Kingdom Hearts 3 Editing (SPOILERS)

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The True X-Blade in multiple sources is stated to be the Counterpart to The True Kingdom Hearts.

Being something's counterpart does not make said things equal in power. If those are what are being used to say X-Blade = KH in power, that doesn't seem very reliable.

It seems more that the X-Blade allows one to summon and utilize the power of KH being the thing that makes them counterparts as opposed to the X-Blade being as strong as KH without KH, which I can't find a statement on.

 

[HST_Master]

Being something's counterpart does not make said things equal in power. If those are what are being used to say X-Blade = KH in power, that doesn't seem very reliable.

It seems more that the X-Blade allows one to summon and utilize the power of KH being the thing that makes them counterparts as opposed to the X-Blade being as strong as KH without KH, which I can't find a statement on.

Another person who had the X-Blade, Vanitas had shown no means of only being able to utilize KH with it. Along with Xemnas being capable of utilizing a weaker KH without a X-Blade, True or Arrifical.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Okay, but again, how does this imply the two are equal in power? Where is the statement for this? If we are only going off of "the X-Blade and KH are counterparts", that's not enough.

 

[HST_Master]

The Thing that makes them Counterparts is that they Coexist together, it's implied, not directly stated.

Furthermore, there's nothing indicating KH and X-Blade empowered Xehanort isn't 3-A. Throughout the entire fight he's been using their power and Sora, Donald, and Goofy were able to keep pace, even when he started using KH's power directly(The 2nd half of the 3rd phase of the Xehanort fight, he begins using Kingdom Hearts to fight, Creating Light Pillars, Stealing Sora's Light and so forth). And no, Xehanort did not use the full power of Kingdom Hearts, that doesn't somehow make anything less not 3-A.

The other guardians of light were trying to stop Kingdom Hearts the whole time and succeeded on one side. Using the same beam of Sora's that got no sold by Xehanort.

Kingdoms Hearts is indeed >>>>>>> The cast. No one's trying to argue it's somehow not, given that it took 8 of them to do what someone with the X-Blade alone could and it was only halfway. One Person alone, evident of Sora being one shot by KH and by his lonesome is incapable of stopping it.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

Not sure why 3-A and not Low 2-C is remotely contested when light and darkness are stated to be higher-dimensional forces and the X-Blade is stated to be made from their clash.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

"Furthermore, there's nothing indicating KH and X-Blade empowered Xehanort isn't 3-A."

I'm not trying to find anti-feats and "disprove" Xehanort using 3-A attacks, or something. I'm asking you to give proof that they are, when the reason KH is 3-A in the first place was never used against Sora and co.

"And no, Xehanort did not use the full power of Kingdom Hearts, that doesn't somehow make anything less not 3-A."

But why, though? Why scale everyone to 3-A based on a statement after the battle from something that hadn't happened which no one tanks or would seemingly tank and that Kingdom Hearts still apparently has the power to pull off after the fight... just because Xehanort took control of KH? I still don't understand why people feel like this is such a solid case and not something that warrants a "likely higher" or "likely far higher" at best, especially when Xehanort channeling some of this power could one-shot Sora, who needed Donald and Goofy's help to reflect this attack (which again, wasn't the same as the 3-A event KH was going to pull off, which is what people are trying to scale it to).

"The other guardians of light were trying to stop Kingdom Hearts the whole time and succeeded on one side."

You act like they were fighting KH or something and not just trying to hold it off and close it, which was to stop something like the end of the universe from happening, in the first place. This does not mean they are as powerful or more powerful than KH.

"Kingdoms Hearts is indeed >>>>>>> The cast. No one's trying to argue it's somehow not, given that it took 8 of them to do what someone with the X-Blade alone could and it was only halfway."

I don't think 8 people => KH either, though. Again, it's not like they were "fighting" KH. It's not exactly a normal character that was focusing attacks on them, or something. I also don't think closing KH means you're >>> KH, unless they're something I'm forgetting that blatantly says you need to be stronger than it to do so.

 

[HST_Master]

I don't think 8 people => KH either, though. Again, it's not like they were "fighting" KH. It's not exactly a normal character that was focusing attacks on them, or something. I also don't think closing KH means you're >>> KH, unless they're something I'm forgetting that blatantly says you need to be stronger than it to do so.

Never said they were stronger than True KH together at all. In fact I said that even with 8 Keyblade Weilders they could only close one side of Kingdom Hearts, Something The X-blade can do alone to both sides. I literally even said and you even quoted me saying KH is >>> The Cast.


