Low 7-B Tournament - Reflux (Rayman) vs Paldean Wooper (Pokémon)

[Arnoldstone18]

Following

 

[Spinoirr]

What are the arguments for and against Wooper

 

[Chariot190]

What are the arguments for and against Wooper

Arguments for

• I said them (Correct)

Arguments against

• I did not say them (Incorrect)

 

[Mr. Bambu]

So, just so I understand clearly, the current major argument in favor of Wooper is that he will essentially toxic his enemy to death, given that said poison would ostensibly work here in spite of how its visually portrayed in some media?

On the flip side, Reflux ought to be able to expel parts of his body that are poisoned and seems to have a slight AP advantage due to fire stuff being neutral, and will generally just resort to outright attacks. The videos above don't imply any crazy skill feats, so I'm assuming/hoping that this isn't a major part of the argument.

Generally speaking, based on its moves, I don't know how likely it is that Wooper will just instantly go for Reflux with toxic- given an AP advantage (even an only slight one) and forcefields that serve as deterrent against most attacks Wooper has, I'm leaning more in favor of Reflux atm. Toxic is surely not an instant win and I think it will give Reflux enough time to eke out a win.

 

[Chariot190]

the current major argument in favor of Wooper is that he will essentially toxic his enemy to death, given that said poison would ostensibly work here in spite of how its visually portrayed in some media?

Not even remotely, that's just one of several options it has. Between AOE (sludge wave and equake most notably, omnidirectional), stat buffing, debuffing, healing (Recover heals it by half is HP), sleep and more.
Poison is just what's likely to be used first and foremost based on Clod's only real character statement saying it uses its (poison) spikes a lot imo.

Your last statement doesn't make any sense.

On the flip side, Reflux ought to be able to expel parts of his body that are poisoned

Doing so ultimately weakens it, and causes its inevitable defeat if it's forced to do that to much, or he has to ultimately re-absorb them back so it doesn't actually change anything.

and seems to have a slight AP advantage due to fire stuff being neutral, and will generally just resort to outright attacks. The videos above don't imply any crazy skill feats, so I'm assuming/hoping that this isn't a major part of the argument.

It's true that it holds an initial advantage, but Wooper eclipses it in AOE/Range, and has the tools to give itself a net swing advantage of nearly 6x through moves like Amnesia, or Tail Whip. Of course, it leading with those is unlikely, but Wooper should by all accounts use them eventually, especially if half of the time it can't actually use its main offensive and status attacks due to a forcefield, basically forcing it to use them due to a lack of other options. And as mentioned, it can heal itself via Recover so it can last awhile and prolong the fight should it drag on to that point.

Generally speaking, based on its moves, I don't know how likely it is that Wooper will just instantly go for Reflux with toxic- given an AP advantage (even an only slight one)

It's a poison type, naturally learns toxic, even if toxic isn't an option, almost every offense move it has can poison. The AP advantage as outlined above isn't a notable advantage, it can be healed off and even negated and flipped around with the right tools.

and forcefields that serve as deterrent against most attacks Wooper has, I'm leaning more in favor of Reflux atm. Toxic is surely not an instant win and I think it will give Reflux enough time to eke out a win.

Correct, but in order for it to attack 99% of the time, it has to lower the forefield down, meaning to do anything it also has to leave itself vulnerable, and when it's turtling, that just gives Wooper time to make use of support moves. Toxic is actually very nasty, the poison gets worse and worse over time to where eventually, even at maximum health, it will instantly drain a Pokemon of its whole HP bar (It doubles every turn, becoming an instant KO within 8 turns/attacks, so not very long at all).

Though you did mention skill, Wooper (for what it's worth) should be more skilled, as a Pokemon they're hardwired for combat and basically live for it, and are pretty decent at adapting in battle, and checking what wild woopers use in combat, they come with, tail whip (lowers def), mud shot (lowers speed), yawn (puts foes to sleep) and toxic spikes (toxic statues if touched) as a few notable options as well.

 

[Armorchompy]

Wooper definitely goes for poison, just being a poison type kinda means half its moves do that and in particular its pokedex stuff hints at it

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Your last statement doesn't make any sense.

What of my statement could you not comprehend?

Doing so ultimately weakens it, and causes its inevitable defeat if it's forced to do that to much, or he has to ultimately re-absorb them back so it doesn't actually change anything.

I mean like... yes, but its better than being toxic'd to death, unless the mechanics of toxic have significantly changed since I played Pokemon (very likely, given I haven't touched anything aside from Pixelmon since Coliseum).

It's true that it holds an initial advantage, but Wooper eclipses it in AOE/Range, and has the tools to give itself a net swing advantage of nearly 6x through moves like Amnesia, or Tail Whip. Of course, it leading with those is unlikely, but Wooper should by all accounts use them eventually, especially if half of the time it can't actually use its main offensive and status attacks due to a forcefield, basically forcing it to use them due to a lack of other options. And as mentioned, it can heal itself via Recover so it can last awhile and prolong the fight should it drag on to that point.

To an extent though Wooper's advantages are nulled, due to the whole forcefield/dislodge bits of itself that are poisoned, thing. I'm not saying they aren't notable, but I think they are less notable than you present them.

It's a poison type, naturally learns toxic, even if toxic isn't an option, almost every offense move it has can poison. The AP advantage as outlined above isn't a notable advantage, it can be healed off and even negated and flipped around with the right tools.

At this rate one gets the impression that you're assuming Wooper uses several "moves" in the time it takes Reflux to act once. Both parties seem to act with approximately the same speed. The AP advantage and the ability to weather physical attacks is notable.

Correct, but in order for it to attack 99% of the time, it has to lower the forefield down, meaning to do anything it also has to leave itself vulnerable, and when it's turtling, that just gives Wooper time to make use of support moves. Toxic is actually very nasty, the poison gets worse and worse over time to where eventually, even at maximum health, it will instantly drain a Pokemon of its whole HP bar (It doubles every turn, becoming an instant KO within 8 turns/attacks, so not very long at all).

Though you did mention skill, Wooper (for what it's worth) should be more skilled, as a Pokemon they're hardwired for combat and basically live for it, and are pretty decent at adapting in battle, and checking what wild woopers use in combat, they come with, tail whip (lowers def), mud shot (lowers speed), yawn (puts foes to sleep) and toxic spikes (toxic statues if touched) as a few notable options as well.

I took the forcefield-needing-to-be-lowered thing into account, it was mentioned in the thread. It is still a considerable boon, one that Wooper has no actual response to from what I can see (aside from Toxic ostensibly bypassing).

I don't find the "all pokemon are actually turbo skilled because they were bred for combat" to be a particularly compelling argument.

Wooper has some answers, but not tons. I still lean in favor of Reflux atm.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Tomorrow I will try to answer but for now:

, or he has to ultimately re-absorb them back

If he eject the toxic hoodloms, they will die before coming to the body, by toxic or Wooper aoe

Correct, but in order for it to attack 99% of the time, it has to lower the forefield down

When he is attacking he is speedblitzing as his attack speed is MFTL+, he then Usually get´s exhausted and that could be a moment to attack, but Wooper has to chain his attacks as one strike normally makes him activate the barrier

Also, his reactive evolution make him adapt to flying as he was using telekinesis to do so and in minutes, he then growed wings, if is activates by changes to suit the enviroment, is possible that if he survives the toxic or normal poison, the next time his body could adapt to that, also the fact that Reflux has more LS to grab Wooper in his gigant form and that is an instant game over if not factoring poison touch (which activates with permanent grabs?)

Finally, this goes for the rayman supporters: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/André_(Rayman)

Does Andre counts as supporting Reflux? After Reflux death, Andre appears of his body, as the mere survivor of the multiple hoodlums/black lums of his body

Might as well point out this boss fight too

I would not count this Reflux for the normal one, extremely different and he was created by Andre spirit using Globox body

 

[Chariot190]

What of my statement could you not comprehend?

Talking about other media, we use the games exclusively now thank god tbh, the compositing was kinda sus

I mean like... yes, but its better than being toxic'd to death, unless the mechanics of toxic have significantly changed since I played Pokemon (very likely, given I haven't touched anything aside from Pixelmon since Coliseum).

And then Wooper does it again. This isn't a feasible counter, it merely prolongs the inevitable while crippling itself.
From the profile itself
"(Can eject Hoodlums out of his body, though this happens when he's in a vulnerable state and the Hoodlums need to return to his body to reenergize him)".

He can't "just" eject them and be fine, doing so may as well leave him open to get washed by toxic waves on repeat, or he brings them back and is still poisoned and gets KO'd within a few "turns".

To an extent though Wooper's advantages are nulled, due to the whole forcefield/dislodge bits of itself that are poisoned, thing. I'm not saying they aren't notable, but I think they are less notable than you present them.

