J.M. DeMatteis (Marvel Cosmology Split)

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

As some of you may understand I have been advocating with Ultima after this tiering system revision was being applied that DeMatteis's story isn't very congruent with the main Cosmology. While authors like Hickman, Ewing, and many others seem to at least follow a certain contunity with their storytelling by incorporating the works of others, that can't really be said for DeMatteis. J.M. DeMatteis usually always writes his story specific to his belief and on story that focuses on “Creation” does it really show.

Thus, this thread is intended to split J.M. DeMatteis's work from the main Marvel continuity and @Ultima_Reality will be in charge of overseeing the change in the main system rating for Marvel after this change.

J.M. DeMatteis heavily focuses on elements that he knows from his journey in life. This is a big example of his “God” character as a being that is not meant to be tied to just the comics, but a holistic fountainhead that is not tethered to just one religion though it's heavily Hindu-based. Now, J.M. DeMatteis writing is very flowery and hard to understand especially when he was experimenting more with the Cosmology. This means some interpretation can be put for these scans.

Worlds(Parallel Universes/Dimensions):​

In the Cosmology, Creation is split into levels or layers on different planes of existence. The most obvious one is the material plane/world in which Zenn-La is a prime example of a primary level of reality, a materialistic world that is an illusion to the higher realms. (Silver Surfer Vol.3 #140)

• There are infinity of universes across the Macrocosmos(another word for the whole of the Multiverse). (Silver Surfer Vol.3 #142)
• The smallest aspect of Reality is the opposite of the Macrocosmos is called the Microcosmos/Sub-Atomica though intra-Universal continuum can access the Equiverse. (Silver Surfer Vol.3 #143)
• Beneath the physical plane of Reality is a plane of Quantum energy, a world connect to the Nexus and a focal point to many worlds. (Silver Surfer Vol.3 #141)
• Each dreamed folded upon another dream, each world as just thoughts in a larger thought, and each containing smaller thought repeating ad infinitum. (Silver Surfer Vol.3 #140)
• Each Dream is just a dream of another and that each Reality has more skin than a snake, a new skin becomes a new dream, that becomes another illusion pushing down layers and layers of Dream a the lineage of men digs deeper in the illusion and all infinite dreams contained within the Creator’s dream. (Man-Thing Vol.3 #7)
• Each Reality described as a holograms and the number of realities as infinite holograms folded with another on different level of consciousness. (Silver Surfer Vol.3 #141)

Tiering: Given that there are infinite amounts of universes with their own space-time and there’s layers of transcendence between realities/dimensions, this would make the whole of the material plane anywhere from High 1-B(without R>F) to 1-A+(with R>F).

Higher Realms(Subtle and Mental):​

These realms are higher aspect of Reality and just like the previous mirror layers within the dream. As everything is a dream within a larger dream counting up as there are spiritual path. (Silver Surfer Vol.3 #135)

• In this level of Reality beyond the mortal plane of Existence(Gross) you’re in realms of entire thoughts where matter is rather energy and the mind can compose of many powerful feats. (Silver Surfer Vol.3 #137)
• On a subtle level layers of the Implicate Theory all time and moments simultaneously exist across the Quantum layers of Reality. (Silver Surfer Vol.3 #139)
• Astral Planes that can convey journeys across the Nexus. To places of pure mind and some even to spiritual existence where all Souls turn to the sublime Oneness that underlines duality. Entire Heaven and more where Souls are our energy only looking to God and as many Heavens as there are spiritual paths.
• Chtohn realm exists as a place beyond place and in time beyond time. Where he is understood as the underbelly of Creation and concepts alike merely starch the surface of this immense being. (Doctor Strange: Sorcerer Supreme Vol.1 #90)
• That even in these realms would you find worlds in grains of sand, skins of layers of dreams unfolding endlessly, with infinity at the palm of your hand, and heaven in a flower bloom(reference to Auguries of Innocence by William Blake). (Marc Spector: Moon Knight Vol.1 #33)

Tiering: The higher realms or more so the realms of thoughts which are the next level of consciousness(there’s four) transcends anything below it and trivializing it in size. High 1-A for these spiritual realms.

Nexus of Reality:​

The interconnect point of Creation also known as the OM point. Which links all worlds, universes, and dimensions existing on every level of Creation. Its destruction would also be catastrophic since that destruction will lead into all of the layers of Creation to collapse. (Spider-Man Annual 1999)

• The Flordia Marshlands in the key of the Nexus as the guardian: Man-Thing guards it. The place exists between now and then, past and future, existence and non-existence. This is because Man-Thing was originally and consciously Ted Sallis until in possession of the first man in the lineage of men: Adam K’ad-Mon whom is the Father of the Dreamer as oppose to the Mother: Cleito(He was born from her loins as they are intertwined as oversee the Dream) and later Ellen Sallis. Adam is the ancient father of the Fallen Star and is the sole guardian of the truth he shared in union with Ellen as a union beyond conception. Even having a powerful child name Job Burke whose could reshape the Nexus and possibly the entire Dream. (Man-Thing Vol.3 #4)
• It’s figuratively described as the Soul of Creation itself. That if the Scrier or his minion gets control of it then all the dreams of the Dream of Creation and all its levels would be controlled by the user become Omnipresent and all powerful. The powerful pull and collapse of the Nexus could undo everything in Existence and fall back into Oblivion cosmic sea of nothing. (Spider-Man Annual 1999)
• The shattered Nexus threaten all levels of existence and all the worlds connected to it. Even a piece of it gleamed so bright it created a shrinking city that seemed like Heaven and could eternally be supported by just a fragment. (Strange Tales Vol.4 #1)
• The Nexus is also described as a doorway with each door opening into a myriad of potential possibilities. (Daydreamers Vol.1 #2)

Tiering: The Nexus of all Realities is High 1-A due to being the connection point to all the universe, worlds, and dimensions. It needs to exist for every plane of existence and level of reality to exist and is the very Soul of Creation itself.

The Illusion/Dream/Creation(Eternity, Maya, Cleito): ​

All of Creation or the whole of Reality is nothing more than an illusion dreamed by the Creator, hirself. That all levels of Reality is a progression to realize that the Dream and the Dreamer are one and the same with God, in our own essence is that we are God. Creation takes form depending on the specific story, but they’re all “Illusions.” (Silver Surfer Vol.3 #139)

• Maya: Maya is the Queen of Illusions and the embodiment of the Illusion itself. She's toys and prances with people to be live in her illusive tricks to preserve her existence. She's afraid of the Golden Age that the Lords of Shamballa are trying to let other ascends to as all will fall into Oblivion for that to happen. She will play tricks to deceive anyone and is the female Cosmos embodiment of deceitfulness. (Marvel Graphic Novel: Doctor Strange: into ShambalIa #26)
• Eternity: Eternity is a male embodiment of the Cosmos itself. He's described as the total encompassing body of Creation itself seeing all his inner workings as just pieces of his thought. When Dormmamu managed to beat him and usurp his position, he became pretty much Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent. Becoming the very conscious Cosmoa itself and all his vast level of Reality. (Defenders Vol.3 #2)
• Cleito: The Atlantian Queen of Neptune. Though her origin story and power are far greater. She is the great mother of the Dreamer and the wife of the first man: Adam K’ad-Mon. From her loins did the first man come as the originator of the song of Creation which is almost as old as the Book and the Staff. Her powers far exceed the other Fallen Stars and lure people into endless tales of illusions with her captivating beauty. She's known as the female aspect of God as opposed to Adam being the male representation. (Man-Thing Vol.3 #8)
• The Creator hirself after awakening itself to learn again of hirself decided to Dream of Creation as a dream after an endless slumber of its own unconscious(the Void/Oblivion). When it does it forms duality: Light and Darkness, Life and Death, Love and Hate, Male and Female, etc…The Creator hirself brought forth the staff of Creation and from that staff of Light did Creation take form and shape. When it did that formed the Fallen Stars embodying their divine thoughts in the drama play of Creation. The Book entails Creation since its beginningless beginning, the Staff being older and more powerful than the Fallen Stars, and Oneness birthing duality and dreaming of it. The Fallen Stars being thoughts and emotions embodied can see through the veils of illusion and are not subjected to Creational laws. (Man-Thing Vol.3 #2)

Tiering: Maya, Eternity, Cleito, the Staff, the Book, and the Fallen Stars are all High 1-A. All of them are direct aspects of God hirself and know that all Creation is just an illusion(some willing to accept it). They scale to the entirety of the Dream or even above being the Apexes of the Creational hierarchy. Lords of Shamballa either fall on this tier or are merged together with God, but most likely High 1-A+.