You act like they were fighting KH or something and not just trying to hold it off and close it, which was to stop something like the end of the universe from happening, in the first place. This does not mean they are as powerful or more powerful than KH.

The very fact that they were holding it off together lets them scale. They don't need to "fight" KH.

But why, though? Why scale everyone to 3-A based on a statement after the battle from something that hadn't happened which no one tanks or would seemingly tank and that Kingdom Hearts still apparently has the power to pull off after the fight... just because Xehanort took control of KH? I still don't understand why people feel like this is such a solid case and not something that warrants a "likely higher" or "likely far higher" at best, especially when Xehanort channeling some of this power could one-shot Sora, who needed Donald and Goofy's help to reflect this attack (which again, wasn't the same as the 3-A event KH was going to pull off, which is what people are trying to scale it to).

KH is never treated as if it only has a certain amount of power to use, like at all. And like I said repeatedly, Xehanort was using KH before that beam and as I've said before KH is > The cast, I repeat, Kingdom Hearts is Very Much more powerful than the cast. I'm saying that the cast is Somewhat Comparable to it from Sora, Donald, and Goofy and The GoL. No one is scaling to KH's Full Power, they're scaling because of being able hold it back and eventually close a half of it without the X-Blade and fighting someone who's utilizing the power of both KH and the X-Blade.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

The X-Blade is used as a way to channel KH's power in specific ways. Technically, Xehanort isn't using all of KH's power but is only channeling it different ways. KH's power is just pure power without "abilities" or specific way to manifest it and Xehanort uses its power by "creating" abilities for himself with the X-Blade.

In any case, yeah, KH > every member of the cast and the entire cast since it is the origin of worlds. Xehanort should be noted as "3-A" with a higher thing while using the X-Blade.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Azathoth makes sense.

 

[Dark649]

What Azathoth said seems fine.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

Not sure why 3-A and not Low 2-C is remotely contested when light and darkness are stated to be higher-dimensional forces and the X-Blade is stated to be made from their clash.

 

[Dark649]

Jokingly statement: its because the higher dimensional statement just makes them 2-D, which is 3-A.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

can't tell if that's a joke or not

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

We would assume they would be a directable comparable potency as he already explained above. And if you're suggesting Xehanort is somehow using weaker attacks against Sora, this would require actual substantiation rather than "Oh well, Sora gets one-shotted by a 3-A attack, but him holding his own must be an outlier because of that!1!1!1!1!" And you do realize the fact he hurts Xehanort and blocks an initial attack and legitimately holds it back, to begin with, is enough to warrant scaling? Literally, you completely ignored the proposition where it was stated he would just be a lesser degree of 3-A than Xehanort is, you're literally being ignorant to propositions made in favor to come to a middle ground and trying to show double standards which literally staggering can count as remotely being comparable on this site. You realize said darkness he was bringing out there was what he had used to erase the world, to begin with, right? He explained that in the link and the fact you really don't seem to know the context really makes it seem like you don't even know what you're arguing against when it's made evident as the day you agree with Kingdom Hearts being 3-A in Attack Potency but for some reason don't know the method. Also, regarding this part. "Being something's counterpart does not make said things equal in power. If those are what are being used to say X-Blade = KH in power, that doesn't seem very reliable.

It seems more 'that' the X-Blade allows one to summon and utilize the power of KH being the thing that makes them counterparts as opposed to the X-Blade being as strong as KH without KH, which I can't find a statement on."

Being a counterpart would warrant this. The definition of counterpart is, "a person or thing holding a position or performing a function that corresponds to that of another person or thing in another place." When you think of counterpart in fiction, you generally get the idea of characters such as Infinity and Eternity, Dialga and Palkia, etc. who would canonically be called counterparts and should be comparable to each other by that. Hell, one of those pages alone I linked gives that as the sole AP justifications. This would literally just be you having more double standards against how this site handles such terms as "counterpart" if you are going to make an exclusive case with Kingdom Hearts.

And I'm sorry if some of this comes off as rude but the problem I have is that you don't seem to even understand Kingdom Hearts but are arguing against things regardless.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

I think that Azathoth makes sense.

Let me just say you need to actually stop and wait before saying "I agree with X mod". He legitimately knows next to nothing on the series by the looks of it and isn't even a knowledgeable member, I'd suggest actually getting staff who know the series to evaluate this thread rather than getting the input of a random one.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Oh this is going to violent. But i generally agree with Inverted Tempest about the different degrees of 3-A. Sora managed to hurt Xehanort even while he was possessing the X-Blade and channeling the power of KH.