How do you walk away from a 6x net gain, sleep manip, multi-km AOE, range, and its own healing as not that notable

The forcefield is a double-edged sword, it lowers it to attack making itself vulnerable though that's only in phase 1 (In Phase 2 it's worse), and dislodging poisoned hoodlums cripples it or he has to re-absorb them, which ultimately doesn't help it because he'd have just absorbed the poison back in again (I legit don't even think it'd work like that to begin with ngl, if he's poisoned, why would ejecting hoodlums change that? It isn't like Wooper is targeting them).

It isn't even a full-body forcefield assuming we're using his final form, it only protects the scepter (a point, if struck, causes him tremendous pain), which thinking about it, why does the forcefield even matter, it won't actually stop Wooper from attacking the rest of it, nor does it stop him spamming poison again and again without issue (The forcefield is only 1 way too, it wouldn't help against moves like Sludge Wave that would swamp the area).
And the forcefield itself can even be broken down within a few seconds of damage or a few hits. A few buffs and Wooper should by all accounts smash through it every attack.

At this rate one gets the impression that you're assuming Wooper uses several "moves" in the time it takes Reflux to act once. Both parties seem to act with approximately the same speed. The AP advantage and the ability to weather physical attacks is notable.

I didn't say that, don't strawman me.

But now that you mention it, good point, Wooper has moves that lower a foe's speed like Mud Shot (A move even the weakest wild Wooper know), which would let it get more moves in within the same timeframe. Atop that, due to having Recover, it very well can set up without much worry, like what's stopping it from just buffing its Sp.Def? Then healing off any damage it might've taken while doing so? I did mention a nearly 6x net-gain for AP, but the same applies to its defenses as well, it can buff its dura so it's nearly 3x Reflux's AP (Abou 2.7/8x)., and then just heal off the damage it endured while buffing. And this then snowballs as due to have more def, it can take more attacks while doing other things (Notwithstanding it can dodge and then attack or use a move, Pokemon do tend to be good at dodging).

And Wooper as mentioned has a far larger range and AOE (Several may as well ignore the forcefield due to this), of course, it's going to get a few more moves in within the same time, some of its moves even spawn atop the foe like the aforementioned Toxic.

I took the forcefield-needing-to-be-lowered thing into account, it was mentioned in the thread. It is still a considerable boon, one that Wooper has no actual response to from what I can see (aside from Toxic ostensibly bypassing).

Ironic as it might be, I think you're exaggerating that very same forcefield, it only covers the scepter in the final phase, and before that, it only protected in front of him.
And he has several, such as various status moves, the fact it only covers the scepter, the fact the forcefield can be chipped down, toxic too.

I don't find the "all pokemon are actually turbo skilled because they were bred for combat" to be a particularly compelling argument.

Second strawman within one post.
I said it was more skilled, I didn't say it was some skill god. Simply having basic combat skills and being able to adapt in battle is being turbo skilled?

 

[Chariot190]

If he eject the toxic hoodloms, they will die before coming to the body, by toxic or Wooper aoe

Profile explicitly mentions he needs to re-absorb them. Sludge Wave and Toxic cover quite a bit of area too, it's not a one-and-done type thing.

When he is attacking he is speedblitzing as his attack speed is MFTL+, he then Usually get´s exhausted and that could be a moment to attack, but Wooper has to chain his attacks as one strike normally makes him activate the barrier

That's tremendously easy to get around, aim-dodging (something most Pokemon can do, Wooper included in recent games with enough friendship), but Wooper can lower Reflux's base speed, basically giving Reflux the same issue. If Wooper buffs tho, he wouldn't need to combo or use a continuous move.

Also, his reactive evolution make him adapt to flying as he was using telekinesis to do so and in minutes, he then growed wings, if is activates by changes to suit the enviroment, is possible that if he survives the toxic or normal poison,

Yeah nah, growing wings is not the same as adapting to whatever crack pokemon poison is on, especially because bro didn't even adapt to the TK, he just grew wings to circumvent it but it isn't like he became immune to TK.

the next time his body could adapt to that, also the fact that Reflux has more LS to grab Wooper in his gigant form and that is an instant game over if not factoring poison touch (which activates with permanent grabs?)

Wooper in lore has a poison film on its body, paldean Wooper has that too but presumably worse (dex enry stuff), poison point has a chance to proc every time contact is made, sustained gripping of it, well needless to say I don't think that's a good idea
also wooper could just use one of his many moves like sludge wave to attack even while being gripped, it isn't like wooper needs to throw hands. Think of it as if you restrained Goku, and bro just fired some ki off anyway.
Also he could just dodge, a giant trying to grab you is a pretty obvious tell, doubly so if they're fighting wth a bit of range between them.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Talking about other media, we use the games exclusively now thank god tbh, the compositing was kinda sus

Okay, what specifically about it did you not understand though? I'm confused.

And then Wooper does it again. This isn't a feasible counter, it merely prolongs the inevitable while crippling itself.
From the profile itself
"(Can eject Hoodlums out of his body, though this happens when he's in a vulnerable state and the Hoodlums need to return to his body to reenergize him)".

He can't "just" eject them and be fine, doing so may as well leave him open to get washed by toxic waves on repeat, or he brings them back and is still poisoned and gets KO'd within a few "turns".

Okay, so he won't be reenergized? I don't really understand why you're making a big point of that. Yeah, it harms him, but given that Wooper is specifically kinda stupid, I think "delaying the inevitable" actually makes it much less inevitable. Countering the one specific strat that seems most likely to net a win is very big point.

How do you walk away from a 6x net gain, sleep manip, multi-km AOE, range, and its own healing as not that notable

The forcefield is a double-edged sword, it lowers it to attack making itself vulnerable though that's only in phase 1 (In Phase 2 it's worse), and dislodging poisoned hoodlums cripples it or he has to re-absorb them, which ultimately doesn't help it because he'd have just absorbed the poison back in again (I legit don't even think it'd work like that to begin with ngl, if he's poisoned, why would ejecting hoodlums change that? It isn't like Wooper is targeting them).

It isn't even a full-body forcefield assuming we're using his final form, it only protects the scepter (a point, if struck, causes him tremendous pain), which thinking about it, why does the forcefield even matter, it won't actually stop Wooper from attacking the rest of it, nor does it stop him spamming poison again and again without issue (The forcefield is only 1 way too, it wouldn't help against moves like Sludge Wave that would swamp the area).
And the forcefield itself can even be broken down within a few seconds of damage or a few hits. A few buffs and Wooper should by all accounts smash through it every attack.

You know for sure that the argument is top-shelf material when they have to add in the emotes to send it home, truly, I kneel, I kneel

AOE doesn't matter much if Wooper can't bypass shields (you've given no indication he can, aside from Toxic, which isn't what you're arguing here), and I'm not actually really sure what you're trying to get at with "6x net gain" here. Sleep manip is fair but doesn't actually solve the battle in of itself because of how short-lived it is.

We've already been over the weakness of the forcefield, I am aware of it when voting lol. I am in fact aware of all of the things already posted to this thread, I read it all.

As for the point of it only covering the scepter, the profile seems to fly in the face of this notion, specifically stating he can cover himself with said forcefield. I think you're referencing behavior of one particular key, when that doesn't seem to actually be the only application.

Second strawman within one post.
I said it was more skilled, I didn't say it was some skill god. Simply having basic combat skills and being able to adapt in battle is being turbo skilled?

You provided a point about Wooper being more skilled, I said I don't find that compelling lol? Are you really one to eat up hyperbole like that?

Either way I think the arguments for Wooper expect too much of the guy, whereas Reflux is extremely straightforward- his strategy of just outright attacking has no actual counters outside of Wooper winning first, which I find unlikely due to most of his arsenal being mitigated or outright ineffective.

My vote for Reflux.

 

[Imaginym]

Forgive me if these are bad questions, but as I understand it:

Reflux's strategy is to attack, & he is invulnerable via a forcefield when not attacking, right?

What makes dodging these attacks impractical? Or attacking the attacks? Ex: Using Mud Shot on an incoming attack?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Forgive me if these are bad questions, but as I understand it:

Reflux's strategy is to attack, & he is invulnerable via a forcefield when not attacking, right?

What makes dodging these attacks impractical? Or attacking the attacks? Ex: Using Mud Shot on an incoming attack?

For at least some of them he has Homing Attack. Otherwise, both parties can dodge as normal, it seems, yes.

 

[Chariot190]

Okay, so he won't be reenergized? I don't really understand why you're making a big point of that. Yeah, it harms him, but given that Wooper is specifically kinda stupid, I think "delaying the inevitable" actually makes it much less inevitable. Countering the one specific strat that seems most likely to net a win is very big point.

Yeah, it harms him, so why are you acting as if that's a good thing, he can't spam it, he can't abuse it, and it leaves him vulnerable, unless he brings them back, in which case, he's still poisoned, do you not see the issue with your argument? You're basically saying to avoid poison, he cripples himself, leaving himself open to just get poisoned again, except worse because he'd need to call them back again or perm wound himself

Also Wooper is stupid? Newsflash brother, but Reflux ain't exactly the sharpest tool in the shed
Fortunately, in the only thing that matters here, combat, Wooper isn't exactly dumb so nice try.

