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Kimetsu no Yaiba profiles overhaul
- Thread starter Nehz_XZX
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- #42
I already said that quite a bit of it is probably outdated. She's still strong enough to be an Upper Moon to the point where she isn't put at the absolute bottom of the ranking despite there being free positions further up above in the hierarchy like Kaigaku and has the offensive power needed to kill Pillars if the successful deception of Muzan can be trusted for this as evidence. Her ability being a major factor for her being made an Upper Moon is something that I fully agree with though. I'd also like to note that the justification doesn't put her above Hantengu but merely says that she is the replacement for him. Considering that he was dead at that point that doesn't really say that Nakime is stronger than him though it does imply that she might be at his general level which is consistent with her having the Attack Potency needed to potentially kill Mitsuri and Obanai in Muzan's opinion.
Checking on the profiles does reveal some inconsistencies there. Mitsuri's durability rating for her base lacks an "At least" unlike with all of her other ratings and Obanai doesn't have "At least"s despite scaling from Mitsuri. It might also be worth mentioning that Muichiro's speed is rated as "At least Hypersonic+ combat speed with High Hypersonic reactions, likely higher" when Tengen from whom he scales is "At most Massively Hypersonic+ combat speed and reactions".
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I don't recall muzan coming to the conclusion that nakime killed them. plus we don't know if he thought that she killed them by force. She could've just been creative with her BDA and kill them. And her being an upper moon and not at the bottom doesn't really mean she's stronger by AP than the upper moons below her. As I said she was upper moon cause her ability was convenient but we've never seen her fight. If she did have AP and fighting capabilities then she should've whipped them out in her fight with the two slayers no?
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- #44
No, Nakime never killed them. Yushiro tricked Muzan into believing that and Muzan fell for it.
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I know she didn't kill them
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- #46
Okay, that's good. While Nakime's Blood Demon Art isn't of a particularly offensive nature it's still not without its dangers for those dealing with it. It would otherwise not be believable for Muzan who would know a lot about her capabilities that she could kill anyone with it and he should have an idea of how strong Pillars are too unless he severely neglected paying attention to them. Chapter 182 and 183 should help in illustrating that point. In the fake view Yushiro provided in chapter 182 Mitsuri and Obanai were heavily bleeding and injured with visual implications of their lower body halves having been crushed or severed which is a lot more than just creativity here. In chapter 183 Mitsuri had thoughts of possibly dying after being nearly hit by part of the Infinity Fortress while Yushiro and Muzan struggled against each other for their control over Nakime.
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Yes, That was what I was trying to say. Muzan could've just thought nakime killed them in a very creative way with her bda, Maybe once they were falling she could crush them mid-air since she has full control over the IF. Muzan knows how strong pillars are but he also should know the disparity between pillars, a pillar can absolutely fodderize another, Just compare shinobu vs gyomei. so he'd have no reason to accurately gauge these pillar's strength.
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- #48
Severely harming them with an attack inflicting physical trauma would scale to her Attack Potency since merely falling wouldn't actually reduce someone's durability and Nakime doesn't have any way of inflicting damage that would bypass durability that we know of. There is also the fact that the scene with Mitsuri in chapter 183 of her worrying about dying didn't involve any creativity whatsoever from Nakime. It was just her nearly getting hit as a side effect of the struggle over Nakime. I also doubt that Nakime would be Upper Moon 4 if she wasn't at least a formidable foe for Pillars on her own merits considering that the rankings are heavily connected to the strength of the demons. I'd also like to note that regardless of the differences and gaps between individual Pillars that all of them are formidable combatants and that this is a fact Muzan has known of and had to deal with for a seriously long time already.
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I don't remember nakime hitting obanai or mitsuri whatsoever or even attempting to do so. Plus she would just have this AP in the infinity fortress not everywhere, so if she did damage mitsuri and obanai by crushing them while their falling then thats a thing she can only do in the IF. And Like I said with the uppermoon argument, Nakime is a very special case, instead of strength she got chosen because of her ability, this is was also stated in the databooks, that muzan likes her cause her ability is convenient. The series most definitely doesn't present her as a combat type either
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- #50
While she used her Blood Demon Art for mostly evasive and defensive purposes that doesn't change that she can in fact use it to damage people and will presumably do so if she gets the opportunity for that. Anything else wouldn't make sense for a demon fighting for Muzan and whom Muzan apparently viewed as capable of killing Pillars. I'd also like to point out that we do in fact scale the Attack Potency of the Blood Demon Arts of demons to their neck durability like in the cases of Doma and Kyogai.
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Yeah that was my point of her using it creatively, plus theres still the problem of her being only able to do this in the infinity fortress not anywhere else. Plus its not like he was asked or he was thinking about if nakime could kill a pillar, The bodies were literally lying there, why couldn't he just thought that nakime had another trick up her sleeve? Plus it could've been very well a plot hole since the whole mitsuri vs obanai fight nakime not once attempted to attack them, if she did had the potency to harm them why didn't she? The neck point doesn't change anything cause we literally didn't see her neck get destroyed or something, Muzan just killed her. And douma, well we didn't even know how strong his neck really was, when he got beheaded he was poisoned so his durability was down, so wdym we scale douma to his neck?
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- #52
Why would Nakime have any tricks that Muzan wouldn't know of? He had her by his side for a long time and he is straight up capable of reading the thoughts of the demons he created, so there wouldn't be any secrets that could be intentionally hidden from him and I doubt that he wouldn't be interested in knowing the capabilities of his assets. The bodies showed clear signs of heavy damage with the scenery indicating severe blunt force trauma through the moving parts of the fortress. Actually, Nakime does in fact repeatedly attack Mitsuri and Obanai with several pillars from the fortress in Chapter 164. That's in fact how she rams Muichiro towards Kokushibo in that very same chapter.
"While the durability of a Demon’s body is inconsistent and can be hurt by weaker foes, their necks are their most durable body part and can tank attacks from characters who are comparable to their AP. Even while badly poisoned, it took Kanao and Inosuke's combined strength to decapitate him"
This is Doma's durability justification, so his neck durability isn't featless and it also contains the justification for why we scale their neck durability to their Attack Potency. You really should go through the profiles and read them carefully if you don't know about details like that. Have you really not noticed that every demon's neck durability is scaled like that?
ShadowWhoWalks actually brought up in this thread the scans justifying the way we handle the durability of demons on the profiles with there being statements that put emphasis on the toughness of the necks.
