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Voting King for the reasons that @KingTempest and @Kachon123 gave.
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Kaido's son that he always wanted vs Kaido's son that he never wanted
- Thread starter Eseseso
- Start date
DaMonkeMan
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Yeah I might vote King, even if she turns off his flame there's that attack set to explode upon being hit, and although she can simply make ice armor and use armament I don't know if she can stop the other attacks he has due to their speed. King is quite wild.
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Who do you think wins?
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Just wanna say this right now since people think she can freeze flames, she can't.
Yama can extinguish flames to an extent, and I wouldn't even say it's because of how cold his ice is. It's more due to his ice being nearly equal to Kaidou's Blast Breath, so when they clash they get negated due to being equal. I know it's a nitpick but I don't wanna see dumbass comments like "Yama can create ice so cold it freezes fire."
Anyway, back to the discussion. I might go with an incon, King can probably disarm Yama in a similar way that he did with Zoro's swords, and if he loses his weapon I can't really see Yama performing nearly as well due to little to no skill feats. But Yama inherently does have the AP advantage, and she can afford to take a good bit of blows without having an actual harm done to her (The damage would only get placed onto the ice rather than her actual body, it essentially acts as a pseudo form of Invulnerability.)
King is faster, is tricker and has some good levels of Adaptation.
Yama has higher AP, durability, can likely counter his Imperial Flame attacks, etc.
However unlike Zoro, Yama doesn't have the intelligence or skill to notice the flaw of King's speed enhancements which lowers his durability, and King's speed amp is crazy. He blitzed Zoro multiple times, Zoro being the same guy who has 2 forms of Analytical Prediction which has allowed him to dodge FTE shit in the past on top of having real Precognition via Kenbunshoku Haki.
So yeah, I'm voting Inconclusive, slightly leaning towards King for his speed amps and his overall tricky fighting style.
Edit: Actually King should take this for my reasons and the reasons King gave.
Yama can extinguish flames to an extent, and I wouldn't even say it's because of how cold his ice is. It's more due to his ice being nearly equal to Kaidou's Blast Breath, so when they clash they get negated due to being equal. I know it's a nitpick but I don't wanna see dumbass comments like "Yama can create ice so cold it freezes fire."
Anyway, back to the discussion. I might go with an incon, King can probably disarm Yama in a similar way that he did with Zoro's swords, and if he loses his weapon I can't really see Yama performing nearly as well due to little to no skill feats. But Yama inherently does have the AP advantage, and she can afford to take a good bit of blows without having an actual harm done to her (The damage would only get placed onto the ice rather than her actual body, it essentially acts as a pseudo form of Invulnerability.)
King is faster, is tricker and has some good levels of Adaptation.
Yama has higher AP, durability, can likely counter his Imperial Flame attacks, etc.
However unlike Zoro, Yama doesn't have the intelligence or skill to notice the flaw of King's speed enhancements which lowers his durability, and King's speed amp is crazy. He blitzed Zoro multiple times, Zoro being the same guy who has 2 forms of Analytical Prediction which has allowed him to dodge FTE shit in the past on top of having real Precognition via Kenbunshoku Haki.
So yeah, I'm voting Inconclusive, slightly leaning towards King for his speed amps and his overall tricky fighting style.
Edit: Actually King should take this for my reasons and the reasons King gave.
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Yeah no Flame on Zoan King is above Zoan Kaido in durability so he's more durable than Zoan Yamato if he is in Zoan with flames on.
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Yama can counter that with her Ice Armour, I'd actually argue it's better than King's durability since said ice Armour isn't even reliant on durability to begin with. The Ice takes the attacks for her, not Yama herself.
It's "I can tank attacks." vs "I can ignore attacks for a limited amount of time."
It's "I can tank attacks." vs "I can ignore attacks for a limited amount of time."
Eminiteable
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If kings cautious a wincon for him would just be staying in zoan form flying out of her range and bombarding her with imperial deep pride stakes and flame bullets, the latter could be defended against but would continue to pressure her and I don't think she has an answer for the attack speed of imperial deep pride stake.
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Thunder Bagua
Eminiteable
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How's that going to work?
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Check out the song "It just works" about Bethesda's on YouTube it's hilarious
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He throws his head, she counters it
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- Thread starter
- #53
But his Stake attack is faster
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based on?
DaMonkeMan
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Iirc Zoro said it was like a laser, but in that case lasers can be deflected so..
Eminiteable
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If she's able to do that then sure, although in her shown fights she didn't really display herself to have the combat skill to attempt that at anytime.
I'm also unsure if she would be able to react to it being launched; when he uses the technique he turns his flame off, so he'll be in his flame off zoan form which is insanely fast as it is ignoring that actual attack itself which Zoro couldn't react to.
