[Demon Slayer] Doma's Physicals

[Nehz_XZX]

That statement seems so hyperbolic

“Summon hundreds of times your strength" is deadass just "above all, plus ultra"

Wasn't Tanjiro already cutting into Gyutaro's neck regularly with a regular ass basic ass no mark ass hinokami kagura? 100x would've made him slice through it like butter, which he still didn't do.

It makes very little sense for it to be a legitimate 100x difference when the fool was already able to wound him prior to the injuries gained and stamina lost

It should be noted that Tanjiro is still portrayed as much weaker than the Pillars in his base, so him being anywhere near close to Gyutaro in terms of strength doesn't make much sense. My links from the thread SeijiSetto linked in the OP can help with gaining more information about past discussions regarding the topic of the multiplier.

 

[chosen]

makes very little sense for it to be a legitimate 100x difference when the fool was already able to wound him prior to the injuries gained and stamina lost

I don't Think he managed to ever go for the neck before the injuries Just legs and arm. Might be wrong tho

 

[Passersby]

That statement seems so hyperbolic

“Summon hundreds of times your strength" is deadass just "above all, plus ultra"

Wasn't Tanjiro already cutting into Gyutaro's neck regularly with a regular ass basic ass no mark ass hinokami kagura? 100x would've made him slice through it like butter, which he still didn't do.

It makes very little sense for it to be a legitimate 100x difference when the fool was already able to wound him prior to the injuries gained and stamina lost

...yeah, first of all, the hinokami isn't "basic" by any stretch of the word, the single fact that using it allowed him to at least slash several dozen of rui's reinforced threads with 0 decrease in momentum when prior to that he couldn't slash trough a single regular web unless he used the strongest water form breath amp available to him (which in itself also wasn't strong enough to allow him to cut a single one of the reinfored threads) speak volumes on it's own

second of all i have been literally talking about why this makes sens for the better part of the entire god damn thread

it's a random mark that makes you die at 25 while giving you a strenght boost, the way he used his strenght really doesnt' matter when with the way shearing mechanics work, his sword was able to cut through a significantly larger surface area which would have resulted in a proportionate increase to shear force compared to his earlier strike, since the former is measured as F/A, in order to overcome the shaer stenght of gyutaro's neck he would need to apply a sufficient force over that area to match or exceed the shear strength with shear stress, for exmple If you cut an area A1 with a of force F1, then to cut an area A2, you would need minimum force F2 = A2 * F1 / A1, because F2 / A2 = F1 / A1 = shear strength. If A2 is larger than A1, then F2 is larger than F1, his strike while unclocking the slayer is several orders of magnitudes higher than what it is without it considering he couldn't shear even a single inch into gyutaro's neck

if tanjiro for example was only able to cut trough, say, 1cm^2 while putting in maximum effort, then unlocks the mark, and shears trough 100cm^2 of the same material, that would be about 100 times more force than his previous strike, and that's without even considering that the distance of applied force would be multiple times longer, so the energy needed to do that is the force x the distance of applied force, aka several orders of magnitudes worth
how strong gyutaro is really doesn't matter (tanjiro objectively failed to shear trough even an inch of his neck)

well it is my good luck that i found someone who actually did the math, altough she was calculating how much stronger giyu's slash is compared to tanjiro's when he cut trough rui's neck in the first season like it wasn't even there so at least i won't have to explain this again for the umpteenth time and i now have some tangible stuff to work with, but i guess i should find the time to re learn trigonometry and make the calcs myself

Tanjiro's blade cuts in at best maybe half a centimeter into Rui's neck. Now, I'd say that Rui is a child maybe in the 10-15 years old range, and here's a list of neck circumferences based on age. So let's assume that Rui's neck is the smallest at a circumference for 10 inches, which translates to 25.4 cm. Dividing by 2π (since 2πr is the circumference), we get a radius of about 4.04 cm. If Tanjiro's blade cut in one centimeter, you can then draw a chord through the circle that's one centimeter from the edge of the neck.

So if we draw radii to the two points where the chord touches the circle, we get a triangle with a 3.54 cm height and two sides of 4.04 cm. Then we can calculate from there the chord length by drawing the radius down the center of the triangle to create two congruent right triangles, and then apply the Pythagorean theorem. (4.04 cm)^2 - (3.54 cm)^2 = (0.5*(chord length))^2. Chord length comes out to about 3.9 cm. (Already we can see that 0.5 cm is a vast overestimation because Tanjiro doesn't cut so deeply into Rui's neck that the cut's length is nearly that of the radius of Rui's neck, but let's keep going and say that the end result is a low end.)

