Kimetsu no Yaiba profiles overhaul

[Razor]

Why would it be a burden on Gyomei if it wasn't going to be hard to some degree? If it was something that Gyomei could casually do, then Muichiro refusing help from him would be as ridiculous as refusing a helping hand after you fell down while the area around is overrun by zombies. He did end up dying because of his subsequent encounter with Kokushibo after all even if he couldn't have known about that particular part.

While Muzan doesn't know the extent to which Mitsuri and Obanai fodderize Lower Moons he was still not surprised by the idea of Nakime killing two such individuals which would further support the idea of her being much stronger than a Lower Moon and not at all inadequate as an Upper Moon. If you agree with Nakime fodderizing Lower Moons, then I have nothing else to add to that particular part.

Getting hit repeatedly by her pillars is the only accumulative way of dealing damage that I suggested and still implies that a single attack from her deals enough damage for the accumulation of a significant amount of it in a reasonable timeframe to be possible which would mean that she couldn't be too much below the Pillars even if she is overall weaker. My other suggested attacks are her directing her pillar and her target towards the ceiling which would be a single attack and using two pillars simultaneously to crush someone which would also count as a single attack due to the simultaneity. Her attack on Muichiro is by no means indicated to be the strongest she can muster up and still got Muichiro killed via Kokushibo. I don't think that everyone not being at their peak performance anymore would make their presence in a fight against Muzan not reassuring since you would at least not be alone and have capable allies with you. Stronger demons like the Upper Moons seem to be generally pretty good with their Blood Demon Arts based on what we've seen in the series which is presumably due to them having had them for a long time already, that would be something that Obanai would presumably be aware of or he would have at the very least encountered demons like that himself as an experienced Pillar. Regardless of anything else Nakime's Blood Demon Art being outright weaker in terms of strength than the Blood Demon Arts of Lower Moons doesn't make sense. That just means that Mitsuri had the confidence of being able to do that to someone stronger than the ones she already did that against, she didn't necessarily know the exact degree of superiority after all. The Upper Moons haven't changed since centuries, so the only Upper Moon 3 whose strength Obanai could have reasonably known about with some certainty is Akaza. Him thinking highly of Rengoku means that the shock is mainly about having been just told that someone he respected has died and no matter how strong an Upper Moon 3 is known to be you would still be shocked about a respected colleague suddenly being dead because of that since that wouldn't be a really common occurence that you would outright expect to happen to that particular person. You were the one that suggested that Mitsuri had it easy and that she wouldn't have experience fighting against difficult opponents. Have you forgotten what that part of the debate was about?

And how would have muichiro known if it was gonna be easy for gyomei? He likely just didn't think it'll do anything to him thats why he told gyomei to go. Not to mention the speed of the pillar would just be inconsistent or an outlier if gyomei had trouble with them because he is so far above obanai and mitsuri who could dodge nakime's attacks easily.


I do agree actually, I never denied she doesn't fodderize lower moons.

Wdym? You're saying its a single attack while also saying its accumulative damage, AP is something you can do with a single hit and getting hit repeatedly with pillars and also smashing it with walls is like a combo for her not something she can do with just hitting someone with one attack which would be a single attack. And why does this mean she's not below the pillars? Like I said just cause somebody dodge an attack doesn't mean they thought said attack was going to injure them that logic doesn't make sense since they could've just not wanted to get hit. that is not a single attack or else a barrage or a combo would also be a single attack but this doesn't even matter, even if we say her smashing someone with two pillars and then also smashing them against the wall is one attack we still don't know how strong that one attack is. I didn't say that it was the strongest she can get where did you get that from? all I said was that its the strongest we've seen since this time she actually managed to crush someone with a wall and why is kokushibo killing muichiro relevant here? It absolutely does make them less reassuring since they wouldn't be performing at peak performance and therefore isn't as capable as they would be when uninjured. Wdym at the very least? Saying obanai encountered an upper moon is less likely than him not encountering one, If he encountered one it'll be two things, He would die or the upper moon would die (It could also end up as the upper moon retreating but this is less likely than the other two) and neither of those is possible cause obanai is alive and an upper moon hadn't been killed since hundreds of years. Why doesn't it? Her BDA isn't an offensive type nor does she use it offensively. No that doesn't make any sense, I could think of my father highly in strength but I wouldn't be shocked a bit if he lost to a professional wrestler, If he knew how strong akaza was no matter how much respect he had for rengoku he would've still been shocked, I don't get how him respecting rengoku makes his defeat any more believable. Yes I was, why is that relevant? I just said I didn't understand cause you stated two contradictory things, I never said anything contradicting her having an easy time.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Honestly this would never end and peoples would get discouraged by the wall of text, just saying

 

[Razor]

me and nehz are actually in an agreement that nakime scales above lower moons and that she shouldn't be scaled to the pillars, I think we can end the debate here.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Alright, thats good, but how about Spider Demon Mother, Swamp Demon and (possibly) Mitsuri? Other than that we can contacting the staffs for evaluation

 

[Nehz_XZX]

And how would have muichiro known if it was gonna be easy for gyomei? He likely just didn't think it'll do anything to him thats why he told gyomei to go. Not to mention the speed of the pillar would just be inconsistent or an outlier if gyomei had trouble with them because he is so far above obanai and mitsuri who could dodge nakime's attacks easily.


I do agree actually, I never denied she doesn't fodderize lower moons.

Wdym? You're saying its a single attack while also saying its accumulative damage, AP is something you can do with a single hit and getting hit repeatedly with pillars and also smashing it with walls is like a combo for her not something she can do with just hitting someone with one attack which would be a single attack. And why does this mean she's not below the pillars? Like I said just cause somebody dodge an attack doesn't mean they thought said attack was going to injure them that logic doesn't make sense since they could've just not wanted to get hit. that is not a single attack or else a barrage or a combo would also be a single attack but this doesn't even matter, even if we say her smashing someone with two pillars and then also smashing them against the wall is one attack we still don't know how strong that one attack is. I didn't say that it was the strongest she can get where did you get that from? all I said was that its the strongest we've seen since this time she actually managed to crush someone with a wall and why is kokushibo killing muichiro relevant here? It absolutely does make them less reassuring since they wouldn't be performing at peak performance and therefore isn't as capable as they would be when uninjured. Wdym at the very least? Saying obanai encountered an upper moon is less likely than him not encountering one, If he encountered one it'll be two things, He would die or the upper moon would die (It could also end up as the upper moon retreating but this is less likely than the other two) and neither of those is possible cause obanai is alive and an upper moon hadn't been killed since hundreds of years. Why doesn't it? Her BDA isn't an offensive type nor does she use it offensively. No that doesn't make any sense, I could think of my father highly in strength but I wouldn't be shocked a bit if he lost to a professional wrestler, If he knew how strong akaza was no matter how much respect he had for rengoku he would've still been shocked, I don't get how him respecting rengoku makes his defeat any more believable. Yes I was, why is that relevant? I just said I didn't understand cause you stated two contradictory things, I never said anything contradicting her having an easy time.

Mitsuri and Obanai managing to dodge pillars from Nakime is a bit different since they weren't caught off guard unlike Muichiro. Gyomei probably could have dodged it just fine if the pillar went for him but it instead went for Muichiro who had already moved a bit once Gyomei looked back and then went even further when he fully turned around went to the direction of the attack. I really don't think that Muichiro thought something like that it won't do anything against him. His facial expressions as he is getting pushed, on collision course with the wall and crashing through it aren't the expressions of someone who is calm and unworried though I guess that he worried about potential damage and follow up attacks instead of dying.

I'm not sure if you really understood me here. Yes, her hitting people with her pillars multiple times would be accumulative damage but hitting people multiple times is a sequence of multiple single hits and what I'm saying is that each one of those individual hits that comprise the series of hits would be an individual attack. Since the damage from her attacks is capable of accumulating a relevant amount of damage her single attacks would therefore be capable of dealing fraction of the amount of damage that would be considered relevant which would mean that she downscales due to being able to deal any damage at all. She wouldn't be able to deal any damage at all if her attacks were completely harmless and I never said that a sequence of attacks from her being enough to deal significant damage would make her equal to the pillar, I said that she couldn't be too much below the Pillars. Well, technically her using a pillar to send someone to a wall or ceiling consists out of a single move, her just moving the pillar into the direction she wants. Her using two pillars to crush someone wouldn't be any less a single move than someone using two hands to catch a fly since moving the Infinity Fortress is described as being like moving her own body for her and she wouldn't need to move each pillar separately. If her attack against Muichiro isn't the strongest she can output, then you can't say that this attack not dealing a relevant amount of damage means that it would be impossible for to do so with any of her attacks.

I said that they were still going to be reassuring not that they wouldn't be less reassuring. You need to pay more attention to the actual exact wording. I didn't say that Obanai met an Upper Moon or that he likely met one. I said that the probability of him having met strong demons who were excellent with their Blood Demon Arts is high given that this is the case with vast majority of demons with Blood Demon Arts we get to see in the series, so while knowing that some of his fellow Pillars got killed by Upper Moons wouldn't give Obanai an exact idea of their Blood Demon Arts he'd still have certain expectations based on his experience. Nakime's Blood Demon Art might not be of the offensive kind but she does actually use it offensively if her sending pillars after Mitsuri, Obanai and Muichiro are any indications and she doesn't use anything else for combat. On top of that we already established that Nakime fodderizes Lower Moons, so why would her main way of combat now be weaker than Lower Moons? Are we going to scale her physical AP way above them and then say that her Blood Demon Art is for some reason significantly weaker than them?

Of course you wouldn't be shocked but you would still probably get surprised that he somehow got into a fight with a professional wrestler in the first place. Same would be the case with Rengoku, nobody thought that Upper Moon 3 of all people would get involved and end up killling Rengoku, so of course the default reaction for most people would be a certain degree of shock.