Oblivion(The Void/Sea of Nothing/God’s Unconscious): ​

Oblivion is the Void personified as the breath between life and death, death and rebirth, and all of the Creation cycle. He isn't lord of Darkness or Chaos, but non-being itself as the Void that preceded Creation and where all Creation will return and drown to when it is time for the Creator to sleep. He's true form is non-existence itself and gazing upon would erase anyone. The formless sea of nothing created an aspect of God that made infinity have a limit and formless to have form. (Iceman Vol.1 #3)

• Oblivion represents total nothingness as he embodies the concept of non-existence where the Dream was made when God dreamed of it all. He’s beyond the Scrier, Galactus, Maya, and all those who haven't reached True Reality. Even the Scrier feared the total annihilation of everything that Oblivion represent. (Mighty Thor Annual #1)
• Oblivion is stated to be incapable of entering the Multiberse without causing catastrophe especially since to reach the Golden Age of humanity then the Universe would drown in fire, in the Mahapralaya into Oblivion. Even the Amasteu-Mimaboshi the Japanese god of chaos and evil during the Chaos War event is just a small glimpse of the infinity he is and even the Scrier, the Other, and Galactus war was said to be greater with Oblivion watching without worry or concern. (Iceman Vol.1 #4)

Tiering: Oblivion being the representation of the nothingness and the Void before Creation. He outscales all the previous entities and is possibly the Apex of Cosmology giving him the higher-end of High 1-A+.

As powerful as Oblivion is and as paradoxical as he may be. He does have one superior and that superior has his weakness: Love. His superior is the being that not only radiates Love but is it. (Iceman Vol.1 #4)

God(Divine Creator/The Dreamer):​

God or the Creator is the Oneness behind all things in Creation and the cosmic emptiness from which Self is the consciousness of its true power. That all of Creation is nothing but a dream to the Creator and Oblivion is simply an aspect of god as is anything in Creation. He is the Dream and the Deamer, Plan and Planner, Trick, and Trickster, and is beyond all illusions as the sole being that truly exists and only him alone. That everyone is God just living in the Dream. (Marvel Graphic Novel: Doctor Strange: Into Shamballa #26)

Tiering: God is 0, as he is the Oneness that underlines all duality, beyond Creation and Void, contains existence and non-existence. Everything is nothing but a dream to God in all levels and he transcends the entire hierarchy into insignificance.

Reasoning for the split: ​

J.M. DeMatteis takes his inspiration and route from a Hindu Cosmology which isn't related to Judaism much less the mystical side of Judaism: Kabbalah as the Four Worlds have no correlation in Matteis. Al Ewing structures Cosmology as narrative layers as opposed to dream layers and the level of consciousness. His God design is literally based on Adi Shankara's view of Nirguna Brahman and the Advaita Vedanta school of teaching where Creation is an illusion and that there's a non-dual being as the true reality from which Creation emanates through Maya.

• The main Cosmology is based on the mystical teaching of Kabbalah. J.M. DeMatteis is purely Hinduism as he said the only character from Kabbalah is “Adam K’ad-Mon” which we see that the Primordial Man in Ewing Cosmology is Adam Brasher has much contrast to the former. One’s the archetype for Creation to come while the other is the progenitor of the lineage of men and the guardian of the Nexus in the Flordian swamps.
• Creation in Ewing Cosmology is a narrative based on Keter(Assiyah) being the final part of the lowest hierarchy. The Divine Creator is meant to be the Paraatma/Parabrahman equivalent which the One Above All isn't the Ein Sof equivalent. Even then Ein Sof and Brahman are not the same beings and from different teachings with different perspectives on the Universe. Kabbalah rejects the teaching that humans are God living in his own creations since that's blasphemous to them.
• J.M. DeMatteis bases his story always the same and introduces characters that are incongruent or completely ignored by anyone else. Hence why he never even refers to “One Above All” as a name especially since that said “person” is not actually ineffable, immutable, or unsurpassable.
• The Fallen Star fits nowhere since they can't even work in conjunction with the One Above All or else they scale above the entire hierarchy except for the House if we were to introduce them in the main Cosmology.
• The basis of Creation in J.M. DeMatteis is not the reincarnation of Creation embodied by Firmaments. Rather it would always come and will end at the end in MahaPralaya and those who do strip the veils hiding the True Creator’s face would ascend into a Golden Age, which is not universally shared by the main Cosmology. The only similarity in that part is the Mystery is a journey to unveil God’s face but Ein Sof is not the same as the Oversoul concept that all Souls are God living in his dream and return into his Oneness and back throughout countless reincarnations until all Souls ascend. This is a completely different view from Kabbalah.
• Cleito and Adam K’ad-Mon’s relation isn't at all evident in the main Cosmology, much less Job Burke being completely ignored as the next person to have the power to become the Divine Dreamer. The Nexus also is a focal point and treated as the OM point which has somehow not made it in the main Cosmology. Other than some old Uncanny X-Men comics with Jean entering the White Hot Room and learning that the M’Kraan Crystal is a Nexus of All Reality and later said to contain the dwelling place of the Phoenix, which was then changed as the White Hot Room is a transcendental plane and the healing medicine of the Universe.
• The One Above All has an alter ego of the One Below All contradicts the nature of God as a being that's Love itself.
• The origin story starts with God forming an aspect called the Creator in his dream creating duality, and letting his souls have limits from their original existence where they're one with God. This has nothing to do with the main Cosmology.
• Oblivion is directly the mind of God specially his unconsciousness that relies on the Creator as the being that contains existence and non-existence. He is uncreated, eternal, and not subjected to the laws of the Universe unlike Hickman's depiction of end-of-time Nihilism that is opposed by the Tribunal judgment.
• Maya fits nowhere unless we consider it Eternity's female counterpart but such concepts aren't introduced in most of the main story.
• Illusion or the main Reality is just a level of consciousness as such Gross, Sutble, and Mental Planne which is not all presented as the main source of leveling in Creational hierarchy in the main Cosmology.
• Also, God is independent of everything hence why he would receive 0 which can't happen if he's one and the same with the One Above All.
• The concept of the Quantum Sea or the Ocean of Dreams is the collective unconscious capable of making dreams of the entire hierarchy below doesn't fit well with the main Cosmology.
• J.M. DeMatteis takes his works from the teaching of the spiritual avatar, Meher Baba. Ewing doesn't at all base or elude such figures given he either doesn't know him or he doesn't use his teaching.
• The idea that God is unconscious and not interactive but only through Maya, illusions, and his avatars of ages doesn't really link with the One Above All.
• God being used as a Magician was a nice analogy that depicts that he made Reality as his trick and all forms of illusion while the One Above All demiurgic fires near the primordial time have no effect on being like the Mother of Horrors.
• Every Soul being God is a major part of the story. That everyone in their core essence is God just living in the dream and being ignorant of it. Which isn't how Kabbalah works.

I would like to add something for those who keep pointing out that his stories are written outside just his work.

• This is true but it holds no real value. For example, his stories in DC like Green Lantern, Spectre, and Larfleeze clearly, the events that transpired are mentioned outside his own stories. Yet, we takes his view of the Cosmology over small things like this.

The Cosmology aspect is important because they're pretty much identical in every way in Marvel and DC and are only separated by name.

Example:

Divine Presence and Divine Creator also called God is the central figure in his Cosmology. A Oneness that underlines duality, precedes form, and always acts through some sort of Avatar. Literally, in Justice League Dark “Brahma-Dass” refers to God as a Magician that pulled Reality as his trick, and guess what? In Doctor Strange story they mentioned the concept of the Golden Age which surfaces across Silver Surfer, Man-Thing, and Moon Knight which in DC is mentioned several times as well. Into Shamballa literally calls God, a Magician, and that Reality is his trick, which is a shared element in his magical side of stories. Also, in an older Marvel story by DeMatteis, there's a character literally called “Shiva-Dass” as someone equal to “Brahma-Dass.”

Creation stories is exactly the same. God was unconscious then he had an urge then came everything: duality, consciousness, and Creation.

• We have Oblivion describing Creation as coming from him and will return to him. Kind of weird since that's the exact description of the Sea of Brahma. Also, Mahapralaya and Pralaya have been referenced in both stories in the same manner: the dissolution of the Universe.
• In Shamballa, Stephen Strange mentions Krishna's flute that will bring about Sleep. This idea was part of the “Night of Brahma” storyline in Doctor Fate, a vampire named Andrew Bennet played it to bring about Mahapralaya. Also, mentioned again in the Last One about the Krishna flute. The older story involving Shiva-Dass mentions the same flute as well. The weird thing is his Strange and Fate stories were almost released near each other in publication and that's not to mention that he was employed by both companies and went back and forth with his scripts between the companies.
• Maya is in both companies. The same logic, the same name, and the same premise.

So, for the people telling me not to compare the two is one of my reasons. Then how are DeMatteis getting away with a composite Marvel Cosmology, but not DC? When his work is literally recycled and the same? The compression is very fair and very much should be a part of my reasoning.