So the total triangle area is half the base multiplied by the height, so about 6.89 cm^2. The arc created by the radii involves trigonometry, but the short of it is that we can take the arcsin of half of 3.9 cm divided by the radius of 4.04 cm to get half of the arc's angle, and then double it to get the total arc's angle, and then use the angle to determine the fraction of the circle. The arc comes out to around 57.6 degrees, and using the radius we can determine that the area of the arc is 8.21 cm^2.

Subtracting the triangle from the arc to get the area of the section cut by Tanjiro, we get that he cut about 1.32 cm^2. The total area of the neck would be 51.34 cm^2, which is about 39 times that. It would mean that Giyu is striking with at minimum 39 times the force that Tanjiro is cutting.

I pointed out that the energy for shearing is:
W = L*w^2*(shear strength)
You'll notice that "w", which is the thickness of the object, is squared. Let's say that it takes X energy to cut through a block 1 meter thick. The energy it takes to cut through three blocks that are 1 meter thick each is 3X, as expected. The energy it takes to cut through a single block 3 meters thick is 9X, because thickness is squared in the energy process.

All of this is to say that each of Rui's threads being more durable than a boulder means that Tanjiro can hit dozens of times harder than the boulder cut when he cuts through all of them at once. What it does not mean is that he can cut through a boulder that's a dozen times thicker along the axis of the cut.

The other notable thing this tells us is that Giyu cutting through Rui's neck easily, while only 39 times more force, is over 39*4 = 156 (since the distance of applied force would be 4 times longer) times the total energy.

what this implies is even if tanjiro during the rui fight managed to get a mark and output 100 times more energy while using the hinokami kagura then even by conservative estimates he still wouldn't be able to cut trough rui's neck at all

 

[FelpeXDopZ]

Wasn't Tanjiro already cutting into Gyutaro's neck regularly with a regular ass basic ass no mark ass hinokami kagura?

At that moment Gyutaro's body was weakened because of the poison.

100x would've made him slice through it like butter, which he still didn't do.

The manga and anime aren't really explicit about this, but as soon as Tanjiro activated his slayer mark he instantaneously cut beyond half way, plus time was clearly dilated during that scene as everything happened before Tanjiro fell to the ground and even before Gyutaro could regenerate a single arm, which high-tier demons can do in a split second. There's also the fact that Tanjiro was swinging his sword in the middle of the air, so he had absolutely no grounding to push off from. As I see it, everything suggest he became way stronger thanks to the slayer mark, and a 100x multiplier doesn't sounds crazy at all.

It makes very little sense for it to be a legitimate 100x difference when the fool was already able to wound him prior to the injuries gained and stamina lost

This only happened once when Tanjiro cut his hands off by combining water breathing an hi no kami kagura. Let's not forget that Demon's necks are way more durable than the rest of their bodies, this is noted on their profiles iirc, so there is nothing odd about this. Not to mention at that time Tanjiro was in a better shape than by the end of the battle.

 

[FelpeXDopZ]

Regarding the original OP, there doesn’t seem to be any rule which states there must exist an UES in the verse so that creation feats scale physical abilities. At most one could argue that demons wouldn’t automatically have their striking strength and durability scaled to their BDAs, but their AP would remain untouched since said characters use their BDAs as their main source of attacks.
In addition, those characters that can somehow rival BDAs physical attacks through sheer strength (like some demon slayers) will still physically scale the energy output of said attacks.

 

[SeijiSetto]

Regarding the original OP, there doesn’t seem to be any rule which states there must exist an UES in the verse so that creation feats scale physical abilities.

to quote the page that I linked in the OP:

In order to apply to a character's capacity to harm other characters, that is their usual Attack Potency, their Creation has to be connected to their other abilities. Often that is due to a common power system, in which the same energy used for creation is used for attacks. For example, it can be reasoned that a mage which expends mana from its energy pool to make a city and then channels a similar or greater amount of mana into another attack can scale to its creation feat.

power system, "same energy", etc. it's describing a UES where your supernatural stuff and your physicals scale to each other.

to quote THAT page:

Universal Energy System: Universal Energy Systems (alternatively called a Universal Power System or a Connective Energy System) are systems in which a feat, whether it is one of physical statistics (Striking Strength or Durability) or of supernatural powers (e.g. energy beams), would also scale to all other statistics.

you have to prove that Doma can punch with the same energy he uses to make ice sculptures, as I've said to YOU specifically like (twice) (already) and also literally in the OP.