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Where did you get that from? Do we even know how long nakime has lived? I'm still more confident in coughing it up as a plot hole instead of muzan outright thinking that nakime could kill them, that wasn't the intention of the author at all. Plus he could've contested it but not said anything, He saw the bodies dead why would he try and think about how or if nakime could kill them? What matters to him is that two pillars are dead and the fight will be easier, if he'll contest or bring it up he'll do it later, not during the biggest fight in the series. And the details of the art is also just PiS, The author just wants to show them dead, not that Nakime killed them with severe blunt force trauma and if she could've done that then again why didn't she? Yeah she did attack muichiro but that was again due to her being in the IF, We can't say she has this amount of AP without the obstacles in the IF being in her control, Plus she never did actual damage to the pillars anyways, her attacks were at best able to stun the hashiras or knock them off balance, she never dealt actual damage
Again, Irrelevant as we never saw nakime's neck. And yes, It is featless.The supporting point for its dura is a statement, in terms of feat the best it did was make an exhausted kanao and inosuke go all out, which is something his neck should be able to tank easily had he not been poisoned. Also dude I just forgot it, I did read the profiles, There's no need to be condescending about a very tiny detail I just forgot about it. Plus its just irrelevant here.
I never made any statements about the toughness of necks what are you even talking about now? Heck I didn't deny that we scale their neck durability to their AP At all, All I ever said about that point was that it was irrelevant to this discussion since were talking about nakime who has no neck feats, And that we don't know how durable douma's neck is outside of the point that their necks can be damaged by comparable characters. Can you show me when I denied that we scale their necks dura to their AP ? Cause I never did that
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Akaza is shown to be familiar with the Infinity Fortress in chapter 97 and none of the Upper Moons question Nakime's presence and how they got summoned in chapter 98 which suggests that they are familiar with her already. Hantengu says that they haven't been summoned for 113 years before the Upper Moon meeting of that particular chapter, so that definitely hints at her being really old. Besides, most of the more powerful demons have generally been around for a longer period of time since they spent that time devouring humans to get stronger which should be applicable to Nakime especially since demons develop Blood Demon Arts only later on after they reached a certain amount of strength. All of the ramming fortress pillars in chapter 164 were dodged by Mitsuri and Obanai and Mitsuri was worried about getting killed by them in chapter 183. That should be enough to establish them as a genuine threat to worry about for the Pillars. Mitsuri and Obanai are each depicted as being in the gap between two of the pilllars that apparently crushed them in chapter 182 which should be very clear visual indicator of the killing method employed here.
You questioned the durability of the necks, so you kind of gave the justification for the neck durability of demons some relevance by needing to get reminded of that. Also, not knowing basic universal facts about the profiles is certainly going to cause people to question your competence or reliability in a debate which would severely hurt your position. As for the "condescension" you've detected from my last post, I'd actually call that frustration over you forgetting facts that I consider to be very basic in regards to the verse but I do realize that it didn't really sound nice and am going to try to approach the situation differently if a situation like that arises again.
You said that Doma's neck durability was featless and I proved you wrong. That's all that happened.
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That doesn't mean nakime has been with muzan for long, That wouldn't even take a year for that scenario to happen. Akaza said that "I've been called here, which means an upper moon got killed by the demon hunters" meaning that they only get summoned if an UM gets killed, how does that indicate nakime is old? Why would that apply to her when we don't even know her strength just her ability, the BDA point is fair but it wouldn't take hundreds of years for that, a few years for a skilled demon should be enough. Mui didn't dodge one of nakime's attacks and had absolutely no sign of any injuries whatsoever, Obanai and mitsuri dodging these attacks is irrelevant, they didn't know how strong they were so they could've just been careful.
I did not? When did I questioned the durability of the necks? All I said was that its irrelevant for nakime and douma's neck durability doesn't have feats to put it above what it should be. Dude, What's up with you? I literally just forgot about it and didn't think about it cause its very irrelevant, What do you mean my competence or reliability in a debate? What? And yes that was very much condescension, if your last post wasn't then this is. Maybe I'd remember it if it was relevant to our discussion right now, but it isn't. I'm perfectly aware that necks can be damaged by people comparable to them. Don't talk about my "competence" and other stuff.
Ig I didn't word it correctly, It has a feat but the feat doesn't make his neck more durable than what it already should be, is basically what I was saying. Anyways its irrelevant here. And thats not all that happpened, You claimed that I said stuff that I never even implied.
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- #56
In that very same chapter Kagaya mentions that an Upper Moon hasn't been killed for a hundred years. That's why Muzan disposed of the Lower Moons but kept the Upper Moons. Enmu mentions as he is dying that the ranks of the Upper Moons haven't changed in centuries. If Nakime's Blood Demon Art is strong enough to potentially kill Pillars, then she is much stronger than any of the Lower Moons who get fodderized by the Pillars which would be consistent with her being able to react fast enough to use her Blood Demon Art to defend herself against the Pillars. Muichiro was only ever attacked by one pillar from Nakime which caught him off-guard as far as I can tell and I presume that the purpose of that instance was to get him to Kokushibo who was evidently already enough to deal with Muichiro. I'd also like to note that Nakime's attacks against Mitsuri and Obanai were crashing against the wall and even the side of a staircase. On the panel in chapter 182 where we see the dead bodies of Mitsuri and Obanai they appear to have been crushed by two respective pillars that rammed into each other.
You said that Nakime and Doma's necks lack feats and then questioned what I meant with Doma scaling to his neck. Combine that with forgetting the justification we generally use for the durability of demons and we have you basically saying that there are no feats for the necks and that Doma shouldn't scale to his neck. I also don't know what you would mean with that the feat doesn't make his neck more durable than it should be. His neck scales to his Attack Potency and nobody here was trying to upgrade it. The point is that such a scaling exists and if Nakime can dish out the Attack Potency to harm Pillars, then we would scale it to her neck durability since Blood Demon Arts are only gained once a demon reaches a certain strength and then grow in strength alongside the demon. The fact that her Blood Demon Art is dependent on the Infinity Fortress would simply make her case similar to Kyogai's.
I brought up competence and reliability because you forgot about a fact that is on all of our demon profiles except the profile I'm talking about in the OP and which should make it clear with its wording that it's supposed to apply to all demons. Even if you are actually anything but incompetent or unreliable and this is an outlier for you, you've still managed to convey a pretty terrible impression with that.
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Alright, Nakime has been there for a hundred years. I concede to that. I still disagree with nakime having the AP to kill obanai and mitsuri given that she actually did attack another hashira and it didn't affect him. I don't see why her being above the lower moons means that she should scale to the pillars, and her reacting to the pillars doesn't mean she's also comparable to them in every way like AP. Yeah and thats the only time we saw nakime attack and land a hit, and it didn't do jack to mui. Yeah, this is why even if she has comparable AP to the pillars or enough to kill them, it'll only be in the IF.
I never said douma's neck was featless, What I was saying is that We don't know how strong douma's neck is at his peak or normally cause when it did get sliced off he was poisoned, and nakime's neck IS featless. Me questioning what you meant when you say we scale douma to his neck is because what I got from it was that ur trying to say we scale his AP at the time it was got sliced, not normally. Basically I thought you were trying to say douma scales to kanao and inosuke and vice versa now because of the neck thing, I wasn't contesting the fact that their necks can be damaged by comparable enemies at all. I know his neck scales to his AP, I just got a misinterpretation of what you said. The problem is, The supporting point for nakime being able to kill pillars are vague as hell. And what does her case being similar to kyogai got to do with anything? We don't have a profile for kyogai as well.