DeMatteis Thoughts:​

I've talked with DeMatteis for a while and read a lot of his ideas from his personal blogs, interviews, and even statements across social media. It was never my intention to ask anything “VSBW” related.

However, he makes it clear that he doesn't fully actually follow conventional things rather his heart and from Meher Baba. This is the main reason that all his work is the same across any story. He jokes around several times about editorial and how collaborators keep telling do his “own thing” and his personal “ideas.”

He literally tells us in his personal blog that he bends, twists, and makes things up that the editorial and his collaborator workaround:

There was no ego involved when Keith and I worked together. The basic plots, the rock-solid building blocks of our stories, were all Giffen—but I had the freedom to bend and twist those stories any way I chose. Someone else might have taken offense—“How dare you alter my brilliant creative vision?!”—but Keith always encouraged me to follow my muse, adding new plot-lines and character bits via the narration and dialogue. He, in turn, would build on what I’d done, always surprising me with his extraordinary leaps of imagination. It was, as I’ve often said, like a game of tennis: We’d hit the ball back and forth, and, as we played, the stories evolved into something more than either of us could have ever achieved on our own.

In l987, Keith Giffen and I revamped the character of Dr. Fate for a mini-series and then, some months later, I continued the story in an ongoing series, wonderfully illustrated, with both humor and humanity, by Shawn McManus. It’s a rare occasion when you can work on a preexisting DC or Marvel character and be allowed to completely stamp it with your own unique, and very personal, vision, but that’s what I got to do with Dr. Fate— weaving together the supernatural, sit-com silliness, superhero action, romance, Eastern philosophy, infantile toilet jokes and Serious Musings On The Nature Of Existence. Not an easy mix, but Shawn always met, and often transcended, whatever visual challenges I threw his way. If this was a combined list, Fate might be sitting right behind Moonshadow and Brooklyn Dreams at the top.

I wrote my script from Dan’s layouts, but I was free to change things, make shifts, as I went along. Dan recently unearthed lots of material that he’d saved and found some of my ownlayouts—and I use the term loosely!—that I’d do if, in the writing, my script deviated from what Dan had already done. This way he had a sense of what I was seeing in my head as I was writing. I also added some art notes to the script itself, something I’d forgotten until Dan showed me the old pages.

One of the things that fascinates me about Strange is that his story is first and foremost a spiritual one. It’s hidden behind magic spells, other dimensions and visual pyrotechnics, but Stephen Strange was a broken man who found redemption at the feet of an Eastern spiritual master. You can't get more overtly spiritual than that! That aspect of the character was sometimes lost and I wanted to do a story that put the emphasis squarely on the spiritual, while still giving the readers a big, cosmic adventure that addressed the mystical side of life and the inner journey that we’re all on, as individuals and as a planet. Dan shared many of the same goals and had other elements that were important to him and the final story was a blend of our two visions. As for how we put the book together…

Some people see comics as movies on paper. I never have. I think comics is a unique form that embraces film, poetry, music and prose. The form can be anything we want it to be. I especially wanted to explore the line between prose and comics: telling a story with the pure visual impact we expect from the form, but also using prose to dive deeper, expand the storytelling out in ways that traditional comics storytelling can’t. I was doing something similar with Moonshadow, which I was writing at the same time I was writing Shamballa. ( In fact Dan and Jon J Muth were sharing a studio at the time.)

Agree: @Antvasima @VeryGoofyToddler @Elizio33 @DarkDragonMedeus @RigelBR7 @Hirotoswnn1x @Trigger @Eseseso @The_2nd_Existential_Seed @Yokoahh5743

Disagree: @Alonik @ProfectusInfinity @NHTkenshin2 @Roirr @BestMGQScalerEver

Neutral: @Hasty12345

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

Threads not done yet

 

[Trigger]

As some of you may understand I have been advocating with Ultima after this tiering system revision was being applied that DeMatteis's story isn't very congruent with the main Cosmology. While authors like Hickman, Ewing, and many others seem to at least follow a certain contunity with their storytelling by incorporating the works of others, that can't really be said for DeMatteis. J.M. DeMatteis usually always writes his story specific to his belief and on story that focuses on “Creation” does it really show.

Thus, this thread is intended to split J.M. DeMatteis's work from the main Marvel continuity and @Ultima_will be in charge of overseeing the change in the main system rating for Marvel after this change.

J.M. DeMatteis heavily focuses on elements that he knows from his journey in life. This is a big example of his “God” character as a being that is not meant to be tied to just the comics, but a holistic fountainhead that is not tethered to just one religion though it's heavily Hindu-based. Now, J.M. DeMatteis writing is very flowery and hard to understand especially when he was experimenting more with the Cosmology. This means some interpretation can be put for these scans.

Worlds(Parallel Universes/Dimensions):​

In the Cosmology, Creation is split into levels or layers on different planes of existence. The most obvious one is the material plane/world in which Zenn-La is a prime example of as a primary level of reality, a materialistic world that is an illusion to the higher realms. (Silver Surfer Vol.3 #140)

• There are infinity of universes across the Macrocosmos(another word for the whole of the Multiverse). (Silver Surfer Vol.3 #142)
• The smallest aspect of Reality is the opposite of the Macrocosmos is called the Microcosmos/Sub-Atomica though intra-Universal continuum can access the Equiverse. (Silver Surfer Vol.3 #143)
• Beneath the physical plane of Reality is a plane of Quantum energy, a world connect to the Nexus and a focal point to many worlds. (Silver Surfer Vol.3 #141)
• Each dreamed folded upon another dream, each world as just thoughts in a larger thought, and each containing smaller thought repeating ad infinitum. (Silver Surfer Vol.3 #140)
• Each Dream is just a dream of another and that each Reality has more skin than a snake, a new skin becomes a new dreams, that becomes another illusion pushing down layers and layers of Dream a the lineage of men digs deeper in the illusion and all infinite dreams contained within the Creator’s dream. (Man-Thing Vol.3 #7)
• Each Reality described as a holograms and the number of realities as infinite holograms folded with another on different level of consciousness. (Silver Surfer Vol.3 #141)

Tiering: Given that there are infinite amounts of universes with their own space-time and there’s layers of transcendence between realities/dimensions, this would make the whole of the material plane anywhere from High 1-B(without R>F) to 1-A+(with R>F).

Higher Realms(Subtle and Mental):​

These realms are higher aspect of Reality and just like the previous mirror layers within the dream. As everything is a dream within a larger dream counting up as there are spiritual path. (Silver Surfer Vol.3 #135)

• In this level of Reality beyond the mortal plane of Existence(Gross) you’re in realms of entire thoughts where matter is rather energy and the mind can compose of many powerful feats. (Silver Surfer Vol.3 #137)
• On a subtle level layers of the Implicate Theory all time and moments simultaneously exist across the Quantum layers of Reality. (Silver Surfer Vol.3 #139)
• Astral Planes that can convey journeys across the Nexus. To places of pure mind and some even to spiritual existence where all Souls turn to the sublime Oneness that underlines duality. Entire Heaven and more where Souls are our energy only looking to God and as many Heavens as there are spiritual paths.
• Chtohn realm exists as a place beyond place and in time beyond time. Where he is understood as the underbelly of Creation and concepts alike merely starch the surface of this immense being. (Doctor Strange: Sorcerer Supreme Vol.1 #90)
• That even in these realms would you find worlds in grains of sand, skins of layers of dreams unfolding endlessly, with infinity at the palm of your hand, and heaven in a flower bloom(reference to Auguries of Innocence by William Blake). (Marc Spector: Moon Knight Vol.1 #33)

Tiering: The higher realms or more so the realms of thoughts which are the next level of consciousness(there’s four) transcends anything below it and trivializing it in size. High 1-A for these spiritual realms.

Nexus of Reality:​

The interconnect point of Creation also known as the OM point. Which links all worlds, universes, and dimensions existing on every level of Creation. Its destruction would also be catastrophic since that destruction will lead into all of the layers of Creation to collapse. (Spider-Man Annual 1999)

• The Flordia Marshlands in the key of the Nexus as the guardian: Man-Thing guides it. The place exists between now and then, past and future, existence and non-existence. This is because Man-Thing was originally and consciously Ted Sallis until in possession of the first man in the lineage of men: Adam K’ad-Mon whom is the Father of the Dreamer as oppose to the Mother: Cleito(He was born from her loins as they are intertwined as oversee the Dream) and later Ellen Sallis. Adam is the ancient father of the Fallen Star and is the sole guardian of the truth he shared in union with Ellen as a union beyond conception. Even having a powerful child name Job Burke whose could reshape the Nexus and possibly the entire Dream. (Man-Thing Vol.3 #4)
• It’s figuratively described as the Soul of Creation itself. That if the Scrier or his minion gets control of it then all the dreams of the Dream of Creation and all its levels would be controlled by the user become Omnipresent and all powerful. The powerful pull and collapse of the Nexus could undo everything in Existence and fall back into Oblivion cosmic sea of nothing. (Spider-Man Annual 1999)
• The shattered Nexus threaten all levels of existence and all the worlds connected to it. Even a piece of it gleamed so bright it created a shrinking city that seemed like Heaven and could eternally be supported by just a fragment. (Strange Tales Vol.4 #1)
• The Nexus is also described as a doorway with each door opening into a myriad of potential possibilities. (Daydreamers Vol.1 #2)

Tiering: The Nexus of all Realities is High 1-A due to being the connection point to all the universe, worlds, and dimensions. It needs to exist for every plane of existence and level of reality to exist and is the very Soul of Creation itself.

