happening?

After reading everything, I have 2 options, or leave the tournament and let the Rayman supporters fix things (the same with Wooper can be applied) or let people vote

I'm just rolling with how it's treated brother the pokemon nerds mostly left

Though I still don't see how he can stop toxic without putting himself in an even worse situation.

I'm not reading all of this. What's the current main points of the two?

Idk, there seems to be some profile issues now.
We've gone over a lot stuff tho, atm the main point of contention is if Toxic could hit past the forcefield, and how he can remove toxic safely.

 

[Chariot190]

Is speed equalization an option if speed is an issue?

Speed is equalized, the issue is that the "attacks" and JUST the attacks, are faster than his "combat speed", which is what gets equalized.
im of the belief tho that the attacks are his combat speed given it also applies to his physical attacks like punching as stated by Kuwa

 

[Armorchompy]

bump

 

[Ret_of_Guys]

what is going on here

 

[Armorchompy]

wish i knew

 

[CrackerVolley]

So do these barriers break with enough damage or what?

 

[Chariot190]

So do these barriers break with enough damage or what?

Enough continuous damage it looks like.

 

[CrackerVolley]

Hm, earthquake and sludge wave seem like pretty decent options for breaking the barrier that would allow Wooper to focus on avoiding projectiles (until Reflux's final form due to true flight).

 

[Chariot190]

Equake and Sludewave are two of the moves that don't need to really bother with it. The forcefield is more like a giant captain america shield, it faces the foe to protect and is pretty big, but it only protects one way, in theory if you drop a nuke on them, it's not going to be able to protect him from all sides.
As such I'm of the belief that large AOE moves like that would just bypass it.

Should also note that to transform, he needs to use the scepter and when he does so his main body doesn't have the forcefield and it's only protecting the scepter.
tbh I just think wooper poisons him in phase 1 where he can't heal it and he just dies long before ever transforming 2+ times

 

[Armorchompy]

So uh, Bambu voted for Reflux, any other votes I missed?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Following.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Following

Man this match was so hard to keep up with that I followed twice.

 

[CrackerVolley]

I guess I'll vote for Wooper if the voting process is starting. It doesn't seem like there's any attacks Rayman acquires in Hoodlum Havoc that would qualify as status effect inducement (the blue can power up apparently gives him electric shocks, but that's about it) so there's not much to justify Reflux's barrier blocking Toxic. So that combined with Wooper's healing and self-buffing could let him survive far better as long as they could survive the first minute or two.

 

[Chariot190]

the blue can power up apparently gives him electric shocks

Wooper is "immune" to electric type attacks

 

[CrackerVolley]

Yeah, that's Rayman's ability, so it doesn't matter.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Hoodlum Havoc that would qualify as status effect

Rayman tornados can make enemies shrink in size

 

[CrackerVolley]

Ok, I looked into that and it seems like you are correct about that, but I do have a few questions.

It seems like most of the enemies in Rayman 3 are hoodlums, who are actually just black lums hiding in big costumes. So, is it possible that the tornados are just revealing their true forms, or are there examples of enemies that go tiny from the tornados.

Alongside that, is Rayman able to use these power-ups in his fights against Reflux?

 

[Chariot190]

Rayman tornados can make enemies shrink in size

That is not the same as toxic which can affect biological, ghosts, and elemental entities and defeat them within a few attacks length of time.

And the tornadoes are still blocked by him are they not? If not, that just means he resists size manip. This doesn't grant him the ability to resist anything but that.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

That is not the same as toxic which can affect biological, ghosts, and elemental entities and defeat them within a few attacks length of time.

That tornado is affecting black lums that are pure energy and other rayman abilities affects ghost and nightmares from Rayman 2 (and there are also ghosts in rayman 3 but the tornado would just one hit kill them)

The elemental entities I remember the bosses of rayman 2 but don´t quote me on that because I only like 1 and 3

who are actually just black lums hiding in big costumes. So, is it possible that the tornados are just revealing their true forms, or are there examples of enemies that go tiny from the tornados.