What I'm arguing against is that they had it "easy" to get where they are now. They faced harsh training and went through difficult missions that forced them to improve themselves with experience and further training. I don't think that any of the Pillars would take that away from their Tsugukos by making it so that they never have to face a difficult enemy in their missions. Because of all this I'm of the belief that Mitsuri did in fact face enemies that gave her a hard time and therefore has experience in regard to difficult fights.

I said that I was arguing against the idea that they had it easy. You seriously need some more reading comprehension here.

I'm also not going to stop arguing while there are clearly things in my arguments that you either fail to understand or have just completely misunderstood.

 

[Razor]

Dude we already agreed on things this is just unnecessary, I said I'm gonna stop arguing and I will. The reading comprehension thing was also seriously uncalled for but ok. And why does it matter if they are things in you're arguments that I didn't get which isn't the case? We already agreed on something, drop it.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Dude we already agreed on things this is just unnecessary, I said I'm gonna stop arguing and I will. The reading comprehension thing was also seriously uncalled for but ok. And why does it matter if they are things in you're arguments that I didn't get which isn't the case? We already agreed on something, drop it.

Given what you wrote there absolutely are things you didn't understand. What I'm currently arguing against is Nakime being so weak that Pillars can casually tank her attacks without worrying and that Mitsuri had an easy time becoming a Pillar. At this point I'm beginning to question what you even understand as "easy".

 

[Razor]

Given what you wrote there absolutely are things you didn't understand. What I'm currently arguing against is Nakime being so weak that Pillars can casually tank her attacks without worrying and that Mitsuri had an easy time becoming a Pillar. At this point I'm beginning to question what you even understand as "easy".

I didn't understand what I wrote? What do you mean? Again that doesn't make sense, Obanai and mitsuri dodging doesn't mean they can't tank it and they literally did, Mitsuri tanked a full on single attack from nakime with no injuries and muichiro tanked an attack that also managed to crush him through a wall. I never outright said she'd have it easy, All I was saying was that she'd have it easier than what the average hashira will have to do. And the points you brought up wasn't relevant either, The point that she struggled against fighting a lower moon was a point you made that she was put under pressure before, And you brought up stuff like rengoku's training being hard which is not at all relevant her being under pressure, Its not like kyojuro was going to slit her throat for not being able to complete her training or anything.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I didn't understand what I wrote? What do you mean? Again that doesn't make sense, Obanai and mitsuri dodging doesn't mean they can't tank it and they literally did, Mitsuri tanked a full on single attack from nakime with no injuries and muichiro tanked an attack that also managed to crush him through a wall. I never outright said she'd have it easy, All I was saying was that she'd have it easier than what the average hashira will have to do. And the points you brought up wasn't relevant either, The point that she struggled against fighting a lower moon was a point you made that she was put under pressure before, And you brought up stuff like rengoku's training being hard which is not at all relevant her being under pressure, Its not like kyojuro was going to slit her throat for not being able to complete her training or anything.

I meant that you didn't understand parts of my arguments based on what you wrote. You have to understand the overall context here. Obanai didn't take a hit that we saw happening and I've already elaborated earlier that Mitsuri mitigated the overall damage she could have taken. The wall Muichiro crashed through wasn't really thick and I really suspect that the actual purpose of the attack was to get him to Kokushibo who was more than enough to kill him.

Mitsuri having some things made easier on the way to becoming a Pillar is something that I can accept but I don't think that her career as a demon slayer can in any way be called easy and that she has it easier as a Pillar compared to her colleagues. Her trouble fighting against Hairo's constructs and her having undergone harsh training are points that I used to illustrate my view that she had to work hard to get where she is and that her circumstances didn't make things easy for her like you suggested.

 

[Razor]

I meant that you didn't understand parts of my arguments based on what you wrote. You have to understand the overall context here. Obanai didn't take a hit that we saw happening and I've already elaborated earlier that Mitsuri mitigated the overall damage she could have taken. The wall Muichiro crashed through wasn't really thick and I really suspect that the actual purpose of the attack was to get him to Kokushibo who was more than enough to kill him.

Mitsuri having some things made easier on the way to becoming a Pillar is something that I can accept but I don't think that her career as a demon slayer can in any way be called easy and that she has it easier as a Pillar compared to her colleagues. Her trouble fighting against fighting Hairo's constructs and her having undergone harsh training are points that I used to illustrate my view that she had to work hard to get where she is and that her circumstances didn't make things easy for her like you suggested.

Mitsuri mitigated the damage she took from preventing another hit from landing but she didn't mitigate the pillar hitting her at all, The pillar is her bare attack just like someone punching making it her bare AP and mitsuri no selled it. It doesn't make any sense for nakime to weaken her attack, It doesn't mean what her intention was there would've been no reason for her to hold back that attack even if it was only to get him to kokushibo. And what do you mean the wall that muichiro crashed through wasn't thick? We literally didn't see the thickness of the wall, we saw the front of it and then the next panel is him shattering through it.

I never said it was easy, I simply laid out points on why mitsuri's way to becoming a pillar wasn't as rough as the others, an example is rengoku who had like what 3 volumes of a book to study and thats it, He had to make a pillar out of himself out of a book with three volumes and basic training from her father, Mitsuri on the other hand was given an impressive physique since birth, Had a hashira as a teacher, and had seen a lower moon beforehand. And she most likely had the easiest time compared to the other pillars as well, I'm not claiming she had it easy but compared to the rest. They either had to go through some trauma or had a disadvantage at the start, Obanai, Sanemi, Shinobu, giyu, tengen and gyomei all had to deal with serious trauma, Obanai was locked up when he was a child and was informed he was born just to get eaten, Sanemi had to kill her own mother and had to cope with the loss of his demon slayer friend, Shinobu lost her sister kanae, Giyu had to cope with the loss of sabito and the fact that he thought sabito would've been a better pillar if he survived, Tengen lost a shitton of siblings at a young age and gyomei had everyone he loved killed by a demon and then got blamed for their deaths even though he valiantly tried to protect them. Rengoku like I said had to make a pillar out of him from 3 volumes and basic training plus deal with the loss of her mother too, Muichiro had to cope with the loss of his brother as well, Reason I'm bringing all the terrible shit that happen to these guys is that their trauma could've affected their performance or made them mentally unstable at times. Mitsuri's backstory involved her not being able to get a partner and called a freak due to her hair which while is terrible not close to what the others had to endure, Just a reminder though, I'm not saying her journey to becoming hashira was easy but it was easier than normal. I certainly don't think she had it easy so we agree on that. She also didn't really struggle against hairo's construct, She was just scared, After seeing the mother with her child screaming she kinda no diffed them and had no injuries afterwards

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Mitsuri mitigated the damage she took from preventing another hit from landing but she didn't mitigate the pillar hitting her at all, The pillar is her bare attack just like someone punching making it her bare AP and mitsuri no selled it. It doesn't make any sense for nakime to weaken her attack, It doesn't mean what her intention was there would've been no reason for her to hold back that attack even if it was only to get him to kokushibo. And what do you mean the wall that muichiro crashed through wasn't thick? We literally didn't see the thickness of the wall, we saw the front of it and then the next panel is him shattering through it.

I never said it was easy, I simply laid out points on why mitsuri's way to becoming a pillar wasn't as rough as the others, an example is rengoku who had like what 3 volumes of a book to study and thats it, He had to make a pillar out of himself out of a book with three volumes and basic training from her father, Mitsuri on the other hand was given an impressive physique since birth, Had a hashira as a teacher, and had seen a lower moon beforehand. And she most likely had the easiest time compared to the other pillars as well, I'm not claiming she had it easy but compared to the rest. They either had to go through some trauma or had a disadvantage at the start, Obanai, Sanemi, Shinobu, giyu, tengen and gyomei all had to deal with serious trauma, Obanai was locked up when he was a child and was informed he was born just to get eaten, Sanemi had to kill her own mother and had to cope with the loss of his demon slayer friend, Shinobu lost her sister kanae, Giyu had to cope with the loss of sabito and the fact that he thought sabito would've been a better pillar if he survived, Tengen lost a shitton of siblings at a young age and gyomei had everyone he loved killed by a demon and then got blamed for their deaths even though he valiantly tried to protect them. Rengoku like I said had to make a pillar out of him from 3 volumes and basic training plus deal with the loss of her mother too, Muichiro had to cope with the loss of his brother as well, Reason I'm bringing all the terrible shit that happen to these guys is that their trauma could've affected their performance or made them mentally unstable at times. Mitsuri's backstory involved her not being able to get a partner and called a freak due to her hair which while is terrible not close to what the others had to endure, Just a reminder though, I'm not saying her journey to becoming hashira was easy but it was easier than normal. I certainly don't think she had it easy so we agree on that. She also didn't really struggle against hairo's construct, She was just scared, After seeing the mother with her child screaming she kinda no diffed them and had no injuries afterwards

An attack is going to hurt you a whole lot more if you can't keep your bearing together and end up crashing into something, the same would apply here. A punch would work the same way. Generally, humans can take punches from those comparable to them just fine and only end up in trouble either after getting hit by a multitude of these punches or when they fall or bump into something as a consequence. I can agree that Nakime didn't have a reason to hold back but it still doesn't mean that it is the absolute limit of what she can do which you admitted earlier yourself and it still managed to get Muichiro killed in the end via Kokushibo. That was my impression of the panels of the relevant page, Muichiro seemed to get to the other side of the wall quickly and the pieces that fell down together with him didn't seem to indicate a massively thick wall to me. You didn't disagree with that interpretation when I expressed that in earlier comments.