The Illusion/Dream/Creation(Eternity, Maya, Cleito): ​

All of Creation or the whole of Reality is nothing more than an illusion dreamed by the Creator, hirself. That all levels of Reality is a progression to realize that the Dream and the Dreamer are one and the same with God, in our own essence is that we are God. Creation takes form depending on the specific story, but they’re all “Illusions.” (Silver Surfer Vol.3 #139)

• Maya: Maya is the Queen of Illusions and the embodiment of the Illusion itself. She's toys and prances with people to be live in her illusive tricks to preserve her existence. She's afraid of the Golden Age that the Lords of Shamballa are trying to let other ascends to as all will fall into Oblivion for that to happen. She will play tricks to deceive anyone and is the female Cosmos embodiment of deceitfulness. (Marvel Graphic Novel: Doctor Strange: into ShambalIa #26)
• Eternity: Eternity is a male embodiment of the Cosmos itself. He's described as the total encompassing body of Creation itself seeing all his inner workings as just pieces of his thought. When Dormmamu managed to beat him and usurp his position, he became pretty much Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent. Becoming the very conscious Cosmoa itself and all his vast level of Reality. (Defenders Vol.3 #2)
• Cleito: The Atlantian Queen of Neptune. Though her origin story and power are far greater. She is the great mother of the Dreamer and the wife of the first man: Adam K’ad-Mon. From his loins did the first man come as the originator of the song of Creation which is almost as old as the Book and the Staff. Her powers far exceed the other Fallen Stars and lure people into endless tales of illusions with her captivating beauty. She's known as the female aspect of God as opposed to Adam being the male representation. (Man-Thing Vol.3 #8)
• The Creator hirself after awakening itself to learn again of hirself decided to Dream of Creation as a dream after an endless slumber of its own unconscious(the Void/Oblivion). When it does it forms duality: Light and Darkness, Life and Death, Love and Hate, Male and Female, etc…The Creator hirself brought forth the staff of Creation and from that staff of Light did Creation take form and shape. When it did that formed the Fallen Stars embodying their divine thoughts in the drama play of Creation. The Book entails Creation since its beginningless beginning, the Staff being older and more powerful than the Fallen Stars, and Oneness birthing duality and dreaming of it. The Fallen Stars being thoughts and emotions embodied can see through the veils of illusion and are not subjected to Creational laws. (Man-Thing Vol.3 #2)

Tiering: Maya, Eternity, Cleito, the Staff, the Book, and the Fallen Stars are all High 1-A+. All of them are direct aspects of God hirself and know that all Creation is just an illusion(some willing to accept it). They scale to the entirety of the Dream or even above being the Apexes of the Creational hierarchy. Lords of Shamballa either fall on this tier or are merged together with God, but most likely High 1-A+.

Oblivion(The Void/Sea of Nothing/God’s Unconcious): ​

Oblivion is the Void personified as the breath between life and death, death and rebirth, and all of the Creation cycle. He isn't lord of Darkness or Chaos, but non-being itself as the Void that preceded Creation and where all Creation will return and drown to when it is time for the Creator to sleep. He's true form is non-existence itself and gazing upon would erase anyone. The formless sea of nothing created an aspect of God that made infinity have a limit and formless to have form. (Iceman Vol.1 #3)

• Oblivion represents total nothingness as he embodies the concept of non-existence where the Dream was made when God dreamed of it all. He’s beyond the Scrier, Galactus, Maya, and all those who haven't reached True Reality. Even the Scrier feared the total annihilation of everything that Oblivion represent. (Mighty Thor Annual #1)
• Oblivion is stated to be incapable of entering the Multiberse without causing catastrophe especially since to reach the Golden Age of humanity then the Universe would drown in fire, in the Mahapralaya into Oblivion. Even the Amasteu-Mimaboshi the Japanese god of chaos and evil during the Chaos War event is just a small glimpse of the infinity he is and even the Scrier, the Other, and Galactus war was said to be greater with Oblivion watching without worry or concern. (Iceman Vol.1 #4)

Tiering: Oblivion being the representation of the nothingness and the Voud before Creation. He outscales all the previous entities and is possibly the Apex of Cosmology giving him the higher-end of High 1-A+.

As powerful as Oblivion is and as paradoxical as he may be. He does have one superior and that superior has his weakness: Love. His superior is the being that not only radiates Love but is it. (Iceman Vol.1 #4)

God(Divine Creator/The Dreamer):​

God or the Creator is the Oneness behind all things in Creation and the cosmic emptiness from which Self is the consciousness of its true power. That all of Creation is nothing but a dream to the Creator and Oblivion is simply an aspect of god as is anything in Creation. He is the Dream and the Deamer, Plan and Planner, Trick and Trickster, and is beyond all illusions as the sole being that truly exists and on by him alone. That everyone is God just living in the Dream. (Marvel Graphic Novel: Doctor Strange: Into Shamballa #26)

Tiering: God is 0, as he is the Onness that underlines all duality, beyond Creation and Void, contains existence and non-existence. Everything is nothing but a dream to God in all levels and he transcends the entire hierarchy into insignificance.

Blud wasted no time. I'll give it a read then(not like my opinion matters). Good luck Todd.

 

[Hasty12345]

Before I attempt to help evaluate this, are all the chapters written by DeMatteis himself, if not how are we deciding what contributes to his cosmology?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Before I attempt to help evaluate this, are all the chapters written by DeMatteis himself, if not how are we deciding what contributes to his cosmology?

All of it was written by him. Most as the writer himself with some as the plot/script writer.

 

[Eseseso]

How does this affect the current High 1-B/Low 1-A stuff in the accepted Marvel cosmology?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

How does this affect the current High 1-B/Low 1-A stuff in the accepted Marvel cosmology?

I asked Ultima and he said it could be either or. I would assume it is lower, but that's on Ultima.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Why exacly does Marvel need a cosmology split? I mean I understand that maybe he is abit inconsistent but does it really affect the Marvel cosmology? You are even bringing up a tier 0 character that is above TOAA who is usually considered as "THE GOD" why would this new character affect TOAA who is lower than him?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Why exacly does Marvel need a cosmology split? I mean I understand that maybe he is abit inconsistent but does it really affect the Marvel cosmology? You are even bringing up a tier 0 character that is above TOAA who is usually considered as "THE GOD" why would this new character affect TOAA who is lower than him?

The reasoning is there in the OP. This shouldn't have a massive impact on the main Marvel Cosmology since it remains High 1-A, but some things may be lowered. You have to ask Ultima in that regard.

Defenders, Hulk, and many more stories depict the One Above All as not an ineffable, unsurpassable, or immutable being, but God from Matteis, however, does. Thus the Divine Creator will get its own profile with a rating of 0.

 

[Karllkraft]

Bu, kabul edilen Marvel kozmolojisindeki mevcut Yüksek 1-B/Düşük 1-A olaylarını nasıl etkiler?

Ultima'ya sordum ve o da ya da olabileceğini söyledi. Daha düşük olduğunu varsayardım ama bu Ultima'da.

Where do these topics take place?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Where do these topics take place?

Marvel Comics Cosmology (World Hierarchy)

The following is a page dedicated to outlining the cosmology of Marvel Comics, focused primarily on presenting each of its layers in an hierarchical fashion, as well as exploring other important details of the setting. For the purposes of these explanations, at least a cursory knowledge of...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Eseseso]

Bump

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Bump. Based on the knowledge I have of these events (considering I've read his material for over 2 years. No that isn't an exaggeration) , everything seems to make sense to me. I do have some scaling options for the top tiers (statements about Job Burke, what we found out about what would've happened in Strange Tales IV, Peter Parker Annual 1999, etc) but that can maybe be saved for another thread after this is eventually applied, unless you want to get this all situated in a singular thread.