I didn't forget about that, Was just a misinterpretation, Even then was it necessary? No it absolutely wasn't, You could've just told me "Hey you forgot about this" and moved on but you had to bring up something completely irrelevant to the discussion.
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Her being superior to Lower Moons which can get Kinoe rank demon slayers a Pillar promotion when they can defeat them and being able to react timely to the movements of Pillars does show that her Attack Potency shouldn't exactly be low. I'd also like to note that Muzan was able to find out about Nezuko's immunity to the sun and the event revealing that happened at the time of Mitsuri fighting Zohakuten. Well, the force acting on Muichiro was still considerable enough for him to not just get off the pillar even though he clearly had the time to react and move since he could talk to Gyomei and turn to look at the wall. If I can trust the following depiction of the crash, then Muichiro went through a fairly thin wall or door though that might be up to interpretation. It's true that Nakime mainly fights using the Infinity Fortress but given that she can transport people in and out of it that's hardly ever going to be a disadvantage for her in most situations. She would still scale to her own Blood Demon Art.
Okay, then we agree at least in the case of Doma and can leave that behind but I'd still like to mention that we scale the neck durability of Doma at his peak from his Attack Potency on his profile. I just made a comparison between Kyogai and Nakime since both of their Blood Demon Arts revolve around a certain location, so the matter of Kyogai having a profile or not was not considered for that. That being said, Kyogai is included in my sandbox.
So much for you not having forgotten it. You were the one who told me that you had forgotten it. All I knew was that you didn't bring it up or mention it when you questioned the scaling regarding Doma's neck which was apparently because of a misunderstanding. After that you decided to address my answer and take offense to it, so it certainly doesn't seem that irrelevant to you. That being said, if we don't actually have any disagreement about the demon neck scaling, then we can indeed just move on from it like you just suggested.
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We can't use that to scale nakime to pillars right now, reason being kagaya stated that this bunch of hashiras are the strongest ones since the golden era, meaning that they've likely surpassed what was needed to become a hashira which was killing a lower moon, also all these hashiras has been hashiras for a good amount of time so even if they only met the bare requirements to become a hashira at the beginning of them being hashira they've surpasses themselves since then. For us to scale nakime to the pillars we saw because she's above a lower moon will also be us saying that the hashiras in this era are only average hashiras, which has been debunked so many times. He didn't even try to dodge it, Plus it didn't do any damage like I said, Once he got transported to kokushibo's room thing all he was concerned about was koku himself, not whatever the pillar did to tickle him.
Alright, Also I think there's some character who does have abilities that can only be used in a specific location / scenario. Though any matches involving kyogai and nakime will probably have them at IF so that was irrelevant to bring up, but I was the one who did so thats my dad.
I hadn't realize it was a misunderstanding till now, Me addressing it doesn't make it relevant to nakime. It is still irrelevant and I was just telling you so. And yeah I'd like that
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- #60
The requirement for becoming a Pillar involving Lower Moons was less a conclusive proof and more evidence for Nakime in fact having a significant amount of strength behind her attacks even if she doesn't have a particularly offensive style. I wouldn't use Muichiro not dodging the pillar as evidence for it being a really weak attack for him since it happened quite sudden and we don't see Muichiro noticing it before he got hit. Gyomei didn't see it coming either and was clearly worried. In fact, Muichiro told Gyomei not to mind him and to go on and then looked worried at the wall, so he certainly didn't consider this hit as "weak" and most likely would have dodged it if he could have done that. After that he lands in a combat ready position on the ground before he noticed Kokushibo which points towards him taking that incidence as a reason for increased caution.
Kyogai's Blood Demon Art has nothing to do with the Infinity Fortress. It revolves around the mansion in which he fought Tanjiro.
I kind of got the idea of it being a misunderstanding from you since you mentioned there being a misinterpretation. You addressing it means that I'll have to give an answer to that if I want to explain myself which means it became relevant for the conversation by virtue of having become a topic but I guess we can now just leave it.
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We don't know how strong a regular hashira is, At best we can say nakime has higher AP than the lower moons which wouldn't mean much. It wouldn't mean she packs a punch either. Although it keeps her tiering from being "unknown". I didn't say it was weak cause mui didn't dodge, I said its weak cause mui DID get hit by it and got no serious injuries, Mui also isn't a top tier hashira or anything, at least not physically. so nakime not being able to damage him doesn't look too good for her. Him telling gyomei to not mind him was to tell gyomei to move on without him , Plus he wouldn't know how strong the force is anyways. I mean its not even like it broke a bone, did some scratches or stuff like that, It fazed him and thats it. Plus theres still the fact that physically, Mui isn't impressive compared to other pillars so I wouldn't say nakime being able to faze mui should be use as a supporting point for her being strong
Point still stands, their BDA's work on specific locations. Although yeah the way I worded it did sound like I was implying kyogai's BDA was related to the IF
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At best? Nakime has been with Muzan for much longer than the vast majority of the Lower Moons and presumably had pretty good conditions for getting humans to devour and not getting killed by the Demon Slayer Corps since Muzan found her useful. Her having any offensive potential against the Pillars at all makes her superior to all of the Lower Moons at worst. Muichiro is still quite a bit stronger than just being stronger than the Lower Moons and we are talking about a single instance of Nakime hitting him while she was occupied with Mitsuri and Obanai at the same time. Said instance was her pushing Muichiro through a wall/door that apparently wasn't particularly thick or sturdy since the Infinity Fortress does seem to have walls and surfaces that can tank her smashing into them and she does seem to be capable of crushing targets by smashing multiple pillars against each other, so I wouldn't consider the instance with Muichiro as the peak of her Attack Potency. I'd also like to note that him speaking to Gyomei was while he was experiencing the effect of the force from said attack on his body, so I don't think that he had no idea whatsoever about how strong that was.
That wasn't just an implication. You outright said that Kyogai's matches would happen at the Infinity Fortress and kind of lumped him together with Nakime but this isn't too important now since it's cleared up.
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Yes, She doesn't have anything concrete that puts her to Hashira (at least the hashiras we've seen) or upper moon territory in strength. She also doesn't have any offensive potential against the hashiras, The best she did to hashiras was faze them and stall out obanai and mitsuri, And the hashiras she fazed wasn't even gyomei or sanemi or top ranking pillars, So she does not have offensive potential against the hashiras at all. Also Nakime was a quick replacement, and nakime has been with muzan before she became an upper moon, its very likely she was just a placeholder for the title while muzan goes and find another strong demon. If she was really upper moon then she should've been one way long ago, but she only became upper moon after muichiro killed the previous UM 4 (Forgot his name). Never denied that, If the muichiro is vague since she was occupied with mitsuri and obanai then we should look for other feats / statements of her being as strong as in your sandbox, I wasn't using that instance as her peak power and using it as an anti-feat, I was just saying that we shouldn't use it to scale him to muichiro or anything.