 

[Dark649]

I don't think Xehanort regular attacks should scale to his purge the universe one.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

I don't think Xehanort regular attacks should scale to his purge the universe one.

It's literally via the exact same source of power, why would they not scale? If it's something regarding what they affect, area of effect being limited it just a common thing in fiction. If it has the direct potency to do a 3-A feat, which has been acknowledged above, we have no reason to absolutely assume the attacks should be of lower potency.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

I don't think Xehanort regular attacks should scale to his purge the universe one.

It's literally via the exact same source of power, why would they not scale? If it's something regarding what they affect, area of effect being limited it just a common thing in fiction. If it has the direct potency to do a 3-A feat, which has been acknowledged above, we have no reason to absolutely assume the attacks should be of lower potency.

Well we can assume that he dosen't use the same level of power to "only" absorb Sora's light that he would to erase the Universe. Apart from that however, i agree with you. And in any case, this is still a 3-A level feat.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

Yeah, I can get that, but he quite literally didn't care about the physical bodies, just that the hearts are what they needed. That's indicated with what Xemnas says (I think it was Xemnas but one of them says they don't need their souls and bodies, just their hearts to make it happen) and how Terranort straight up tries killing Ventus, he only needed their hearts for it.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Yeah, as i said it's only an idea. Besides, even in that case, Xehanort is still using KH's power. So it's still a 3-A feat in any case.

I don't remember exactly who said that but it can be Xemnas yeah. But i don't think Terra-Xehanort killed Ventus, it's more like he knocked him out.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

I think he put Ventus out of commission if not put him back to his state of needing time to get back up again with his heart. Either way, they really didn't care about physical bodies. That's literally why Xehanort initially killed everyone and it was fine to have their bodies destroyed as he only needed their hearts to make it happen.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

In any case, all of Xehanort's gambit was about their heart and hearts in general.

Now what would be KH's tier to you ? To me, it would be something like "At least 3-A, possibly 2-C" or "At least 3-A, likely higher".

 

[Dark649]

In order for the cosmology to be 2-C, the other realms needs to be universal sized and separated by space-time, so is there more than the realm of darkness is closed off from time to support it more?.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

RoD, Realm in-Between, Realm of Sleep (from what i can tell).

 

[Dark649]

Scans would be needed about them, i'm more perplexed than in all disagreement.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

About the RoD, it's explicitly said that it is the opposite of the Realm of Light, that time doesn't exist in it (to the point it is necessary to ceate it inside the realm) and it doesn't exist on the same plane than the RoL.

For the RoS, it keeps the worlds that have been released from the Darkness but not fully reconstructed in their timeline so time doesn't pass and stays in the state it was when the worlds were consumed.

I don't really know for the RIB however.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

But if someone could provide the scans, it'll be good.

Anyway, Sora and Xehanort are still both 3-A to different degrees.

 

[Dark649]

HadouCyberspace post seems to imply they are Low 2-C via the higher dimesional [4-D] statement, i'm perplexed about scaling the others because X-Blade Xehanort is seen as the biggest deal in the game when those comparable to Sora can harm him.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Xehanort holding the X-Blade doesnt make him invincible. He is still a man holding an extremely powerful weapon. It enhances his power but doesn't make him invulnerable. So it's still possible to hurt him. Of course, their is also the "don't care about writing, gameplay stuff".

 

[Dark649]

Before that he had an armour to protect him, which got broken by Sora.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Armour or not, he is still hurt in any case.

 

[Imaginym]

I like Kingdom Hearts deeply. I played KH1 & KH2 as a young teen, before learning of the other games. I later watched many recaps of KH, played Dream Drop Distance on 3DS, & found it all joyous. I really do like the series, in all its cheesyness, its heartwarmingness, seeing Sora & everyone happy & full of anguish.

But perhaps I shouldn't be saying what could be called an appeal to emotion/strawman. The point of saying that is to establish that I really do like Kingdom Hearts. But supporting a series doesn't mean I'll support a revision if it doesn't seem reasonable.

On one side, I can understand being opposed to Ant saying simply "I agree with Dark649" or the like, as he does that often, & I'm skeptical of that & FRA; I don't like claiming you support a side without explaining why you support it. Establish your reasons, your case. I feel this way about anyone in any debate. (Nothing personal, Antvasima.) This is mostly my emotions talking, but someone saying they agree with what someone said earlier without establishing why or how doesn't give me confidence that they've considered the debate.


BUT ANYWAY....