 

[Trigger]

Worlds(Parallel Universes/Dimensions):​

In the Cosmology, Creation is split into levels or layers on different planes of existence. The most obvious one is the material plane/world in which Zenn-La is a prime example of as a primary level of reality, a materialistic world that is an illusion to the higher realms. (Silver Surfer Vol.3 #140)

• There are infinity of universes across the Macrocosmos(another word for the whole of the Multiverse). (Silver Surfer Vol.3 #142)
• The smallest aspect of Reality is the opposite of the Macrocosmos is called the Microcosmos/Sub-Atomica though intra-Universal continuum can access the Equiverse. (Silver Surfer Vol.3 #143)
• Beneath the physical plane of Reality is a plane of Quantum energy, a world connect to the Nexus and a focal point to many worlds. (Silver Surfer Vol.3 #141)
• Each dreamed folded upon another dream, each world as just thoughts in a larger thought, and each containing smaller thought repeating ad infinitum. (Silver Surfer Vol.3 #140)
• Each Dream is just a dream of another and that each Reality has more skin than a snake, a new skin becomes a new dreams, that becomes another illusion pushing down layers and layers of Dream a the lineage of men digs deeper in the illusion and all infinite dreams contained within the Creator’s dream. (Man-Thing Vol.3 #7)
• Each Reality described as a holograms and the number of realities as infinite holograms folded with another on different level of consciousness. (Silver Surfer Vol.3 #141)

Tiering: Given that there are infinite amounts of universes with their own space-time and there’s layers of transcendence between realities/dimensions, this would make the whole of the material plane anywhere from High 1-B(without R>F) to 1-A+(with R>F).

High 1-B: High Hyperverse level
Characters or objects who can significantly affect, create and/or destroy infinite-dimensional space. Characters who exceed infinite-dimensional realms without qualifying for any of the further tiers, or who can meddle with spaces whose dimension is uncountably infinite, should have a "+" (High 1-B+) modifier next to their tier.

Note that, for High 1-B+, an explicit affirmation of "uncountably infinite dimensions" is not always needed. For example, if a verse has an infinite-dimensional realm and also a higher-order space existing above and beyond it, which is not clarified to transcend dimensions entirely and/or to be ontologically above the lesser realm, such a space would be at that level.
1-A: Outerverse level
Characters or objects residing in higher states of existence surpassing material composition as a whole, and who are therefore completely unreachable and inaccessible to any and all extensions of the aforementioned structures. Their superiority over such realms, as such, is purely "qualitative"; based entirely on the ontological quality and nature of their existence, rather than any quantitative or numerical principle.

A way to explain their superiority over "physical composition" would be to bring attention to the fact that all of the previous tiers can be expressed as the union of constructs of lower tiers. For example, a 4-dimensional spacetime continuum is at most Low 2-C. However, an inaccessible cardinal's worth of such spacetimes is well into High 1-B+. In spite of the extremely large gap in size between the individuals comprising this totality and the totality itself, the latter is simply the sum of all the former, and as such both ultimately reside in the same state of existence, and have continuity of composition within that state.

Likewise, even the Von Neumann Universe (As well as larger structures still) is still simply the union of many elements that, individually, are smaller than itself. And the same applies to any mathematical space whatsoever.

A 1-A character or realm, on the other hand, fundamentally surpasses lower states of existence, with their sheer superiority not being expressible as the sum, union or permutation of anything in these lesser states. They, in other words, transcend lower existences to the point that those vanish into nothingness.[note 2]

This tier can be extended into higher levels in the same vein as 1-C and 1-B. And should a character or object scale to infinitely many of such levels, they should have a "+" modifier (1-A+) placed next to their tier.
By the above, makes sense, agreed.

Higher Realms(Subtle and Mental):​

These realms are higher aspect of Reality and just like the previous mirror layers within the dream. As everything is a dream within a larger dream counting up as there are spiritual path. (Silver Surfer Vol.3 #135)

• In this level of Reality beyond the mortal plane of Existence(Gross) you’re in realms of entire thoughts where matter is rather energy and the mind can compose of many powerful feats. (Silver Surfer Vol.3 #137)
• On a subtle level layers of the Implicate Theory all time and moments simultaneously exist across the Quantum layers of Reality. (Silver Surfer Vol.3 #139)
• Astral Planes that can convey journeys across the Nexus. To places of pure mind and some even to spiritual existence where all Souls turn to the sublime Oneness that underlines duality. Entire Heaven and more where Souls are our energy only looking to God and as many Heavens as there are spiritual paths.
• Chtohn realm exists as a place beyond place and in time beyond time. Where he is understood as the underbelly of Creation and concepts alike merely starch the surface of this immense being. (Doctor Strange: Sorcerer Supreme Vol.1 #90)
• That even in these realms would you find worlds in grains of sand, skins of layers of dreams unfolding endlessly, with infinity at the palm of your hand, and heaven in a flower bloom(reference to Auguries of Innocence by William Blake). (Marc Spector: Moon Knight Vol.1 #33)

Tiering: The higher realms or more so the realms of thoughts which are the next level of consciousness(there’s four) transcends anything below it and trivializing it in size. High 1-A for these spiritual realms.

High 1-A: High Outerverse level
Characters or objects who transcend 1-A characters in the same vein that 1-A characters transcend the rest of the system. That is to say: If there is a hierarchy of 1-A layers, each of which operates within the same framework, with the same "algorithm" dictating the difference between them, a High 1-A character would transcend the framework entirely, and instead operate on a different, higher hierarchy, governed by another, likewise higher algorithm. In other words, whereas 1-A is a qualitative superiority, High 1-A represents a "meta"-qualitative superiority.

Similarly to 1-A, this tier can be generalized to higher levels of existence. Just as 1-A encompasses qualitative hierarchies, so too can there be meta-qualitative hierarchies. However, there can also be "meta"-meta-qualitative superiorities surpassing such hierarchies, operating on hierarchies of their own, as well as "meta"-meta-meta-qualitative superiorities, where the same process repeats, and so on and so forth.

The apex of this tier, represented also by a "+" modifier (High 1-A+), corresponds to characters whose power encompasses meta-qualities, meta-meta-qualities, meta-meta-meta-qualities, meta-meta-meta-meta-qualities, and any and all conceivable extensions of this process. They, as it were, are on the scale of the highest forms of Modal realism and Type IV Multiverses, more specifically corresponding to the space of all logically possible worlds ("Logical space"), being characters who either have the ability to actualize arbitrarily large worlds, or embody the framework of such worlds itself.

That said, characters who embody the collection of all possible worlds properly speaking may be rightly considered more powerful than those that can simply create arbitrarily big possible worlds.

Agreed.

these spiritual realms.

Nexus of Reality:​

The interconnect point of Creation also known as the OM point. Which links all worlds, universes, and dimensions existing on every level of Creation. Its destruction would also be catastrophic since that destruction will lead into all of the layers of Creation to collapse. (Spider-Man Annual 1999)

• The Flordia Marshlands in the key of the Nexus as the guardian: Man-Thing guides it. The place exists between now and then, past and future, existence and non-existence. This is because Man-Thing was originally and consciously Ted Sallis until in possession of the first man in the lineage of men: Adam K’ad-Mon whom is the Father of the Dreamer as oppose to the Mother: Cleito(He was born from her loins as they are intertwined as oversee the Dream) and later Ellen Sallis. Adam is the ancient father of the Fallen Star and is the sole guardian of the truth he shared in union with Ellen as a union beyond conception. Even having a powerful child name Job Burke whose could reshape the Nexus and possibly the entire Dream. (Man-Thing Vol.3 #4)
• It’s figuratively described as the Soul of Creation itself. That if the Scrier or his minion gets control of it then all the dreams of the Dream of Creation and all its levels would be controlled by the user become Omnipresent and all powerful. The powerful pull and collapse of the Nexus could undo everything in Existence and fall back into Oblivion cosmic sea of nothing. (Spider-Man Annual 1999)
• The shattered Nexus threaten all levels of existence and all the worlds connected to it. Even a piece of it gleamed so bright it created a shrinking city that seemed like Heaven and could eternally be supported by just a fragment. (Strange Tales Vol.4 #1)
• The Nexus is also described as a doorway with each door opening into a myriad of potential possibilities. (Daydreamers Vol.1 #2)

Tiering: The Nexus of all Realities is High 1-A due to being the connection point to all the universe, worlds, and dimensions. It needs to exist for every plane of existence and level of reality to exist and is the very Soul of Creation itself.

High 1-A: High Outerverse level
Characters or objects who transcend 1-A characters in the same vein that 1-A characters transcend the rest of the system. That is to say: If there is a hierarchy of 1-A layers, each of which operates within the same framework, with the same "algorithm" dictating the difference between them, a High 1-A character would transcend the framework entirely, and instead operate on a different, higher hierarchy, governed by another, likewise higher algorithm. In other words, whereas 1-A is a qualitative superiority, High 1-A represents a "meta"-qualitative superiority.

Similarly to 1-A, this tier can be generalized to higher levels of existence. Just as 1-A encompasses qualitative hierarchies, so too can there be meta-qualitative hierarchies. However, there can also be "meta"-meta-qualitative superiorities surpassing such hierarchies, operating on hierarchies of their own, as well as "meta"-meta-meta-qualitative superiorities, where the same process repeats, and so on and so forth.

