King vs Sanji Rematch 2

[Eseseso]

It's pretty clear King has higher AP.

He was threatening someone who took hits from the Yonko far better than the dude Sanji fought.

Their peaks are by no means equal in AP.

 

[Kachon123]

No one is saying otherwise.

It's just that the gap is much smaller than what people are making it out to be.

 

[Eseseso]

No one is saying otherwise.

It's just that the gap is much smaller than what people are making it out to be.

Ok, that's fair.

I just assumed y'all were saying Sanji was equal to King's AP.

 

[Eminiteable]

Buso Hybrid > Hybrid > Buso Zoro > Base King w/ Sword ~ Base Zoro > Base King ~ Base Sanji


Can anyone drop a King scaling chain. This may not be good for King, as I'm not that knowledgable on his AP scaling, so if anyone has a better one, please send it.

Sure, the scaling chain while using pre-awakened Sanji as a point of comparison:

Omori Karyudon >\~ Imperial Deep Pride Stake > Self-Destruction > Buso + Imperial Flames King ~ End-Fight Buso Zoro > Buso King > Mid-Fight Buso Zoro ~ Imperial Flames King ~ Zoan/Hybrid King > King w/Sword ~ Early-Fight Buso Zoro > King w/Sword (One Arm) ~ Early-Fight Base Zoro > Base King ~ Base Sanji

The reason for me scaling King's top three attacks in that order:

1. Omori Karyudon is the highest as King believed it would finish off Zoro when his previous attacks were unable to do so.
2. Zoro states the Imperial Deep Pride Stake is impossible to block while he blocked the self-destruction with Buso.
3. Self-Destruction would have killed Zoro if he didn't defend with Buso.

 

[Kachon123]

Omori Karyudon >\~ Imperial Deep Pride Stake > Self-Destruction > Buso + Imperial Flames King ~ End-Fight Buso Zoro > Buso King > Mid-Fight Buso Zoro ~ Imperial Flames King ~ Zoan/Hybrid King > King w/Sword ~ Early-Fight Buso Zoro > King w/Sword (One Arm) ~ Early-Fight Base Zoro > Base King ~ Base Sanji

Thank you so much. Here's Sanji's:

Ifrit Jambe + Super Speed > Ifrit Jambe > Post-Awakening Diable Jambe > Queen Arm + Vinsmoke Abiilities > Exoskeleton > Queen w/ Sword > Queen w/ Sword (One Arm) > Hybrid Queen ~ Pre-Awakening Diable Jambe > Base Sanji ~ Base King

Although this chain makes it look like Sanji's peak AP > King's peak AP, it's not true, as King has several one-shot gaps in between these, so it kinda evens out with King having noticeably higher AP but it not being a mismatch.

 

[Kachon123]

Thank you so much. Here's Sanji's:

Ifrit Jambe + Super Speed > Ifrit Jambe > Post-Awakening Diable Jambe > Queen Arm + Vinsmoke Abiilities > Exoskeleton > Queen w/ Sword > Queen w/ Sword (One Arm) > Hybrid Queen ~ Pre-Awakening Diable Jambe > Base Sanji ~ Base King

Although this chain makes it look like Sanji's peak AP > King's peak AP, it's not true, as King has several one-shot gaps in between these, so it kinda evens out with King having noticeably higher AP but it not being a mismatch.

Although what makes me vote for Sanji even moreso, is that Sanji's peak AP scales above King with Buso + Imperial Flames.

All of his top 3 moves are pretty easily avoidable other than Imperial Deep Pride Stake, which would be harder to, but I can still see Sanji dodging it the way he did Queen's Black Coffee Beam in chapter 1028.

Sanji's peak AP (which he can use whenever) is higher than King's peak combat AP without special moves, so I think that overall Sanji may have the advantage here.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Queen needs to charge his lasers. King just pulls his head back and his beak flies out.