You know for sure that the argument is top-shelf material when they have to add in the emotes to send it home, truly, I kneel, I kneel

You're on a forum arguing a pokemon vs a classic video game boss lmao

and I'm not actually really sure what you're trying to get at with "6x net gain" here. Sleep manip is fair but doesn't actually solve the battle in of itself because of how short-lived it is.

That Wooper through the use of stat buffs and debuffs (one of which it learns at birth mind you and is used by early-game wooper commonly), can give itself a 6x AP advantage over Reflux's durability? Nearly a one-shot with every attack? Not even counting he STAB bonus on some moves? And through def buffs, can give itself 3x as much durability over Reflux's AP? I elaborated on both above, and before you say "well Wooper gets hurt trying to do that", sure, but the more it buffs, the less it takes, it's a snowball effect, plus Recover so

AOE doesn't matter much if Wooper can't bypass shields (you've given no indication he can, aside from Toxic, which isn't what you're arguing here),

Oh god, you're joking right? The shield only covers in front of him, it's basically just a small wall that faces in front of him, if Wooper uses a sludge wave and swamps the whole arena in poison sludge, you realize that the shield isn't going to do shit right? Or Equake, or any of the large-scale moves it has?

We've already been over the weakness of the forcefield, I am aware of it when voting lol. I am in fact aware of all of the things already posted to this thread, I read it all.

Did you though? Then why act like the forcefield that doesn't even protect its main body, and only does so one-way in phase 1, stops any of Woper's attacks? They wouldn't except for things like tackle or what not.

As for the point of it only covering the scepter, the profile seems to fly in the face of this notion, specifically stating he can cover himself with said forcefield. I think you're referencing behavior of one particular key, when that doesn't seem to actually be the only application.

I am referring to the key hoodlum shit brother, because that's the crux of your argument? In the previous phase, well, the forcefield only covers in front of him, so see above?

"an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument."

You proceeding to argue a belief I never stated up to that point to dismiss my claims n case 1, and then twisting what I said into a hyperbolic statement in case 2, well yes Bambu, strawman, you're staff, you know better.

You provided a point about Wooper being more skilled, I said I don't find that compelling lol? Are you really one to eat up hyperbole like that?

Correct, using hyperbole to undermine my point is extremely unwarranted. Don't.

Either way I think the arguments for Wooper expect too much of the guy, whereas Reflux is extremely straightforward- his strategy of just outright attacking has no actual counters outside of Wooper winning first, which I find unlikely due to most of his arsenal being mitigated or outright ineffective.

Recover basically negs this as a whole, Wooper can basically do anything as long as he isn't two shot, which given they're initially about equal, he'd get the chance to. Meanwhile Reflux in order to stop himself from just dying within like 8 "turns", has to proceed to cripple himself again and again.

Edit: Btw the hoodlum eject is only a thing in the final form, prior form just gets toxic and dies within a few attack's worth of time unless he transforms immediately after.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Yeah, it harms him, so why are you acting as if that's a good thing

Yeah I also have no idea why no longer being poisoned is a good thing, good point.

he can't spam it, he can't abuse it, and it leaves him vulnerable

More or less vulnerable, in your esteemed opinion, than being toxic'd to death?

do you not see the issue with your argument?

Do you not see the issue with yours?

You're basically saying to avoid poison, he cripples himself, leaving himself open to just get poisoned again, except worse because he'd need to call them back again or perm wound himself

Yes. I'm glad you're up to snuff and understanding this portion, at least.

Also Wooper is stupid? Newsflash brother, but Reflux ain't exactly the sharpest tool in the shed
Fortunately, in the only thing that matters here, combat, Wooper isn't exactly dumb so nice try.

Wooper is stupid though? It's on his profile my man.

Also, ahem

STRAWMAN! STRAWMAN! I NEVER ARGUED REFLUX WAS SMART I JUST ARGUED WOOPER WAS STUPID, WHICH HE IS! YOU CAN'T DO THIS, BE BETTER!

(silliness aside, it genuinely is irrelevant for Reflux how smart he is because his strategy is extremely straightforward, and one he has shown to actually do- you're the one presuming Wooper is going to string together the perfect combo of moves to not only survive but also perfectly counter everything, despite evidence to the contrary).

You're on a forum arguing a pokemon vs a classic video game boss lmao

I dunno if I can call this an "argument" but sure, yes.

That Wooper through the use of stat buffs and debuffs (one of which it learns at birth mind you and is used by early-game wooper commonly), can give itself a 6x AP advantage over Reflux's durability? Nearly a one-shot with every attack? Not even counting he STAB bonus on some moves? And through def buffs, can give itself 3x as much durability over Reflux's AP? I elaborated on both above, and before you say "well Wooper gets hurt trying to do that", sure, but the more it buffs, the less it takes, it's a snowball effect, plus Recover so

So your argument is that Wooper is going to buff itself and debuff the enemy during this fight while casting toxic and mud shot to deflect attacks and all of that is occurring while Reflux is sitting there contemplating life lol? Your argument already hinged on Wooper acting significantly more than Reflux, and now you're throwing all of this into the mix? Do you have an exact figure that shows a 6x AP buff? Nevermind that judging by the OP, Wooper downscales from this AP and Reflux upscales considerably. Forgive me for not considering this the damning argument you seem to think it is.

Oh god, you're joking right? The shield only covers in front of him, it's basically just a small wall that faces in front of him, if Wooper uses a sludge wave and swamps the whole arena in poison sludge, you realize that the shield isn't going to do shit right? Or Equake, or any of the large-scale moves it has?

Ah, right, I forgot the standard tactic in combat is to look away from your enemy, since if you can't see them, they can't see you. And, of course, the return of Wooper's Infinite Moves Per Turn, very fun.

I am referring to the key hoodlum shit brother, because that's the crux of your argument? In the previous phase, well, the forcefield only covers in front of him, so see above?

brother, it's not my argument, I'm just a voter. I didn't contribute either guy to this. I think your arguments are weaker than Reflux's. Debates are meant to convince folk, I am not convinced, and so I vote the other way.

You proceeding to argue a belief I never stated up to that point to dismiss my claims n case 1, and then twisting what I said into a hyperbolic statement in case 2, well yes Bambu, strawman, you're staff, you know better.

"Bambu you're staff so stop saying things I don't like!"

Dude, I don't know how to tell you this, I encourage you to just learn what the word means before abusing it as such. I'm going to engage in hyperbole. The beauty of language is open to you if you stop being silly. I never argued you were making a point you were not making, ***** sake man.

Correct, using hyperbole to undermine my point is extremely unwarranted. Don't.

Recover basically negs this as a whole, Wooper can basically do anything as long as he isn't two shot, which given they're initially about equal, he'd get the chance to. Meanwhile Reflux in order o stop himself from just dying within like 8 "turns", has to proceed to cripple himself again and again.

Can you show like, any instance where Wooper is just spamming Recover every other move specifically like this?

All of this is becoming a headache and a half when it doesn't need to be, screaming logical fallacies where none actually are, I ain't particularly interested in entertaining the debate anymore since neither of these guys are mine. I vote Reflux, my vote is evidently informed. Good luck thread.

 

[Imaginym]

Yeah, while I can see Wooper recovering if damaged, it finding the opportunity to do 6 Tail Whips seems... unlikely.
Not to mention, an opponent at -6 DEF is 4x weaker to physical attacks than normal, not 6x. (Although, it's dubious if non Pokemon have stat stage change limits like Pokemon do.)
Also, Tail Whip requires Reflux perceiving it, presuming he doesn't resist Empathic Manipulation:
"The user wags its tail cutely, making opposing Pokémon less wary and lowering their Defense stat."

& while Wooper do use it in the wild in the games, those wild Wooper tend to do so because their AI is Random, & they only have like, 1 or a few other moves.
A hostile, experienced, in-character Wooper probably isn't going to bother shaking its booty cutely at its opponent six times. Once might be plausible, more than that is unlikely when the opponent is trying to attack it.

Also, a solo Paldean Wooper (Or other kind of Wooper.) may not be at peak rationality in these circumstances, given this Pokedex entry:

Violet	It's dangerous for Wooper to travel alone. They line up in groups of three or four and help each other as they walk around the wetlands.

Given it canonically uses the "buddy system" (or close to it.), & this is a Wooper that's alone in a mutal hostile situation in unfamiliar territory, it's probably on edge, I'd imagine, & not exactly in the mood to be Reflux's "precious Woopy boi" (Ugh. It disgusts me to even type that.) any time soon.

If we're to extrapolate on Wooper's behaviour based on Clodsire's....

Scarlet	When attacked, this Pokémon will retaliate by sticking thick spines out from its body. It’s a risky move that puts everything on the line.