The apex of this tier, represented also by a "+" modifier (High 1-A+), corresponds to characters whose power encompasses meta-qualities, meta-meta-qualities, meta-meta-meta-qualities, meta-meta-meta-meta-qualities, and any and all conceivable extensions of this process. They, as it were, are on the scale of the highest forms of Modal realism and Type IV Multiverses, more specifically corresponding to the space of all logically possible worlds ("Logical space"), being characters who either have the ability to actualize arbitrarily large worlds, or embody the framework of such worlds itself.

That said, characters who embody the collection of all possible worlds properly speaking may be rightly considered more powerful than those that can simply create arbitrarily big possible worlds.
Same with this, agreed.

The Illusion/Dream/Creation(Eternity, Maya, Cleito): ​

All of Creation or the whole of Reality is nothing more than an illusion dreamed by the Creator, hirself. That all levels of Reality is a progression to realize that the Dream and the Dreamer are one and the same with God, in our own essence is that we are God. Creation takes form depending on the specific story, but they’re all “Illusions.” (Silver Surfer Vol.3 #139)

• Maya: Maya is the Queen of Illusions and the embodiment of the Illusion itself. She's toys and prances with people to be live in her illusive tricks to preserve her existence. She's afraid of the Golden Age that the Lords of Shamballa are trying to let other ascends to as all will fall into Oblivion for that to happen. She will play tricks to deceive anyone and is the female Cosmos embodiment of deceitfulness. (Marvel Graphic Novel: Doctor Strange: into ShambalIa #26)
• Eternity: Eternity is a male embodiment of the Cosmos itself. He's described as the total encompassing body of Creation itself seeing all his inner workings as just pieces of his thought. When Dormmamu managed to beat him and usurp his position, he became pretty much Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent. Becoming the very conscious Cosmoa itself and all his vast level of Reality. (Defenders Vol.3 #2)
• Cleito: The Atlantian Queen of Neptune. Though her origin story and power are far greater. She is the great mother of the Dreamer and the wife of the first man: Adam K’ad-Mon. From his loins did the first man come as the originator of the song of Creation which is almost as old as the Book and the Staff. Her powers far exceed the other Fallen Stars and lure people into endless tales of illusions with her captivating beauty. She's known as the female aspect of God as opposed to Adam being the male representation. (Man-Thing Vol.3 #8)
• The Creator hirself after awakening itself to learn again of hirself decided to Dream of Creation as a dream after an endless slumber of its own unconscious(the Void/Oblivion). When it does it forms duality: Light and Darkness, Life and Death, Love and Hate, Male and Female, etc…The Creator hirself brought forth the staff of Creation and from that staff of Light did Creation take form and shape. When it did that formed the Fallen Stars embodying their divine thoughts in the drama play of Creation. The Book entails Creation since its beginningless beginning, the Staff being older and more powerful than the Fallen Stars, and Oneness birthing duality and dreaming of it. The Fallen Stars being thoughts and emotions embodied can see through the veils of illusion and are not subjected to Creational laws. (Man-Thing Vol.3 #2)

Tiering: Maya, Eternity, Cleito, the Staff, the Book, and the Fallen Stars are all High 1-A+. All of them are direct aspects of God hirself and know that all Creation is just an illusion(some willing to accept it). They scale to the entirety of the Dream or even above being the Apexes of the Creational hierarchy. Lords of Shamballa either fall on this tier or are merged together with God, but most likely High 1-A+.

High 1-A: High Outerverse level
Characters or objects who transcend 1-A characters in the same vein that 1-A characters transcend the rest of the system. That is to say: If there is a hierarchy of 1-A layers, each of which operates within the same framework, with the same "algorithm" dictating the difference between them, a High 1-A character would transcend the framework entirely, and instead operate on a different, higher hierarchy, governed by another, likewise higher algorithm. In other words, whereas 1-A is a qualitative superiority, High 1-A represents a "meta"-qualitative superiority.

Similarly to 1-A, this tier can be generalized to higher levels of existence. Just as 1-A encompasses qualitative hierarchies, so too can there be meta-qualitative hierarchies. However, there can also be "meta"-meta-qualitative superiorities surpassing such hierarchies, operating on hierarchies of their own, as well as "meta"-meta-meta-qualitative superiorities, where the same process repeats, and so on and so forth.

The apex of this tier, represented also by a "+" modifier (High 1-A+), corresponds to characters whose power encompasses meta-qualities, meta-meta-qualities, meta-meta-meta-qualities, meta-meta-meta-meta-qualities, and any and all conceivable extensions of this process. They, as it were, are on the scale of the highest forms of Modal realism and Type IV Multiverses, more specifically corresponding to the space of all logically possible worlds ("Logical space"), being characters who either have the ability to actualize arbitrarily large worlds, or embody the framework of such worlds itself.

That said, characters who embody the collection of all possible worlds properly speaking may be rightly considered more powerful than those that can simply create arbitrarily big possible worlds.

Agreed. Just like Ultima stated. "Think of a tier 0 as the writer, and high 1-a+ as the book itself"

Oblivion(The Void/Sea of Nothing/God’s Unconcious): ​

Oblivion is the Void personified as the breath between life and death, death and rebirth, and all of the Creation cycle. He isn't lord of Darkness or Chaos, but non-being itself as the Void that preceded Creation and where all Creation will return and drown to when it is time for the Creator to sleep. He's true form is non-existence itself and gazing upon would erase anyone. The formless sea of nothing created an aspect of God that made infinity have a limit and formless to have form. (Iceman Vol.1 #3)

• Oblivion represents total nothingness as he embodies the concept of non-existence where the Dream was made when God dreamed of it all. He’s beyond the Scrier, Galactus, Maya, and all those who haven't reached True Reality. Even the Scrier feared the total annihilation of everything that Oblivion represent. (Mighty Thor Annual #1)
• Oblivion is stated to be incapable of entering the Multiberse without causing catastrophe especially since to reach the Golden Age of humanity then the Universe would drown in fire, in the Mahapralaya into Oblivion. Even the Amasteu-Mimaboshi the Japanese god of chaos and evil during the Chaos War event is just a small glimpse of the infinity he is and even the Scrier, the Other, and Galactus war was said to be greater with Oblivion watching without worry or concern. (Iceman Vol.1 #4)

Tiering: Oblivion being the representation of the nothingness and the Void before Creation. He outscales all the previous entities and is possibly the Apex of Cosmology giving him the higher-end of High 1-A+.

As powerful as Oblivion is and as paradoxical as he may be. He does have one superior and that superior has his weakness: Love. His superior is the being that not only radiates Love but is it. (Iceman Vol.1 #4)

Agreed for obvious reasons.

God(Divine Creator/The Dreamer):​

God or the Creator is the Oneness behind all things in Creation and the cosmic emptiness from which Self is the consciousness of its true power. That all of Creation is nothing but a dream to the Creator and Oblivion is simply an aspect of god as is anything in Creation. He is the Dream and the Deamer, Plan and Planner, Trick and Trickster, and is beyond all illusions as the sole being that truly exists and on by him alone. That everyone is God just living in the Dream. (Marvel Graphic Novel: Doctor Strange: Into Shamballa #26)

Tiering: God is 0, as he is the Oneness that underlines all duality, beyond Creation and Void, contains existence and non-existence. Everything is nothing but a dream to God in all levels and he transcends the entire hierarchy into insignificance.

Tier 0: Boundless
Entities who are completely transcendent over any and all forms of hierarchical extension. More specifically: They not only encompass the collection of all possible "qualities" represented by High 1-A+, but also exceed it utterly, existing beyond any and all distinctions between ontologies and any division between objects. They are nondual, changeless, indivisible, ineffable, self-sufficient and completely unsurpassable. See this page for more information on both this tier and the preceding one.
Agreed, it seems(at face value) to cover the properties of the monad.

 

[Hasty12345]

him

All of it was written by him. Most as the writer himself with some as the plot/script writer.

Awesome, Thank you.

Now for the fun part:

Material Plane

Spoiler: Worlds and Dimensions

In the Cosmology, Creation is split into levels or layers on different planes of existence. The most obvious one is the material plane/world in which Zenn-La is a prime example of as a primary level of reality, a materialistic world that is an illusion to the higher realms. (Silver Surfer Vol.3 #140)

Aside from the fact these panels read like the ramblings of a madman, if higher plans of reality are coherent with this description of the "primary level of reality"/"material world" being an illusion to the aforementioned higher planes, there's nothing inherently wrong with it.

There are infinity of universes across the Macrocosmos(another word for the whole of the Multiverse). (Silver Surfer Vol.3 #142)

I agree.