 

[Passersby]

to quote THAT page:

you have to prove that Doma can punch with the same energy he uses to make ice sculptures

does this not suffice?

if all there was to UES is having the same energy pool powering up both physicals stats and esoteric arts with the showings of tengen physically deflecting blood blades and then contending with gyutaro on an equal level why the hell did this get to 3 pages and why is everyone even agreeing?

am i missing something here?

said energy source (muzan's blood) that strenghtened you also powers just about everything else, regeneration immortality and your esoteric attacks, it's the pool where everything comes from, if the output of the esoteric stuff was stronger than their physical stats they would just spam those and keep a distance since any demon slayer who can block them is guaranteed to fold them like a twig and if it was weaker then it would be useless unless it's some overpowered bullshit like doma's bda and even then that's a postive here since they would upscale from that

tengen is a prime example for all of this, he could block the blood blades and equally contend with gyutaro on a physical stats basis, aka, the output of both gyutaro's blood blades and his physical strikes is comparable

 

[FelpeXDopZ]

power system, "same energy", etc. it's describing a UES where your supernatural stuff and your physicals scale to each other.

As I already said, the Creation Feats page says nothing about UESs, nor it says that abilities must be connected through one so they scale physicals. If that was the intended message, they'd just have called it an UES instead of "common power system" (which are not the same thing) and leave a link to the UES page as they do on every other page that relates 2 or more different topics.
A Common Power System isn't necessarily the same as an UES, this might be a power system that can be unique to one single or a very few characters in the verse, like psychical powers, alien energy, mana, etc.

to quote THAT page:

Again, the UES page says nothing about that different abilities must be connected through an UES so that they scale physicals. Of course, an UES would automatically allow you to scale physical stats, but it's not the only way to do that, that’s why I’ve been saying it isn’t a must.

you have to prove that Doma can punch with the same energy he uses to make ice sculptures, as I've said to YOU specifically like (twice) (already) and also literally in the OP.

I've already replied this here and here. Although this doesn't have anything to do with my last reply.


I know I'm repeating myself, but those demons who scale to Doma's feat will still have their AP untouched, and the characters who can rival physical BDAs attacks still scale physically.

 

[SunDaGamer]

Post-Hashira Training Tanjiro: 1.432 tons (8-C)
Post-Sun Breathing Mastery/Demon Form Tanjiro: 2 tons (High 8-C)

I'm not sure we can upscale from a x1.4 gap like this, from what I've seen even a scaling chain involving multiple one-shots isn't enough to close a gap this big to the next tier at

 

[CloverDragon03]

I'm not sure we can upscale from a x1.4 gap like this, from what I've seen even a scaling chain involving multiple one-shots isn't enough to close the gap the the next tier

That’s not really the case and I think instances like what you’re saying fall under cases of an unnecessary level of scrutiny

 

[BadSystems]

well it is my good luck that i found someone who actually did the math, altough she was calculating how much stronger giyu's slash is compared to tanjiro's when he cut trough rui's neck in the first season like it wasn't even there so at least i won't have to explain this again for the umpteenth time

Examples of calc-stacking that can not be applied​

• Character A has a certain attack potency through a calculation. They made a 1mm dent in character B's shield composed of a fictional material. But character C destroyed the whole 30mm thick shield, so character C is thirty times as strong as character A.

 

[Small_Ophion]

Agreed, there is no reason to scale it to physicals.

 

[SunDaGamer]

As I already said, the Creation Feats page says nothing about UESs, nor it says that abilities must be connected through one so they scale physicals. If that was the intended message, they'd just have called it an UES instead of "common power system" (which are not the same thing) and leave a link to the UES page as they do on every other page that relates 2 or more different topics.
A Common Power System isn't necessarily the same as an UES, this might be a power system that can be unique to one single or a very few characters in the verse, like psychical powers, alien energy, mana, etc.

This is just semantics, the creation feats page says "common power system" instead of "universal energy system" because it was written a year before the Universal Energy Systems page was made, I'll request it to be clarified so arguments like this don't pop up again. We could argue that verses with power systems that aren't even related to energy like devil contracts should have creation feats scaling to physical AP with this line of thinking. Doma's 8-B+ calc comes from calcing the energy required to lower the temperature to freezing which has no reason to scale to the physical attacks of any of his ice sculptures without a UES. Like it could take 7-B levels of energy to create a human, doesn't mean the human's AP is 7-B now.