There's that about Clodsire.

Considering Wooper has a poisonous, sticky film on its body (But which also serves to keep it from dehydrating.), it might try to retaliate by going in physically, assuming it's not avoidant of attacks to preserve its hydration-preserving film.
For what its worth, Quagsire are known to not move very much, but that's Johtonian Wooper's evolved form, not Paldean Wooper's.


Anyway, apologies for asking, but how does Reflux's robot or suit or mech or such work? Can it be poisoned? Is it like armor? Does he pilot it? How? What about the mooks?

 

[Mantidil]

Finally, this goes for the rayman supporters: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/André_(Rayman)

Does Andre counts as supporting Reflux? After Reflux death, Andre appears of his body, as the mere survivor of the multiple hoodlums/black lums of his body

Technically yes. André is arguably how Reflux was able to produce the Black Lums/Hoodlums, using the energy received from the Leptys to create them.

 

[Mantidil]

Anyway, apologies for asking, but how does Reflux's robot or suit or mech or such work? Can it be poisoned? Is it like armor? Does he pilot it? How? What about the mooks?

Reflux doesn’t have a mech, he is just empowered by the Leptys using a special Sceptre.

 

[Imaginym]

Reflux doesn’t have a mech, he is just empowered by the Lepty using a special Sceptre.

What are Leptys?
Also, what form of Reflux?

 

[Mantidil]

What are Leptys?
Also, what form of Reflux?

Leptys is a god who empowers Reflux, and I assume we are using Reflux’s final form

 

[Chariot190]

Yeah I also have no idea why no longer being poisoned is a good thing, good point.

The fact he becomes motionless unable to move? The fact it's a limited option and can't be done indefinitely or unlimitedly? The fact I don't even know why this would work? Except actually? Why would ejecting hoodlums cure it of ITS poison? Wooper ain't poisoning the hoodlums

More or less vulnerable, in your esteemed opinion, than being toxic'd to death?

Yes actually, he'd be even more vulnerable. He's effectively frozen when that happens.

Yes. I'm glad you're up to snuff and understanding this portion, at least.

Ok then you agree you with me, cool.

Wooper is stupid though? It's on his profile my man.

You know what else is?
"Gifted in battle (Should be superior to 1st Stage Pokémon and are able to consistently fight the likes of Machamp which have mastered all martial arts, as well as Alakazam)".
Wooper isn't that smart out of battle, but in battle, aka what's happening here, he's gifted. Aka, this point is a literal nonfactor, not sure why you even brought it up.

Also, ahem

STRAWMAN! STRAWMAN! I NEVER ARGUED REFLUX WAS SMART I JUST ARGUED WOOPER WAS STUPID, WHICH HE IS! YOU CAN'T DO THIS, BE BETTER!

My bad then.

(silliness aside, it genuinely is irrelevant for Reflux how smart he is because his strategy is extremely straightforward, and one he has shown to actually do- you're the one presuming Wooper is going to string together the perfect combo of moves to not only survive but also perfectly counter everything, despite evidence to the contrary).

Uh, what? Toxic and poison is in character, it learns and uses both yawn and moves like tail whip in wild encounters against the player.
And well Recover, do I need to explain why healing when it gets hurt a lot is obvious?

And assuming you simply missed what I said before and aren't just ignoring it on purpose, he doesn't need to string these together in some perfect combo, it can heal, and it's going to have the chance to do whatever it wants, it's only a matter of time and Reflux isn't killing it before that, they're almost equal to start with. Wooper can adapt in battle, it can heal itself meaning if Option 1 doesn't work, it heals and tries something else.

Pretending it's some hypercomplex combo to discredit it ain't it chief. None of them even have to be done in order.
Tail Whip? Permanent debuff, doesn't need contact with him to work.
Amnesia? Permanent buffs, enhances special attack and special defense quite a bit.
Mud Shot? Permanent speed debuff, ranged attack.
Toxic or the ten fucktillion poison moves it has? Well poison doesn't just vanish.

The ONLY move it has where doing it in order would matter would be yawn, but that still leaves Reflux open for a good number of attacks, and that's assuming he wakes back up.

Moves like Sludgewave and Equake simply don't give a shit and will attack behind the forcefield if phase 1, or attack him from an incredible distance in phase 2.

So Bambu, what are you on about? You're acting as if this fight is going to be quick, it won't be. Unless he starts in phase 1 in which he gets toxic'd and just dies like 20 seconds later. Or if in the final, it'll be a match that drags on due to both their longevity and means to heal.

Either way, discrediting 90% of his tool kit based on a "he cant because he'd need infinite turns lol" strawman ain't it.

I dunno if I can call this an "argument" but sure, yes.

I'm saying it's humourous, why does everything have to be an argument?

So your argument is that

Strawman 3 thanks.

Wooper is going to buff itself and debuff the enemy during this fight while casting toxic and mud shot to deflect attacks

I'm saying that's an option, one it can do, because ya know, recover? It doesn't need to attack constantly, it can use status moves, and then just heal off any damage it might have taken.
I never said anything about reflecting attacks? Don't strawman.

and all of that is occurring while Reflux is sitting there contemplating life lol?

Oh no, he'd be attacking too of course, but as elaborated above, Pokemon excel in dodging, the issue here is that Toxic spawns on him, sludge wave and Equake straight up don't give a **** and are AOE and affect everything and aren't feasible to dodge, moves like tail whip can't be dodged given that's more a visual thing, there's trap moves like Toxic Spikes so moving around would jus poison himself again, etc.

Your argument already hinged on Wooper acting significantly more than Reflux

Why lie like that? I made my point, elaborated on why I think it's feasible, gave reasons why tha wouldn't matter, and never once said Reflux can' do anything, I even said they'd be acting at the same time. The issue here is that 90% of Wooper's moves create a snowball effect, they buff itself, debuff the foe, don't actually care about the forcefield and can't be dodged, while all of Reflux's attacks can just be healed off? I detailed this above.

and now you're throwing all of this into the mix?

Wow, imagine having multiple abilities that can be reasonably gotten off being a bad thing.

Do you have an exact figure that shows a 6x AP buff?

Not on me, that's how we've been treating the stat moves for years, each stage raised/lowered is 50%. Take it up with the Pokemon nerds if you have issue with that
Otherwise just treat it like "boost big enough to oneshot/nosell things that would have one shot/done little damage", which imo would be even worse.

Nevermind that judging by the OP, Wooper downscales from this AP and Reflux upscales considerably.

Innately sure, a Wooper's tackle is gonna be weaker than a Rhyhorn's tackle.
But it isn't like Wooper's ground and poison moves don't get a damage boost, Wooper can stat buff and debuff, regen, and has moves that don't care about durability. A Wooper can, after all, beat a Rhyhorn just fine if it uses more powerful attacks or makes use of type bonuses, it's a negligible downscale is what I'm getting at.

Plus, Wooper also gets Counter, having a stat advantage can be turned against the foe, assuming Wooper doesn't get one shot.

Forgive me for not considering this the damning argument you seem to think it is.

I'm sure if you simplify it and twist my argument you would think that.

Ah, right, I forgot the standard tactic in combat is to look away from your enemy, since if you can't see them, they can't see you.

What part of huge AOE, spawn and even visual contact moves wasn't conveyed? The forcefield would stop tackle or poison jab (except in the key with the hoodlum stuff, aka the key that makes this a match where he doesn't die from toxic five seconds in), but that's only a small part of its movepool.

And, of course, the return of Wooper's Infinite Moves Per Turn, very fun.

Strawman.

brother, it's not my argument, I'm just a voter. I didn't contribute either guy to this. I think your arguments are weaker than Reflux's. Debates are meant to convince folk, I am not convinced, and so I vote the other way.

He says while arguing with me.
And so? The hoodlum stuff is explicitly only in the Final key, you can check the profile, if your crux is that, then by that very logic the forcefield argument is moot. But if he has the frontal forcefield, he just gets poisoned and dies because no hoodlum spawns. You can't have both.

You obviously acknowledge this but are voting based on that anyway. Kinda sus ngl.

"Bambu you're staff so stop saying things I don't like!"

It was more Bambu stop doing the thing people tell you not to do all the time and actually partake in a civil debate without coming off as, well, you.

Dude, I don't know how to tell you this, I encourage you to just learn what the word means before abusing it as such. I'm going to engage in hyperbole. The beauty of language is open to you if you stop being silly. I never argued you were making a point you were not making, ***** sake man.

Ironic isn't it? Almost every reply is you twisting what I actually said, saying things I didn't say, misinterpreting my argument (how many times have you pulled the "lol infinite attack" retort? Even after elaborating?), and you're saying I don't know what it means? Just because you say it isn't, doesn't magically make it not one.

Can you show like, any instance where Wooper is just spamming Recover every other move specifically like this?