You're right, it isn't too important now
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Okay, the instance of Muichiro didn't particularly damage him but since she wasn't exactly focused on fighting him in particular and there are several aspects of the instance that can be presumed to have lessened the potential damage it isn't of much use for scaling though it's still notable that she managed to hit him before he could dodge and that Muichiro wasn't able to get off the pillar to continue on his original path once he was aware of the attack. As for Nakime's potential scaling we do know that it was possible to trick Muzan into believing that she killed two pillars which indicates that he doesn't think of her being in the realm of Upper Moons as being implausible which is consistent with her being made Upper Moon 4 while Kaigaku was stuck at the Upper Moon 6 position even though there wasn't an Upper Moon 5 at the time though that was probably at least partially due to Kaigaku not being particularly experienced as a demon. There is also Mitsuri worrying about dying from getting hit in chapter 183 which does indicate that Nakime can in fact seriously damage her if she can land a proper hit. So yes, I'd say that Nakime does in fact have some offensive potential against the Pillars even if it isn't particularly high or pronounced.
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He most likely just got caught off guard by the building or whatever that was that nakime used to attack him, I don't think it was that fast considering muichiro was able to talk to gyomei before the building pushed him far enough. Again, That point that muzan got isn't concrete, It wasn't what the author was trying to convey at all, That can just be coughed up to PiS, And its also contradicted by the muichiro feat (Yeah I know I said I wasn't using it as an anti feat by I wasn't using it back then), Yes she was occupied but the gap between killing obanai and mitsuri and fazing muichiro is huge, If she had potent enough AP to kill those two surely that attack she launched at muichiro would have done more than faze him, Nakime being occupied or not. It shouldn't reduce the AP Of the attack by much. If were going off by statements, Obanai states that nakime's BDA isn't deadly, I'd also take obanai's analyzation at a higher degree than I would mitsuri, She was under a lot of pressure when she said "But I might die first" and even then she didn't even explicitly mention dying form nakime. Plus the scene that statement was made was gag, The scan says it all. So it probably shouldn't be taken seriously. Kaigaku being ranked lower than nakime is probably due to the fact that he's been demon for a very short amount of time. I'd say nakime is more useful than kaigaku generally but kaigaku is childish and lacks experience, He doesn't entirely make it up with AP either, its not like his AP is something big. Meanwhile nakime can be used for a lot of things in the IF, She's way more experienced, More versatile with what she can do, has a more convenient ability than kaigaku's. She's just better at him than anything other than stats so scaling her stats to his because he's ranked lower is kinda not fair imo. So I don't think we should scale nakime above him either.
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Nakime would need to be fast with her Blood Demon Art in order to be able to cause trouble to Mitsuri and Obanai, so the attack on Muichiro was presumably fast as well. The pillar pushing Muichiro also had already moved a bit of a distance by the time Gyomei turned around, after noticing a sound behind him and getting concerned for Muichiro, and Muichiro spoke, so that isn't really being slow here considering how fast both of these characters are. Are you sure that you aren't making some assumptions about the author's intent? The scene in question is about Muzan believing that Mitsuri and Obanai got killed and the reveal that they weren't only comes later in the chapter, so I wouldn't exactly be eager to simply dismiss it as Plot-Induced Stupidity. I don't know what translation you are using for Obanai's statement but in the translation that I've looked up he thinks that it isn't that deadly which indicates that while he doesn't think that Nakime's attacks are particularly deadly he still considers them to be actual threats to some degree. The attack on Muichiro simply smashed him through a wall towards Kokushibo who was more than enough for Muichiro and it was just one attack. While Mitsuri's scene is certainly played for comedy her worrying about dying is still the direct reaction towards being nearly crushed between two pillars, so that's the most recent threat she had to avoid at that point. That isn't even taking into account that all of this is happening while the struggle between Yushiro and Muzan is taking place which is more on the dramatic and plot relevant side. I also don't think of Kimetsu no Yaiba as a series prone to gag feats that shouldn't be taken serious. The comparison with Kaigaku serves to illustrate that Nakime isn't just a placeholder but a legitimately strong demon.
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Even still, Her attack wasn't blitzing the hashiras or anything though I agree it should be at least comparable to them. The gyomei point isn't true though, Gyomei turned around the second the pillar moved muichiro and in the next pillar we saw the pillar a small bit away from where muichiro was and gyomei had already turned around. It's extremely far of that what the author was trying to convey when he drew that scene where yushiro tricked muzan was for us to know that nakime could kill the two instead of it being an illusion, Again this can be coughed up to PiS as if he had enough AP to do that then she would've at least been able to scratch the two or at least one of them but that wasn't the case, she just kept on stalling them out. The scene is simply muzan getting tricked by yushiro which was the plan, yushiro said so. When the author thought that he was gonna have yushiro trick muzan that nakime killed obanai and mitsuri I don't know if he was thinking the legitimately of nakime actually killing the two, he just wanted to have yushiro trick muzan. If it was only a threat to some degree to him and not full-on dangerous then that makes the vision muzan saw where they died even more implausible. The wall that hit muichiro smashed him through a wall, at speeds that you claim were on par with the pillars so that attack was a tid bat stronger than her just sending out pillars, Even if its one attack, Someone with comparable AP to you is injuring you with one attack. Mitsuri saying she's gonna could've been her being stupid, Or paranoid. If muichiro tanked an attack from nakime and was relatively unfazed then how is she gonna die, she's physically stronger than him too. I also think smashing someone between a wall or a pillar is really the best nakime can do, If she can only control the fortress and stuff like simply attacking someone with a pillar is her regular move, which mitsuri completely no selled. Demon slayer definitely doesn't have a lot of gag feats as other series but the lack of gag feats doesn't make the gag feats that are present in the verse acceptable or serious, they are gag. Yes she is, She's better than kaigaku in everything but stats, so scaling her stats above kaigaku cause she was ranked higher than him isn't concrete either. If kaigaku had been demon for a little while and gained experience he'll overtake her spot easily. Plus nakime has been working for muzan for even before kaigaku was born, so he trusts her and her abilities like decision making and other stuff more than he does kaigaku.
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I never said that she was blitzing them. She is simply fast enough to keep up and catch them off guard under the right circumstances. It's true that Gyomei already looked into Muichiro's direction when he had only been moved a little bit from the original path but at that point the only thing that had fully turned to Muichiro's direction was Gyomei's head with the rest of Gyomei's body only having slightly turned from the original path. By the time Gyomei has fully turned and is visibly going after Muichiro's direction Muichiro had already moved a distance where Muichiro thought that Gyomei shouldn't chase after him anymore.
Attack Potency would only work if you land a hit and as far as we can tell Mitsuri and Obanai successfully dodged everything, so I really don't think that assuming that we have a case of PiS here because of them avoiding damage is appropriate. Well, the author was definitely not thinking of Mitsuri and Obanai actually getting killed by Nakime since their survival is confirmed in the same chapter as the deception but it does confirm that it is a possibility that characters can be tricked into believing with one of the characters being someone who should know Nakime's capabilities very well. Something that's a threat to you even if it isn't a big one should still be capable of dealing damage even if it isn't necessarily a massive amount of damage and Muzan's vision only showed as a result of a battle where the enemies had been killed which leaves open the possibility of them having accumulated injuries and getting disoriented before getting killed since we don't see what happened immediately prior to that.
