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Kingdom Hearts 3 Editing (SPOILERS)

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Kaltias The problem comes from amped-Xehanort. With the X-Blade, he is strong enough to wipe out the Universe via KH and the True X-Blade can channel its power. So basically, Xehanort with True X-Blade is 3-A and Sora and co are able to fight him while he is using it. So they likely scale to him which leads to the 3-A thing.

Besides, KH is more likely "At least 3-A, likely....". Nothing indicates it can only destroy the current Universe, it could affect other dimensions too.
 
Worldlines are implied to be timelines and I'm pretty sure are also sustained by the Kingdom Hearts. And I'm aware being shaped by higher-dimensional forces isn't inherently tier 2, but the Kingdom Hearts does actually scale to these higher-dimensional forces.
 
If its later decided to be Low 2-C, then due the tier 1% of Xehanort power would be also in the same tier and would scale to all the others char.
 
If it's shaped by higher dimensional forces and Xehanort hass consistent transcending space-time statements why aren't we considering this Low 2-C?
 
You missed my point entirely. And we've already been over the fact Sora would be 3-B/3-A via as long as Azathoth realizes that you can get degrees of Universal. Also, it's not baseline, it's doing this to the Realm of Light, the Realm of Darkness, and the Realm Between which would be three individual universal spaces. So if anything, I still think Sora should get 3-A, just with a different key or a varies thing. If we really need to come to a middle ground, we can treat the power of friendship like how Undertale treats its determination where tiering can fluctuate from 4-B to 3-A with Sora.

Counterparts should be regarded as near equal, we already have the Ventus-Vanitas key of Vanitas's page as having him comparable to Twilight Xemnas, who was amped by an Incomplete X-Blade which we regard as comparable to an Incomplete Kingdom Hearts.

I brought up Dialga and Palkia for the reason, they're treated as counterparts and equal. I didn't neglect them fighting in canon, the point was that most of the time you have a fictional author, they are going to regard a counterpart as being near equal if anything. This can be said for Link and Dark Link, Palkia and Dialga, Infinity and Eternity, and many more other examples in fiction where they share relation but are still regarded as equal.

Also, I think it should still possibly be 2-C. Realm of Darkness, by all means, is completely not connected to the Realm of Light, there is no time flow there unlike in the Realm of Light and it's an opposite universal space to it. Realm In Between should be also one because it's still considered a realm of its own as well. The higher dimensional thing would just be contextual support for this rating as well because it would outright be calling the X-Blade 4D with there being 4D KH feats to back it up.
 
I'm going to just say that if we treat all of the realms under the same universe, then Xehanort needs a solid Low 2-C for this. He talks about resetting everything to darkness, starting up a new world in his image. The X-Blade is also considered higher-dimensional along with many statements from Nomura and in-game of Master Xehanort transcending space and time. And it would be consistent even for it actually to be a universal reset as Xehanort himself has Acausality, meaning he'd be completely unaffected by a reset and would just remake it as he saw fit if it affects time as well.
 
@Inverted Tempest

"We would assume they would be a directable comparable potency as he already explained above."

Why, though? I am just asking what would be used to suggest that these things are comparable? For the X-Blade and KH, people originally acted as if there were multiple instances where these things were compared to each other in power, but could only bring statements of them being called "counterparts". If it's Xehanort's normal power being compared to KH's 3-A ability, why does everything he does scale to the ability that was going to be used to fulfill his ultimate goal? Having something as a power source does not mean you scale to its full potential, at all times no matter what you're doing.

"And if you're suggesting Xehanort is somehow using weaker attacks against Sora, this would require actual substantiation rather than "Oh well, Sora gets one-shotted by a 3-A attack, but him holding his own must be an outlier because of that!1!1!1!1!" And you do realize the fact he hurts Xehanort and blocks an initial attack and legitimately holds it back, to begin with, is enough to warrant scaling?"