 

[Eminiteable]

King has several one-shot gaps in between these

Pretty much, ignoring the special attacks which I went into detail in the first post there are:

1. Early-Fight Zoro's Buso amp is a one-shot difference above his base.
2. Not a one-shot difference but Zoan King was shown to be significantly above Early-Fight Buso Zoro by sending him flying through Onigashima when he overpowered his Tora Gari.
3. Also not a one-shot difference, but Buso King was shown significantly higher than Mid-Fight Buso Zoro as well.

Now that I've familiarised myself with the AP, Speed and Heat scaling I think I'll vote sometime today on who I think wins.

 

[Kachon123]

Queen needs to charge his lasers. King just pulls his head back and his beak flies out.

Huh.

 

[Kachon123]

Now that I've familiarised myself with the AP, Speed and Heat scaling I think I'll vote sometime today on who I think wins.

Alright, ima be out later today so I'll update the vote count when I get back.

 

[Kachon123]

1. Early-Fight Zoro's Buso amp is a one-shot difference above his base.
2. Not a one-shot difference but Zoan King was shown to be significantly above Early-Fight Buso Zoro by sending him flying through Onigashima when he overpowered his Tora Gari.
3. Also not a one-shot difference, but Buso King was shown significantly higher than Mid-Fight Buso Zoro as well.

Some things for Sanji's

1. Queen's W/ Sword thought it would kill Sanji
2. His Exo durability completely outclassed and destroyed Queen w/ Sword
3. Post-Awakening Diable Jambe one-shot and destroyed Queen's Arm + Winch
4. Adding Super Speed seems to be a large armp, as the faster he goes the heavier and stronger his kicks would be

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Huh.

Ofc that doesn't take away from Sanji's feats but I'm just sayin.

Some things for Sanji's

1. Queen's W/ Sword thought it would kill Sanji
2. His Exo durability completely outclassed and destroyed Queen w/ Sword
3. Post-Awakening Diable Jambe one-shot and destroyed Queen's Arm + Winch
4. Adding Super Speed seems to be a large armp, as the faster he goes the heavier and stronger his kicks would be

Tbf Queen slammed Sanji and made him bleed out the mouth with Winch.

 

[Kachon123]

Ofc that doesn't take away from Sanji's feats but I'm just sayin.

No, there's absolutely nothing to say. Imperial Deep Pride Stake has just as much, if not longer of a charge-up than Queen's lasers do.

Tbf Queen slammed Sanji and made him bleed out the mouth with Winch.

I know?

 

[DaMonkeMan]

No, there's absolutely nothing to say. Imperial Deep Pride Stake has just as much, if not longer of a charge-up than Queen's lasers do.

I know?

I mean.. if Marco's shockwave and Sanji's kick could hit him while he was charging his laser..

 

[Kachon123]

I mean.. if Marco's shockwave and Sanji's kick could hit him while he was charging his laser..

Then what?

 

[Eminiteable]

1. Queen's W/ Sword thought it would kill Sanji
2. His Exo durability completely outclassed and destroyed Queen w/ Sword

When it comes to Queen with his sword I'm not sure that justification is due to AP, he was using a sword which allows his AP to be more "focused" on an area allowing more lethal wounds & he was aiming for the neck which is a vulnerable spot in the first place:

The issue of "cutting" and "piercing" attacks comes up as a result of the difference in surface area between the character being attacked and object being used in attacking them. Even in real-life, a person can do a lot more damage to somebody else with a sword than they can with their bare hands.

Most characters have specific spots on their body that are much weaker than others, like eyeballs, genitals, kidneys, livers, and more. Other characters have specific places on their body that are noticeably weaker than their other parts. Harming those body parts aren't usually the best for scaling to durability, but a way around this is scaling the fighter above another person who failed to harm that specific area of vulnerability.

When Sanji gained the Exo-Skelton it gave him a resistance to cutting attacks that made the strike from the sword act like a blunt force hit which is why there was only a dent on his cheek.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Wdym?
I'm just saying it's a bit of a long charge up for a laser.
But that's off topic.
I think King wins but Sanji seems to have better flames and is more calm and tactical. He also seems to have better Observation but worse Armament, so there's that.
AP is in King's favor but it's not a stomp exactly. Durability is in his favor obviously.
Speed... I'll pay it safe and say it's equal.
King mid diff Ig.