I wouldn't say that the attack that hit Muichiro was stronger than her other attacks. Technically she doesn't have a reason to hold back against Mitsuri and Obanai or to apply more effort against Muichiro specifically and Mitsuri and Obanai dodging her attacks doesn't mean that she is slower there especially since Mitsuri and Obanai saw the attacks coming unlike Muichiro who was caught off guard. Mitsuri is a Pillar and has a considerable amount of experience, her being stupid is unlikely and certainly doesn't fit to her profile's above average intelligence rating even if she can be rather silly or comedic. Her being paranoid is more understandable but Mitsuri is someone who is used to dealing with demons and has dispatched Lower Moons before and this is on top of having fought Zohakuten before (though she did get a Demon Slayer Mark in that battle after a while and thought that she was going to die at the end at the moment Hantengu was beheaded by Tanjiro), so she isn't going to panic or get paranoid easily unless the opponent is considerably more formidable than what she is used to.
Considering how much longer Nakime had been around and her much higher utility I severely doubt that Kaigaku would have had an easy time overtaking her but that can be considered my personal opinion since we never see how strong Kaigaku could have become as an experienced demon under the right circumstances.
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I know, Was just pointing it out, was an exaggeration on my part though. I don't think muichiro told gyomei to not mind him was because muichiro thought it was too late, He simply didn't want to become a burden to gyomei or anything. I'd say her attack speed is relative to the hashiras.
Nakime did hit mitsuri. At some point in the fight. Also to prove the point that mitsuri was just paranoid when she said she was gonna die. She was also panicking a lot when nakime hit her with a pillar despite her literally no selling it physically. Yeah, and that was my point. The author most likely wasn't focusing on the possibility of nakime killing obanai and mitsuri. Meaning even if it was possible or not she would've wrote the scene anyways. Muzan also said "The pillar in the striped haori and the woman pillar already seem to have been killed by my subordinate, you know" Which seem to indicate he had a slight doubt it could happen when he said "seem", But even then, Even if he didn't have doubts that wasn't what the author was trying to convey. Even so, Mitsuri did get hit and had no damage, neither did mui. The only two times nakime has ever managed to attack the hashiras, the hashiras no selled them. I'd take two feats over a vague implication which wasn't the author's point anyways.
I never said she was holding back against obanai or mitsuri, And there's no point on her going more all out on muichiro. Her attack that hit muichiro was most likely one of her strongest attacks, Not only did it caught him off guard so he didn't have his defense up, it also smashed him through a wall at high speeds which would increase the damage, all of that to faze muichiro, one of the weakest pillars physically. Experience doesn't equate to intelligence, And mitsuri isn't portrayed someone as smart or even someone with above average intelligence. And her intelligence reasoning is doodoo, Experience doesn't equate to intelligence like I said. Even then the reasoning the pages give her above average intelligence is skill, Not tactical decisions. You can be more skilled than master martial arts but be stupid. Plus even if she is smart normally, Her being panicked and under pressure at that time could've clouded her better judgment. And its not even really a matter of her being stupid or dumb, its her not having enough knowledge. She doesn't know if she really will die since she wouldn't how strong her attacks are, aside from the attack that she literally no selled which should just further prove that she wasn't all that smart and wise when she said that. Mitsuri taking out lower moons isn't really a feat for her skill to do well under pressure. Lower moons should be outright fodder to her so they shouldn't be putting much pressure on her. Also to prove she doesn't make stupid decisions under pressure or paranoia. When she and obanai got to the place where giyu and tanjiro was with muzan, She literally straight up attacked her, and then ran back and was shocked where it had no effect despite her being well aware she was attacking muzan, the king of demons. Also like I said we should take obanai's analyzation to a higher degree than mitsuri's, He can clearly make smart decisions even under pressure, and even then nakime didn't even put pressure into him. And he said it isn't that deadly meanwhile mitsuri said nakime can kill her. Obanai's statements contradicts what mitsuri is said and obanai is smarter than mitsuri and wasn't under pressure. Plus even then mitsuri didn't state she was gonna die, she said she might die so it could just be her being careful or paranoid. Plus she was scared of zohakuten too. And she got mad that zohakuten called her a "harlot" thats why she attacked her (Yes it sounds goofy but mitsuri was actually mad at him for saying that and thats when she attacked her)
I mean, Kaigaku is a demon who also uses breathing styles and thunder breathing at that too which isn't a pushover, He definitely has the potential. But again Nakime is just better than kaigaku at everything but stats.
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Just scale Nakime over the lower moons and call it a day
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I would be fine with that.
My focus is less on proposing something and more on elaborating on which parts of your arguments I don't agree with and why I don't agree.
Yeah, I think him not wanting to be a burden is plausible but this still means that Nakime's attack constituted a major enough inconvenience to constitute such a response from Muichiro which is further supported by the fact that Gyomei apparently couldn't prevent Muichiro from getting smashed through a wall to Upper Moon 1.
Okay, I looked up chapter 164 and Mitsuri did get hit but Mitsuri also mitigated the damage by cutting the pillar apart before she could crash with the ceiling, so she didn't just fully tank the attack physically. If Muzan only had a slight doubt about her killing Pillars, then that means that he didn't have much of a reason to doubt it which would be evidence in favor for Nakime's strength. I'd also like to note that Yushiro's ploy of deceiving Muzan is dependent on the idea of Nakime killing Pillars actually being believable which it wouldn't be if she was so far below them that she couldn't even damage them with direct unmitigated hits.
The wall that Muichiro was smashed through doesn't seem to have been particularly thick and considering whom he encountered afterwards it appears to me that the primary purpose of the attack from Nakime was to get Muichiro killed by Kokushibo and she wouldn't actually need to deal significant damage to Muichiro for that. Experience should still help in making sound judgments and Mitsuri for all her silliness is not portrayed as outright stupid. You would also think that moving out of the way for several attacks would give you an idea of the strength of the attack since you can see, hear and feel them impacting nearby. It's not like as if Mitsuri was always capable of dealing with Lower Moons, I doubt that she had a comfortable time reaching that level, so she should have some familiarity with fighting enemies that are serious threats to her. Mitsuri was shocked about her attack having no effect, I don't think that she thought that she could simply defeat him, she simply expected for her hit to at least deal some damage which would have been entirely plausible due to a demon's body's durability inconsistencies that allow weaker opponents to harm them as seen when Tanjiro managed to impale Muzan's head by throwing a sword in chapter 183. I've checked the chapters for Mitsuri's fight against Zohakuten again and I can confirm that she was mad at Zohakuten for calling a harlot. That was a part that I could remember without looking it up. The only times where I think you could say that Mitsuri was afraid is when she found out that she couldn't kill Zohakuten by decapitating him and at the end when she hit her limit and Hantengu was defeated. Before the "harlot" comment she already cut apart a wooden dragon from Zohakuten and saved Tanjiro, so she clearly already had the intention of fighting Zohakuten here and she was also not afraid to reprimand him there. Even after the harlot comment she was merely indignant and only proceeded to the offensive once Zohakuten attacked her.