I have my doubts about Sora scaling to the full power of Kingdom Hearts. Yes, the X-Blade has been called the protector & counterpart to Kingdom Hearts. But the counterpart in what manner? How does it correspond? Is it a form of power from Hearts (It was formed by clashing hearts of Light & Darkness.) that manifests touchably to mankind, unlike the seemingly untouchable Kingdom Hearts?

Is it that it is the weaponized form of Kingdom Hearts? The united and organized form of it? And how does it protect? By being required to summon Kingdom Hearts? By judging the user?

The X-Blade being comparable to the entirety of KH is questionable, IMHO, & a lot of is left vague.

Then there's the issue of is Sora actually powerful enough.

He did stagger slightly, I recall... and then immediately got knocked back & was pretty much down. But I don't think holding it back for a moment is enough, not merely because he got knocked out. SURE, he did send it back with the help of Donald & Goofy....

But it's also dubious to say that Sora always has the power of his friends with him, as was said earlier in this thread. Following Sora being knocked down, he specifically has to call on the power of his bonds; If he has to call on it, it's not always active.

Also, it was mentioned that Sora would have to go & gain new power due to what he lost from nearly succumbing to darkness at the end of DDD. And I'm pretty sure Yen Sid knew part of how Sora would gain power would be forming bonds; Going out into worlds & making friends.

If Sora gets power from all the bonds he forges, then he certainly doesn't have the same level of Friendship Power for most of the times.


THEN we run into the issue of Sora overpowering KH's power DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

At the Keyblade Graveyard, he & all the other Guardians of Light were defeated by the Demon Tide, seemingly amped, & which has taken on Aqua, & later Aqua & Mickey, in the Realm of Darkness. Even in Twilight Town, where it shouldn't be amped by being in the Realm of Darkness, it still managed to fight against Sora and then come back for more.

It is somewhat unreasonable it defeated ALL of them, but amped with so many more Heartless than usual, it could definitely prove a match. And Sora DID die. His body was gone, he was only holding on to any kind of form because of Kairi -This was established repeatedly- & practically was dead.

Reality got overwritten because of Sora's abuse of the Power of Waking, & that's part of why Sora & company came back, but the fact remains they did lose once.

When Sora & company come back & fight the even stronger Demon Tide, they don't defeat it on their own; Sora gets help from Ephemera & all the Keyblades of the Keyblade Graveyard.

So it was stronger than before, & needed all the Keyblades of the Keyblade Graveyard, plus Sora, to be defeated.

But even if we assume a base of maximum Large Star Level, & then assume that it needed as many Keyblade Wielders as there are people on Earth.... Roughly, 7.4 billion... Heck, even the total number of people who have EVER lived on Earth AT ALL, now or before, about 100 Billion....

Well, to go from maximum High 4-C (Large Star Level, what most of the KH cast is rated at.) to maximum 4-B (AKA, baseline 4-A.), you need to get roughly 881.86 BILLION times stronger.

Getting to maximum 3-C needs 198.37 million times THAT power, & getting to maximum 3-B needs roughly 1.04x10^23 times THAT much power.


If Sora lost to the Demon Tide once, and needed help to finish it off from countless Keyblades (Including those of the Foretellers.), & it's still WELL IN EXCESS of BILLIONS of times weaker than 3-A? I'm skeptical.

And not only that. Consider what happens BEFORE Sora has to call on the power of his bonds of friendship: He shoots Xehanort with a beam from his Keyblade and Xehanort EFFORTLESSLY blocks it. Not even with the X-Blade. Just a barrier. Doesn't even make it to Xehanort's lightly raised hand.

& in fact, the background scenery is notable at this time. We see Xehanort raise the X-Blade, & Kingdom Hearts's light seems to fade, disappearing, becoming completely dark/purple, & Xehanort, glowing with yellow light like that of Kingdom Hearts, fires a purple beam, seemingly one of darkness.

Sora barely held up against the beam for any time at all. About 3 seconds, before being knocked back, & out. Do we scale someone to something that knocks them out, considering that's typically a lose condition?

So, that background scenery: We can still see Kingdom Hearts is still there, just dark. Given that, I doubt Xehanort used the full power of Kingdom Hearts.

Sora overpowers Xehanort with Trinity. With the power of his friends. I don't do that, & it looked cool.

But when Sora has lost against something weaker, needed help to beat it, & got his attack effortlessly blocked, & was then knocked out with little to no resistance?

And Kingdom Hearts didn't even wipe out the universe, which was supposed to be the whole basis of it being 3-A in the first place.

If it never did that, & it's fully in tact other than being mostly darkness (Logical, as Hearts in KH naturally contain both Light & Darkness, & not even in equal balance, typically.) even when Xehanort channels its power into a beam, then KH's full power definitely wasn't used.