These traumas were also kind of motivations to work hard for them, so while these things were terrible they weren't shown to let that hold them back though I do agree that this could have been the case for the average person. Yeah, I guess we can agree that it wasn't really easy for her to become a Pillar. Actually, Mitsuri had trouble cutting through them, so she was certainly struggling and one of these constructs bit her left thigh and made her bleed. She also didn't stick her landing after she dealt with the constructs. Her cutting through them while defending the mother with her child was a combination of a knee-jerk reaction which surprised even herself and her adapting the way she used her sword subsequently. This is before she fully invented and mastered her Breath of Love, so she certainly had to learn and improve significantly after that point in time.

 

[Razor]

An attack is going to hurt you a whole lot more if you can't keep your bearing together and end up crashing into something, the same would apply here. A punch would work the same way. Generally, humans can take punches from those comparable to them just fine and only end up in trouble either after getting hit by a multitude of these punches or when they fall or bump into something as a consequence. I can agree that Nakime didn't have a reason to hold back but it still doesn't mean that it is the absolute limit of what she can do which you admitted earlier yourself and it still managed to get Muichiro killed in the end via Kokushibo. That was my impression of the panels of the relevant page, Muichiro seemed to get to the other side of the wall quickly and the pieces that fell down together with him didn't seem to indicate a massively thick wall to me. You didn't disagree with that interpretation when I expressed that in earlier comments.

These traumas were also kind of motivations to work hard for them, so while these things were terrible they weren't shown to let that hold them back though I do agree that this could have been the case for the average person. Yeah, I guess we can agree that it wasn't really easy for her to become a Pillar. Actually, Mitsuri had trouble cutting through them, so she was certainly struggling and one of these constructs bit her left thigh and made her bleed. She also didn't stick her landing after she dealt with the constructs. Her cutting through them while defending the mother with her child was a combination of a knee-jerk reaction which surprised even herself and her adapting the way she used her sword subsequently. This is before she fully invented and mastered her Breath of Love, so she certainly had to learn and improve significantly after that point in time.

Them crashing into something isn't due to the attack dealing damage to them, Its due to the pillar forcing you to, You have to overpower it which mitsuri did, she sliced it effortlessly. Yeah, A human can take punches from someone comparable to them and at the same time falter if they keep on getting punched, Its the same case here, A pillar only hitting someone wouldn't kill a hashira cause we've seen mitsur tank it effortlessly and a pillar hitting someone and also crashing them to a wall or another pillar will deal more damage, even then we wouldn't know how much damage that would do and we can't just assume that because they crashed into one another doesn't mean it can damage someone who no selled an attack that didn't crash. I never said it was the absolute limit though? And again why is kokushibo being brought up here. You only brought up the wall not being thick like three messages ago and I disputed it so what do you mean? Him crashing quickly just meant that the pillar was moving fast which you even argued earlier because gyomei didn't instantly react to it.

Not really, Giyu had a few chapter dedicated on how he couldn't cope with sabito and that he should've been a pillar instead of him and tanjiro had to talk to him about it, And for the others we didn't really see them getting affected by their past traumas but it could've been them already moving past those said traumas but it could've still affected them earlier before we got to see them on screen. Her not being able to cut them and one of them biting through her thighs was before the scene I talked about where mitsuri had a morale boost, She didn't lack the capability to damage these things she just lacked mental strength to actually use his physical strength, after she's gotten past her fear she dealt with the constructs like nothing. Her being surprised was most likely just her doubting herself since she isn't the most strong willed person, at least not at this point where she was a mizunoto. I'd say that actually backs up my point that she didn't have THAT hard of a time against lower moons since even before she fully mastered her breathing she was already dealing with Lower moon constructs while being a mizunoto.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Them crashing into something isn't due to the attack dealing damage to them, Its due to the pillar forcing you to, You have to overpower it which mitsuri did, she sliced it effortlessly. Yeah, A human can take punches from someone comparable to them and at the same time falter if they keep on getting punched, Its the same case here, A pillar only hitting someone wouldn't kill a hashira cause we've seen mitsur tank it effortlessly and a pillar hitting someone and also crashing them to a wall or another pillar will deal more damage, even then we wouldn't know how much damage that would do and we can't just assume that because they crashed into one another doesn't mean it can damage someone who no selled an attack that didn't crash. I never said it was the absolute limit though? And again why is kokushibo being brought up here. You only brought up the wall not being thick like three messages ago and I disputed it so what do you mean? Him crashing quickly just meant that the pillar was moving fast which you even argued earlier because gyomei didn't instantly react to it.

Not really, Giyu had a few chapter dedicated on how he couldn't cope with sabito and that he should've been a pillar instead of him and tanjiro had to talk to him about it, And for the others we didn't really see them getting affected by their past traumas but it could've been them already moving past those said traumas but it could've still affected them earlier before we got to see them on screen. Her not being able to cut them and one of them biting through her thighs was before the scene I talked about where mitsuri had a morale boost, She didn't lack the capability to damage these things she just lacked mental strength to actually use his physical strength, after she's gotten past her fear she dealt with the constructs like nothing. Her being surprised was most likely just her doubting herself since she isn't the most strong willed person, at least not at this point where she was a mizunoto. I'd say that actually backs up my point that she didn't have THAT hard of a time against lower moons since even before she fully mastered her breathing she was already dealing with Lower moon constructs while being a mizunoto.

I think calling Mitsuri's feat effortless here is stretching it a bit since she had to use her sword while lying on the pillar and only got away shortly before she would have hit the ceiling. We do know that Nakime could deal more damage than she could have done in the case of Muichiro and that the damage she could deal from completely unmitigated attacks would be higher than what was the case with Mitsuri. You are kinda treating it like a limit though. The attacks we have seen connect have either been mitigated or aren't the maximum of what she could have done and you use them to say that she is utterly incapable of so much as damaging the Pillars. Kokushibo is just in reference to the end result of what happened to Muichiro after he got hit by the pillar, that is in of itself not too important as a detail but it does give that particular attack from Nakime a certain context.

The wall that Muichiro was smashed through doesn't seem to have been particularly thick and considering whom he encountered afterwards it appears to me that the primary purpose of the attack from Nakime was to get Muichiro killed by Kokushibo and she wouldn't actually need to deal significant damage to Muichiro for that.

The attack was clearly pushing Muichiro towards Kokushibo's location, so it makes sense that they weren't separated by massively thick walls.

Check your responses to these references of mine of the wall not being that thick.

That's only in regard to Giyu's interaction with other Pillars and how he views himself. As far as we know that has never stopped him from doing his job as a demon slayer which he is doing quite good based on what we see though I concede that we don't in-depth just how much they were affected even if we do have the indications of them having been heavily influenced by them. I'd say that Mitsuri is still much weaker than Rengoku at that point who was in fact the one who defeated Hairo. During that same mission she would have been quickly killed by Hairo if Rengoku didn't save her, so I don't think she is even close at that time. The constructs generally don't seem to be that strong compared to Hairo himself since the other regular demon slayers on that mission were able to defend themselves from them while looking for and defusing bombs. Since Mitsuri adapted her style her slashes were presumably more effective as a result, so her being able to deal with them like that was presumably not just pure physical strength even if that did in fact play a role here as well.

 

[Razor]

I think calling Mitsuri's feat effortless here is stretching it a bit since she had to use her sword while lying on the pillar and only got away shortly before she would have hit the ceiling. We do know that Nakime could deal more damage than she could have done in the case of Muichiro and that the damage she could deal from completely unmitigated attacks would be higher than what was the case with Mitsuri. You are kinda treating it like a limit though. The attacks we have seen connect have either been mitigated or aren't the maximum of what she could have done and you use them to say that she is utterly incapable of so much as damaging the Pillars. Kokushibo is just in reference to the end result of what happened to Muichiro after he got hit by the pillar, that is in of itself not too important as a detail but it does give that particular attack from Nakime a certain context.



Check your responses to these references of mine of the wall not being that thick.

That's only in regard to Giyu's interaction with other Pillars and how he views himself. As far as we know that has never stopped him from doing his job as a demon slayer which he is doing quite good based on what we see though I concede that we don't in-depth just how much they were affected even if we do have the indications of them having been heavily influenced by them. I'd say that Mitsuri is still much weaker than Rengoku at that point who was in fact the one who defeated Hairo. During that same mission she would have been quickly killed by Hairo if Rengoku didn't save her, so I don't think she is even close at that time. The constructs generally don't seem to be that strong compared to Hairo himself since the other regular demon slayers on that mission were able to defend themselves from them while looking for and defusing bombs. Since Mitsuri adapted her style her slashes were presumably more effective as a result, so her being able to deal with them like that was presumably not just pure physical strength even if that did in fact play a role here as well.

It isn't really, She was paranoid and scared and still managed to break the pillar, Her attacking with one pillar isn't mitigated, Her crashing someone through a wall or between two pillars is just above what she could normally do, Its not like her crushing is the average and her simply hitting is below average in terms of the attack potency she can dish out. I'm just saying we haven't seen her do anything above that. Just saying that she has the potential to do more doesn't make that said potential her bare AP since like you said its just what she potentially can do, A human can kill another human with accumulative hits and at the same time punch a human without them enduring serious injury, A human hitting someone over and over would be the same as the crushing part and a single punch would be a single pillar hitting an opponent. Why are you using fancy words like "utterly" and stuff, And yes I do think she isn't damaging the pillars since she never did do any real damage against even the lower part of the hashirsas.

I didn't deny them cause I didn't even address them at the first place, I am now so whats the relevancy of me not denying your statements earlier?