No? It's an Egg Move?
Though, wild pokemon are programmed to use moves like that if they dip. The AI is situational, but thankfully, all Pokemon follow it
also no way you're arguing it won't heal itself if it's going to die, that's beyond grasping. By that same logic, why are we arguing Reflux would heal itself of toxic? It doesn't even eject hoodlums for that reason, nor at all till phase 3.

All of this is becoming a headache and a half when it doesn't need to be, screaming logical fallacies where none actually are, I ain't particularly interested in entertaining the debate anymore since neither of these guys are mine. I vote Reflux, my vote is evidently informed. Good luck thread.

Calling out you misinterpreting or twisting what I said isn't screaming logical fallacy, it's me saying knock it off, I could go back and actually do so if it'd appease you though.

And well, you do you, hope you have a goodnight.

 

[Chariot190]

Leptys is a god who empowers Reflux, and I assume we are using Reflux’s final form

Same, given it's the form with the hoodlum eject.

Not to mention, an opponent at -6 DEF is 4x weaker to physical attacks than normal, not 6x. (Although, it's dubious if non Pokemon have stat stage change limits like Pokemon do.)

Nah that's why I said netgain, I was taking into account possible buffs like Amnesia but i was also taking into account it was only a 3x difference, not 4x, in which case it'd be nearly an 8x netgain.

Also, Tail Whip requires Reflux perceiving it, presuming he doesn't resist Empathic Manipulation:
"The user wags its tail cutely, making opposing Pokémon less wary and lowering their Defense stat."

Correct. That's why I said the forcefield wouldn't matter.

& while Wooper do use it in the wild in the games, those wild Wooper tend to do so because their AI is Random, & they only have like, 1 or a few other moves.

Indeed, but it's the best we got to go by.

A hostile, experienced, in-character Wooper probably isn't going to bother shaking its booty cutely at its opponent six times. Once might be plausible, more than that is unlikely when the opponent is trying to attack it.

I don't think it'd spam it multiple times in a row, but if Reflux is unable to be attacked, what else would it do in that deadtime? It won't just sit there doing nothing while fighting a kaiju. Though, an experienced Wooper, wouldn't that imply it actually knows how to make use of its moves properly?

Also, a solo Paldean Wooper (Or other kind of Wooper.) may not be at peak rationality in these circumstances, given this Pokedex entry:

They live in groups, most Pokemon do though, no implies that'd effect it mentality if it leaves its group.

If we're to extrapolate on Wooper's behaviour based on Clodsire's....

Scarlet	When attacked, this Pokémon will retaliate by sticking thick spines out from its body. It’s a risky move that puts everything on the line.

Mostly why I'm arguing it'd lead with poison to begin with. Otherwise lmao, it don't go shit beyond wild encounter AI.

Considering Wooper has a poisonous, sticky film on its body (But which also serves to keep it from dehydrating.), it might try to retaliate by going in physically, assuming it's not avoidant of attacks to preserve its hydration-preserving film.

Wooper isn't an aggressive mon in SV, it stands back, so I don't actually think it'd actively try to enter CQC.

Though Johto Quag doesn't mean much here, that's mostly just it being a lazy ass out of battle like Snorlax, and even then, a Quag will still dodge attacks if attacked in battle.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Wooper doesn't experience a sudden crazy boost in intelligence in combat, I believe- if he does, do feel free to show the evidence. When someone's profile says "actually they have this in regards to intelligence", that historically means they are competent enough in executing their strategies. Which is why I'm asking you for evidence that Wooper has, in the past, actually performed the strategies you're implying. Evidence seems to say the opposite.

You consistently imply Wooper is going to be performing these moves in the right order without considering what Reflux is doing in the meantime, and handwaved Reflux's behavior with recover lol. Yeah, I'm not convinced- it's less about the move being hyper complex (uhm, STRAWMAN!?) and more about it requiring more inputs.

It's listed in the OP as a downscale, so we agree. Reflux also considerably upscales. We seem to be in agreement so I'm not going to engage with the weird logic at work here.

Personal insults make for the best casual discussions, I'm very happy we've decided to go down this route, as it is always productive.

You keep telling me what the crux of my argument is, and yet not actually pointing out the crux of whatever argument I'm presenting, and then trying to make it about me rather than the actual flaws in your own points. My argument is the sum of the holes in your own- I'm here to vote and right now I observe flaws in what you're saying, flaws that rather than argue effectively to cover, you use to attack me. I don't really care about either entity here, you just have a worse argument than Reflux, why do you gotta act childish like this?

Yes, I am an evil foul man and everyone can see that, continuing on.

You argued, earlier, that it only needs to use Recover on a consistent basis. I asked for proof it has ever done that. You have now moved goalposts by saying "nono it's going to heal only when it's low"- what if it doesn't get the chance, homie? You just assume Wooper is going to have time for all of this without giving any due consideration to the alternative. That's the crux of my argument, if you can call it that- a fundamental flaw in yours.

This has instantly been shifted into toxicity, what the hell.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Alright I'm deciding to just state my position and dip, since the ad hominem is really not what I'm here for- I have no dog in this fight, I don't really follow either verse, I'm just trying to get my vote/opinion heard.

I think Wooper has to do too much to take advantage of every bonus he has, and the culmination of those moves is going to take time that Reflux is just going to spend beating the shit out of Wooper with ostensibly ranged homing attacks. Wooper has answers to some stuff (since this is game only and it hasn't been addressed, I don't know how many moves we assume Wooper to have? Didn't think of this before but either way it wouldn't change my verdict) but ultimately is forced to play defensively the entire time if he capitalizes on them until he exhausts himself.

Smaller considerations are the forcefield (directional or not, I consider it to be a noteworthy advantage that stops quite a few of Wooper's attacks outright), the fact that Reflux seems generally more intelligent (acknowledging Wooper's specific combat intelligence, of course), and Reflux's ability to negate Wooper's main advantage via weakening himself somewhat.

I say all of the above acknowledging Wooper's potential options, including Recover- still, I don't find these to be particularly convincing arguments. So, TL;DR, I still vote for Reflux.

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

Wooper doesn't experience a sudden crazy boost in intelligence in combat, I believe- if he does, do feel free to show the evidence. When someone's profile says "actually they have this in regards to intelligence", that historically means they are competent enough in executing their strategies. Which is why I'm asking you for evidence that Wooper has, in the past, actually performed the strategies you're implying. Evidence seems to say the opposite.

You consistently imply Wooper is going to be performing these moves in the right order without considering what Reflux is doing in the meantime, and handwaved Reflux's behavior with recover lol. Yeah, I'm not convinced- it's less about the move being hyper complex (uhm, STRAWMAN!?) and more about it requiring more inputs.

It's listed in the OP as a downscale, so we agree. Reflux also considerably upscales. We seem to be in agreement so I'm not going to engage with the weird logic at work here.

Personal insults make for the best casual discussions, I'm very happy we've decided to go down this route, as it is always productive.

You keep telling me what the crux of my argument is, and yet not actually pointing out the crux of whatever argument I'm presenting, and then trying to make it about me rather than the actual flaws in your own points. My argument is the sum of the holes in your own- I'm here to vote and right now I observe flaws in what you're saying, flaws that rather than argue effectively to cover, you use to attack me. I don't really care about either entity here, you just have a worse argument than Reflux, why do you gotta act childish like this?

Yes, I am an evil foul man and everyone can see that, continuing on.

You argued, earlier, that it only needs to use Recover on a consistent basis. I asked for proof it has ever done that. You have now moved goalposts by saying "nono it's going to heal only when it's low"- what if it doesn't get the chance, homie? You just assume Wooper is going to have time for all of this without giving any due consideration to the alternative. That's the crux of my argument, if you can call it that- a fundamental flaw in yours.

This has instantly been shifted into toxicity, what the hell.

toxicity

bro. Chariot ain't doing anything like that. you're the one that's taking it further than it should.

 

[Imaginym]

Same, given it's the form with the hoodlum eject.

Nah that's why I said netgain, I was taking into account possible buffs like Amnesia but i was also taking into account it was only a 3x difference, not 4x, in which case it'd be nearly an 8x netgain.

Correct. That's why I said the forcefield wouldn't matter.

Indeed, but it's the best we got to go by.

I don't think it'd spam it multiple times in a row, but if Reflux is unable to be attacked, what else would it do in that deadtime? It won't just sit there doing nothing while fighting a kaiju. Though, an experienced Wooper, wouldn't that imply it actually knows how to make use of its moves properly?

It doesn't know the forcefield blocks all kinds of attacks, so it might try moves that are physical or special, or contact or non-contact, or are different types than what it's previously used.

They live in groups, most Pokemon do though, no implies that'd effect it mentality if it leaves its group.

The Pokedex says "It's dangerous for Wooper to travel alone.". Presumably, Wooper travel in groups with this in mind. I don't think it'd be terrified, but I do think it wouldn't be in the mood where it'd want to tag its tail at this new, hostile encounter.