I'm not shouting "OUTLIER LOL!!!". I'm asking why this entirely unrelated attack is 3-A, in the first place. Pretty much all of this runs on the idea that because Xehanort gained the power to control KH and KH was going to perform a 3-A feat, everything Xehanort does after obtaining it is 3-A, which is why Sora is scaling to this level, in the first place. I am just asking what actually suggests this, and why this should be the case, when Sora was killed by something less than KH's 3-A feat. I am not saying "it is impossible for him to be 3-A". I am saying "why does he scale when we don't know the power used against him in relation to the 3-A feat?". This wouldn't be as much of a problem if KH was a character and fighting Sora itself, because then we could just assume 3-A. But it's not, and Sora fought Xehanort, which is why I am trying to make sure there is something solid to support these tiers.

"Literally, you completely ignored the proposition where it was stated he would just be a lesser degree of 3-A than Xehanort is, you're literally being ignorant to propositions made in favor to come to a middle ground and trying to show double standards which literally staggering can count as remotely being comparable on this site."

First, see above. I am not ignoring that this is a possibility. I just want reason for Sora to even scale to this, in the first place. Second, "Sora is slightly lower 3-A" is not really a middle ground between "Sora is 3-A" and "Sora is not 3-A". This does not even seem to be the suggestion of "possibly 3-A" or something similar. You are just saying he's still 3-A but slightly weaker and calling it a middle ground, going by this comment. Please stop acting like you're extending me an olive branch and giving me some reasonable compromise and that I am ignoring all efforts to come to some kind of rational conclusion. It doesn't help us solve anything.

"You realize said darkness he was bringing out there was what he had used to erase the world, to begin with, right? He explained that in the link and the fact you really don't seem to know the context really makes it seem like you don't even know what you're arguing against when it's made evident as the day you agree with Kingdom Hearts being 3-A in Attack Potency but for some reason don't know the method."

I really, truly hope I wouldn't have to explain my reasoning as to why part of darkness that could swallow the universe is not equal to all of said darkness (which would be 3-A because it would erase the universe by covering it and making it "empty"), but please just continue to act like I don't know anything in order to try and make your point appear stronger.

"Being a counterpart would warrant this. The definition of counterpart is, "a person or thing holding a position or performing a function that corresponds to that of another person or thing in another place." When you think of counterpart in fiction, you generally get the idea of characters such as Infinity and Eternity, Dialga and Palkia, etc. who would canonically be called counterparts and should be comparable to each other by that. Hell, one of those pages alone I linked gives that as the sole AP justifications. This would literally just be you having more double standards against how this site handles such terms as "counterpart" if you are going to make an exclusive case with Kingdom Hearts."

These are not remotely comparable examples. Infinity and Eternity are a pair of characters who are two halves of a greater whole and are repeatedly shown to operate on a similar level of existence and power. Dialga and Palkia are a pair of characters who have done battle with each other on multiple occasions and shown to be comparable in strength. The X-Blade and Kingdom Hearts are not in the same boat, and neither of the two previous examples share a tier due solely to being counterparts.

"And I'm sorry if some of this comes off as rude but the problem I have is that you don't seem to even understand Kingdom Hearts but are arguing against things regardless."

You have not shown why I "don't understand Kingdom Hearts". The fact I disagree with you on why people should scale to the ultimate power source in the setting does not somehow demonstrate that I am completely in the dark on this franchise. You have not even really pulled anything up to show that I am somehow butchering the context of the scene I linked. You just kind of asserted that I was wrong, claimed double standards due to completely different cases, and came pretty close to trying to use "you just don't know what you're talking about" as a way of invalidating my points.

"Let me just say you need to actually stop and wait before saying "I agree with X mod". He legitimately knows next to nothing on the series by the looks of it and isn't even a knowledgeable member, I'd suggest actually getting staff who know the series to evaluate this thread rather than getting the input of a random one."

Scratch that, you did use "you just don't know what you're talking about" as a way of invalidating my points. This is despite the fact that almost all of what's being discussed here only takes into account a couple of scenes from the most recent game of the entire series, and most of the other stuff is easily accessible.

It is perfectly fine for us to disagree and have a debate about this, but please stop acting like the things I say hold no value simply because you think Sora is stronger than I do.
 
Because he was amplified by Kingdom Hearts and the fact he's shown to use it to that extent should absolutely mean everything else he does is outright comparable, why would we not assume otherwise? It's not like he's that tiering via hax or anything so it's only logical we assume it that way. Hitchen's Razor would indicate that the idea his attacks are weaker should be dismissed because it's literally baseless and has little to no actual reason if we know Xehanort does things of a direct 3-A potency with Kingdom Hearts. There's a difference with being powered by something and saying X thing can do something and a character actually showing direct potency with the thing they are utilizing because Xehanort literally did accomplish his goal before Sora used Power of Waking and undid it.