 

[Passersby]

Examples of calc-stacking that can not be applied​

• Character A has a certain attack potency through a calculation. They made a 1mm dent in character B's shield composed of a fictional material. But character C destroyed the whole 30mm thick shield, so character C is thirty times as strong as character A.

leaving behind the fact that "Destroy" is such a broad term to use when refering to material deformations, there are some tiny little issues you guys miserably failed to see

1 i give 0 f*cks about that, i wasn't trying to push for the calc and multiplier to be implemented, i was correcting the notion that tanjiro managing to output 100 times the energy would somehow instantly allow him to shear trough gyutaro's neck like a hot knife trough butter jsut because prior h could cut like half cm into it

2 the rules don't dictate the physics, unless you can quantifiably demonstrate why i'm wrong then you might as well shut up about it because you can argue it's a hyperbole all you want, the fact that him needing 100 times the energy to shear trough gyutaro's neck makes sens doesn't wouldn't change




and doma scales herre because of this i guess

said energy source (muzan's blood) that strenghtened you also powers just about everything else, regeneration immortality and your esoteric attacks, it's the pool where everything comes from, if the output of the esoteric stuff was stronger than their physical stats they would just spam those and keep a distance since any demon slayer who can block them is guaranteed to fold them like a twig and if it was weaker then it would be useless unless it's some overpowered bullshit like doma's bda and even then that's a postive here since they would upscale from that

tengen is a prime example for all of this, he could block the blood blades and equally contend with gyutaro on a physical stats basis, aka, the output of both gyutaro's blood blades and his physical strikes is comparable

anything wrong here?

 

[BadSystems]

what this implies is even if tanjiro during the rui fight managed to get a mark and output 100 times more energy while using the hinokami kagura then even by conservative estimates he still wouldn't be able to cut trough rui's neck at all

He kind of would, tho. Giyu is slicing off Ryu's neck with absolute ease which takes (allegedly) "159 times more force." A 100x amp should allow you to cut something with just a tad bit more difficulty lol.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

anything wrong here?

Everything

 

[BadSystems]

anything wrong here?

Yes. Just because certain BDA are comparable to physicals means nothing. Prove that the Ice Statue creation specifically can be compared to physicals or just don't bother.

 

[SeijiSetto]

[...]

[...]

Okay.
Your disagreement has been noted.
Anyway,

What's left to do here before things are closed? The 100x multiplier still hasn't been officially accepted, and after 5 whole pages of this it'd probably be easier and neater to tackle in a new thread.

[revised scaling snip]

Does this work?

 

[Passersby]

ok jesus christ 4 at once

He kind of would, tho. Giyu is slicing off Ryu's neck with absolute ease which takes (allegedly) "159 times more force." A 100x amp should allow you to cut something with just a tad bit more difficulty lol.

...no, that's the minimum force required to shear trough the entire neck, it he could output about 158 times the energy he wouldn't be able to shear trough the entire neck (altough he will cut most of it) the fact that he can do it with ease just implies he can output far more than 159 times tanjiro's own energy output

Everything

elaborate?

Yes. Just because certain BDA are comparable to physicals means nothing. Prove that the Ice Statue creation specifically can be compared to physicals or just don't bother.

elaborate why doma's blood demon art would have a different mechanism of operation than gyutaro or any other random demon, if you think it's different then you're more than welcome to prove it is


altough seeing that my stuff is just being ignored and there nothing to actually address here, i will just leave

 

[BadSystems]

...no, that's the minimum force required to shear trough the entire neck, it he could output about 158 times the energy he wouldn't be able to shear trough the entire neck (altough he will cut most of it) the fact that he can do it with ease just implies he can output far more than 159 times tanjiro's own energy output

That's calc stacking anyway. "Ryu's neck is 159 times > Tanjiro's swing because of how deep it cut." is the third example reworded.

elaborate why doma's blood demon art would have a different mechanism of operation than gyutaro or any other random demon, if you think it's different then you're more than welcome to prove it is


altough seeing that my stuff is just being ignored and there nothing to actually address here, i will just leave

As the fabled Blood UES doesn't exist, you have to prove why it scales to physicals to begin with. The burden of proof is on you.