Wooper isn't an aggressive mon in SV, it stands back, so I don't actually think it'd actively try to enter CQC.

Being non-aggressive would also mean not attacking in general, ranged or otherwise. (Plus, aren't the combatants hostile by default SBA?)

This would be a case for being more likely to use Status Moves.
To its credit, Yawn & Stockpile could be quite potent, as well as Amnesia, if Reflux uses non-physical moves.

In theory, being passive unless attacked & seeing its foe be invulnerable except when attacking might make it likely to use Counter:
"A retaliatory attack that counters any physical move, inflicting double the damage taken."

IDK if it'll work, but it's a thing.

Although, that's an Egg Move. An arguably more IC Egg Move is Acid Spray:
"The user attacks by spitting fluid that works to melt the target. This also harshly lowers the target's Sp. Def stat."

Especially if we're assuming favoring ranged attacks.

Though Johto Quag doesn't mean much here, that's mostly just it being a lazy ass out of battle like Snorlax, and even then, a Quag will still dodge attacks if attacked in battle.

Fair. I'd say more Oblivious than lazy, but they're pretty similar here.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

bro. Chariot ain't doing anything like that. you're the one that's taking it further than it should.

I mean, he definitely implied up there that I'm some kind of menace to the wiki that people need to reign in lol, I dunno what messages you're reading.

This is a pretty teeny match, one I don't have a stake in, but it definitely came to personal jabs for basically no reason.

 

[Chariot190]

It doesn't know the forcefield blocks all kinds of attacks, so it might try moves that are physical or special, or contact or non-contact, or are different types than what it's previously used.

It doesn't block all kinds of attacks though?
also it doesnt even have the forcefield in the hoodlum phase

The Pokedex says "It's dangerous for Wooper to travel alone.". Presumably, Wooper travel in groups with this in mind. I don't think it'd be terrified, but I do think it wouldn't be in the mood where it'd want to tag its tail at this new, hostile encounter.

I interpreted that as Wooper being pretty dogshit weak by Pokemon standards and is a prey Pokemon.
baby woopers literally do that on encounter, why would a fully maxed out wooper be scared

Being non-aggressive would also mean not attacking in general, ranged or otherwise. (Plus, aren't the combatants hostile by default SBA?)

You were arguing if Wooper would actively try to engage physically, I was saying in SV, they don't inherently do that.

This would be a case for being more likely to use Status Moves. To its credit, Yawn & Stockpile could be quite potent, as well as Amnesia, if Reflux uses non-physical moves.

It does in part yeah.

In theory, being passive unless attacked & seeing its foe be invulnerable except when attacking might make it likely to use Counter: "A retaliatory attack that counters any physical move, inflicting double the damage taken."

Perhaps?

Although, that's an Egg Move. An arguably more IC Egg Move is Acid Spray: "The user attacks by spitting fluid that works to melt the target. This also harshly lowers the target's Sp. Def stat."

Oh, that could be brutal, a Sp.Def Drop would add up fast.

Especially if we're assuming favoring ranged attacks.

I'm just assuming it won't rush in my blud dont got hands..., because that's one of the few things we know from its behavior. Past that, **** if I know what it'd lead with beyond probably poison.

Wooper doesn't experience a sudden crazy boost in intelligence in combat, I believe- if he does, do feel free to show the evidence. When someone's profile says "actually they have this in regards to intelligence", that historically means they are competent enough in executing their strategies. Which is why I'm asking you for evidence that Wooper has, in the past, actually performed the strategies you're implying. Evidence seems to say the opposite.

"gifted in battle" "pokemon can adapt and stuff"
But apparently not here because?
The evidence? Bruh we're using a wild trashmob, who has two lines of text? What do you expect?

The fact I'm only arguing that it'd use those eventually, or what it uses in wild battles or poison as a lead should be good enough as it factors in their ability to adapt in battle in response to the foe and siuation, instead of just presuming what it'd lead with.

You consistently imply Wooper is going to be performing these moves in the right order without considering what Reflux is doing in the meantime,

"Uh, what? Toxic and poison is in character, it learns and uses both yawn and moves like tail whip in wild encounters against the player.
And well Recover, do I need to explain why healing when it gets hurt a lot is obvious?

And assuming you simply missed what I said before and aren't just ignoring it on purpose, he doesn't need to string these together in some perfect combo, it can heal, and it's going to have the chance to do whatever it wants, it's only a matter of time and Reflux isn't killing it before that, they're almost equal to start with. Wooper can adapt in battle, it can heal itself meaning if Option 1 doesn't work, it heals and tries something else.

Pretending it's some hypercomplex combo to discredit it ain't it chief. None of them even have to be done in order.
Tail Whip? Permanent debuff, doesn't need contact with him to work.
Amnesia? Permanent buffs, enhances special attack and special defense quite a bit.
Mud Shot? Permanent speed debuff, ranged attack.
Toxic or the ten fucktillion poison moves it has? Well poison doesn't just vanish.

The ONLY move it has where doing it in order would matter would be yawn, but that still leaves Reflux open for a good number of attacks, and that's assuming he wakes back up." - me 5 minutes ago.

and handwaved Reflux's behavior with recover lol. Yeah, I'm not convinced- it's less about the move being hyper complex (uhm, STRAWMAN!?) and more about it requiring more inputs.

Yes, Recover is going negate most what it can do, it's a massive heal that's basically instant.

Not even a strawman this time because you yourself stated "Wooper is going to string together the perfect combo of moves to not only survive but also perfectly counter everything". No offense but I'd call "perfect combo to perfectly counter everything", very complex, doubly so now that you brought stringing them together into the equation, ignoring the fact absolutely none of them have to be used in any order whatsoever except yawn.

It's listed in the OP as a downscale, so we agree. Reflux also considerably upscales. We seem to be in agreement so I'm not going to engage with the weird logic at work here.

So ignore every caveat to it and things that mitigate that? Like surely you know what STAB is? This ain't weird logic, it's a passive quality.
I agree Wooper starts off with a disadvantage, I just don't think a small advantage like that is notable enough especially when Wooper has like 5 moves that can turn it around.

Personal insults make for the best casual discussions, I'm very happy we've decided to go down this route, as it is always productive.

I never once insulted you? I definitely implied you were being quite abrasive, but I never made a "personal insult" against you.
If anything that's pretty hypocritical.

You keep telling me what the crux of my argument is, and yet not actually pointing out the crux of whatever argument I'm presenting, and then trying to make it about me rather than the actual flaws in your own points.

You're arguing it, you're doing it right now, if you do not want to, wait for Kuwa to elaborate ad vote after everything had been clarified and established? As it stands you're actively voting based on a paradoxical reason, one you even acknowledged.

My argument is the sum of the holes in your own- I'm here to vote and right now I observe flaws in what you're saying, flaws that rather than argue effectively to cover, you use to attack me.

Your argument is more twisting what I said to the umpteenth degree, kinda shocked if anything. Almost every reply of yours has either been blatant strawmanning, twisting what I said, or just not acknowledging huge flaws such as the forcefield and hoodlum eject can't be sustained simultaneously.

I don't really care about either entity here, you just have a worse argument than Reflux,

That isn't relevant?

why do you gotta act childish like this?

Yeah, but I'm the lad making ad hominems and insulting others

Yes, I am an evil foul man and everyone can see that, continuing on.

you could act less rude and demeaning brother

You argued, earlier, that it only needs to use Recover on a consistent basis. I asked for proof it has ever done that. You have now moved goalposts by saying "nono it's going to heal only when it's low"- what if it doesn't get the chance, homie?

I argued it'd use Recover to heal off the damage it took? As in "it'd heal off the damage it took while setting up/debuffing/etc", I thought that spoke for itself? If it wasn't low why would it heal? It wouldn't need to heal if it hadn't taken any notable damage? And what chance? Recover is thought-based and nigh-instant.
I ain't taking the fall for this one, that's on you lad. Also counter is devastating for anything that isn't a one-shot.

You just assume Wooper is going to have time for all of this without giving any due consideration to the alternative. That's the crux of my argument, if you can call it that- a fundamental flaw in yours.

Yeah Recover is basically instant and doesn't need to move or hit anything, same with all the stat moves, if they're fighting at any relevant range at all, I wouldn't be surprised if he got like ten off. It's basically a thought-based heal.
this goes both ways by the way, Reflux takes long to eject Hoodlums, he's completely vulnerable while doing it, a lot of his attacks are big wind ups or basic punches, he does have a sonic ranged attack though that one is actually fair.

You're simply ignoring the mechanics of some of these moves, of course a move that doesn't need to make contact, a move that's instant, a move that's visual contact, etc are going to be quicker than an attack that needs to travel from Point A to Point B to hit a target. Worst of all though is I never said Reflux wouldn't be attacking, I acknowledged that numerous times, but as just outlined, Wooper can dodge a punch, but can Reflux dodge a tail whip, toxic, massive sludge AOE, etc?