This goes for the second point as well, he got killed initially because his friends died, I already explained how those bonds actively give Sora strength. Demon Tide might as well be one of the biggest PIS moments in KH III, there are many others like that where Disney characters > Organization Members. Aqua and Mickey already clapped Demon Tide as well, it's literally just inconsistent and for the suspense building narrative of just how powerful the foe they're facing is. Sora at his best, with NOBODY killed, takes on KH amped Xehanort who can perform a 3-A feat with it, he's got no reason not to scale to it.

No, I said we could add a varies thing since you're trying to call it inconsistent. If you don't want it as his definitive tiering, that's literally why I said it can be given the Undertale treatment considering Power of Friendship canonically does give Sora strength, it would just mean it varies due to that prospect. Don't misrepresent what I said, simple as that.

Alright, now you're playing the victim to try to mitigate my points. Look, I already apologized for being aggressive if I was. However, it's literally hard not to when you were not understanding what I was saying at all and it really does not seem like you know what you're talking about. It's not because I just disagree with you, it literally just seems like you don't know the plotted events honestly. But I already explained why he died to that to other people above so this point is still openly irrelevant.

Infinity's literal AP justification is, and I quote, "The equal half of Eternity." And on the Abstract Existence page, Infinity is mentioned as a counterpart to Eternity. And you didn't get the example, just like Kaltias. The point was that when you have counterparts in fiction, they are generally seen as being equivalent to each other in power, especially when describing the two objects of power. In what way would we assume them being counterparts otherwise? Hell, even if we're going to say the X-Blade isn't on par with True Kingdom Hearts for no reason, that doesn't stop the fact it's called higher-dimensional, wielded by a dude who transcends space and time, and empowered completely by a source of power that does an eclipsing above baseline 3-A feat.

No, I just said I really doubt you know what you're talking about in terms of the series overall. I do not see you on the knowledgeable member list despite being a very active member here and you just kept asking for statements for already obvious things like Sora getting strength from his friends, something that's present in literally every Kingdom Hearts game. I do not know if you're trying to play a victim card for some sort of sympathy, but it really seems like it is that way. So in short, I have a valid reason to assume what I did.

That's not what I said in regards to Ant as well, I'm just saying that's a common thing he does is just assume mods are right, not really giving reasoning on why he thinks they are right. I think you know as well it's far better for someone on the managing staff who is actually knowledgeable on Kingdom Hearts to evaluate the thread as well. That's not me trying to invalidate what I said, it's objectively better though to have people who know a series vs someone who doesn't to look over what's being said content revision wise.
 
"Hitchen's Razor would indicate that the idea his attacks are weaker should be dismissed because it's literally baseless and has little to no actual reason if we know Xehanort does things of a direct 3-A potency with Kingdom Hearts. There's a difference with being powered by something and saying X thing can do something and a character actually showing direct potency with the thing they are utilizing because Xehanort literally did accomplish his goal before Sora used Power of Waking and undid it."

I don't think we're talking about the same thing.

"This goes for the second point as well, he got killed initially because his friends died, I already explained how those bonds actively give Sora strength. Demon Tide might as well be one of the biggest PIS moments in KH III, there are many others like that where Disney characters > Organization Members."

Okay, we're definitely not talking about the same thing. I don't mean when Demon Tide murdered everyone and Sora had to undo everything. I mean Xehanort himself killing Sora. These are drastically different, and I don't really think the Demon Tide one is related to the conversation.

"Sora at his best, with NOBODY killed, takes on KH amped Xehanort who can perform a 3-A feat with it, he's got no reason not to scale to it."

This is part of where I disagree. The 3-A feat did not seem to be something that Xehanort was going to channel through himself/perform himself, but more so something KH was going to do due to him making it do so. He seemed to suggest KH was capable of doing so after his own defeat. It was not an attack Xehanort was going to perform, but instead he was going to use KH to return the world to an empty state. This ties into how he says this is going to happen and that Sora is too late, even though Xehanort can hardly even stand after the battle. Everyone's dialogue seems to suggest this was something KH itself would do this after Xehanort commands it to, which is why I am so unsure about just scaling this to everything else Xehanort does.