The tornados does not reveal the black lums, the whole costume becomes tiny

Alongside that, is Rayman able to use these power-ups in his fights against Reflux?

He can´t affect Knaarens with tornados, Reflux is a Knaaren

 

[Chariot190]

That tornado is affecting black lums that are pure energy and other rayman abilities affects ghost and nightmares from Rayman 2 (and there are also ghosts in rayman 3 but the tornado would just one hit kill then)

The elemental entities I remember the bosses of rayman 2 but don´t quote me on that because I only like 1 and 3

Ok? Resisting 1 thing, doesn't mean you resist another. That is LITERALLY not how this wiki works, He gets absolutely nothing beyond size manip doesn't work that well on him. This doesn't help against any of Wooper's moves, or most Pokemon moves for that, this would help him if he somehow had Minimize reflected back at him or something, about it.

You're basically arguing the lad would be immune to something like Purple Haze or that Warhammer disease dude too. It's not the same, not because they can affect the same things, but because the abilities are literally not the same.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Ok? Resisting 1 thing, doesn't mean you resist another. That is LITERALLY not how this wiki works

Rayman can´t do anything to Knaarens as their power are that their barriers appart of being strong, has power null

Said barriers has 2 weaknesses, you want me to proof that said barrier can resist literally every single hax of the wiki? No, is your job to proof that the barrier won´t protect the user to other haxes, I literally have never seeing "that is literally not how this wiki works" with how you acts with power null

The power null already showed that it can null anything Rayman has and that is only weak to electricity and that can be absorbed, now you says that "it won´t protect from poison because I say so" sorry but no

He gets absolutely nothing beyond size manip doesn't work that well on him

"doesn´t work that well on him" It does not work at all

Voting Reflux FRA

 

[Chariot190]

Rayman can´t do anything to Knaarens as their power are that their barriers appart of being strong, has power null

Don't hit the barrier, it ain't hard, it's a one-way shield.

Said barriers has 2 weaknesses, you want me to proof that said barrier can resist literally every single hax of the wiki?

Yeah? It resists what it's shown to resist? That's how EVERY profile works.

No, is your job to proof that the barrier won´t protect the user to other haxes, I literally have never seeing "that is literally not how this wiki works" with how you acts with power null

Ignoring the fact the power null is legitimately fake and is just "wow they aren't affected by these things" and then extrapolated to be something it isn't, that isn't going to help against a move that spawns atop him bypassing the forcefield completely.

The power null already showed that it can null anything Rayman has and that is only weak to electricity and that can be absorbed, now you says that "it won´t protect from poison because I say so" sorry but no

The fact it can even powernull something as mundane as electricity is telling. Do they actually say anywhere that's what it's doing, actively power-nulling abilities?
Ignoring that, why would a forcefield negate poison when he's already poisoned? Toxic bypasses it completely, most of Wooper's moves do.

All the forcefield is, is a basic flat shield that faces the foe, any notable AOE attack, an attack that can hit multiple directions at once, attacks that are visual contact based, or attacks that just spawn atop the foe magically, aren't going to care. The forcefield can stop moves like tackle and poison jab, but that's a small fraction of Wooper's kit.

 

[Chariot190]

"doesn´t work that well on him" It does not work at all

No immunity is an actual immunity, here's someone out there on the wiki with like 90D size manip or something.

 

[CrackerVolley]

I should probably mention that Wooper's recover is probably mid-low in terms of potency (going off of the other profiles for Pkmn with recover), although it seems that I never specified that when I made the sub-profile since I took most of the terminology from the Kantonian variant's ability list.

 

[Chariot190]

you made the profile?
Tbh I'm under the impression Recover is High-Low, though I'm probably thinking of some non-game shit

 

[CrackerVolley]

I made Paldean Wooper's profile because Pokemon CRTs is being held up by this continuity split nonsense and I got tired of waiting for SV profiles to be made.

 

[Chariot190]

I'm making a Slither Wing profile
nothing else tho, rest sus

 

[CrackerVolley]

bump