The smallest aspect of Reality is the opposite of the Macrocosmos is called the Microcosmos/Sub-Atomica though intra-Universal continuum can access the Equiverse. (Silver Surfer Vol.3 #143)

This is cool, how do we scale this "microverse"? I imagine this is the kind of thing that causes Tiktok scalers to claim "every Marvel human is outerversal"

• Beneath the physical plane of Reality is a plane of Quantum energy, a world connect to the Nexus and a focal point to many worlds. (Silver Surfer Vol.3 #141)

The scans aren't supporting the claim here, unless there's context I am missing, the idea the quantum plane is a nexus and/or focal point of many worlds is not present in these scans.

Each dreamed folded upon another dream, each world as just thoughts in a larger thought, and each containing smaller thought repeating ad infinitum. (Silver Surfer Vol.3 #140)

The obvious problem with this scan (at least in isolation) is the guy is literally a madman and the page itself makes him out to be a madman. I'm not sure how reliable this scan on its own is, is there more context where SS goes and visits one of these universes or are we shown at any point these mentioned universes are perceived as thoughts/dreams?

Each Dream is just a dream of another and that each Reality has more skin than a snake, a new skin becomes a new dreams, that becomes another illusion pushing down layers and layers of Dream a the lineage of men digs deeper in the illusion and all infinite dreams contained within the Creator’s dream. (Man-Thing Vol.3 #7)

I'm beginning to see a pattern in these texts. Due to the sheer amount of these kinds of statements, I lean towards the interpretation that they are literal and the cosmology is predicated on this dream-dreamer logic. However, I find it hard to believe much of this is literal when reading these scans in isolation from the stories they're written in. They almost seem like they're written from the perspective of someone on psychedelic drugs, making it very hard to ascertain their literalness. Thus far, of the scans I've read at this point in my response, unless I've missed something I haven't encountered anything that convinces me that these dreamt universes actually exist and this illusionary cosmological system actually exists - which appears to be the point.

Each Reality described as a holograms and the number of realities as infinite holograms folded with another on different level of consciousness. (Silver Surfer Vol.3 #141)

I see, so this green bug chick kind of carries the rest of the scans. Assuming there are no blatant anti-feats I rescind my previous comments about this illusion stuff being non-literal, but because it took me a long time to write, I'm not deleting it .

Does this guy not know what 10 times 10,000,000 is???

Tiering: Given that there are infinite amounts of universes with their own space-time and there’s layers of transcendence between realities/dimensions, this would make the whole of the material plane anywhere from High 1-B(without R>F) to 1-A+(with R>F).

Spoiler: Worlds and Dimensions Evaluation

After the long journey of reading these scans and writing my thoughts, I have concluded that the author needs to get off the gear. That being said, I think by the end of it, I am somewhat tentatively convinced this "illusionary reality" cosmology does indeed exist and can be tiered as layers of 1-A reality-fiction differences (RFD). My one hold off is you haven't really displayed the possible anti-feats, I agree in principle that this could be in the 1-A levels, however, I also recognise the Silver Surfer has probably demonstrated hundreds of anti-feats that would disqualify this being a true RFD. I haven't read these comics beyond what you have shown, so I cannot prove that there are anti-feats personally, so I will just have to take your word on it for now.

My other minor nitpick is whether we take "infinite" to be literal here. The green bug chick mentions tens of tens of millions as does another scan, which may indicate the "infinite" isn't literal. The literalness of 100 million realities also doesn't make sense as there are alone 7 billion people on Earth, but there is mention of ad infinitum and the process of dreams within dreams would allow for that.

All in all my personal rating would be:

2-B: ad infinitum realities within realities (if there are anti-feats to true RFD)
1-A: ad infinitum layers (if there are no anti-feats)

I'm skipping 1-B because none of these scans proves dimensional levels and this new system seems to be "all or nothing", you're either 1-A via RFD or you're not tier 1.

Higher Realms
This might put a target on my back...

Spoiler: Higher Realms

I'm not going to beat around the bush, I don't want to sound rude, and mind you I am not an expert on Marvel comics at all. But none of these scans line up with the claims you're making. I do not see how these mental and spiritual realms are inherently above the illusionary realms to such a degree that would entail a whole meta-RFD equivalent jump over 1-A realms to justify high 1-A, or even low 1-C if taking my earlier evaluations into account.

I'm sure your arguments make sense to people who are experts on Marvel and obviously, these scans omit decades of context and you can only show so much, but to an outsider, the scans in this section mean next to nothing.

Nexus of Reality

Spoiler: Nexus of Reality

This one is simple, I agree the Nexus of Realities has a RFD/RFD equivalent over the preceding cosmology, it appears all of reality is but a shadow of the Nexus etc etc.

I think it should be at least 1-A based on my prior evaluations, High 1-A based on yours.

The rest of this stuff goes well beyond what I am able to evaluate, but what you've written makes sense, as for how it tiers, I have no idea. The Creator would be tier 0 regardless of how you evaluate the rest of the cosmology based on how I've read tier 0 works now (could be wrong), and high 1-A+ would be contingent on whether or now what's below it is at least high 1-A right? (i.e., you can't have a high 1-A+ with a low 2-C cosmology but you could in theory have a monad for any cosmology reach tier 0? at least that's how I understand it atm).

Great job anyway, I enjoyed reading the arguments, but I have learned DeMatteis is not an author I enjoy reading at all

 

[Eseseso]

I feel like it may be important to discuss what the non-demattis cosmology's tiering will be after they lose the Demattis stuff

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Nexus of Reality

Spoiler: Nexus of Reality

This one is simple, I agree the Nexus of Realities has a RFD/RFD equivalent over the preceding cosmology, it appears all of reality is but a shadow of the Nexus etc etc.

I think it should be at least 1-A based on my prior evaluations, High 1-A based on yours.

The rest of this stuff goes well beyond what I am able to evaluate, but what you've written makes sense, as for how it tiers, I have no idea. The Creator would be tier 0 regardless of how you evaluate the rest of the cosmology based on how I've read tier 0 works now (could be wrong), and high 1-A+ would be contingent on whether or now what's below it is at least high 1-A right? (i.e., you can't have a high 1-A+ with a low 2-C cosmology but you could in theory have a monad for any cosmology reach tier 0? at least that's how I understand it atm).

Great job anyway, I enjoyed reading the arguments, but I have learned DeMatteis is not an author I enjoy reading at all

High 1-A+ is mostly cosmology independent if you represent what the tier 0 can create or can actualize any logical possibility but can also be present as a cosmology thing. There is no need for High 1-A structures.

 

[Hasty12345]

High 1-A+ is mostly cosmology independent if you represent what the tier 0 can create or can actualize any logical possibility but can also be present as a cosmology thing. There is no need for High 1-A structures.

Ahh, I knew tier 0 was cosmology-independent but I have no qualms with high 1-A+ if experts don't, I don't really understand it yet.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Bump. Based on the knowledge I have of these events (considering I've read his material for over 2 years. No that isn't an exaggeration) , everything seems to make sense to me. I do have some scaling options for the top tiers (statements about Job Burke, what we found out about what would've happened in Strange Tales IV, Peter Parker Annual 1999, etc) but that can maybe be saved for another thread after this is eventually applied, unless you want to get this all situated in a singular thread.

This is really just for the Cosmology aspect. The individual profile scaling can wait. However, at that point, I prefer to leave it to others to clean that aspect up.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

This is cool, how do we scale this "microverse"? I imagine this is the kind of thing that causes Tiktok scalers to claim "every Marvel human is outerversal"

To be frank, I don't think it needs to be scaled. If we're to then it'd be less than what people originally anticipated. So it wouldn't be something like “Every human is Outerversal!”

The scans aren't supporting the claim here, unless there's context I am missing, the idea the quantum plane is a nexus and/or focal point of many worlds is not present in these scans.

It's more so that every plane is connected through a Quantum energy field as the literal Creation comes from the Quantum Sea and we briefly saw how Surfer sees worlds rising from them. I think the wording on my behalf is throwing people off.

I'm beginning to see a pattern in these texts. Due to the sheer amount of these kinds of statements, I lean towards the interpretation that they are literal and the cosmology is predicated on this dream-dreamer logic. However, I find it hard to believe much of this is literal when reading these scans in isolation from the stories they're written in. They almost seem like they're written from the perspective of someone on psychedelic drugs, making it very hard to ascertain their literalness. Thus far, of the scans I've read at this point in my response, unless I've missed something I haven't encountered anything that convinces me that these dreamt universes actually exist and this illusionary cosmological system actually exists - which appears to be the point.

To the people in the dream and still ignorant of its illusion, it's quite real to them. The “only” thing that is truly real is God and hir alone. Anything else is being dreamed by him. This idea is heavy in Hinduism.