"No, I said we could add a varies thing since you're trying to call it inconsistent. If you don't want it as his definitive tiering, that's literally why I said it can be given the Undertale treatment considering Power of Friendship canonically does give Sora strength, it would just mean it varies due to that prospect. Don't misrepresent what I said, simple as that."

Go back to my comment or your comment I'm replying to. Read what you said to me. Read what I am replying to. You mentioned adding a "varies" tier to Kaltias, not me. Now note how I said "going by this comment", because the proposition you made for adding a "varies" is not one you made until after you had originally replied to my comment, which is after you told me I was being ignorant of propositions made to come to a middle ground. If you actually are fine with "possibly" or "varies", that is more reasonable, but perhaps it should be a separate key, as well. Not sure on the specifics.

"Alright, now you're playing the victim to try to mitigate my points. Look, I already apologized for being aggressive if I was."

I am not complaining about you being aggressive. I am complaining about you acting like I have no idea what I'm saying because we disagree, which I take far more of an issue with with than being aggressive. You literally did this in your apology for being rude. "And I'm sorry if some of this comes off as rude but the problem I have is that you don't seem to even understand Kingdom Hearts but are arguing against things regardless." These are your words.

"However, it's literally hard not to when you were not understanding what I was saying at all and it really does not seem like you know what you're talking about."

Just earlier in your comment, you completely misunderstood something I was talking about, mistaking me talking about Xehanort blasting Sora for me talking about the Demon Tide. Do I now have free reign to go "wow, you have no idea what you're talking about"?

"It's not because I just disagree with you, it literally just seems like you don't know the plotted events honestly. But I already explained why he died to that to other people above so this point is still openly irrelevant."

Again, wrong thing entirely.

"Infinity's literal AP justification is, and I quote, "The equal half of Eternity." And on the Abstract Existence page, Infinity is mentioned as a counterpart to Eternity. And you didn't get the example, just like Kaltias."

I actively explained to you why this isn't the only reason they share a tier.

"The point was that when you have counterparts in fiction, they are generally seen as being equivalent to each other in power, especially when describing the two objects of power. In what way would we assume them being counterparts otherwise?"

Things that are "counterparts" in fiction sometimes being "equivalent in power" does not remotely mean this is the case for everything. Again, you are trying to compare a pair of characters to a blade used to summon something and the heart of all worlds. Secondly, being something's counterpart in no way has to be in regards to power unless specified.

"Hell, even if we're going to say the X-Blade isn't on par with True Kingdom Hearts for no reason, that doesn't stop the fact it's called higher-dimensional, wielded by a dude who transcends space and time, and empowered completely by a source of power that does an eclipsing above baseline 3-A feat."

The X-Blade is not stated to be higher-dimensional. It is stated to be "forged via a high-dimensional clash" , which does not equate to power. I am unsure what the statement of Xehanort being able to "transcend space and time" has to do with him being 3-A, as this seems to be in regards to his ability to travel through time and space, not to bust a universe. As for the last one, again, I just want to know why we should scale Xehanort to a 3-A feat KH was going to perform just because he took control of it. How does KH being able to return the world to a state of emptiness make all of Xehanort's attacks universal? I ask this because I'm pretty sure we don't do this with a number of characters, and am wondering why this case is different when I don't think Xehanort even explicitly mentions the purge of everything in detail until after he's lost. If we do come to a middle ground, I really just want to find some decent justification for it to slap on the profile.

"No, I just said I really doubt you know what you're talking about in terms of the series overall. I do not see you on the knowledgeable member list despite being a very active member here and you just kept asking for statements for already obvious things like Sora getting strength from his friends, something that's present in literally every Kingdom Hearts game."

The knowledgeable member list? You mean the list I can add myself to but frequently don't even for verses I follow extremely heavily? That is a matter of preference. I do not add my name to every single verse I am familiar with, because I usually don't believe I have "all the answers" or can delve super deeply into more obscure lore. It does not mean I know little to nothing about any verse I am not listed under, and it does not mean I am unable to take part in discussion about said verses.