 

[Eminiteable]

When it comes to Queen's sword in general their durability is below the force Queen exerts by swinging it.

The sword itself couldn't penetrate the exo-skeleton so it couldn't push through and cut Sanji and it also couldn't withstand Queen's swing which is why it broke and Queen still managed to fully swing his sword.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[TauanVictor]

King FRA

 

[DaMonkeMan]

iirc that's 3 or 4
Me, Eseseso, Tauan and uh.. I forgot the other voters.

 

[Eseseso]

So since Emin hasn't voted yet, that makes it 6-4.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

So since Emin hasn't voted yet, that makes it 6-4.

6 King or Sanji votes?

 

[Eseseso]

6 King or Sanji votes?

6 Sanji, 4 King.

 

[Eseseso]

Pretty much, ignoring the special attacks which I went into detail in the first post there are:

1. Early-Fight Zoro's Buso amp is a one-shot difference above his base.

Is it really a one-shot difference?

1. Not a one-shot difference but Zoan King was shown to be significantly above Early-Fight Buso Zoro by sending him flying through Onigashima when he overpowered his Tora Gari.

True.

1. Also not a one-shot difference, but Buso King was shown significantly higher than Mid-Fight Buso Zoro as well.

True.

Ifrit Jambe + Super Speed > Ifrit Jambe > Post-Awakening Diable Jambe > Queen Arm + Vinsmoke Abiilities > Exoskeleton > Queen w/ Sword > Queen w/ Sword (One Arm) > Hybrid Queen ~ Pre-Awakening Diable Jambe > Base Sanji ~ Base King

This seems about right, although you could also say that IJ + Super Speed >> Queen's durability >= Post-Awakening DJ Sanji.

Although this chain makes it look like Sanji's peak AP > King's peak AP, it's not true, as King has several one-shot gaps in between these,

Eh, the only real one-shot gap I see is how Omori Karyudon and the explosions can both one-shot Zoro.

so it kinda evens out with King having noticeably higher AP but it not being a mismatch.

That's fair

 

[Eminiteable]

Is it really a one-shot difference?

Pretty much:

1. One-Shot Killer
2. One-Shot Pica
3. Let him survive an attack with minimal damage when otherwise he would have died.

 

[Eseseso]

Pretty much:

1. One-Shot Killer

I mean it was a somewhat weakened Killer, but that same Killer did match Base Zoro before getting one-shot so that's fair.

1. One-Shot Pica
2. Let him survive an attack with minimal damage when otherwise he would have died.

That's valid.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Let him survive an attack with minimal damage when otherwise he would have died.

Who are you talking about here

 

[Eminiteable]

I mean it was a somewhat weakened Killer, but that same Killer did match Base Zoro before getting one-shot so that's fair.

Only his AP.

Who are you talking about here

Zoro taking King's self destruction attack.

 

[DivineAura44]

Sanji FRA (for real this time). Find his speed and fire as far more of an advantage than King's AP.

 

[Kachon123]

Grace

 

[Eseseso]

Now that I've familiarised myself with the AP, Speed and Heat scaling I think I'll vote sometime today on who I think wins.

Who do you think wins?

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Sanji FRA (for real this time).

Wait did you vote before?

 

[Kachon123]

Wait did you vote before?

Sanji but he didn't give a reason.

 

[DivineAura44]

Wait did you vote before?

Yes but I didn't actually read most of the thread. I was trolling.

 

[Eseseso]

Someone please remind me what Sanji's win-cons are?

 

[DaMonkeMan]

All I know is King has superior AP, Durability, flight, and Armament.
Sanji has better flames, Observation, and uh..

 

[Eseseso]

Yeah I still don't see how Sanji's getting past that durability.

 

[DivineAura44]

All I know is King has superior AP, Durability, flight, and Armament.
Sanji has better flames, Observation, and uh..

Those aren't wincons. Those are advantages.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Yeah I still don't see how Sanji's getting past that durability.

Me neither.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Those aren't wincons. Those are advantages.

Yes.. Advantages which in a fight can be used as wincons.