Having potential is hardly the same as having it easy but I see what your point is.
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Such a response from muichiro? What response? He made no responses that indicate he was endangered. In fact him telling gyomei to not mind him can also be used to say that he didn't think the pillar was going to kill or cause heavy damage to him. Muichiro is smart so if he thought he was gonna die he'd def call gyomei's help. He'd know that his life is more important than gyomei stopping 2 seconds. And there was nothing indicating gyomei couldn't stop the attack either. If he couldn't then mui wouldn't tell gyomei to not mind him.
She still no selled it which indicates nakime isn't that close to her in AP. No that wasn't my point, My point was that muzan had a slight doubt at all. He literally saw it with his own eyes that muichiro and obanai were dead and he still had some doubts so its possible that he didn't see nakime killing them. Plus muzan doesn't even know how strong these two are anyways. So why are we scaling nakime off of obanai and mitsuri if muzan didn't know how strong mitsuri and obanai was and therefore wouldn't be able to gauge if nakime killing them is plausible or not.
This could've been a PiS or an art style error on gotogue's part. if its true that is cause the pillar that attacked muichiro didn't seem to be different from the ones that nakime used to attack obanai. Thing is, Mitsuri most likely has never been in a situation where she's stuck with a bunch of upper moons and the demon king in one area. I never did claim she was portrayed outright stupid and that was never point, The point I was trying to get across was Pitting her judgment against obanai's cause they contradict each other, And that comparison should be no contest. Obanai was calm and collected throughout the fight and should've been making more decisions. Impacts, sounds and all the stuff you've mentioned doesn't give even a close representation of how strong an attack is, And obanai and mitsuri should know that since their not stupid especially obanai, Why can't we assume they were just careful. She most likely had, Kyoujuro was her teacher and likely aided her in more deadly missions or just taught her stuff. Plus she had already known how destructive a lower moon can get ever since she was a mizunoto which was the lowest rank in demon slayer. As she was a mizunoto when she was with rengoku in his fight against hairo. So lower moons aren't completely unknown to her unlike upper moons are. And I wouldn't call lower moons a serious threat to her, She had a pillar teacher and had a physical build way better than average humans so even the first time she exterminated a lower moon she shouldn't have been far off. Why is the durability of a demon's body being brought up here? Her attack landed on one of muzan's tentacles and she knew that before being shocked about her attack not doing anything. Honestly I'm Alright with conceding with the zohakuten point, Because the obanai point would still stand, Mitsuri said she might die and obanai stated that Nakime's BDA isn't that deadly so they contradict each other, And obanai was dealing with the pressure better than mitsuri was.
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The response of telling Gyomei not to go after him despite Gyomei being clearly worried about him. Muichiro not thinking that he was going to die or suffer heavy damage is fair and I didn't think that he was thinking that either but if his look at the wall is any indication, then he wasn't exactly unworried either, so there's that. If Gyomei could have simply stopped the attack, than that would have been more convenient then Muichiro getting off course and hitting a wall, and this isn't even taking the encounter with Kokushibo in consideration.
The damage from physical attacks generally comes from their impact which is why Mitsuri cutting apart the pillar before she hit the ceiling significantly reduced the damage she presumably would have suffered from that. An act of reducing the damage you would have suffered or cutting someone's attack apart doesn't indicate that you are massively superior or we might as well scale Mitsuri above Zohakuten for cutting through his attacks. Muzan still considers the loss of Mitsuri and Obanai as significant for the Pillars, so he certainly wasn't thinking that some weak people that wouldn't have been a help against him or the Upper Moons have died. He should also know that the Pillars can fodderize Lower Moons, so we can presume that Nakime is on a level where Lower Moons are fodder for her as well.
Unless we have actual evidence for PiS or an art style error we really shouldn't make that sort of assumption in my opinion. At that point in time only Nakime and Muzan remained of the enemies, so multiple Upper Moons aren't a factor here anymore, and Mitsuri's thoughts were a response to being nearly hit by the pillars, so that's presumably what they are mainly about. While Obanai's judgment and Mitsuri's thoughts do contrast each other to some degree they aren't necessarily contradictory to each other. "Not that deadly" and "might die" both indicate that there is a certain potential for someone to get killed by that and show the difference in the emotional response to the same thing which also shows the difference in their personalities. It's true that Mitsuri had Rengoku as a teacher but Rengoku's training is so hard that most people quit and her fight in the Rengoku Gaiden wasn't easy for her either, and that fight was against mere constructions from Hairo's Blood Demon Art and not Hairo himself, so she's still far off from Lower Moon level at that point. Rengoku wouldn't accompany her on every step on her way to becoming a Pillar either, so there's that. I'd also like to note that having people who reached the rank of Pillar as teachers didn't make things easy for Tanjiro, Zenitsu or Kaigaku either. The only consistent rating we have right now in terms of demon durability is for the neck of a demon and Mitsuri cut through the attacks of demons that gave her trouble before, so her response isn't entirely unreasonable and despite how emotional she can get she will still handle herself in a fight competently.
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The encounter with kokushibo means nothing as neither gyomei nor muichiro knew that muichiro was gonna end up as kokushibo's place. And gyomei could've stopped it most likely and muichiro did not just want him to.
What does physical damage coming from impact have to do with anything here? She did get hit by the pillar and it did made impact upon contact. Her cutting the pillar doesn't really mean nakime is close to her, She was just paranoid or careful, Just because characters didn't Job or dodge attacks doesn't mean they think its comparable to them, Especially if they dont tank attacks in character. Of course it was significant I never denied that but its vague and we cant use it outright scale nakime to obanai. It was a huge bust for the pillars because there numbers are lowered by 2 now, not that the people that died were particularly strong, And obanai and mitsuri or literally any of the pillars we saw was way above the past pillars if they're the strongest batch of hashiras with the exception of the golden era. Yeah and I never denied that, I agree with nakime scaling to lower moons but pillars don't fodderize lower moons, Its a requirement for them to become a pillar but not so much so that they no diff them. Standard hashiras doesn't have to fodderize lower moons, its just that the only batch of hashiras we saw, can.