 

[Passersby]

That's calc stacking anyway. "Ryu's neck is 159 times > Tanjiro's swing because of how deep it cut." is the third example reworded.

it's called physics, scroll up and you will find out why it is
and as i said, i have never tried to implement it

As the fabled Blood UES doesn't exist, you have to prove why it scales to physicals to begin with. The burden of proof is on you.

...no, i don't think you're following your own arguments here, you said

Yes. Just because certain BDA are comparable to physicals means nothing. Prove that the Ice Statue creation specifically can be compared to physicals or just don't bother.

i asked you to prove that certain blood demon arts like gyutaro's do scale and the rest doesn't since they all function based on the same mecahnism that you somehow forgot about immediately, which is their blood

you also failed to address any of the point mentioned in my prior points nor demonstrate why i'm wrong in any way shape or form, you just said i was and got done with it

said energy source (muzan's blood) that strenghtened you also powers just about everything else, regeneration immortality and your esoteric attacks, it's the pool where everything comes from, if the output of the esoteric stuff was stronger than their physical stats they would just spam those and keep a distance since any demon slayer who can block them is guaranteed to fold them like a twig and if it was weaker then it would be useless unless it's some overpowered bullshit like doma's bda and even then that's a postive here since they would upscale from that

tengen is a prime example for all of this, he could block the blood blades and equally contend with gyutaro on a physical stats basis, aka, the output of both gyutaro's blood blades and his physical strikes is comparable

 

[BadSystems]

I asked you to prove that certain blood demon arts like gyutaro's do scale and the rest doesn't since they all function based on the same mecahnism that you somehow forgot about immediately, which is their blood

???
Both using blood from Muzan means absolutely nothing. You are just typing sentences and drawing conclusions that are completely unrelated. Gyutaro's blood slashes scale because they are parried. The energy required to create the Ice Sculpture does not scale because there's just no reason to. There's nothing to argue against because you haven't substantiated the claim, it's pure vibes.

In fact, the creation feat doesn't even scale to ANY KIND OF AP. The statue attack itself does not scale to the energy required to create it.

Double in fact: Demons don't even consume their blood as energy. This entire argument is completely unfounded. I imagine the CRT to get this added went something like this.

posts VSB blog

"yeah"
"agree FRB OP cooked"

 

[BadSystems]

GN for now.

 

[Passersby]

Both using blood from Muzan means absolutely nothing.

explain why that's the case

You are just typing sentences and drawing conclusions that are completely unrelated

demonstrate that they are as such then, stating random unsubtantiated bullshit about my conlusions and arguments won't make them wrong just because you said and think they are

Gyutaro's blood slashes scale because they are parried.

you're showing a complete lack of reading comprehension, i used gyutaro as an example because they got parried which serves as an example to all blood demon arts because they operate under the same mechanism of being powered by blood, if you think his bda is different from the rest then demonstrate and prove why it is to all of us so i can be done with this and concede

The energy required to create the Ice Sculpture does not scale because there's just no reason to.

demonstrate and prove why there is no reason to, with actual logic and arguments and not random unsubstantiated statements that pretty much ammount to nuh uh they don't because i said so

There's nothing to argue against because you haven't substantiated the claim

i have nothing to substantiate anymore when i've already given plenty enoug logic evidence and arguments while all your post ammounts is nuh uh they don't

why don't you actually try and find the flaw in my logic?

right here

said energy source (muzan's blood) that strenghtened you also powers just about everything else, regeneration immortality and your esoteric attacks, it's the pool where everything comes from, if the output of the esoteric stuff was stronger than their physical stats they would just spam those and keep a distance since any demon slayer who can block them is guaranteed to fold them like a twig and if it was weaker then it would be useless unless it's some overpowered bullshit like doma's bda and even then that's a postive here since they would upscale from that

tengen is a prime example for all of this, he could block the blood blades and equally contend with gyutaro on a physical stats basis, aka, the output of both gyutaro's blood blades and his physical strikes is comparable

these are literally about 4 lines, explain why any of this is objectively wrong

 

[BadSystems]

you’re showing a complete lack of reading comprehension, i used gyutaro as an example because they got parried which serves as an example to all blood demon arts because they operate under the same mechanism of being powered by blood, if you think his bda is different from the rest then demonstrate and prove why it is to all of us so i can be done with this and concede

I really should sleep.

First; womp womp on reading comprehension.

Secondly, this is all just a hasty generalization. “Gyutaro’s BDA can be parried physically. It is called a BDA, like other BDAs. Thus, they can all be parried physically!!!”