Sure he isn't affected by it much right now but it could've hindered him at the past or something. I never state nor implied that mitsuri was as strong or even close to rengoku and her being massively weaker is expected, Kyojuro was hashira level and mitsuri is supposedly a mizunoto. That's to be expected but your average mizunoto wouldn't have been able to take out hairo's constructs casually after a morale boost. They have the AP to bite through her skin so they aren't fodder to her by any means, Not in AP at least but she had the skill and flexibility to make up for it, or they were just glass cannons. I wasn't talking about AP though, I talked about how strong she was then as a mizunoto in general which involves a lot of other stuff like you said

 

[Nehz_XZX]

It isn't really, She was paranoid and scared and still managed to break the pillar, Her attacking with one pillar isn't mitigated, Her crashing someone through a wall or between two pillars is just above what she could normally do, Its not like her crushing is the average and her simply hitting is below average in terms of the attack potency she can dish out. I'm just saying we haven't seen her do anything above that. Just saying that she has the potential to do more doesn't make that said potential her bare AP since like you said its just what she potentially can do, A human can kill another human with accumulative hits and at the same time punch a human without them enduring serious injury, A human hitting someone over and over would be the same as the crushing part and a single punch would be a single pillar hitting an opponent. Why are you using fancy words like "utterly" and stuff, And yes I do think she isn't damaging the pillars since she never did do any real damage against even the lower part of the hashirsas.

I didn't deny them cause I didn't even address them at the first place, I am now so whats the relevancy of me not denying your statements earlier?

Sure he isn't affected by it much right now but it could've hindered him at the past or something. I never state nor implied that mitsuri was as strong or even close to rengoku and her being massively weaker is expected, Kyojuro was hashira level and mitsuri is supposedly a mizunoto. That's to be expected but your average mizunoto wouldn't have been able to take out hairo's constructs casually after a morale boost. They have the AP to bite through her skin so they aren't fodder to her by any means, Not in AP at least but she had the skill and flexibility to make up for it, or they were just glass cannons. I wasn't talking about AP though, I talked about how strong she was then as a mizunoto in general which involves a lot of other stuff like you said

Being paranoid and scared kinda takes away from the whole "effortless" thing and I'm not sure how much emotions like that actually hinder her in combat but I guess it does show that she can hold her own even when she feels like that. Mitsuri still mitigated the overall fallout from Nakime attacking with one pillar. Well, none of Nakime's attacks that she landed truly put an upper limit to the damage she can deal with her attacks and we do have Nakime making Mitsuri worry about potentially dying and Muzan being tricked into believing that she killed Mitsuri and Obanai both of which would indicate that dealing damage to the Pillars is in her capacity even if we don't know the actual degree of damage she could deal. Based on that I wouldn't say that Nakime is outright on Mitsuri and Obanai's level but I'd also say that she is still not weaker than them to the point where she can't deal damage. I guess I just have a tendency for that? No particular reason comes to my mind when I think about it. Her not managing to hit Pillars with unmitigated full power attacks isn't the same as a total incapability to inflict damage in my opinion.

I just noted that you didn't do that earlier and then you said that you did dispute it and asked what I meant, so I showed you the comments where you didn't dispute it to make clear what I meant since you asked about it.

That's a tad speculative but could be possible. Okay, that still means though that Mitsuri wasn't that close to Lower Moon level at that point in time. Also, I never said that she wasn't stronger than the regular Mizunoto. Rengoku was already praising her at the time and it has been noted that she needed only 6 months of training to pass Final Selection.

 

[Razor]

Being paranoid and scared kinda takes away from the whole "effortless" thing and I'm not sure how much emotions like that actually hinder her in combat but I guess it does show that she can hold her own even when she feels like that. Mitsuri still mitigated the overall fallout from Nakime attacking with one pillar. Well, none of Nakime's attacks that she landed truly put an upper limit to the damage she can deal with her attacks and we do have Nakime making Mitsuri worry about potentially dying and Muzan being tricked into believing that she killed Mitsuri and Obanai both of which would indicate that dealing damage to the Pillars is in her capacity even if we don't know the actual degree of damage she could deal. Based on that I wouldn't say that Nakime is outright on Mitsuri and Obanai's level but I'd also say that she is still not weaker than them to the point where she can't deal damage. I guess I just have a tendency for that? No particular reason comes to my mind when I think about it. Her not managing to hit Pillars with unmitigated full power attacks isn't the same as a total incapability to inflict damage in my opinion.

I just noted that you didn't do that earlier and then you said that you did dispute it and asked what I meant, so I showed you the comments where you didn't dispute it to make clear what I meant since you asked about it.

That's a tad speculative but could be possible. Okay, that still means though that Mitsuri wasn't that close to Lower Moon level at that point in time. Also, I never said that she wasn't stronger than the regular Mizunoto. Rengoku was already praising her at the time and it has been noted that she needed only 6 months of training to pass Final Selection.

Being paranoid and scared doesn't have anything to do with actual effort, You can also be perfectly capable of squishing a cockroach but be scared of one. This thing happened before with mitsuri where she was afraid of hairo's constructs and after the family gave her a morale boost she finessed them. The pillar hit her, She prevented another attack that will do another set of damage from happening. If you get punched once and then dodge the other you aren't mitigating what the first hit did, you simply prevented another hit from landing. Both are negated because obanai though otherwise and muzan didn't know how exactly strong the two was except for the fact that they fodderize lower moons which we already agreed on earlier. I never denied her AP was capable of hurting pillars but obanai and mitsuri are far far above a regular pillar. But they didn't and there was no proof she could so why can we say she can damage them? And those two statements contradict each other, For nakime to deal damage she'd have to be on their level. Again I never said she wasn't capable of doing any better than what she landed but we haven't seen anything stronger than what she did nor should her unmitigated attacks would amp her strength by much anyways, I doubt just crashing someone through a wall will be enough to close the gap of not being on someone's level and being scalable to them in AP.

Ok.

Its not confirmed for sure but it is likely. That doesn't matter though, her not being close to LM as a mizunoto shouldn't be a surprise. If you don't disagree then we can agree that she didn't have the hardest time reaching hashira then?

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Being paranoid and scared doesn't have anything to do with actual effort, You can also be perfectly capable of squishing a cockroach but be scared of one. This thing happened before with mitsuri where she was afraid of hairo's constructs and after the family gave her a morale boost she finessed them. The pillar hit her, She prevented another attack that will do another set of damage from happening. If you get punched once and then dodge the other you aren't mitigating what the first hit did, you simply prevented another hit from landing. Both are negated because obanai though otherwise and muzan didn't know how exactly strong the two was except for the fact that they fodderize lower moons which we already agreed on earlier. I never denied her AP was capable of hurting pillars but obanai and mitsuri are far far above a regular pillar. But they didn't and there was no proof she could so why can we say she can damage them? And those two statements contradict each other, For nakime to deal damage she'd have to be on their level. Again I never said she wasn't capable of doing any better than what she landed but we haven't seen anything stronger than what she did nor should her unmitigated attacks would amp her strength by much anyways, I doubt just crashing someone through a wall will be enough to close the gap of not being on someone's level and being scalable to them in AP.

Ok.

Its not confirmed for sure but it is likely. That doesn't matter though, her not being close to LM as a mizunoto shouldn't be a surprise. If you don't disagree then we can agree that she didn't have the hardest time reaching hashira then?

Her hitting the ceiling isn't a separate attack though? She got hit by the pillar and the pillar itself was on collision course with the ceiling but Nakime setting the pillar in motion into that direction is just one move by itself. I don't think Obanai's statement outright says something like that Nakime's Blood Demon Art is weak though, he just says that it isn't that deadly and the deadliness is already mitigated by them being able to reliably dodge and you did say that Mitsuri and Obanai were being careful. It isn't necessary to have at least the exact same amount of power to deal damage to someone though. Minor damage can still be dealt by someone who is relatively weak by comparison provided they aren't too much weaker.

I guess? Mitsuri not being close to a Lower Moon at that time shows that she presumably still had to face enemies against which she struggled on her way to becoming a Pillar which is what I argued for. I guess I can agree to her not having the hardest time reaching her position in the sense that she didn't have much emotional baggage in comparison to the other Pillars and had good starting conditions but I'd still like emphasize that she still needed to put in the effort and accumulate the appropriate achievements. That would be all then.

 

[Razor]

Her hitting the ceiling isn't a separate attack though? She got hit by the pillar and the pillar itself was collision course with the ceiling but Nakime setting the pillar in motion into that direction is just one move by itself. I don't think Obanai's statement outright says something like that Nakime's Blood Demon Art is weak though, he just says that it isn't that deadly and the deadliness is already mitigated by them being able to dodge and you did say that Mitsuri and Obanai were being careful. It isn't necessary to have at least the exact same amount of power to deal damage to someone though. Minor damage can still be dealt by someone who is relatively weak by comparison provided they aren't too much weaker.

I guess? Mitsuri not being close to a Lower Moon shows that she still had to face enemies against which she struggled on her way to becoming a Pillar which is what I argued for. I guess I can agree to her not having the hardest time reaching her position in the sense that she didn't have much emotional baggage in comparison to the other Pillar and had good starting conditions but I'd still like emphasize that she still needed to put in the effort and accumulate the appropriate achivements. That would be all then.

She isn't producing the AP with one hit like with someone punching somebody else and why can't that just be coughed up to her using her environments well? If someone smacks your head into steel that doesn't mean he has the AP to deal equal damage to what the impact does. I never said that he said it was weak but it outright contradicts mitsuri's gag statement, He never said anywhere that the BDA isn't deadly cause they mitigated the damage. I never said they had to be equal in strength but you'd still have to be relative to someone to cause damage to them.

Not really, She wasn't close to lower moon level but that doesn't mean she had that hard of a time since she did train after that as well and improved her stuff even more, I didn't really argue against her struggling but she did have advantages. Yeah I can agree with her putting effort, every one of the hashiras did, Anyways I don't really remember why we brought up the fact of her struggling against LM. I think it was because you were trying to prove that she had experiences with dealing foes that are a serious threat to her because I brought up the fact that she was under pressure, if that is the case then I can concede since this is kinda unnecessary because under pressure or not she would've still been making inferior decisions to obanai I would say.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

She isn't producing the AP with one hit like with someone punching somebody else and why can't that just be coughed up to her using her environments well? If someone smacks your head into steel that doesn't mean he has the AP to deal equal damage to what the impact does. I never said that he said it was weak but it outright contradicts mitsuri's gag statement, He never said anywhere that the BDA isn't deadly cause they mitigated the damage. I never said they had to be equal in strength but you'd still have to be relative to someone to cause damage to them.