It is just most likely PiS or An art style error as it is a massively small detail that the chances of the author focusing on that is close to 0, its a serious nitpick that isn't concrete. I admit that I forgot about the crows sending information to the slayers, Even still though, Muzan was enough of a threat to put her under lots of pressure. yes when she said she was gonna die she hadn't seen how strong muzan is but she knows that he is the demon king and that he should be way above the demons she's fought like zohakuten. Plus she knew that pillars are dying left and right by upper moons so she knew these upper moons are serious business and she also knew that muzan should be way above them. I feel like that doesn't make her judgment any better, Since now it doesn't just contradict obanai's better judgment but also the scene where muichiro got hit by a pillar. Not that deadly is an indication that it shouldn't have the potential to kill while "might die" says it does. Even then obanai was likely comparing nakime's BDA to other demons BDA that he encountered and then made a judgment if hers is deadly or not, which says a lot cause nakime is the first UM nakime has fought so the comparison obanai was making was with lower moons most likely. Wdym "rengoku's is so hard" Is there supposed to be a word between rengoku and is? Her being far off from lower moon level at the point of the gaiden doesn't mean she was far off when she actually fought one, Plus I'd like to note that she was a mizunoto when she did that, And hairo isn't a fodder lower moon either since he was lower moon 2, So taking out his constructs at a mizunoto rank is certainly impressive. Why wouldn't he? Like yeah rengoku won't be there when she takes out a lower moon but she's gonna get knowledge on a pillar who's dealt with a high ranking lower moon and is also a very smart person. And those two examples you gave did make them better than people on their rank, Tanjiro certainly wasn't average mizunoto level, And neither was zenitsu, Zenitsu and inosuke was literally kanoe, the fourth lowest on the chain when they were able to cut daki's neck, they did it together but thats still stupidly above kanoe level, taking out an upper moon is literally hashira level. so those guys are way above what their ranks should be in power.
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Muichiro did not want Gyomei to stop it because it would have presumably been too much trouble for it to be worth deviating from the original path. They indeed couldn't have known about Kokushibo but it is an added extra detail for the situation which shows that Nakime didn't need to damage or take out Muichiro here in order for Muichiro to die.
While it did make contact with Mitsuri this would be only one of two impacts that would be relevant for the physical damage dealt by the attack and while Mitsuri cutting the attack doesn't mean that Nakime is close to her it also doesn't mean that Nakime is far inferior which was what my previous point was about. Defeating a Lower Moon is a requirement for joining the Pillars which means that it is a minimum and not an average. Any Pillar which had been active as one for a while and didn't slack off would be significantly above that by default and Muzan would know about each and every time a Lower Moon was taken out which was the source of his frustration with them. You'd also have to consider that there were a lot of fodder demons designed to have the strength of Lower Moons in the Infinity Fortress, so being able to fodderize demons with the raw strength of Lower Moons is basically a requirement for any Pillar in the Infinity Fortress who wants to get to the Upper Moons or Muzan.
I admit that it is a small detail and that it shouldn't be the basis or at least the only basis for a lot of decisions or major decisions but I still disagree with assuming PiS or art style errors here. The attack was clearly pushing Muichiro towards Kokushibo's location, so it makes sense that they weren't separated by massively thick walls. Mitsuri was shocked about there being no effect from what she deemed to be a direct hit and she had Tanjiro, Giyu and Obanai with her in the fight, so I doubt that she thought for even a moment that it wouldn't be harder than with Zohakuten. Getting squished by two pillars on collision course with each other is definitely more deadly than getting pushed through a wall by a single pillar, so I don't see a contradiction with Muichiro's situation here. It's unlikely that Obanai deemed that Nakime's Blood Demon Art is not that deadly in comparison to Lower Moons since on his level even attacks superior to Lower Moons wouldn't necessarily be difficult to deal with and we already established that Nakime is quite definitely far superior to Lower Moons. Based on the context I'd say that he is saying this based on the nature of Nakime's Blood Demon Art. It isn't the most offensive kind of power and Mitsuri and Obanai are fully capable of avoiding the attacks which makes them significantly less deadly than attacks that they can't consistently dodge but it instead makes it really hard to land attacks on Nakime since she controls the entire location. Being better than other people doesn't necessarily make things easier since you'll be sent out against more formidable foes. Tanjiro had to face demons with Blood Demon Arts since his first official mission and was sent against Kyogai who got kicked out of the Lower Moons on his third official mission with broken bones that haven't fully recovered yet. I'd imagine that Mitsuri's missions were similar and that Rengoku wouldn't make her missions easier to the point where she would legitimately have it easy. I forgot to add the word training after "Rengoku's" but I've already fixed that.
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Where did you get that from? We got no indication that gyomei stopping the pillar would've been too much trouble to him nor did he seem to think that was the case.
And how did we know that average pillars surpass the bare minimum? And we know how strong these hashiras are since the upper moons are always talking about "I've never seen a pillar as strong like you in X years" Like when akaza said its been years since he saw a water pillar as good as giyu, Or kokushibo stating that it's been hundreds of years since he's seen a slayer as strong as gyomei and him saying that he and sanemi stand foremost even when compared to other hashira he's met, foremost meaning the highest. So they're far above average. No they wouldn't, What's your basis on that? Since the only batch of pillars we saw dwarves the other batches of pillars. I'm fine with scaling nakime far above lower moons, I just didn't agree with the standard hashira being able to fodderize them.
Even if we say the attack wasn't meant to deal damage to muichiro, its the strongest attack of nakime we've seen so far since its the only one where she managed to hit someone with a pillar and then crash that pillar onto a wall which increases her damage. But it wasn't, Depending on the meaning of direct hit she was using, But she didn't hit muzan's body, If hitting his tentacles was a direct hit then every hit is, And she knew well what part of muzan's body she attacked and she was still shocked, Her having other pillars there didn't really mean much, not for her at least since in her thoughts she was saying something along the lines of wanting gyomei to come there as soon as possible. The lower moons comparison was a safe bet since we've never seen Obanai fought an upper moon up to this point and he was in disbelief when he heard about rengoku dying to upper moon three which shouldn't have been a surprise to him if he had known how strong any demons that reached upper 3 is. You just gave feats on why tanjiro is way above what his rank should be and that was my point so idk if thats helping your case here. Her having rengoku would be easy since she'd basically be a tsuguko and the only example of a tsuguko we have is kanao who is like pillar level. Its clear having a past hashira teach you is a great thing. His training being hard will only bear better results than an easy training which would lead to mitsuri getting stronger cause she's getting harder training
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If it wouldn't have been any trouble, then he could have simply done it and there wouldn't have been any reason for Muichiro to tell him not to mind him. It's not like as if Muichiro randomly decided to tank that attack because it's weak or something like that.
The Demon Slayer Corps has existed for about a 1000 years and used Total Concentration Breathing since 500 years. Statistically speaking it's almost impossible that there were no Pillars above the bare minimum outside of the generation of pillars that Kagaya deemed the strongest generation of swordsmen using Total Concentration Breathing since the first one. And since defeating a Lower Moon is the bare minimum every Pillar would be either on that level or above which means that we know that the average for a Pillar is higher than that since there are Pillars that are confirmed to be or are quite blatantly above that minimum and the average could only possibly be equal to the minimum if every Pillar only had the minimum strength required for being one which is obviously not the case. I'm not saying that every Pillar automatically fodderizes Lower Moons but we do know that this is the case with the batch of Pillars that was in the Infinity Fortress and Muzan would know that every Pillar that can reach him or any of Upper Moons would have needed to get past all of these fodder demons with the strength of Lower Moons.