You haven’t proven blood is an “energy source” to begin with kek. They don’t use “blood” to power up their physical attacks, they just get a static increase in strength from the blood they are given by Muzan. Hell, a BDA doesn’t even necessarily use the user’s blood to attack. The idiot with drums, the dude who uses fish and water and pots, the guy who summons lightning.

Attacks don’t use blood as fuel? Not an energy system.

I say we end this back and forth and just wait for evaluation because you will probably not change your mind.

 

[Passersby]

Secondly, this is all just a hasty generalization. “Gyutaro’s BDA can be parried physically. It is called a BDA, like other BDAs. Thus, they can all be parried physically!!!”

...are you arguing with the wall, mid air, or someone else?

or are you making a straw man on purpose?


1 muzan's blood that strenghtens and also powers just about everything else, regeneration immortality and your esoteric attacks, it's the pool where everything comes from

2 if the output of the esoteric stuff was stronger than their physical stats they would just spam those and keep a distance since any demon slayer who can block them is guaranteed to fold them like a twig and if it was weaker then it would be useless unless it's some overpowered bullshit like doma's bda and even then that's a postive here since they would upscale from that

that's it, stop straw manning, stop wiggling out of it, actually objectively demonstrate why this is faulty

You haven’t proven blood is an “energy source” to begin with kek.

...it makes demons physically stronger the more they consume of it, and they use it to power blood demon arts, what do you call that then?

They don’t use “blood” to power up their physical attacks, they just get a static increase in strength from the blood they are given by Muzan

yes, and if they get more, they get a permant stat boost, the blood itself, gives them their superhuman physical strenght, and it's also what they use to power and activate their esoteric arts

Hell, a BDA doesn’t even necessarily use the user’s blood to attack.

it always does, just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there, that's demonstrabely false, kokushibo explicitly stated his BDA can't activate because the trunk was actively absorbing his blood nezuko uses her blood, tamayo does, her servant is the same gyutaro does, and kokushibo actively showed us how a lack of blood supply renders blood demon techniques useless as they wouldn't be unleashed, just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen, it's literal object permanance

unless you can prove that the other blood demon arts are different and function on a different mechanism that somehow isn't reliant on blood which is a demon's whole shtick concede your point

i can't bleive i'm actually arguing this

 

[Ped2018]

Jesus, can someone open a new thread for the multiplier?

Doma's feat ain't scaling to physicals and that's final.

 

[Robespierre_Isidore]

my efforts were in vain.......

Honestly, Passerby, I personally loved the back and forth. It gave me a lot to think about and showed me spots I can improve on too.
I appreciate your contribution to the dialogue with SunDaGamer and myself. I think despite not winning the mods over nor most of the people on the thread you did a fantastic job with what you gave. I hope to learn from other threads you join. You have my respect for sticking through with it.

 

[FelpeXDopZ]

This is just semantics, the creation feats page says "common power system" instead of "universal energy system" because it was written a year before the Universal Energy Systems page was made, I'll request it to be clarified so arguments like this don't pop up again. We could argue that verses with power systems that aren't even related to energy like devil contracts should have creation feats scaling to physical AP with this line of thinking.

Nope, as I already explained to Seiji, the Creation Feats page simply doesn't state anything about UESs, that's a mere fact which isn't subjected to personal interpretations. If it had anything to do with UESs, they'd simply have linked the page, that's all, even if the UES page was created 10 years after the Creation Feats Page, they would simply have updated the later. And a Common Power System just isn't the same as an UES, as I said before, a Power System may be unique to a few characters, whereas an UES means that everyone or most characters in the verse already possess the ability to manipulate such energy or could eventually be able to do so.

Doma's 8-B+ calc comes from calcing the energy required to lower the temperature to freezing which has no reason to scale to the physical attacks of any of his ice sculptures without a UES.

I kind of agree on the feat not directly scaling physical stats, but I don't see why his other techniques, which are literally born from the same power system (his BDA), wouldn't scale to the ice sculpture feat, there is no UES needed for this whatsoever.

Like it could take 7-B levels of energy to create a human, doesn't mean the human's AP is 7-B now.

Uh, this kind of makes no sense and it's unrelated to the main argument, so I'll just ignore it.


BDAs look more like a Non-physical Energy System, as it fulfills the criteria just fine. So, like the original OP says, Doma’s feat may not scale physical stats, but there is no actual reason to believe it doesn’t scale AP. And because BDAs could be considered to be a Non-physical Energy System, then the rest of Doma's abilities scale to the ice sculpture feat without any problems.