This has instantly been shifted into toxicity, what the hell.

I don't think it's gotten that bad yet, though

I think Wooper has to do too much to take advantage of every bonus he has,

He literally just needs to use Toxic and Reflux dies, or is forced to eject and become frozen

and the culmination of those moves is going to take time that Reflux is just going to spend beating the shit out of Wooper with ostensibly ranged homing attacks.

The Final Key barely uses homing attacks? (And they're "homing" attacks, they barely home). And Wooper actually has better AOE and ranged options.

Wooper has answers to some stuff (since this is game only and it hasn't been addressed, I don't know how many moves we assume Wooper to have?

Ask the pokemon nerds, I wouldn't be against limiting them to 4 in the future unless there's lore saying otherwise.

Didn't think of this before but either way it wouldn't change my verdict) but ultimately is forced to play defensively the entire time if he capitalizes on them until he exhausts himself.

If it plays defensively the entire time, why wouldn't it use Amnesia? A move that boosts its defenses?

since the ad hominem is really not what I'm here for

But actually, what DID he mean by this?

Alright I'm deciding to just state my position and dip,

Have a good night.

I mean, he definitely implied up there that I'm some kind of menace to the wiki that people need to reign in lol, I dunno what messages you're reading.

I think you're reading a bit to far into what was me saying you were being kinda rude and that's why you get a bad rep so like, don't

 

[Mr. Bambu]

If you like. Vote stands. Curious, though- are you not one of the Pokemon guys? If so, could ask someone else about the limited moves thing.

 

[Imaginym]

It doesn't block all kinds of attacks though?
also it doesnt even have the forcefield in the hoodlum phase

My bad? Please clarify how it does work, please?

You were arguing if Wooper would actively try to engage physically, I was saying in SV, they don't inherently do that.

& to my understanding, you cited, as the basis for them not engaging physically as their non-aggressive nature.
Being non-aggressive means not attacking, whether up close or with projectiles.
I can see how something passive might lean slightly more towards ranged attacks than close-up attacks, but if it's passive, it might go for Status Moves over either of those, I suppose.

Oh, that could be brutal, a Sp.Def Drop would add up fast.

Acid Spray's effect is in fact a -2 to Sp. Def.

In Pokemon gameplay, statistics modification stages go:
2/8 2/7 2/6 2/5 2/4 2/3 2/2 3/2 4/2 5/2 6/2 7/2 8/2
From -6, to 0 to +6.

So going from a Stage of 0 to -2 means going to 2/4ths, or 50% of normal. Another -2 puts the affected at 2/6th (33.33%~), & being at -6 means being at 25%, or four times as vulnerable as normally. Diminishing returns are disappointing, though.
IDK if we have non-Pokemon able to go beyond the scope of these stat stages, like being at -8, for example.

I'm just assuming it won't rush in my blud dont got hands..., because that's one of the few things we know from its behavior. Past that, ***** if I know what it'd lead with beyond probably poison.

In theory, if it's feeling lazy, Yawn, maybe? That'd require Reflux to perceive it, like with Tail Whip, though.
Poison Jab seems like a move likely to involve spines like Clodsire does for its moves, but it has other Poison in manipulation.

"gifted in battle" "pokemon can adapt and stuff"
But apparently not here because?
The evidence? Bruh we're using a wild trashmob, who has two lines of text? What do you expect?

IIRC, justifications include stuff like Pokemon being very enthusiastic about battling, readily training for it, battling a lot in the wild....

Tail Whip? Permanent debuff, doesn't need contact with him to work.
Amnesia? Permanent buffs, enhances special attack and special defense quite a bit.

Amnesia is +2 Sp. Def. It doesn't influence Special Attack.
Also:
"The user temporarily empties its mind to forget its concerns. This sharply boosts the user's Sp. Def stat."
This isn't a good idea if Wooper being tactical is necessary for victory.

Mud Shot? Permanent speed debuff, ranged attack.

50% of the time, if it hits.

 

[Chariot190]

I am not.

In fact I used to argue against some of the suspect upgrades like 5-A/4-C Meteor (for an impact that only razed the planet) and other such things. Do wanna make a Slither Wing profile tho he based this thread tells me I should work on a standard tactic section at least, thankfully it's an aggressive mon that chases you down on sight so it liking CQC is a safe bet
If there's some lore that implies 4 moves is just game mechanics, I can't recall. I'll try and contact some of the pokenerds ig, I have a few in DM's for one reason or another.

 

[Chariot190]

My bad? Please clarify how it does work, please?

In phase 1 it's a forcefield, but it's only in front of him, like a flat circle. Any spawn atop or AOE move should be able to get around it with little issue.
In phase 2 though, the forcefield is on the scepter only, not its main body.

& to my understanding, you cited, as the basis for them not engaging physically as their non-aggressive nature.
Being non-aggressive means not attacking, whether up close or with projectiles.
I can see how something passive might lean slightly more towards ranged attacks than close-up attacks, but if it's passive, it might go for Status Moves over either of those, I suppose.

You know what I meant, they're a Pokemon that doesn't chase you down or rush into CQC unlike, well Slither Wing as an example.
Beyond that tho fair.

Acid Spray's effect is in fact a -2 to Sp. Def.

Thought it was -1, that's even worse.

In Pokemon gameplay, statistics modification stages go: 2/8 2/7 2/6 2/5 2/4 2/3 2/2 3/2 4/2 5/2 6/2 7/2 8/2 From -6, to 0 to +6. So going from a Stage of 0 to -2 means going to 2/4ths, or 50% of normal. Another -2 puts the affected at 2/6th (33.33%~), & being at -6 means being at 25%, or four times as vulnerable as normally. Diminishing returns are disappointing, though.

Oh, I knew 1 stage was 50%, didn't know it worked exactly like that tho.

IDK if we have non-Pokemon able to go beyond the scope of these stat stages, like being at -8, for example.

Eh, I'd say -6 is the cap imo. But that's just me.

In theory, if it's feeling lazy, Yawn, maybe? That'd require Reflux to perceive it, like with Tail Whip, though.
Poison Jab seems like a move likely to involve spines like Clodsire does for its moves, but it has other Poison in manipulation.

I'm going to assume Reflux is looking at Wooper 90% of the time based on the fact they're fighting.
How do we treat Toxic Spikes actually?

IIRC, justifications include stuff like Pokemon being very enthusiastic about battling, readily training for it, battling a lot in the wild....

Those too they train for battle in the wild?, but they also adapt, like if a Pokemon that isn't completely inexperienced sees a foe do something, they're not gonna keep doing what hasn't been working.

Amnesia is +2 Sp. Def. It doesn't influence Special Attack.

i started wth gen 1 plz forgive

"The user temporarily empties its mind to forget its concerns. This sharply boosts the user's Sp. Def stat." This isn't a good idea if Wooper being tactical is necessary for victory.

Eh, that obviously only lasts a second given a Pokemon can use that, and be fine by the time it's the next time to attack or to dodge the incoming attack in battle.

50% of the time, if it hits.

True.

 

[Armorchompy]

why you guys gotta fight while i'm sleeping man

 

[SamanPatou]

Throwing my two cents in here to say that we might treat status and healing moves as somewhat of a double-edged sword. Or, to be clearer, to follow the idea given in the games, aka their boons being the trade-off of remaining exposed.
It technically makes sense even logically, aside from the turn-based battle system holding some sort of resemblance to a real battle.
This to say that Wooper has to be careful when using them and most likely can't simply spam them.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Also he could just dodge, a giant trying to grab you is a pretty obvious tel

A gigant grab that is MFTL+ because he is attacking

He might not be that smart, but it is Gifted in battle

Reflux is the champion of a race that is invincible to other low 7-B creatures and he himself has dealed with his own tribe quirks like his own barrier and combat speed, having a record of 28 victories by KO(in the last season) and making no Knaaren want to fight him anymore, only being defeated by Rayman, this Reflux is even stronger thanks to Leptys and Andre

I would say they are even in battle smarts, Reflux is stupid compared to adult Pokemon, but has experience and if we count Andre, he has a coach inside his body

if he's poisoned, why would ejecting hoodlums change that? It isn't like Wooper is targeting them

His body is composed of hoodlums acting as cells or even the whole body, when he is out of energy, he dies and transforms into a crystal, shattering

And let´s be civil, here please, this battle does not needs to be heated

In my opinion, Wooper can win if he lands toxic, poison is not as powerful and has more chance to do that in the latest part of the fight

If he can damage reflux enough in the first phases, he then steamrolls, but with the gigant phase and onwards, he has to attack the scepter instead of the body unless he lands his debuffs and buff himself, but with every phase, Reflux is becoming stronger too (I don´t know if the debuff would still be active but let´s say no for the sake of Wooper being able to land more debuffs because that would affect the body in a higher %)

And the scepter is in his back, so he has to land attacks while Reflux is constantly facing him and only lowering his guard with a bad punch, but that punch is still faster than Wooper and no ammount of Speed debuff can make the MFTL+ attack speed drop to his level

And the flying one and final one are by far the easiest for him but Wooper can´t do any ground attack at that point, and with the flying phase, he also has to fight with a terrain that is levitating, so he has to adapt to that first

For now I won´t vote, this battle for me is "Reflux wins in the early game and Wooper if survives, wins in the late game" and this is via % , so if he lands early toxic, gg, if not and Reflux do massive damage at early, he wins, if Wooper do massive stalling, he wins, if he only buff his SP defense, reflux physical staffs attacks still make him win, etc

And I also can´t see wooper dodging Reflu's shockwave, of his first phase, not even counting mftl+ attack speed, normally, how is he gonna dodge a "continous earthquake" type of attack? Rayman has to jump and then float to dodge it, if Wooper can do it somehow, then Reflux is tired at least

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Amnesia is +2 Sp. Def. It doesn't influence Special Attack.