Not really, She wasn't close to lower moon level but that doesn't mean she had that hard of a time since she did train after that as well and improved her stuff even more, I didn't really argue against her struggling but she did have advantages. Yeah I can agree with her putting effort, every one of the hashiras did, Anyways I don't really remember why we brought up the fact of her struggling against LM. I think it was because you were trying to prove that she had experiences with dealing foes that are a serious threat to her because I brought up the fact that she was under pressure, if that is the case then I can concede since this is kinda unnecessary because under pressure or not she would've still been making inferior decisions to obanai I would say.

I can concede that the impact with hard surfaces from the environment isn't the same as the Attack Potency of the attacker but you do have to keep in mind that the entirety of the Infinity Castle was under Nakime's control, so in this case it wasn't just her using the environment well, the environment was straight up her means of attacking her enemies. Obanai doesn't really state the exact reasoning for why Nakime's Blood Demon Art isn't that deadly, so all we can do is assume that he is analyzing all he has witnessed the Blood Demon Art do and how they were able to deal with it which would include them being able to evade the attacks. Nakime being relative to Mitsuri and Obanai but still significantly weaker would work out for me, that wouldn't exactly be the same as being on their level.

Not sure what you mean with "that hard" of a time but if you agree with her having put in effort and that she can work under pressure just fine, then I'm content. I can agree with Obanai having a more analytical mindset than Mitsuri.

 

[Razor]

I can concede that the impact with hard surfaces from the environment isn't the same as the Attack Potency of the attacker but you do have to keep in mind that the entirety of the Infinity Castle was under Nakime's control, so in this case it wasn't just her using the environment well, the environment was straight up her means of attacking her enemies. Obanai doesn't really state the exact reasoning for why Nakime's Blood Demon Art isn't that deadly, so all we can do is assume that he is analyzing all he is witnessed the Blood Demon Art do and how they were able to deal with it which would include them being able to evade the attacks. Nakime being relative to Mitsuri and Obanai but still significantly weaker would work out for me, that wouldn't exactly be the same as being on their level.

Not sure what you mean with "that hard" of a time but if you agree with her having put in effort and that she can work under pressure just fine, then I'm content. I can agree with Obanai having a more analytical mindset than Mitsuri.

That also implies to anyone who's smart enough to use the environment to their favor, A character can treat an environment as a means to attack their opponents as well while it wouldn't scale to their AP. I doubt he'd call them deadly if they could do actual damage if they hadn't dodge, Obanai would probably assume the worst and take the safest bet so if nakime did have a decent chance of damaging them he wouldn't call it not deadly, There's also the problem of nakime just seemingly stalling them out and really only attacked a few times. Relative and significantly weaker are two different things though and plus she shouldn't scale to them in AP.

I meant compared to other pillars, but we seem to agree here so that's nice

 

[Nehz_XZX]

That also implies to anyone who's smart enough to use the environment to their favor, A character can treat an environment as a means to attack their opponents as well while it wouldn't scale to their AP. I doubt he'd call them deadly if they could do actual damage if they hadn't dodge, Obanai would probably assume the worst and take the safest bet so if nakime did have a decent chance of damaging them he wouldn't call it not deadly, There's also the problem of nakime just seemingly stalling them out and really only attacked a few times. Relative and significantly weaker are two different things though and plus she shouldn't scale to them in AP.

I meant compared to other pillars, but we seem to agree here so that's nice

Not everyone who makes use of the environment can use it like their own body though. Her making use of the environment using her Blood Demon Art is also the only way she ever attacks in the manga, so I'm not sure how much not scaling her usage of the environment to her Attack Potency would even make sense in her case. Decent chance in the sense that her attacks are strong enough to cause damage or decent chance in the sense of having a high probability of landing an attack? A lot of this stalling was her defending herself from Mitsuri and Obanai and she has shown that she has no problem with sending multiple pillars in succession after them. Would downscaling really be an issue here?

Mitsuri still needed to fulfill the same requirements and duties though I agree with her conditions leading up to becoming a Pillar not having been as harsh.

 

[Razor]

Not everyone who makes use of the environment can use it like their own body though. Her making use of the environment using her Blood Demon Art is also the only way she ever attacks in the manga, so I'm not sure how much not scaling her usage of the environment to her Attack Potency would even make sense in her case. Decent chance in the sense that her attacks are strong enough to cause damage or decent chance in the sense of having a high probability of landing an attack? A lot of this stalling was her defending herself from Mitsuri and Obanai and she has shown that she has no problem with sending multiple pillars in succession after them. Would downscaling really be an issue here?

Mitsuri still needed to fulfill the same requirements and duties though I agree with her conditions leading up to becoming a Pillar not having been as harsh.

Her using a pillar to attack someone should scale to her AP cause its casual but smashing with another pillar or through a wall should be her using the environment. Her using it like her own body would just mean its easier for her to use her environment to her advantage and that she had a specific ability for it. Decent chance that her damages actually will cause damage, although this is just obanai's perspective and like I said he likely assumed the worst from what he's seen so he could've thought that the pillar will do serious damage and just dodged them out of safety even he did not know for sure. Is it really fair to assume they didn't get hit at least a few times in the fight? Mitsuri already got hit at the beginning so nakime most likely had at least a few hits in before the fight ended and they still didn't have injuries.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Her using a pillar to attack someone should scale to her AP cause its casual but smashing with another pillar or through a wall should be her using the environment. Her using it like her own body would just mean its easier for her to use her environment to her advantage and that she had a specific ability for it. Decent chance that her damages actually will cause damage, although this is just obanai's perspective and like I said he likely assumed the worst from what he's seen so he could've thought that the pillar will do serious damage and just dodged them out of safety even he did not know for sure. Is it really fair to assume they didn't get hit at least a few times in the fight? Mitsuri already got hit at the beginning so nakime most likely had at least a few hits in before the fight ended and they still didn't have injuries.

That still sounds like something notable to me and Nakime did show that she can use multiple pillars together and in quick succession. If moving the Infinity Castle is like moving her body for her, then any damage one could potentially suffer from hitting a surface in the Infinity Fortress is going to be something that she can match or surpass by being able to move that part of the Infinity Fortress under the right circumstances. Technically we can't know that entirely for sure. It is true that Nakime's attack connecting with Mitsuri would make it seem like as if she had a decent chance of doing so again but what could also have happened is that Mitsuri could have gotten more cautious about or used to the attacks and proceeded to completely avoid them. In Iguro's case, he wasn't hit in the first place and Mitsuri getting hit would signal to him to be more cautious and look out for Mitsuri, so there's that. The answer is that we really don't know that but we can assume that Mitsuri and Obanai avoided most if not all of the worst case scenarios.

 

[Razor]

That still sounds like something notable to me and Nakime did show that she can use multiple pillars together and in quick succession. If moving the Infinity Castle is like moving her body for her, then any damage one could potentially suffer from hitting a surface in the Infinity Fortress is going to be something that she can match or surpass by being able to move that part of the Infinity Fortress under the right circumstances. Technically we can't know that entirely for sure. It is true that Nakime's attack connecting with Mitsuri would make it seem like as if she had a decent chance of doing so again but what could also have happened is that Mitsuri could have gotten more cautious about or used to the attacks and proceeded to completely avoid them. In Iguro's case, he wasn't hit in the first place and Mitsuri getting hit would signal to him to be more cautious and look out for Mitsuri, so there's that. The answer is that we really don't know that but we can assume that Mitsuri and Obanai avoided most if not all of the worst case scenarios.

A person can throw punches in quick succession as well, Or throw multiple items at someone in a short period of time to deal accumulative damage. That goes for everyone who uses their environment to their advantage like I said, Someone can also throw a chair or smash someone through a table but it won't match their AP, Nakime can just use the environment to her advantage easier than the average character. I'm not purely talking about that one instance where mitsuri got caught I'm talking about the whole fight which lasted pretty long, it seems unlikely to me that she didn't hit them a few times. Obanai is careful for sure but I don't think we should say he dodged everything, He would've been hit at least once or twice unless nakime's aim is trash which doesn't seem to be the case. I agree with them dodging most of her attacks but all? Nah, Maybe you can say obanait got hit only once but mitsuri most likely got hit a couple of times.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

A person can throw punches in quick succession as well, Or throw multiple items at someone in a short period of time to deal accumulative damage. That goes for everyone who uses their environment to their advantage like I said, Someone can also throw a chair or smash someone through a table but it won't match their AP, Nakime can just use the environment to her advantage easier than the average character. I'm not purely talking about that one instance where mitsuri got caught I'm talking about the whole fight which lasted pretty long, it seems unlikely to me that she didn't hit them a few times. Obanai is careful for sure but I don't think we should say he dodged everything, He would've been hit at least once or twice unless nakime's aim is trash which doesn't seem to be the case. I agree with them dodging most of her attacks but all? Nah, Maybe you can say obanait got hit only once but mitsuri most likely got hit a couple of times.

Nakime doesn't just use pillars in succession but is also shown using multiple ones at the same time and that isn't just accumulative damage then. In this case it isn't just using the environment to your advantage, it's the only way she ever actually attacks. She doesn't just have an easier time using the environment to her advantage, using the environment is all she ever does for her attacks. What sort of hypothetical hits are we talking about in this particular case? Hits that grazed Mitsuri and Obanai, hits that hit them but got mitigated or hits that hit them and made them crash? I'd say that Obanai would probably look out for Mitsuri to some degree, that would at the very least be in-character for him and Mitsuri commented that Nakime's ability to move the Infinity Fortress was surprising but okay which indicates confidence in being able to deal with that once she figured out what sort of Blood Demon Art Nakime had and the element of surprise was gone. This is further supported by a later comment from Mitsuri that Nakime won't hit her with the same attack again though that was before Obanai came to the conclusion that the fight with Nakime might get long and troublesome.