 

[Passersby]

Honestly, Passerby, I personally loved the back and forth. It gave me a lot to think about and showed me spots I can improve on too.
I appreciate your contribution to the dialogue with SunDaGamer and myself. I think despite not winning the mods over nor most of the people on the thread you did a fantastic job with what you gave. I hope to learn from other threads you join. You have my respect for sticking through with it.

....my efforts were not in vain

uhh, thank you, like really, that was sweet

 

[Robespierre_Isidore]

If the multiplier's getting axed (which I feel it should be given the apparent contradictions), this is my proposition for Demon Slayer's scaling, using Tanjiro as a reference:

Post-Demon Slayer Training Tanjiro: 0.006 tons, 0.008 tons with Hinokami Kagura (9-A, higher with Hinokami Kagura)
Post-Rehabilitation Training Tanjiro: 0.358 tons, higher with the Demon Slayer Mark (8-C, higher with the Demon Slayer Mark)
Post-Type Zero Training Tanjiro: 0.358 tons, 1.432 tons with the Demon Slayer Mark (8-C, higher with the Demon Slayer Mark)
Post-Hashira Training Tanjiro: 1.432 tons (8-C)
Post-Sun Breathing Mastery/Demon Form Tanjiro: 2 tons (High 8-C)

Note: The 1.432 ton characters would be Building level+. In addition, High 8-C comes from Muzan upscaling far above the Upper Moons.

Despite the efforts of some of us to say no to it, I think most of us would agree with that. I know I do.

Does this work?

Yes, it works for me.

my efforts were not in vain

If I learn nothing from a conversation, I likely wasn't paying attention, however you mentioned material sciences which is a LOT of fun to use in scaling imo which led me to do some reading and learning on parts I hadn't thought of previously. I still disagree with the premise which leads to your conclusion about the AP durability all that, but I don't mind discussing it to see where and how you get to the end point. Doing so helps me become better and should help others become better too. You've done well to spark my interest in the subject further, so thank you again. I hope my mention of detonation in the speed CRT inspired you too to investigate further applications of the sciences for powerscaling.

 

[chosen]

So uhh will multiplier be handled in different threads or not

 

[GunshyFever]

If the multiplier's getting axed (which I feel it should be given the apparent contradictions), this is my proposition for Demon Slayer's scaling, using Tanjiro as a reference:

Post-Demon Slayer Training Tanjiro: 0.006 tons, 0.008 tons with Hinokami Kagura (9-A, higher with Hinokami Kagura)
Post-Rehabilitation Training Tanjiro: 0.358 tons, higher with the Demon Slayer Mark (8-C, higher with the Demon Slayer Mark)
Post-Type Zero Training Tanjiro: 0.358 tons, 1.432 tons with the Demon Slayer Mark (8-C, higher with the Demon Slayer Mark)
Post-Hashira Training Tanjiro: 1.432 tons (8-C)
Post-Sun Breathing Mastery/Demon Form Tanjiro: 2 tons (High 8-C)

Note: The 1.432 ton characters would be Building level+. In addition, High 8-C comes from Muzan upscaling far above the Upper Moons.

I agree with this new line of scaling

 

[GunshyFever]

So uhh will multiplier be handled in different threads or not

I believe changes should be applied regarding the new line of scaling, and because of the current issues with the multiplier I do agree that it should be discussed in a separate thread

 

[SunDaGamer]

Post-Type Zero Training Tanjiro: 0.358 tons, 1.432 tons with the Demon Slayer Mark (8-C, higher with the Demon Slayer Mark)

Swordsmith Village Arc Tanjiro doesn't have scaling to Zohakuten so his Demon Slayer Mark amp is an unquantifiable one that puts him above Hantengu's Emotion clones when they're individuals but Post-Hashira Training Tanjiro should scale to Mitsuri and the other Hashira so his 1.432 ton scaling in the Post-Hashira Training key should be fine

 

[BadSystems]

BDAs look more like a Non-physical Energy System, as it fulfills the criteria just fine. So, like the original OP says, Doma’s feat may not scale physical stats, but there is no actual reason to believe it doesn’t scale AP. And because BDAs could be considered to be a Non-physical Energy System, then the rest of Doma's abilities scale to the ice sculpture feat without any problems.

BDA can scale to each other or whatever, it’s just that the creation of the Ice Sculpture is unrelated to AP. However much damage the sculpture can do can scale to whoever is above it, sure, but creation is unrelated.