Technically, attacks aren't stronger just because they hit their mark. You can launch attacks that miss but this doesn't mean that they are weaker than your other attacks. The attacks that miss are just less effective overall. It does appear that getting hit by one her pillars and crashing because of them through a thin wall is not enough to cause significant damage to one of the Pillars that were at the Infinity Fortress but this doesn't mean that there wouldn't have been a problem if a Pillar had been hit by them repeatedly, was crushed by a pillar against the ceiling which would presumably have been sturdier than the wall or was crushed between two of said pillars. Mitsuri managed to cut through Zohakuten and Nakime's attacks before, so she probably expected the same to hold true against Muzan even if he was stronger and she would presumably have had a harder time against him. Well, having the strongest Pillar fighting together with you against the strongest demon would be reassuring for any demon slayer really, that doesn't mean that she thought Muzan was like Zohakuten in terms of strength or that the presence of her fellow Pillars didn't mean much to her. Nakime is still much stronger than a Lower Moon, so saying that her Blood Demon Art is less deadlier than that of Lower Moons in terms of power doesn't make any sense, it's more plausible for Obanai to be referring to the specific nature of Nakime's Blood Demon Art. At that point Obanai already knew that Upper Moon 6 injured Tengen to the point of retirement and that Upper Moon 3 killed Rengoku. He would also know about the trouble that Upper Moon 5 and 4 caused Mitsuri and Muichiro, so he wouldn't think of Upper Moons as being close or less than Lower Moons in terms of power. I also think that his shock about Rengoku's death was less because of him underestimating Upper Moon 3 and more how highly he regarded Rengoku as a fellow Pillar. I'm not arguing that Tanjiro and Mitsuri weren't above other demon slayers during their time in the Demon Slayer Corps. What I'm arguing against is that they had it "easy" to get where they are now. They faced harsh training and went through difficult missions that forced them to improve themselves with experience and further training. I don't think that any of the Pillars would take that away from their Tsugukos by making it so that they never have to face a difficult enemy in their missions. Because of all this I'm of the belief that Mitsuri did in fact face enemies that gave her a hard time and therefore has experience in regard to difficult fights.
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He was going to, Muichiro told him not. Like I said he just didnt want to be a burden, Not that he though it'd be hard for gyomei to catch him.
Alright there's been a lot of slayers and hashiras too and some of them goes above lower moon level while their hashiras but that doesn't mean the majority of the hashiras does, And for muzan to assume obanai and mitsuri were above lower moon level then the vast majority of the hashrias he knew had to be above that which is most likely not the case. I didn't deny that veteran hashiras would surpass the lower moons but thr` majority of them aren't getting to the level where lower moon are fodder to them. Muzan knowing that obanai and mitsuri can fodderize lower moon would just mean nakime scales above the lower moons but muzan still doesn't know to what extent these two fodderize lower moons.
Your point being? Cause my point was that this was her strongest attack that we've seen. Those attacks you just mentioned wouldn't scale to her bare AP anyways since this isn't what she can casually dish out, Getting crushed repeatedly and the damage taken from that will just be accumulative damage, The AP Page says that AP is dependent on one attack, So it wouldn't scale regardless and even then we don't know if that accumulative damage she does will injure them anyways. Her thinking she could damage muzan just cause she damaged zohakuten and nakime would be really really stupid, Whats the basis on that? Mitsuri should be well aware that muzan is laughably above the upper moons she's fought, muzan has lived for thousands of years and ate a lot more humans than anyone, And its not like Zohakuten or nakime are upper moon 3 or up. Mitsuri should have expected gyomei to not be performing at peak performance and not only gyomei but everyone except her and obanai were far from performing at peak performance and she should know this cause she's hearing how pillars were dying so she most likely knew that upper moons are a serious threat and that they'd wear down the pillars includng gyomei. Plus she knew that rengoku got killed and tengen got forced to retire by upper moons. I never denied that nor was I trying to say that obanai was trying to say that, He knew she was an upper moon so he'd likely assume the worst and then when he found out her BDA it wasn't deadly as what he was expecting. him knowing that upper moons killed his fellow hashiras doesn't mean he'll get a clear vision of their BDA or something since a BDA isn't the be all end all, The upper moons couldn't have just been crazy strong physically. that doesn't make any sense, Regardless of if he though highly of rengoku or not, if he knew the general level of demons who became upper moon 3 he wouldn't have been shocked, Why is him thinking of rengoku highly, relevant? I don't understand, You said they had it easy and then at the very last sentence say that they experienced difficulty but it doesn't even matter, whether she was scared or not obanai would still be making better decisions
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Why would it be a burden on Gyomei if it wasn't going to be hard to some degree? If it was something that Gyomei could casually do, then Muichiro refusing help from him would be as ridiculous as refusing a helping hand after you fell down while the area around is overrun by zombies. He did end up dying because of his subsequent encounter with Kokushibo after all even if he couldn't have known about that particular part.
While Muzan doesn't know the extent to which Mitsuri and Obanai fodderize Lower Moons he was still not surprised by the idea of Nakime killing two such individuals which would further support the idea of her being much stronger than a Lower Moon and not at all inadequate as an Upper Moon. If you agree with Nakime fodderizing Lower Moons, then I have nothing else to add to that particular part.
Getting hit repeatedly by her pillars is the only accumulative way of dealing damage that I suggested and still implies that a single attack from her deals enough damage for the accumulation of a significant amount of it in a reasonable timeframe to be possible which would mean that she couldn't be too much below the Pillars even if she is overall weaker. My other suggested attacks are her directing her pillar and her target towards the ceiling which would be a single attack and using two pillars simultaneously to crush someone which would also count as a single attack due to the simultaneity. Her attack on Muichiro is by no means indicated to be the strongest she can muster up and still got Muichiro killed via Kokushibo. I don't think that everyone not being at their peak performance anymore would make their presence in a fight against Muzan not reassuring since you would at least not be alone and have capable allies with you. Stronger demons like the Upper Moons seem to be generally pretty good with their Blood Demon Arts based on what we've seen in the series which is presumably due to them having had them for a long time already, that would be something that Obanai would presumably be aware of or he would have at the very least encountered demons like that himself as an experienced Pillar. Regardless of anything else Nakime's Blood Demon Art being outright weaker in terms of strength than the Blood Demon Arts of Lower Moons doesn't make sense. That just means that Mitsuri had the confidence of being able to do that to someone stronger than the ones she already did that against, she didn't necessarily know the exact degree of superiority after all. The Upper Moons haven't changed since centuries, so the only Upper Moon 3 whose strength Obanai could have reasonably known about with some certainty is Akaza. Him thinking highly of Rengoku means that the shock is mainly about having been just told that someone he respected has died and no matter how strong an Upper Moon 3 is known to be you would still be shocked about a respected colleague suddenly being dead because of that since that wouldn't be a really common occurence that you would outright expect to happen to that particular person. You were the one that suggested that Mitsuri had it easy and that she wouldn't have experience fighting against difficult opponents. Have you forgotten what that part of the debate was about?
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