 

[Razor]

Nakime doesn't just use pillars in succession but is also shown using multiple ones at the same time and that isn't just accumulative damage then. In this case it isn't just using the environment to your advantage, it's the only way she ever actually attacks. She doesn't just have an easier time using the environment to her advantage, using the environment is all she ever does for her attacks. What sort of hypothetical hits are we talking about in this particular case? Hits that grazed Mitsuri and Obanai, hits that hit them but got mitigated or hits that hit them and made them crash? I'd say that Obanai would probably look out for Mitsuri to some degree, that would at the very least be in-character for him and Mitsuri commented that Nakime's ability to move the Infinity Fortress was surprising but okay which indicates confidence in being able to deal with that once she figured out what sort of Blood Demon Art Nakime had and the element of surprise was gone. This is further supported by a later comment from Mitsuri that Nakime won't hit her with the same attack again though that was before Obanai came to the conclusion that the fight with Nakime might get long and troublesome.

That is still accumulative damage since its multiple hits, someone punching you over and over in a quick succession is accumulative damage. Just because thats the only way she attacks doesn't mean it scales to her AP, If someone only has environmental destruction then they only have that for their AP, Plus I wasn't talking about her hitting someone with a pillar, I was talking about her hitting someone with a pillar and then smashing it since she's not controlling the wall that the person is going to be smashed through. If we assume ALL the hits that landed from nakime are hits that grazed them then she must've had trash aim. Obanai can't look out for mitsuri and look out for himself at the same time, Nakime is proficient with her BDA after all so they're not going to dodge so easily that they can start worrying about others and themselves at the same time. That statement wasn't really an analytical statement. Its not really hard to grasp or figure out what nakime's BDA is after 2 minutes, I doubt the only reason mitsuri got hit was because of nakime's surprise factor

 

[Nehz_XZX]

That is still accumulative damage since its multiple hits, someone punching you over and over in a quick succession is accumulative damage. Just because thats the only way she attacks doesn't mean it scales to her AP, If someone only has environmental destruction then they only have that for their AP, Plus I wasn't talking about her hitting someone with a pillar, I was talking about her hitting someone with a pillar and then smashing it since she's not controlling the wall that the person is going to be smashed through. If we assume ALL the hits that landed from nakime are hits that grazed them then she must've had trash aim. Obanai can't look out for mitsuri and look out for himself at the same time, Nakime is proficient with her BDA after all so they're not going to dodge so easily that they can start worrying about others and themselves at the same time. That statement wasn't really an analytical statement. Its not really hard to grasp or figure out what nakime's BDA is after 2 minutes, I doubt the only reason mitsuri got hit was because of nakime's surprise factor

Would Nakime crushing someone with two pillars at once count as accumulative damage in your opinion? The thing is that Nakime's attacks aren't environmental damage and are shown to be used in a directly offensive manner. You are kind of ignoring the second category of hits I suggested for the hypothetical hits Nakime might have landed and while Nakime is undoubtedly proficient with her Blood Demon Art Mitsuri and Obanai are quite good at what they do. Not only are they moving targets but they are moving targets which will see her attacks coming and react to them for the most part, so it isn't purely a matter of aim here. It's not about a person being analytical but it's more a matter of understanding and confidence which admittedly isn't much in this context. Given that the context is that Mitsuri got hit after she called out to Obanai out of concern she definitly got surprised here and understanding what the opponent's ability is certainly helped in anticipating incoming attacks. It does seem like as if Obanai is someone whom Nakime either needs to surprise or corner if she wants to get a hit on him if his dodging performance against multiple pillars in succession is anything to judge.

 

[Razor]

Would Nakime crushing someone with two pillars at once count as accumulative damage in your opinion? The thing is that Nakime's attacks aren't environmental damage and are shown to be used in a directly offensive manner. You are kind of ignoring the second category of hits I suggested for the hypothetical hits Nakime might have landed and while Nakime is undoubtedly proficient with her Blood Demon Art Mitsuri and Obanai are quite good at what they do. Not only are they moving targets but they are moving targets which will see her attacks coming and react to them for the most part, so it isn't purely a matter of aim here. It's not about a person being analytical but it's more a matter of understanding and confidence which admittedly isn't much in this context. Given that the context is that Mitsuri got hit after she called out to Obanai out of concern she definitly got surprised here and understanding what the opponent's ability is certainly helped in anticipating incoming attacks. It does seem like as if Obanai is someone whom Nakime either needs to surprise or corner if she wants to get a hit on him if his dodging performance against multiple pillars in succession is anything to judge.

Nah cause that is one attack, It'll be kinda hard to pull off tho. They are though, And them being used offensively doesn't mean anything since it'd still be using her environment to her advantage whether its offensive, defensive or other stuff. What do you mean by mitigated? Like if they sliced the pillar before it reaches? If so I wouldn't even call that a hit. Yeah plus nakime can use multiple pillars in quick succession like you said so I feel like its safe to say they got hit a few times. If she catches them off guard or uses multiple pillars then she should be able to hit them at least a few times. Its kinda hard to explain what I was saying, Basically you know how characters, most of the times MCs tell their opponents "I'll definitely beat you" or something, most of the times when they say that they aren't really thinking they could actually beat the said character. The only time he dodged multiple pillars is when nakime attacked him with pillars at the same direction, all of the pillars came from one direction so that one was pretty easy to dodge, I'd assume nakime can get more creative than that

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Nah cause that is one attack, It'll be kinda hard to pull off tho. They are though, And them being used offensively doesn't mean anything since it'd still be using her environment to her advantage whether its offensive, defensive or other stuff. What do you mean by mitigated? Like if they sliced the pillar before it reaches? If so I wouldn't even call that a hit. Yeah plus nakime can use multiple pillars in quick succession like you said so I feel like its safe to say they got hit a few times. If she catches them off guard or uses multiple pillars then she should be able to hit them at least a few times. Its kinda hard to explain what I was saying, Basically you know how characters, most of the times MCs tell their opponents "I'll definitely beat you" or something, most of the times when they say that they aren't really thinking they could actually beat the said character. The only time he dodged multiple pillars is when nakime attacked him with pillars at the same direction, all of the pillars came from one direction so that one was pretty easy to dodge, I'd assume nakime can get more creative than that

It should still count since it's a single attack and should be more powerful than using a single pillar to crash someone through a wall. Even though her having that very same environment to make use of is basically going to be the standard for her? She is pretty much always there and can teleport people in and out. Mitigated in the same sense as Mitsuri preventing herself from crashing into the ceiling because of a pillar or similar stuff. Yeah, what you are suggesting with multiple pillars from different directions does sound like the sort of thing she'd need to assault Obanai and Mitsuri with in order to successfully hit them. Pillars coming from multiple directions at different angles also seems to be what happened in the fake view Muzan had from Nakime which suggests that a move like that wouldn't be unusual from her though Mitsuri was shown dodging two pillars incoming from two different directions in chapter 183 and presumably did so with everything else while the castle was moving all over because of Yushiro and Muzan's clash of wills. Your examples with MCs or more generally characters sounds like an exclamation of their sheer determination to me. Like that they want to say that they aren't going to stop until they manage to achieve exactly that not because they are actually sure of it but because they aren't going to give up and feel as if they cannot afford giving in. Mitsuri's context is that she was under some pressure from Nakime's attacks but began understanding what Nakime is capable of and thought it was okay for her. After that she attempted to attack Nakime and made that declaration that she was not going to get hit by that same attack again and to be fair we never saw her getting hit again and even if she did get hit it probably wasn't a pillar from the same direction and angle.

 

[Razor]

It should still count since it's a single attack and should be more powerful than using a single pillar to crash someone through a wall. Even though her having that very same environment to make use of is basically going to be the standard for her? She is pretty much always there and can teleport people in and out. Mitigated in the same sense as Mitsuri preventing herself from crashing into the ceiling because of a pillar or similar stuff. Yeah, what you are suggesting with multiple pillars from different directions does sound like the sort of thing she'd need to assault Obanai and Mitsuri with in order to successfully hit them. Pillars coming from multiple directions at different angles also seems to be what happened in the fake view Muzan had from Nakime which suggests that a move like that wouldn't be unusual from her though Mitsuri was shown dodging two pillars incoming from two different directions in chapter 183 and presumably did so with everything else while the castle was moving all over because of Yushiro and Muzan's clash of wills. Your examples with MCs or more generally characters sounds like an exclamation of their sheer determination to me. Like that they want to say that they aren't going to stop until they manage to achieve exactly that not because they are actually sure of it but because they aren't going to give up and feel as if they cannot afford giving in. Mitsuri's context is that she was under some pressure from Nakime's attacks but began understanding what Nakime is capable of and thought it was okay for her. After that she attempted to attack Nakime and made that declaration that she was not going to get hit by that same attack again and to be fair we never saw her getting hit again and even if she did get hit it probably wasn't a pillar from the same direction and angle.

it does count, I didn't say it didn't. No? What do you mean the standard for her? SBA takes place in NYC Not in the IF so its not the standard for her, not in vs threads at least. Was she shown to teleport people inside of it if she's not inside it herself? She didn't mitigated jack there, She took the full force of the pillar hitting her and only prevented the wall that wasn't part of nakime's attack from hitting her as well. That's literally impossible for her to dodge the pillars whilst yushiro and muzan was fighting cause at that moment they were fighting over nakime's mind and nakime controls the pillar so how will she be able to launch two pillars at mitsuri if she's getting mind ******. And that could be the same case with mitsuri, She wasn't exclaiming that she thinks nakime is incapable of landing an attack to her but just her being confident she can dodge, and she says "with the same attack" anyways so mitsuri wasn't saying nakime wasn't gonna hit her at all. Yeah cause the fight wasn't shown to us at all, First part of the fight is them fighting for a little bit then it cuts to kokushibo vs the other pillars and then it didn't cut back to the nakime fight UNTIL the kokushibo fight ENDED, and they were still fighting after that so they've been fighting for a long while so the chances of mitsuri having hit in that period of time is likely