He didn't tank KH's action that would supposedly be 3-A, nor did Xehanort, & in fact, he was beaten, WITHOUT EFFORT by what was likely a small portion of KH's power.

Considering that AND that a lot of the calcs for KH put it into Tier 4, this seems like an outlier to me. Mathematically, it's WAY beyond his current level, & the level of stuff Sora's had difficulty with (Demon Tide, Twilight Xemnas, etc.) & I don't think I'm willing to support this as a basis for an upgrade, cool as it could be.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

Alright, literally most of that is just useless rambling that doesn't even count any of the arguments being presently made to 3-A.

1.) I will repeat this again, it is defined as a counterpart and I gave an example of counterparts alone being used to justify AP on this wiki. Why would we not assume it from being comparable in power like at all? Literally, when Vanitas got the Incomplete Keyblade, he got amplified. And it has already been agreed upon they are equal, hence why Vanitas in his Ventus-Vanitas key has been considered equal to Twilight Xemnas, presumably approved by Admins who already agreed to a conceived notion. Unless you actually have something against it scaling directly, we should consider 3-A as well.

2.) No, Sora outright holds that attack back for several seconds before he dies to it. If you're acknowledging he staggers Xehanort, consistently holds back his attacks, etc., we have all the more reason to make Sora 3-A, just a lesser degree of it like explained before rather than it being an outlier.

3.) You realize Sora consistently says his friends are his strength, right? It's not something that is "active through Sora summoning it," he literally was just elaborating on that when they were trying to make Sora doubt himself and fall further into the Chasm of Dreams. Sora literally says he couldn't beat Xehanort originally because he lost his power as his friends had been eaten up by the Demon Tide. Hell, Matthew already explained earlier Sora practically embodies the friendship trope, it's his source of power.

4.) You already explained why that encounter was quite literally PIS. Sora later goes on to defeat the Demon Tide and Mickey and Aqua already beat Demon Tide previously, we shouldn't be using a PIS moment to justify a character's tiering at all.

5.) You keep substantiating Xehanort wasn't using KH's full power, his literal goal was to utilize it to reset the universe and make the lights not a problem, he has absolutely no reason to hold back whatsoever. This seems like a headcanon to be honest.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Xehanort with the Complete Keyblade and the True Kingdom Hearts is indeed 3-A, 100% legit.
Does anyone scale? Not really. Sora only defeated Xehanort through the Power of Friendship after explicitely dying to his attack. It was more like a temporary amp than anything. We have to understand, Kingdom Hearts has always been about the power of friendship, love, and hearts prevailing against adversity, and Sora is the literal embodiment of this trope. So while I can admit that when he, alongside Donald and Goofy, overcame Xehanort at the absolute height of his powers, which would indeed be a 3-A feat, it wouldn't apply to himself nor anyoe else in any other circumstance.

Like I said. Nobody scales under the proper circumstances.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

So is everyone fine with it being Low 2-C instead of just 3-A?

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Actually, we're debating about the 3-A thing so i think we'll need to wait until this is over to talk about a higher tier than 3-A.

In any case, the 3-A is supported by the simple fact that Sora is able to harm Xehanort even when he uses the X-Blade. If he was truly so higher than Sora and Co, they wouldn't be able to do it. Sure we can talk about gameplay but still, they can harm him. And to me, KH is still higher than Xehanort.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

But I sent pretty blatant evidence that would prove that it's Low 2-C, so I don't see why we need to keep debating the 3-A rating, you guys can keep debating about who scales to it, but there's no reason to really continue to assert the stuff is any lower than Low 2-C.

 

[Kaltias]

Just saying, KH's feat is baseline 3-A (Being shaped from higher dimensional forces doesn't make you tier 2), so anyone who scale below it can't be 3-A, only 3-B at most.

Also, counterparts aren't necessarily equal. A key and a locket are counterparts, that's related to their function, not how strong they are.

Using one of the examples above, Dialga and Palkia aren't equal "because they are counterparts", it's because they constantly battle each other. They are counterparts because they are Time and Space, and they complement each other for that reason.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

TheHadouCyberspaceWitch Correct me if i'm wrong but isn't Low 2-C about affecting a timeline ? From what we can tell, KH can destroy the Universe but it wouldn't affect time itself, only destroying the current Universe in termes of space. That's why the 3-A thing is brought. Of course, KH is likely "stronger" than this so maybe it is higher but it's a "At least 3-A, likely..." thing. And again, i don't remember anyone saying that KH was about to affect time itself.