Gen 1 player confirmed

 

[Chariot190]

Throwing my two cents in here to say that we might treat status and healing moves as somewhat of a double-edged sword. Or, to be clearer, to follow the idea given in the games, aka their boons being the trade-off of remaining exposed.
It technically makes sense even logically, aside from the turn-based battle system holding some sort of resemblance to a real battle.
This to say that Wooper has to be careful when using them and most likely can't simply spam them.

Why though? If anything they should be quicker in a "real battle".
Recover for example is a thought-based move, it doesn't need to hit the foe, it doesn't need to wait for anything, and it affects Wooper itself. Status moves sure, but that more depends on what the move is, something like Sunny Day, Swords Dance, and Wish would take notable time, or Toxic Spikes, but would Growl for example really leave a mon so vulnerable?

A gigant grab that is MFTL+ because he is attacking

So it's combat speed, which is what's equalized?

Reflux is the champion of a race that is invincible to other low 7-B creatures and he himself has dealed with his own tribe quirks like his own barrier and combat speed, having a record of 28 victories by KO(in the last season) and making no Knaaren want to fight him anymore, only being defeated by Rayman, this Reflux is even stronger thanks to Leptys and Andre

I would say they are even in battle smarts, Reflux is stupid compared to adult Pokemon, but has experience and if we count Andre, he has a coach inside his body

28 wins ain't much though, at least in this context, if Imagnym is correct, they train and fight constantly in wild. If my understanding is correct, we use Lv100 max potential Pokemon.

He's stronger, but he's also far more simple and dumb.

His body is composed of hoodlums acting as cells or even the whole body, when he is out of energy, he dies and transforms into a crystal, shattering

Yeah this doesn't make sense, if he's toxic'd, his whole body is going to be poisoned, not just one or two. Can he survive ejecting all the hoodlums?

Hoodlums being ejected also leaves him completely vulnerable, leaving him open to even more attacks, to where he not only just gets Toxic'd again, bu several other attacks.

In my opinion, Wooper can win if he lands toxic, poison is not as powerful and has more chance to do that in the latest part of the fight

Poison spawns atop Reflux's body, coating his whole body in a purple hue, out of every attack Wooper has, it's the least difficult to land. It's basically a free hit.

If he can damage reflux enough in the first phases, he then steamrolls,

If he starts in phase 1, there isn't even a battle to be had. Reflux just gets poisoned and dies because the hoodlum stuff is in the final key only. And if he starts in the final key, his forcefield is almost a non-issue.

but with the gigant phase and onwards, he has to attack the scepter instead of the body unless he lands his debuffs and buff himself,

Not really, the scepter is a weakpont, but it's not the only point, his main body can still be poisoned, put to sleep, status'd, etc. With even less difficulty now that he's a larger target that has zero protection.

but with every phase, Reflux is becoming stronger too (I don´t know if the debuff would still be active but let´s say no for the sake of Wooper being able to land more debuffs because that would affect the body in a higher %)

The debuffs would absolutely still be active? There's zero reason why they wouldn't be.
And this isn't going to be like Rayman, if Reflux gets poisoned in phase 1, he dies because he can't eject hoodlums.

if Wooper do massive stalling, he wins, if he only buff his SP defense, reflux physical staffs attacks still make him win, etc

Wooper has curse that buffs up its def and atk (though that lowers his speed, but mud shot could help to offset that), he also has acid spray and a few other moves that make Reflux far more fragile too. Though I will say, Reflux and Wooper aren't that far apart to begin with, a STAB strong poison or ground move would make up for a lot of that gap.

And I also can´t see wooper dodging Reflu's shockwave, of his first phase, not even counting mftl+ attack speed, normally, how is he gonna dodge a "continous earthquake" type of attack? Rayman has to jump and then float to dodge it, if Wooper can do it somehow, then Reflux is tired at least

Just jumping? but then again how high can it jump idk, we dont use anime anymore Same goes for Reflux too btw, how would he avoid Sludge Wave or Wooper's own Earthquake? They're massive AOE moves with an even larger range than anything he has.
He could inversely just tank it, buff up to mitigate it, heal it off afterward, etc. Use yawn or something to put him to sleep.

Idk lad, the forcefield and hoodlum eject just seem a tad overblown to me, the forcefield is one way and a large number of Wooper's attacks have AOE to them, only need visual contact, or just ignore it entirely and the hoodlum eject leaves it in a state it's basically frozen and that's assuming it can eject the specific parts of it that are poisoned, under the assumption it as a whole isn't poisoned flat-out, and is a thing only in the final phase (Meaning if he starts in phase 1, bro might never even get a chance to save himself).

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

So it's combat speed, which is what's equalized?

Attack Speed​

The speed at which an attack moves. For example, X character is hypersonic, but he can do an attack that is a natural beam of light, the speed for the attack is different from the speed of the user, hence the attack would be lightspeed even if its user isn't.

At this point, I don´t know what Reflux has as combat speed and attack speed, I will drop it and let a Rayman supporter say what moves are "attack speed" because I am getting confused

28 wins ain't much though, at least in this context, if Imagnym is correct, they train and fight constantly in wild. If my understanding is correct, we use Lv100 max potential Pokemon.

In the last season and also fought other races, that is the only info, also fighting Rayman and being one of his strongest foes

Can he survive ejecting all the hoodlums?

Andre is creating more hoodlums as the fight goes on, is not regeneration because it works on energy, without energy, gg, dead, that is why he dies, but for now, let´s focus on literally the first phase as you think he wins in that phase if he gets toxic

First phase: How is he gonna land an attack on Reflux who has danmaku, that increases the more damage he sustains t (so even if toxic lands, he then proceeds to beats him thanks to that damage) that is surely MFTL+ compared to the combat speed of both and then heals himself by stabbing himself with the scepter like he did in the fight?

If not danmakuing, he is then using a forcefield that even if it looks "one way" you can´t DAMAGE ANY KNAAREN in gameplay with that forcefield, you attack him from behind? It won´t work, it has the forcefield, and I will even play the game to get proof of this if necessary (Unless youtube has a video of someone being bad at trying to damage a Knaaren)

Poison spawns atop Reflux's body

Toxic is a proyectile by some games and in other it spawns of you, the forcefield still protects Reflux and if not, 90% accuracy or it has to land while the attack can be destroyed or has to surpass a his tornado of fire

At this point, if the attack is literally different from game to game, I find it less credible, also the fact that wooper can use moves while being bombarded

but Reflux has multiple layers of force fields in his final form

And by gameplay in the first phase, he does not drop said forcefield but I am giving it the benefit of "gameplay" as the Player has already fight normal reflux and to make it more interesting, you know has to destroy it with electricity, which was not available in the first fight

Because if we go by "Reflux has a permanent barrier" then I would literally give in, I don´t think any character here can deal with superior speed, danmaku and forcefields that has power nullification to attacks

Sludge Wave or Wooper's own Earthquake?

Sludge wave with the barrier, and Earthquake would destroy the battlefield but the forcefield can technically protect him? The fact that now this battle has to be "game only" makes me confused about a lot of things, because earthquake animation destroys the whole battlefield

Also, the range feats are using gameplay only? Because how is mud slap kilometers on range? Just questioning

Wooper has curse that buffs up its def and atk (though that lowers his speed, but mud shot could help to offset that), he also has acid spray and a few other moves that make Reflux far more fragile too. Though I will say, Reflux and Wooper aren't that far apart to begin with, a STAB strong poison or ground move would make up for a lot of that gap.

Wooper can upscale with certain moves and buffs, but naturally Reflux can literally tank Rayman AP with extremely ease, even if Rayman use attacks that are x2 his usual AP, attacks that are charged up and that was normal Reflux, this is mutated and his other forms are even stronger

The beginning of the fight is nightmare to Wooper, if he survives and can land everything he wins, but is % based and when working with % I don´t have an opinion of who wins

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

And the heat in my country is making me sick so I can´t even think properly right now, bad time to participate in tournaments