 

[Nehz_XZX]

it does count, I didn't say it didn't. No? What do you mean the standard for her? SBA takes place in NYC Not in the IF so its not the standard for her, not in vs threads at least. Was she shown to teleport people inside of it if she's not inside it herself? She didn't mitigated jack there, She took the full force of the pillar hitting her and only prevented the wall that wasn't part of nakime's attack from hitting her as well. That's literally impossible for her to dodge the pillars whilst yushiro and muzan was fighting cause at that moment they were fighting over nakime's mind and nakime controls the pillar so how will she be able to launch two pillars at mitsuri if she's getting mind ******. And that could be the same case with mitsuri, She wasn't exclaiming that she thinks nakime is incapable of landing an attack to her but just her being confident she can dodge, and she says "with the same attack" anyways so mitsuri wasn't saying nakime wasn't gonna hit her at all. Yeah cause the fight wasn't shown to us at all, First part of the fight is them fighting for a little bit then it cuts to kokushibo vs the other pillars and then it didn't cut back to the nakime fight UNTIL the kokushibo fight ENDED, and they were still fighting after that so they've been fighting for a long while so the chances of mitsuri having hit in that period of time is likely

You did note that it would be hard to pull off, so I felt that there was a need for a clarification. Standard in the sense of where she usually starts off in-character though that might not mean much for the Standard Battle Assumptions but Nakime would probably try to return to the Infinity Fortress if she was outside for her usual Modus Operandi. Nakime was never shown outside the Infinity Fortress, so we are never shown something like that but given that her Blood Demon Art is heavily tied to it I would make that assumption. If she couldn't transport anyone inside while outside, then how did she get inside herself? If she can get herself inside the Infinity Fortress, then she can teleport others there once she is inside there if she can't do that from outside of the Infinity Fortress. That was a ceiling not a wall and the pillar going into that direction was definitely done on purpose by Nakime, so it is kind of part of that particular attack in the sense that it was intended to play a role here. In chapter 183 right after Mitsuri had a flashback to Yushiro some of the pillars around her were going crazy. One coming from below and then we see Mitsuri avoiding two pillars crashing into each other. So yeah, Nakime probably didn't launch these consciously and it was just the Infinity Fortress going crazy because of Yushiro and Muzan fighting over the control of Nakime which might make these easier to dodge than with consciously launched pillars but it would also be a lot more chaotic. Her saying that it's okay indicates that she believes that she can deal with it and her following declaration is in line with that but that declaration is probably not just connected to her prior conclusion about Nakime's Blood Demon Art but also determination, so it would kind of be a mix. It's true that a lot of the fight wasn't seen and that it went on for long, I just felt that it would be appropriate to point out that Mitsuri wasn't hit on any panel we see after that which does fit her declaration.

 

[Razor]

You did note that it would be hard to pull off, so I felt that there was a need for a clarification. Standard in the sense of where she usually starts off in-character though that might not mean much for the Standard Battle Assumptions but Nakime would probably try to return to the Infinity Fortress if she was outside for her usual Modus Operandi. Nakime was never shown outside the Infinity Fortress, so we are never shown something like that but given that her Blood Demon Art is heavily tied to it I would make that assumption. If she couldn't transport anyone inside, then how did she get inside herself? If she can get herself inside the Infinity Fortress, then she can teleport others there once she is inside there if she can't do that from outside of the Infinity Fortress. In chapter 183 right after Mitsuri had a flashback to Yushiro some of the pillars around her were going crazy. One coming from below and then we see Mitsuri avoiding two pillars crashing into each other. So yeah, Nakime probably didn't launch these consciously and it was just the Infinity Fortress going crazy because of Yushiro and Muzan fighting over the control of Nakime which might make these easier dodge than with consciously launched pillars. Her saying that it's okay indicates that she believes that she can deal with it and her following declaration is in line with that but that declaration is probably not just connected to her prior conclusion about Nakime's Blood Demon Art but also determination, so it would kind of be a mix. It's true that a lot of the fight wasn't seen and that it went on for long, I just felt that it would be appropriate to point out that Mitsuri wasn't hit on any panel we see which does fit her declaration.

The IF is somewhere in Japan and NYC is at america so I highly doubt she's getting to the IF in time, If she tried to it'll probably self-BFR. Eh I wouldn't really say her BDA has anything to do with it, Her BDA is to control the IF also can you tell me the chapter where she transported anyone inside the IF, I think she did it but I don't recall it exactly so there maybe context I'm forgetting. Why does she have to teleport to get inside? That was before yushiro and muzan clashed wills And I didn't see a pillar coming from below her either, I did see her jumping from two pillars crashing into each other. I'd say it was mostly determination and even if you say its an analytical statement, When she made that statement she'd seen like two attacks from nakime so she wouldn't have much to go off anyways.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

The IF is somewhere in Japan and NYC is at america so I highly doubt she's getting to the IF in time, If she tried to it'll probably self-BFR. Eh I wouldn't really say her BDA has anything to do with it, Her BDA is to control the IF also can you tell me the chapter where she transported anyone inside the IF, I think she did it but I don't recall it exactly so there maybe context I'm forgetting. Why does she have to teleport to get inside? That was before yushiro and muzan clashed wills And I didn't see a pillar coming from below her either, I did see her jumping from two pillars crashing into each other. I'd say it was mostly determination and even if you say its an analytical statement, When she made that statement she'd seen like two attacks from nakime so she wouldn't have much to go off anyways.

I really just assumed that Nakime would naturally have some connection with the Infinity Fortress that would allow her to do that since her Blood Demon Art seems to be about nothing but the Infinity Fortress and the Infinity Fortress fell apart after she died. How much of a range she has with the teleportation aspect of her Blood Demon Art is something that I didn't really contemplate but it does seem to work with any of the Twelve Demon Moons whenever Muzan wants to have a meeting with them and it worked with all of the Demon Slayer Corps members who were gathered because of the Pillar Training, so that might be worth debating. If being in NYC would stop Nakime from being able to use her Blood Demon Art at all by virtue of the Infinity Fortress being out of range, then that sounds like the sort of disadvantage you would want to avoid with the Standard Battle Assumptions to me and it would need to be the Teleportation due to how remote NYC would be for her I guess and it would be faster than any physical travel, it also seems in-character for her since she never seems to move her body much. Muzan used Nakime to get everyone into the Infinity Fortress in chapter 139 which is how all the fights and confrontations there were set into motion in the first place. It happens on the first panel after the flashback to Yushiro ends and that's where Mitsuri notes that Yushiro and Muzan are in a struggle, so it had already begun at that point. It's true that she didn't have much to go off but she did have a fairly accurate idea of what Nakime's Blood Demon Art is and concluded based on what she knew that it was okay for her, so at least the things that Nakime had displayed at that point in time are something that she can handle according to herself.

 

[Razor]

I really just assumed that Nakime would naturally have some connection with the Infinity Fortress that would allow her to do that since her Blood Demon Art seems to be about nothing but the Infinity Fortress and the Infinity Fortress fell apart after she died. How much of a range she has with it is something that I didn't really contemplate but it does seem to work with any of the Twelve Demon Moons whenever Muzan wants to have a meeting with them and it worked with all of the Demon Slayer Corps members who were gathered because of the Pillar Training, so that might be worth debating. If being NYC would stop Nakime from being able to use her Blood Demon Art at all by virtue of the Infinity Fortress being out of range then that sounds like the sort of disadvantage you would want to avoid with the Standard Battle Assumptions to me. It happens on the first panel after the flashback to Yushiro ends and that's where Mitsuri notes that Yushiro and Muzan are in a struggle, so it had already begun at that point. It's true that she didn't have much to go off but she did have a fairly accurate idea of what Nakime's Blood Demon Art and concluded based on what she knew that it was okay for her, so at least the things that Nakime had displayed that point in time are something that she can handle according to herself.

Yeah every nakime fight in the wiki has to take place in the IF. Muzan in the next panel after mitsuri dodged the stuff said "I can't see who it is but someone is near nakime, It must be tamayo's demon. He's got guts, I'm going to kill him" So they couldn't have been in a clash at that point. What nakime did at that time was stall her and obanai out and attacked with one pillar from one direction or Multiple pillars in the same direction, I don't think nakime has attacked with multiple pillars from multiple directions at that point

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Yeah every nakime fight in the wiki has to take place in the IF. Muzan in the next panel after mitsuri dodged the stuff said "I can't see who it is but someone is near nakime, It must be tamayo's demon. He's got guts, I'm going to kill him" So they couldn't have been in a clash at that point. What nakime did at that time was stall her and obanai out and attacked with one pillar from one direction or Multiple pillars in the same direction, I don't think nakime has attacked with multiple pillars from multiple directions at that point

Okay, I can agree with that. Actually, Muzan seems to already be in a state of concentration there, so I would interpret that as him making an observation while he is already at work preventing Yushiro from taking full control of Nakime. Seems more in line with the whole Infinity Fortress chaos being unleashed unless you think that either Yushiro or Nakime are doing that deliberately. Well, Mitsuri did see Nakime use multiple pillars in succession against Iguro and thought of Nakime's Blood Demon Art as her moving the building as if they were her hands and feet though that might not have accounted for Nakime changing up her attack patterns.

 

[Razor]

Okay, I can agree with that. Actually, Muzan seems to already be in a state of concentration there, so I would interpret that as him making an observation while he is already at work preventing Yushiro from taking full control of Nakime. Seems more in line with the whole Infinity Fortress chaos being unleashed unless you think that either Yushiro or Nakime are doing that deliberately. Well, Mitsuri did see Nakime use multiple pillars in succession against Iguro and thought of Nakime's Blood Demon Art as her moving the building as if they were her hands and feet though that might not have accounted for Nakime changing up her attack patterns.