After the long journey of reading these scans and writing my thoughts, I have concluded that the author needs to get off the gear. That being said, I think by the end of it, I am somewhat tentatively convinced this "illusionary reality" cosmology does indeed exist and can be tiered as layers of 1-A reality-fiction differences (RFD). My one hold off is you haven't really displayed the possible anti-feats, I agree in principle that this could be in the 1-A levels, however, I also recognise the Silver Surfer has probably demonstrated hundreds of anti-feats that would disqualify this being a true RFD. I haven't read these comics beyond what you have shown, so I cannot prove that there are anti-feats personally, so I will just have to take your word on it for now.

My other minor nitpick is whether we take "infinite" to be literal here. The green bug chick mentions tens of tens of millions as does another scan, which may indicate the "infinite" isn't literal. The literalness of 100 million realities also doesn't make sense as there are alone 7 billion people on Earth, but there is mention of ad infinitum and the process of dreams within dreams would allow for that.

I tend to see this a lot with authors. What I believe is that the former “infinite” is really true in the context of what they're referring to. When they switch it up, I feel they're just trying to emphasize the size of it in a numerical quantity type of trope, or could be that they see no difference between big that “millions” and “infinite” are just big terms. Infinite should remain as the basis of what said thing we’re referring to.

 

[Hasty12345]

To be frank, I don't think it needs to be scaled. If we're to then it'd be less than what people originally anticipated. So it wouldn't be something like “Every human is Outerversal!”

I didn't expect anyone on the forum to make that argument, I was more so commenting on this being the kind of stuff that some scalers use to make those claims.

It's more so that every plane is connected through a Quantum energy field as the literal Creation comes from the Quantum Sea and we briefly saw how Surfer sees worlds rising from them. I think the wording on my behalf is throwing people off.

I see, in that case I can see where you were going with that, idk if that changes how I'd scale it but I get where you're coming from.

To the people in the dream and still ignorant of its illusion, it's quite real to them. The “only” thing that is truly real is God and hir alone. Anything else is being dreamed by him. This idea is heavy in Hinduism.

Is THIS whole CRT a dream as well?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I'm not going to beat around the bush, I don't want to sound rude, and mind you I am not an expert on Marvel comics at all. But none of these scans line up with the claims you're making. I do not see how these mental and spiritual realms are inherently above the illusionary realms to such a degree that would entail a whole meta-RFD equivalent jump over 1-A realms to justify high 1-A, or even low 1-C if taking my earlier evaluations into account.

I'm sure your arguments make sense to people who are experts on Marvel and obviously, these scans omit decades of context and you can only show so much, but to an outsider, the scans in this section mean next to nothing.

I don't mind the skepticism especially since the scans aren't the best for newgoers. The idea is that the whole of Creation is a dream within a dream within a dream….etc. The idea is that the metaphysical part of the Cosmology omits that idea, so it starts from 1-A. The central point is that the Gross plane is the lowest level of consciousness, but the metaphysical planes are tied to the next level of consciousness where anything can happen with the mind. To enter these planes would one have to transcend the material world and deplore all physicality, desire, mundane concepts, etc….

 

[Hasty12345]

I don't mind the skepticism especially since the scans aren't the best for newgoers. The idea is that the whole of Creation is a dream within a dream within a dream….etc. The idea is that the metaphysical part of the Cosmology omits that idea, so it starts from 1-A. The central point is that the Gross plane is the lowest level of consciousness, but the metaphysical planes are tied to the next level of consciousness where anything can happen with the mind. To enter these planes would one have to transcend the material world and deplore all physicality, desire, mundane conceits, etc….

I'll leave it to more experienced Marvel scalers to make a proper evaluation, but thanks for not immediately shutting me down with a rude demeanour. I appreciate you can see where I'm coming from.

 

[Antvasima]

I am personally fine with a cosmology split, but do not know if the tiering is accurate.

@Ultima_Reality @Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepmeThree @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @Catzlaflame @Lightning_XXI @Deagonx @Vasco @Eseseso @LuciferX @Excellence616 @ByAsura @Emirp sumitpo @Quantu @IdiosyncraticLawyer @PrinceofPein @LordTracer @ProfectusInfinity @M3X_2.0 @Maverick_Zero_X @Dark-Carioca @ObberGobb

What do you think about this?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I would hold off until the Tiering System revisions are formally applied for this.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. Agreed.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Yes. Agreed.

Yeah, but anyone with knowledge of the tiering system changes can evaluate if they want.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Another proposal for the Metaphysical. We could push it down to 1-A+ for not having total meta-transcendence needed for High 1-A. Everything else remains the same.

Unless someone has a good scan that I missed.

 

[Yuhady123]

F**k the tier, is all of his work cant now be with the main Cosmology or only some of them can still apply to it?

Example: This was currently used to explained the nature of the White Hot Room and this regarding R>F infinite hierarchies of universes that trancends and encompasses each other infinitely.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

F**k the tier, is all of his work cant now be with the main Cosmology or only some of them can still apply to it?

This is a standalone Cosmology shift for the author. So, all his works will be here and it won't be used in the main continuity.

Example: This was currently used to explained the nature of the White Hot Room and this regarding R>F infinite hierarchies of universes that trancends and encompasses each other infinitely.

The scans do not work.

 

[Minos_the_Judge]

Finally, Tier 0 Marvel.

 

[Hirotoswnn1x]

Makes sense, to me the scan High1-B looks pretty good, it's the Infinite layer universe and the metaphysical realm like the Astral plane agrees to be High1-A.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Finally, Tier 0 Marvel.

DC is next!

 

[ObberGobb]

I'm not knowledgeable enough on his writings to offer any valuable help on this I think. I do have a couple questions though: what will this split look like page-wise? For characters like Eternity, will this be separate keys or separate profiles? I think it should also be made clear on profiles and the verse page very specifically what stories apply to this cosmology as opposed to the standard one.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I'm not knowledgeable enough on his writings to offer any valuable help on this I think. I do have a couple questions though: what will this split look like page-wise? For characters like Eternity, will this be separate keys or separate profiles? I think it should also be made clear on profiles and the verse page very specifically what stories apply to this cosmology as opposed to the standard one.

Good question. Nothing to worry about, though.

For the split profile cosmology, there will be an explanation with a similar sandbox to that of DC. Probably a section only for J.M. DeMatteis and his collaborator when writing certain stories.

As for the profiles. There will be keys for intertwining characters such as Eternity while the One Above All scans that pertain to Divine Creator will go to a completely different profile as I already made a thread about it here.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I was thinking about upgrading the Nexus and lowering Eternity, Maya, Cleito, and Fallen Stars by swapping places. The Nexus even its pigmented shadow can control all of Creation hence why Man-Thing and Ellen were scared that Outrider or the Scrier would control the Nexus. It is expressed as the Soul of Creation and nothing can survive if its destruction ensues which includes the Fallen Stars. It's quite clear even Dormmamu was able to replace Eternity as the soul-encompassing Creation, but the Nexus remains a constant.

They all can be High 1-A+ on the lower side while Oblivion is the Apex High 1-A+. If that's too much then we can lower Fallen Stars to High 1-A while we keep the Creation beings as High 1-A+(Cleito, Maya, Eternity). I recommend Job Burke and Franklin Richards as High 1-A+ because they hold so much power they can change the entirety of the Dream and affect the Nexus.

The Scrier, the Other, and Galactus will be High 1-A.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I was thinking about upgrading the Nexus and lowering Eternity, Maya, Cleito, and Fallen Stars by swapping places. The Nexus even its pigmented shadow can control all of Creation hence why Man-Thing and Ellen were scared that Outrider or the Scrier would control the Nexus. It is expressed as the Soul of Creation and nothing can survive if its destruction ensues which includes the Fallen Stars. It's quite clear even Dormmamu was able to replace Eternity as the soul-encompassing Creation, but the Nexus remains a constant.

They all can be High 1-A+ on the lower side while Oblivion is the Apex High 1-A+. If that's too much then we can lower Fallen Stars to High 1-A while we keep the Creation beings as High 1-A+(Cleito, Maya, Eternity). I recommend Job Burke and Franklin Richards as High 1-A+ because they hold so much power they can change the entirety of the Dream and affect the Nexus.

The Scrier, the Other, and Galactus will be High 1-A.

I agree. Even a fragment of the Nexus can allow someone to be one with God / All of Creation, so the entire thing being High 1-A+ as a minimum makes sense

Job Burke was described as being connected to a truth and consciousness beyond Ka’dmon's or the Fallen Stars’ Imagination (whether this is referring to the Divine Creator is anyone’s guess) .

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Job Burke was described as being connected to a truth and consciousness beyond Ka’dmon's or the Fallen Stars’ Imagination (whether this is referring to the Divine Creator is anyone’s guess) .

He should have a profile as he’s shown to deserve it. Maybe other than Oblivion and God, he’s next in line as the most powerful being. If we dwell into semantics then everyone at their core is God, but at the point, they lose their individuality thus God(Oneness/Allness) would remain the sole being as 0.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

I would hold off until the Tiering System revisions are formally applied for this.

Should we postpone this discussion until later?