Also, I just looked back through my comments, and unless I glossed over it, I could not find an example of myself asking someone to show an example of Sora getting strength through his friends, which is super obvious. The thing I consistently asked for were statements about the X-Blade, which is an entirely different matter. I'm unsure of where you're getting this, and think you may have possibly misread something I wrote due to phrasing, but I can assure you that is not something I "just kept asking for".

"I do not know if you're trying to play a victim card for some sort of sympathy, but it really seems like it is that way."

No, I am trying to point out that repeatedly stating that I do not know what I'm talking about is not a way to actually counter my points. It's just a shitty thing to do, and does not help us get anywhere. Me saying "stop doing this, it doesn't help" is not "playing the victim card".

"That's not what I said in regards to Ant as well, I'm just saying that's a common thing he does is just assume mods are right, not really giving reasoning on why he thinks they are right."

Do you want him to restate my points, again? All he's saying is that he believes I make sense. He did not even say "I agree with Azathoth, let's close this thread, now". He just expressed that he agreed with me. I can think of quite a few cases where Ant has vehemently disagreed with staff.

"I think you know as well it's far better for someone on the managing staff who is actually knowledgeable on Kingdom Hearts to evaluate the thread as well. That's not me trying to invalidate what I said, it's objectively better though to have people who know a series vs someone who doesn't to look over what's being said content revision wise."

Dude, I don't know how vast you think someone's knowledge of KH has to be to even take part in this thread, but I know about Kingdom Hearts. Do I know every last thing there is to know about the series? No. Have I played every game to 100% completion? No. But I am familiar with it and provided links to the exact moments I was talking about. Your idea about my lack of knowledge does not invalidate things I say, and I am still able to have a discussion and present my ideas about the series. Someone who knows more about Kingdom Hearts would not invalidate my points by saying "I know more about Kingdom Hearts and you're wrong so there". They would provide counterpoints, the same as anyone else. They would just be more equipped to do so should they wish due to having a greater knowledge of the series.
 
I am a big KH fan and I honestly think Azzy makes sense.

I just think there is alot of skepticism with the feats we can bring into question.

Also, KH has a very sort of relaxed lexicon. World can be planet, star, universe etc.

And the scaling? Well usually it is easy but for Xehanort you could argue it is clear cut that only he scales.

I might have missed something tho, as I was more focused on writing my book then I was watching the KH 3 the movie ╠Âc╠Âu╠Âz╠ ╠Âf╠Âu╠Âc╠Âk╠ ╠Âs╠Âq╠Âu╠Âa╠Âr╠Âe╠ ╠Âe╠Ân╠Âi╠Âx╠ cuz I honestly sort of lost my interest with the verse.

But hey, enough derailing.

Also, for gods sake guys. You don't need to know every folicle of lore on Sora's head to debate a CRT. It helps alot, but an opinion is an opinion. Welcome to the Market Place of ideas.

Now I just have one question Azzy since I have trouble keeping up with your warhammer length comments.

What is your final opinion on the upgrades? Who scales, what will be the tier? Anything new or exciting to add to the profiles?

Edit: Should clarify I lost the interest in debating, neutral on upgrading/downgrading it and I still like the verse as someone who likes to overanalyze things.
 
SinsofMan said:
What is your final opinion on the upgrades? Who scales, what will be the tier? Anything new or exciting to add to the profiles?
Click to expand...
Going by the tier the feat is currently agreed to be (as opposed to the potential Low 2-C)?

Obviously 3-A for KH. Xehanort should have "3-A with Kingdom Hearts", but I really don't think this should scale to everything he does automatically.

Those are the guarantees. If we reach a middle ground, I think anyone else would have a "possibly", at most. I don't think 3-A is guaranteed, but more of a possibility.

Those are just my opinions, though. All depends on what's agreed upon.
 
"What is your final opinion on the upgrades? Who scales, what will be the tier? Anything new or exciting to add to the profiles?"

Should be everybody's main question as well as the main debate.
 
@Azzy

That is probably fine.

I am fine with the compromise of "Possibly 3-A" for the verse and that includes scaling them to all the characters.

KH and Xehanort get a flat 3-A imo.
 