Also, I’m not quoting the Passerby post, but the guy who shoots blood slashes not being able to shoot blood slashes because he’s losing blood may be unrelated to:

• Every other BDA which is not activated using blood.
• ice magic in particular

...it makes demons physically stronger the more they consume of it, and they use it to power blood demon arts, what do you call that then?

Not an energy system. Anything that permanently amps you + bestows power is not necessarily any kind of energy system. The blood shenanigans sounds like a Limited Energy System if anything.

 

[FelpeXDopZ]

BDA can scale to each other or whatever, it’s just that the creation of the Ice Sculpture is unrelated to AP. However much damage the sculpture can do can scale to whoever is above it, sure, but creation is unrelated.

How is it unrelated to AP? Creating the ice sculpture requires a determined amount of energy, and Doma is able to release that energy through his BDA, he then uses his BDA to attack his enemies, therefore these attacks scale the ice sculpture feat, because they are being powered by the same power system, his BDA. Accordingly, characters like Kokushibo and Muzan will also have their AP scaled from Doma's feat.
And this is perfectly in line with the requirements in the Creation Feats page and the definition of a Non-physical Energy system. Quoting the first:

In order to apply to a character's capacity to harm other characters, that is their usual Attack Potency, their Creation has to be connected to their other abilities. Often that is due to a common power system, in which the same energy used for creation is used for attacks. For example, it can be reasoned that a mage which expends mana from its energy pool to make a city and then channels a similar or greater amount of mana into another attack can scale to its creation feat.

Doma's BDA is the connection between the ice sculpture and the rest of his abilities, so there are no contradictions here whatsoever.

Quoting the definition of a Non-physical Energy System:

A Non-physical Energy System is one where supernatural or other feats, that are not based on the characters' body strengths, do not scale to physical statistics, but still scale to all other applications of non-physical powers the character may have. That means if such a character for instance demonstrates a Building level fireball spell, they would not automatically be assumed to have Building level Striking Strength or Durability. However, if they have other spells, like for example water blades, they would be assumed to be able to output similar attack power with those spells.

No contradictions at all again.

 

[BadSystems]

snip

The NPES section talks about expending "mana" from someone's energy pool. Blood Demon Art does not have any "mana" equivalent, so it's not applicable.

There also is no proof to begin with that Doma creating the ice is even related to his attacks. Passerby said something about "oh, if they didn't scale, then any Demon Slayer that could block their attacks could one-shot them." The ice creation, and ice attacks, are simply two separate things.

 

[SunDaGamer]

The NPES section talks about expending "mana" from someone's energy pool. Blood Demon Art does not have any "mana" equivalent, so it's not applicable.

There also is no proof to begin with that Doma creating the ice is even related to his attacks. Passerby said something about "oh, if they didn't scale, then any Demon Slayer that could block their attacks could one-shot them." The ice creation, and ice attacks, are simply two separate things.

Yeah, something taking a set amount of energy to create doesn't mean said thing attacks with that level of energy nor does it mean their durability scales to it unless we're explicitly told so or UES is involved

 

[FelpeXDopZ]

The NPES section talks about expending "mana" from someone's energy pool. Blood Demon Art does not have any "mana" equivalent, so it's not applicable.

The mana thing is just an example, the actual important part is that Doma's abilities are connected and powered by a common power system, which is his BDA, this is simply a fact, so it meets the requirements on the Creation Feat page.

There also is no proof to begin with that Doma creating the ice is even related to his attacks.

Why wouldn't they be connected if they're literally being powered by a common energy system? In fact, when Doma created his ice sculpture it was explicitly stated that he still had a lot of strength left, and Doma himself said his clones' abilities were as powerful as his own.

Passerby said something about "oh, if they didn't scale, then any Demon Slayer that could block their attacks could one-shot them."

Then the demons durability just scale to the energy output of their BDAs, with some extra steps of course.

The ice creation, and ice attacks, are simply two separate things.

Nope, they're different manifestations of a single power system, Doma's BDA.



On a side note, quirks from MHA are considered to be a Non-physical Energy System, and they’re almost the same as BDAs, each character in the series has a different quirk with different abilities, and DS demons are pretty much the same, every demon possess a different BDA with different abilities. Although BDAs are likely closer to an UES than quirks, since they have a fairly common origin, which is Muzan’s blood and the same resources (blood) makes them stronger. So, if quirks are a Non-physical Energy System, then BDAs should also be considered as such because of the huge similarity.