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Zoro with 2 forms of Analytical Prediction and better Kenbunshoku Haki couldn't properly react to King's attacks.
DaMonkeMan
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Still DODGED it, but he simply said it was too fast to block.
DaMonkeMan
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I forget how imperial deep pride stake works but if he uses it she can maybe dodge ( like Zoro did) and hit him on the head. Since it's a flame off attack his defense would be lowered and he'd suffer quite the injury from it. Just know that I'm not sure as I forgot how imperial works and what King starts off with. Which reminds me, iirc Yamato starts with Thunder Bagua, so he's probably gonna get shlapped by that immediately, though he might have his flame on, which might render it useless
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Same Zoro couldn't react to Kaidou's Thunder Bagua, which Yamato matched in speed
He attacks from a far range, and as a person superior in speed to Zoro it'll be easier for her to match an attack that moves in a straight line
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That Zoro was weakened/badly hurt from tanking Ocean Sovereignty, and earlier when Zoro and Apoo hit Kaido together they struck before he could
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I feel like this doesn't really count considering Zoro had multiple broken bones which'll obviously interfere with his speed.
Basically think about it like this, would you expect me to be able to continue fighting normally after getting ran over by a car at full speed? The state of the body wouldn't allow him to function normally.
DaMonkeMan
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Dude Zoro, along with many other characters, have still fought and reacted quite well even with broken bones.
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my ass, he deflected hybrid kaidou's attack right before that and he didn't even react
Killer*, and no. Kaidou was off guard and still managed to throw his guard up first
reactions wouldn't be affected by broken bones, and this is the same attack that blitzed law, which reacted to all of Zoro's movements, so the same still applies
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I wouldn't say quite well. Zoro took a combined attack from Kaidou and Big Mom, had dozens of broken bones and was left panting on the ground. He was essentially taken out of the equation till he took the drugs.
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Not saying the thunder Bagua wouldn't blitz Zoro, but the example in 1010 doesn't work. He already fell to the ground and was powerless to move before Kaidou used the technique so obviously it hit him.
DaMonkeMan
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Luffy was in a puddle of his own blood after Lucci hit him with his ultimate attack. He still got up and was able to deliver a smackdown. Why can't Zoro do the same, especially when Zoro has fought with broken bones before?
DaMonkeMan
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There's also the very infamous Nothing Happened moment, where he took all of Luffy's pain, piled with his, and was still able to talk and move his arms afterwards, despite being drenched in his own blood.
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To quote Giancarlo Giuseppe Alessandro Esposito, "We are not the same." Luffy is quite literally built different and due to having a Mythical Zoan fruit his recovery rate is stupid as ****.
Luffy's endurance Post-Time skip scales above Zoro's.
King, reaction speed is irrelevant if your movement speed isn't up to par. You can see something coming, yes, but being able to move out of the way effectively is completely different.
I share the same opinion as Emin, I'm not saying Zoro could evade Thunder Buga, but using an injured Zoro doesn't cut it as a valid argument for me.
DaMonkeMan
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Well if you all still agree he can't dodge thunder bagua why are we still debating it
Eminiteable
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I get that it's a straight line attack fired from far away but even with these conditions it still blitzed Zoro's reactions and made him believe it's unblockable despite his various methods of analytical prediction/kenbun usage.
Considering Yamato hasn't shown the capability of using counters or skills similar to it and mainly relies on blocking or clashing in combat I'm not sure she could do it here especially against such a fast attack.
Also, besides with the Thunder Bagua how is she superior to Zoro in speed? Her hybrid scales to Hybrid Kaidou who is faster than his base form. But for Zoro his reactions could perceive King with his flame off in both base & zoan forms who are FTE to Zoro's combat speed which could intercepted Base Mom and Kaidou and kept up with King in base and zoan forms.
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Why are you arguing about Zoro? There are like a million actual Zoro threads to do that in.
DaMonkeMan
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Because we need to know if Yamato is faster than him.
GodlyCharmander
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I dunno about that speed debate. Kaidou's Thunder Bagua is a whole level above King's, putting them in isolation, of course, as he can almost speedblitz Luffy, who has a much better precognition than Zoro's. Base Yamato should be faster than that, even considering how her weakened self could keep up with Gear 2nd Luffy, which is fast enough to dodge Thunder Bagua outright from a Hybrid Kaidou.
I dunno about the relation between Zoro and Luffy in the speed scaling chain, but Yamato's reaction speed can keep up with things several tiers above Base King's speed, thus his FTE self shouldn't be that much faster than Hybrid Yamato's reactions at all.