As I said before, I think the current rating followed by "possibly 3-A" is probably acceptable, as it accounts for the possibility of scaling somewhat to KH while acknowledging the uncertainty. It should preferably be its own key, but I don't know if the key should just read "KH 3" or something else, and who it should apply to beyond the obvious (the characters who actually fought Xehanort).

If people want to discuss the application, who this scales to, and all that jazz, I have significantly less of an opinion on that and will let others decide.
 
So Xehanort is 3-A, Sora, Donald and Goofy Possibly 3-A and the others ? KH should have "At least 3-A" if the Low 2-C thing isn't accepted.
 
ArkhamDC06 said:
So Xehanort is 3-A, Sora, Donald and Goofy Possibly 3-A and the others ? KH should have "At least 3-A" if the Low 2-C thing isn't accepted.
Click to expand...
That seems fine. Add a Likely Higher for Kingdom Hearts and I think it is fine.
 
It scales to Sora, Goofy, and Donald, that part should be pretty obvious since they're the ones who fight Xehanort, to begin with. Maybe you can throw Riku and King Mickey as well, but idk who people want this to scale to outside of the three already mentioned.
 
If we also throw Riku and Mickey, the problem is that they're able to fight Xemnas, Ansem and YX so that would mean the three of them would scale to.

"At least 3-A, likely higher" for Kh so.
 
So that would lead :

- "At least 3-A, likely higher" for KH

- 3-A for Xehanort

- Possibly 3-A for Sora, Don, Go, Xemnas, Ansem and YX (or maybe "At least High 4-C, possibly 3-A" ?)

And for the others, they stay at their current tier no ?
 
Yeah, i forgot them. So, "At least High 4-C, possibly 3-A" is fine.

And about the True X-Blade ? Since Xehnaort is 3-A, it would be 3-A to no ?
 
ArkhamDC06 said:
(or maybe "At least High 4-C, possibly 3-A" ?)
Click to expand...
This is likely the preferable rating, since it keeps the lower and higher end.

Like I said before, it should probably be a new key for the people it scales to (so people don't ask why absolutley everyone who has ever fought Sora doesn't scale to this), but I'm unsure of what it should be called.
 
Good. Maybe it should only be called "KH III" since we don't have real idea to name it or simply to show these particular characters are more powerful in the game than the others.
 
ArkhamDC06 said:
Good. Maybe it should only be called "KH III" since we don't have real idea to name it or simply to show these particular characters are more powerful in the game than the others.
Click to expand...
Maybe just "While being empowered by friendship"?
 
That would be good for Sora, Don, Goof but not for the Xehanort lol. And i don't think it would be good neither for Donald and Goofy. Also, a list of justifications can be good. like (Fought KH III xxx) for some of the characters.
 
Xehanort would be just:

"While wielding the true Kingdom Hearts"

Donald and Goofy also work with the friendship part as if it wasn´t for them, Sora wouldn´t have been able to keep up with the final blow.
 
ArkhamDC06 said:
Yep. And for the Xehanort, just adding "Fought KH III Sora, Riku and Mickey at the same time".
Click to expand...
That would go for the AP description, rather than the Key section.

And why Sora has Power Mimicry? What´s described in the profile sounds a lot more like Reactive Power Level
 
Hst master said:
Everyone who wears the Black Coats should have resistance to Darkness Manipulation due to the coats ability to protect them from the Darkness of space and the dark corridors. Also people who wear Keyblade Armor as well.

Also Sora, Data Sora, Xion, Roxas, Riku, Aqua, Ventus, and Terra should have resurrection via Auto-Life/Raise potentially the other org members, Goofy, Donald, and Mickey as well along with the Kupo Coin for Sora.

https://www.khwiki.com/Enemy_card

They'd gain Invisibility, Absorption, Speed Amp via Dash and Attack Haste Stat Buffs via Protect, Shell, Water Charge, and Berserk, Attack Nullification via dispel, more Power Mimicry, and more EE.

And then there's KH3's abilities

-More Absorption via Hero's Origin Partial Shotlock

-Duplication via Ever After

-Afterimage Creation via Classic Tone

-The Honey Sprout Keyblade transformation can inflict slow by covering enemies with Honey.

-He has several ways to passively refill his HP via HP walker, Wizard's Ruse, etc.
Click to expand...
^ @Bob
 
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