Eh idk, Yushiro also states a panel after muzan's statement "Argh its muzan! I almost had control but he's wrestling it away", If muzan was already wrestling wills with him earlier he wouldn't say this. Yeah but multi-directional (Idk if thats a word but you can prolly guess what it means) pillars are a whole different thing than quick succession pillars. Plus two pillars crashing two each other from opponent directions is easy to dodge since dodging one also means dodging the other, And pillars in the same direction is easy to dodge as well since you just have to go at a straight line, its the same with the two pillasrs crashing at each other coming from opposite directions, dodge one and you dodge all the others but here you have to cross a greater distance but it doesn't make dodging it that much harder. attack sthat'll be hard to dodge are pillars attacking you at multiple directions while you're mid air, Pillars attacking you at multiple directions at quick succession, pulling a surprise attack, Or attack the person, let them dodge then hit them while they've already made their initial dodge, and other stuff. Mitsuri should've known attacking with pillars from one direction isn't the best nakime could do

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Eh idk, Yushiro also states a panel after muzan's statement "Argh its muzan! I almost had control but he's wrestling it away", If muzan was already wrestling wills with him earlier he wouldn't say this. Yeah but multi-directional (Idk if thats a word but you can prolly guess what it means) pillars are a whole different thing than quick succession pillars. Plus two pillars crashing two each other from opponent directions is easy to dodge since dodging one also means dodging the other, And pillars in the same direction is easy to dodge as well since you just have to go at a straight line, its the same with the two pillasrs crashing at each other coming from opposite directions, dodge one and you dodge all the others but here you have to cross a greater distance but it doesn't make dodging it that much harder. attack sthat'll be hard to dodge are pillars attacking you at multiple directions while you're mid air, Pillars attacking you at multiple directions at quick succession, pulling a surprise attack, Or attack the person, let them dodge then hit them while they've already made their initial dodge, and other stuff. Mitsuri should've known attacking with pillars from one direction isn't the best nakime could do

So, you think the previous sudden movements of the Infinity Fortress were because of a struggle between Yushiro and Nakime or what do you think here? I understand the word and also that it denotes something different from quick successon though if you describe something as being as easy as moving hand and feet you're probably not that far off. You'd still need to look out for the pillars in the same direction and make sure that there are no sudden changes in the movements, depending on the distance you need to move it might not be that easy though Obanai apparently only needed to dodge a couple like this. Pillars from the opposite directions that catting apart one pillar like Mitsuri did in chapter 164 will still end up in you getting hit by the other one if you aren't careful. Greater distance isn't that much harder but can play a role when you need to do that over a long time. I think multiple characters in the series displayed surprisingly good mid-air maneuvering, so that should still be doable for the pillars, multiple directions are harder but shouldn't be entirely unprecedented with all of the Blood Demon Arts and demons, surprise attacks can land but Mitsuri and Obanai do know Nakime's ability which would make that harder and dodging continunously should be doable for them as well. Well, Mitsuri already got surprised by Nakime, so surprise attacks are something that she experienced from Nakime to some extent.

 

[Razor]

So, you think the previous sudden movements of the Infinity Fortress were because of a struggle between Yushiro and Nakime or what do you think here? I understand the word and also that it denotes something different from quick successon though if you describe something as being as easy as moving hand and feet you're probably not that far off. You'd still need to look out for the pillars in the same direction and make sure that there are no sudden changes in the movements, depending on the distance you need to move it might not be that easy though Obanai apparently only needed to dodge a couple like this. Pillars from the opposite directions that catting apart one pillar like Mitsuri did in chapter 164 will still end up in you getting hit by the other one if you aren't careful. Greater distance isn't that much harder but can play a role when you need to do that over a long time. I think multiple characters in the series displayed surprisingly good mid-air maneuvering, so that should still be doable for the pillars, multiple directions are harder but shouldn't be entirely unprecedented with all of the Blood Demon Arts and demons, surprise attacks can land but Mitsuri and Obanai do know Nakime's ability which would make that harder and dodging continunously should be doable for them as well. Well, Mitsuri already got surprised by Nakime, so surprise attacks are something that she experienced from Nakime to some extent.

Yes, The moving of the IF was yushiro ******* up nakime's mind not muzan vs yushiro. So do you think one-directional multiple pillars are hard or not hard but not as easy either? Cause I'm in favor of the latter. Not really, Dodge one and dodge the other, If you jump you dodge both, If you go right you dodge both, if you go left you dodge both and if you go below them you dodge both, Not really a situation where you have to dodge both in two different times. Not really you just need to outspeed the pillars which obanai and mitsuri should easily be able to do. Yeah the pillars mobile and all but nakime should be able to overwhelm at least mitsuri or obanai individually with the sheer numbers of the pillars she can use and how creative she can get. They know what she can do but they don't know what nakime can do with what she can do (Basically they know the basic stuff but they dont know every possible combination nakime can use with the pillars). Nakime has more tricks up her sleeve and the times mitsuri got surprised was with basic stuff like nakime delfecting her attacks with what seems to be a window and then nakime using a pillar to ram onto her, I'd say her surprise comes from the fact that nakime's BDA is unorthodox and kinda weird/unique, A surprise attack is a different thing

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Yes, The moving of the IF was yushiro ******* up nakime's mind not muzan vs yushiro. So do you think one-directional multiple pillars are hard or not hard but not as easy either? Cause I'm in favor of the latter. Not really, Dodge one and dodge the other, If you jump you dodge both, If you go right you dodge both, if you go left you dodge both and if you go below them you dodge both, Not really a situation where you have to dodge both in two different times. Not really you just need to outspeed the pillars which obanai and mitsuri should easily be able to do. Yeah the pillars mobile and all but nakime should be able to overwhelm at least mitsuri or obanai individually with the sheer numbers of the pillars she can use and how creative she can get. They know what she can do but they don't know what nakime can do with what she can do (Basically they know the basic stuff but they dont know every possible combination nakime can use with the pillars). Nakime has more tricks up her sleeve and the times mitsuri got surprised was with basic stuff like nakime delfecting her attacks with what seems to be a window and then nakime using a pillar to ram onto her, I'd say her surprise comes from the fact that nakime's BDA is unorthodox and kinda weird/unique, A surprise attack is a different thing

The timing seems a bit weird for that since Yushiro had already hijacked Nakime's sight at that point and nothing in the Infinity Fortress was getting out of control before Muzan noticed. It's indeed not that much harder but I do imagine that Nakime could make it hard depending on when and how she does it. Do you mean overwhelm in the sense of landing a hit? I'm asking since they definitely weren't defeated, Nakime also wasn't solely focusing on either Mitsuri or Obanai since both of them were subject to her attacks and she needed to defend herself, she even attacked Muichiro while her fight against Mitsuri and Obanai was going on. I do agree that Nakime can surprise them and that it is rather unique though with Kyogai she isn't the only demon with a Blood Demon Art manipulating a location. Nakime did deflect an attack from Mitsuri with a window though that was when she rushed in and didn't know what Nakime was capable of yet. After Mitsuri roughly figured it out and actually dodged the window deflection while attacking Nakime this time, Nakime opened a window that led Mitsuri to another nearby location which is a trick Nakime hadn't pulled yet in the fight at that point and then she proceeded to pull the entire platform she was on up when Obanai attacked.

 

[Razor]

The timing seems a bit weird for that since Yushiro had already hijacked Nakime's sight at that point and nothing in the Infinity Fortress was getting out of control before Muzan noticed. It's indeed not that much harder but I do imagine that Nakime could make it hard depending on when and how she does it. Do you mean overwhelm in the sense of landing a hit? I'm asking since they definitely weren't defeated, Nakime also wasn't solely focusing on either Mitsuri or Obanai since both of them were subject to her attacks and she needs to defend herself, she even attacked Muichiro while her fight against Mitsuri and Obanai was going on. I do agree that Nakime can surprise them and that it is rather unique though with Kyogai she isn't the only demon with a Blood Demon Art manipulating a location. Nakime did deflect an attack from Mitsuri with a window though that was when she rushed in and didn't know what Nakime was capable of yet. After Mitsuri figured it out and actually dodged the window deflection while attacking Nakime this time Nakime opened a window that led Mitsuri to another nearby location which is a trick Nakime hadn't pulled yet in that fight and then she proceeded to pull the entire platform she was on up when Obanai attacked.

What probs happened was Yushiro hijacked nakime - IF starts going crazy cause of yushiro - Muzan noticed - IF gets even crazier. Yeah if she gets creative enough she can land a hit most likely. Yes, Overwhelm with pillars to the point where they'll get hit no matter where they dodge OR they wouldn't be able to dodge fast enough. We don't really know who was gonna be the victor of that fight had yushiro not hijacked nakime's mind so I don't think them not losing is a valid point considering the fight was interrupted. Nakime being able to attack muichiro just shows she wasn't getting overwhelmed in the fight and that she can focus on both defense and offense, If she had to focus on defense then how was she able to attack muichiro? Obanai and mitsuri weren't aggressive either, In fact I'd say nakime was being more aggressive and offensive than them. Kyogai seems to be a special case either since he was a past kizuki, We've seen two characters that can manipulate a location with their BDA and both of them happened to be a kizuki. She didn't know what nakime was capable of but she still wasn't able to react in time and this isn't the only time nakime was able to deflect an attack from mitsuri, This is what I mean, Nakime most likely got a ton of tricks up her sleeves considering she had this BDA for a long time which would lead to mitsuri and obanai most likely getting hit a few times in their fight which lasted a long time, The kokushibo fight was very long and the nakime fight was longer than that (since its started before it and ended after it)