About the fight, Yamato can't freeze King's flames, but she can put it out with her breathing attack, which has a higher AP than King. She is also able to quite literally smack the flame away with her NPI. Plus, it's dubious if Flame-On King's inferior AP won't be parried by literally every single attack Yamato goes for, as her reactions are outright faster than Base King's speed by a very large margin.
If Yamato can connect a Hao Infused Attack to Flame-off King, she does massive damage, or even wins if she hits him in the head. King, on the other hand, would need to chip away Yamato's stamina, which is massive as she can take a beating from Kaidou even when handcuffed, and she has done so for years.
I believe it's more likely for Yamato to win this, thus, I cast my vote on her.
I dunno about the relation between Zoro and Luffy in the speed scaling chain, but Yamato's reaction speed can keep up with things several tiers above Base King's speed, thus his FTE self shouldn't be that much faster than Hybrid Yamato's reactions at all.
About the fight, Yamato can't freeze King's flames, but she can put it out with her breathing attack, which has a higher AP than King. She is also able to quite literally smack the flame away with her NPI. Plus, it's dubious if Flame-On King's inferior AP won't be parried by literally every single attack Yamato goes for, as her reactions are outright faster than Base King's speed by a very large margin.
If Yamato can connect a Hao Infused Attack to Flame-off King, she does massive damage, or even wins if she hits him in the head. King, on the other hand, would need to chip away Yamato's stamina, which is massive as she can take a beating from Kaidou even when handcuffed, and she has done so for years.
I believe it's more likely for Yamato to win this, thus, I cast my vote on her.
Eminiteable
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She doesn't scale to that version of Luffy in speed, she scales to Post-Udon Gear 2nd which is faster than a base Luffy who down scales from Zoan Kaidou.
- Post-Udon Base Luffy downscales from Zoan Kaidou and eventually grew faster to match him as an equal, his reactions downscale from Base Kaidou's thunder bagua, his gear 4th scales to Zoan Kaidou.
- Post-Enma Training Zoro can intercept Big Mom and base Kaidou, his reactions scale to attacks from Hybrid Kaidou and Big Mom's Homies, with Asura he matched Hybrid Kaidou although we don't seem to treat Asura as a speed amp.
- Post-Mink Medicine Zoro is relative to Base King (Who can tag Zoan Marco who's relative to Big Mom w/) and grew faster to the point he can keep up with Zoan King, his reactions scale to King w/ his flame off in base & Zoan forms who's FTE to Zoro's combat speed.
DaMonkeMan
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I agree with all of this but what does FTE and NPI stand for btw? Sorry if I sound stupid. Also, I wonder how King will get past her defense, she has:
ACoC which probably helps you defend yourself but I'm not entirely sure
Armament, forgot if it's advanced or not but it's still good enough armament.
Ice armor, arguably one of her greatest defense moves, as it completely shielded her from a Thunder Bagua, and combined with the other two defense moves she can use, plus blocking with her Kanabo, I doubt King could really get to her. King uses flames to thaw the ice armor and then attack? Smart! But she has ice breath that countered a bolo breath, so I don't think it'd be too useful. Plus she can withstand being near Kazenbo, a giant fire ball, and fight against it. Also, we don't know the level of it, but she has kenbunshoku, so that MIGHT be useful. After all she, along with the scabbards,could at least tell an admiral was coming to Wano to find Luffy ( honestly saved his ass since he would get blasted by Luffy but that isn't my point simply a funny observation ) so I imagine it's fine.
GodlyCharmander
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Based on this,
Hybrid Yamato's reactions ~ Hybrid Kaidou's Thunder Bagua > FTE > Hybrid Kaidou's combat speed > Base Kaidou's Thunder Bagua > FTE => Base Luffy's Reaction Speed ~ Base Kaidou's combat speed ~ Big Mom ~ Hybrid Marco
Post-Hao Zoro's reactions ~ Flame Off King > FTE > Pre-Hao Zoro's reactions/combat speed ~ Zoan King > Base King ~ Hybrid Marco ~ Big Mom.
The chains aren't that different. The gap between each is debatable, but TBs might be higher due to almost blitzing an Advanced Kenbun user who isn't far behind Base Kaidou. Wouldn't the speed of a Hybrid Thunder Bagua be able to connect a hit eventually? Yamato has a lot of ways to outlast and reduce damage from Flame Off, I still believe she is capable of defeating King more times than not.
GodlyCharmander
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DaMonkeMan
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Thanks a lot.
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Not sure about this, Base Luffy's combat speed was able to keep up somewhat with Hybrid (at the very least he didn't struggle to follow his movements) while he barely avoided the base thunder bagua with his reactions even when he was prepared for it and reading the future. I think it would be more like this:
