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And there are these things.
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DC/Vertigo Cosmology Redo(Part 1 of 2)
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I have a small question: Zatanna from Justice League Dark, did she defeat Pralaya in her avatar form? And she will be High1-A?
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None of them scale from pralaya. Swamp thing key got removed ages ago
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Only possible 1A are lord of orders and chaos from demattis.
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She will not scale to High 1-A given all the things that had to happen.
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They’ll be High 1-A due to being duality and had the power to make Creation come and representing everything in Existence.
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What would the Shining Ones be? Zauriel and Matrix Supergirl have a few good showings. They're light beyond light and love beyond imagination as servants of God's will. Their existence being love itself. Zauriel in particular was also momentarily controlled by the Presence to show Hal Spectre to trust in the universe. The first parts being from Supergirl wings and the last being from Legends of the DC Universe #36.
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I’ll implement these AP justification once I’m auto confirmed by Ant.
The Presence(Yahweh):
Attack Potency: Outerverse Level(Yahweh is the father of Lucifer Morningstar and Michael Demiurgos and exists massively above them. He was the God of Creation and creator of Heaven, Hell, and the Silver City. He embodies all things in existence from the smallest atoms to the largest part of Creation as his will defines everything. He sits on the throne in Primum Mobile that extrudes in all parts of Creation and is the center of determination, he exists above the Endless, the Stars, the First Circle, and the Archangels)
Lucifer Morningstar:
Attack Potency: Outerverse Level(Lucifer Morningstar is the son of Yahweh and the brother of Michael Demiurgos. He is the grand architect of Hell and was once the captain of the Host. He exists above the Host of Heavens, the Endless, and was the bringer of light as he fashions the stars in Creation. He also made a Creation outside his father influence that contained his own created worlds, realms, and dimensions. He is the will from which the concept of form and space were shaped and infinity being a relative term from which he shapes any material to that degree. He also destroy the Logos, as the spiritual word that sing Creation into existence and sustain it in God’s name. He exists above the City of Stars, has more power than all the Hell resident combined, and could destroy the Silver City by commanding all the stars in Creation, to which said stars are threats to Creation)
Michael Demiurgos:
Attack Potency: Outerverse Level(Michael Demiurgos is the son of Yahweh and brother of Lucifer Morningstar. He is the Demiurge and second in command to his father, Yahweh. He is the creator of the light that made both Yahweh’s and Lucifer’s Creation and exist massively above the Host of Heaven and was the former commander. He was vested the Dunamis Demiurgos, God’s Power, which is a power capable of bringing a Cosmos from the endless, beginningless nothing. He’s power is the foundation in which all was created and can destroy all of Creation, if the vessel holding the power ever cracks or dies. He is the spark that expands forever, an ocean of power with no shores. He exist above the City of Stars, the Endless, and when pushed to anger can destroy Lucifer Morningstar. His power is capable of nourishing and sustaining everyone in Existence from concepts, to angels, and even ideas.
Gabriel Hornblower:
Attack Potency: Outerverse Level(Gabriel Hornblower is the son of Yahweh and brother to Lucifer Morningstar and Michael Demiurgos. He alongside his Demiurgic brother helps build the Universe under their father’s instruction. He help beat Lucifer rebellion and is often close in power with his brothers and has authority over the lesser angels as one of the Archons that were used as tools to help build Creation)
Mazikeen Morningstar(Morningstar Power):
Attack Potency: Outerverse Level(Mazikeen is the consort of Lucifer Morningstar. She was given the power by the Morningstar which brought out light and fire when the worlds were being formed. She with this power became the the ultimate authority in Hell and can bend reality and matter to any degree she wants)
Father Time:
Attack Potency: Outerverse Level(Time is the primordial motion that gave push to Creation. Alongside his partner, Night, made Creation possible; and all its possible versions. His realms exists outside the cause and effects, as those concepts are entirely disconnected from him. he exists above the retroactive power of dreams as he can view all versions of Creation as single ouroboros and view his children as nothing more than fictions of the Creation)
Mother Night
Attack Potency: Outerverse Level(Night is the nothingness from which the worlds emerged. She alongside her partner, Time, made Creation possible; and all its possible versions. She exists in a realm outside Creation, unbounded by dimensions, in unspace and untime. She is the devoid absence of light, dreams, information, and all possible life. She is the darkness from which exist beneath the worlds and untime will return to her)
The Jin En Mok(Cestis):
Attack Potency: Outerverse Level(The Jin En Mok are a group of formless beings that are tethered to a host to gain memory and the ability to tangibly work physically within the framework of Creation. They are Thou V’Vohu “without flesh and void.” Once Creation is brought to an end in the Void, is when the Jin En Mok can freely roam around in their true form which is said to be bigger than worlds. Cestis feels her naked body could collapse all of Creation as a side effect and in that form is unbounded by time, space, and causality. They came from the First Cosmos and survived its destruction due to very rare immorality, as they were old when Hevaen was young. In fact, they predate Heaven, Hell, demons, and God as beings of power without shape and will without limit)
Glory of the First Circle:
Attack Potency: Outerverse Level(The Glory is a member of the First Circle, who sets the rules and boundaries of the coming Creation. Shekinah is unaffected by the changes in the Book of Destiny after Morpheus brought the Universe back from collapsing into the Void. The rules set by the Council are adhered to by everyone including the Endless siblings and from there watch the Universe flow in the right course. Glory is an atemporal being that is seen as the head of the Marketplace with timeless knowledge of things and is implied to be above the Endless in authority)
The rest of the justification seems fine but these are the recommended changes for these specific characters.
The Presence(Yahweh):
Attack Potency: Outerverse Level(Yahweh is the father of Lucifer Morningstar and Michael Demiurgos and exists massively above them. He was the God of Creation and creator of Heaven, Hell, and the Silver City. He embodies all things in existence from the smallest atoms to the largest part of Creation as his will defines everything. He sits on the throne in Primum Mobile that extrudes in all parts of Creation and is the center of determination, he exists above the Endless, the Stars, the First Circle, and the Archangels)
Lucifer Morningstar:
Attack Potency: Outerverse Level(Lucifer Morningstar is the son of Yahweh and the brother of Michael Demiurgos. He is the grand architect of Hell and was once the captain of the Host. He exists above the Host of Heavens, the Endless, and was the bringer of light as he fashions the stars in Creation. He also made a Creation outside his father influence that contained his own created worlds, realms, and dimensions. He is the will from which the concept of form and space were shaped and infinity being a relative term from which he shapes any material to that degree. He also destroy the Logos, as the spiritual word that sing Creation into existence and sustain it in God’s name. He exists above the City of Stars, has more power than all the Hell resident combined, and could destroy the Silver City by commanding all the stars in Creation, to which said stars are threats to Creation)
Michael Demiurgos:
Attack Potency: Outerverse Level(Michael Demiurgos is the son of Yahweh and brother of Lucifer Morningstar. He is the Demiurge and second in command to his father, Yahweh. He is the creator of the light that made both Yahweh’s and Lucifer’s Creation and exist massively above the Host of Heaven and was the former commander. He was vested the Dunamis Demiurgos, God’s Power, which is a power capable of bringing a Cosmos from the endless, beginningless nothing. He’s power is the foundation in which all was created and can destroy all of Creation, if the vessel holding the power ever cracks or dies. He is the spark that expands forever, an ocean of power with no shores. He exist above the City of Stars, the Endless, and when pushed to anger can destroy Lucifer Morningstar. His power is capable of nourishing and sustaining everyone in Existence from concepts, to angels, and even ideas.
Gabriel Hornblower:
Attack Potency: Outerverse Level(Gabriel Hornblower is the son of Yahweh and brother to Lucifer Morningstar and Michael Demiurgos. He alongside his Demiurgic brother helps build the Universe under their father’s instruction. He help beat Lucifer rebellion and is often close in power with his brothers and has authority over the lesser angels as one of the Archons that were used as tools to help build Creation)
Mazikeen Morningstar(Morningstar Power):
Attack Potency: Outerverse Level(Mazikeen is the consort of Lucifer Morningstar. She was given the power by the Morningstar which brought out light and fire when the worlds were being formed. She with this power became the the ultimate authority in Hell and can bend reality and matter to any degree she wants)
Father Time:
Attack Potency: Outerverse Level(Time is the primordial motion that gave push to Creation. Alongside his partner, Night, made Creation possible; and all its possible versions. His realms exists outside the cause and effects, as those concepts are entirely disconnected from him. he exists above the retroactive power of dreams as he can view all versions of Creation as single ouroboros and view his children as nothing more than fictions of the Creation)
Mother Night
Attack Potency: Outerverse Level(Night is the nothingness from which the worlds emerged. She alongside her partner, Time, made Creation possible; and all its possible versions. She exists in a realm outside Creation, unbounded by dimensions, in unspace and untime. She is the devoid absence of light, dreams, information, and all possible life. She is the darkness from which exist beneath the worlds and untime will return to her)
The Jin En Mok(Cestis):
Attack Potency: Outerverse Level(The Jin En Mok are a group of formless beings that are tethered to a host to gain memory and the ability to tangibly work physically within the framework of Creation. They are Thou V’Vohu “without flesh and void.” Once Creation is brought to an end in the Void, is when the Jin En Mok can freely roam around in their true form which is said to be bigger than worlds. Cestis feels her naked body could collapse all of Creation as a side effect and in that form is unbounded by time, space, and causality. They came from the First Cosmos and survived its destruction due to very rare immorality, as they were old when Hevaen was young. In fact, they predate Heaven, Hell, demons, and God as beings of power without shape and will without limit)
Glory of the First Circle:
Attack Potency: Outerverse Level(The Glory is a member of the First Circle, who sets the rules and boundaries of the coming Creation. Shekinah is unaffected by the changes in the Book of Destiny after Morpheus brought the Universe back from collapsing into the Void. The rules set by the Council are adhered to by everyone including the Endless siblings and from there watch the Universe flow in the right course. Glory is an atemporal being that is seen as the head of the Marketplace with timeless knowledge of things and is implied to be above the Endless in authority)
The rest of the justification seems fine but these are the recommended changes for these specific characters.
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Angels should just be High 1-A, they're formed of God’s light and love. Being an aspect of the Creator's eternal ideas and thoughts. I like their depiction of Doctor Fate as well.
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Referring to issues 21 and 22 with Phantom Stranger in the 88 run? Yeah, Legends of the DC Universe does a nice callback to it with the "trust the universe and it'll take care of you" thing. Along with the Shining Ones popping back up in Supergirl Wings.
PrinceofPein
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Done everything I was asked to
Deleted member 30746
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You forgot to fix Destiny's durability. Moreover, the Basanos should not have a key at all. Other than that, the range of Mazikeen's base form should be unknown.
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Deleted member 30746
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There's a bit too much detail. But it's good I guess. Also, Yahweh did not create Hell.
PrinceofPein
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please check again, they have all been fixed
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Who did then?
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Just High 1-A. All possible worlds being High 1-A+ are reserved only for Pralaya.
Deleted member 30746
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Thanks.
Lucifer fired his will into the unbounded emptiness beneath heaven and thus built it.
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Are you referring to the Books of Magic? If so then I wouldn't consider it since Lucifer #75 shows us that Yahweh did indeed create Hell for Lucifer.
Deleted member 30746
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This is hinted at in most series, not just Books of Magic. Like Hellblazer. In Lucifer, we see that Yahweh clearly states his purpose, but I cannot say that he created the place. He is only interested in the mission of the place.
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He did, he gave Lucifer the realm. There's no other logical reason to assume “Hell” was naturally created, if Lucifer didn't even know of it and Yahweh had to state the purpose of it. Given the Abrahamic mythos credits God for creating Hell as a place for the fallen to go, the Lucifer series didn't stray away from that logic.
Deleted member 30746
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The concept of hell wasn't designed by him anyway, but he created this place and God knew it would happen. So I don't want to just use the Lucifer series, and as I said, it's implied a lot. First of the Fallen even told us that the concept of Hell came with Lucifer. It is obvious that Lucifer is the one who shaped the realm. This is Yahweh's indirect planning, as in the Silver City or all of Creation. It can never be said that he created this directly because he chose to teach this virtue to his children.
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Lucifer certainly shaped and influenced it as said by Christopher Rudd and the legions of Hell denizens. However, as for the creation of the realm itself, it was created by Yahweh.
Deleted member 30746
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That's not the general implication. Also, the Lucifer series does not state this clearly. But in Sandman, this contradicts the Books of Magic, as Lucifer says the size of Hell is so extreme that even he can't tell. Because Lucifer created Hell, he is the only one who knows the true form of this place.
Anyway, this isn't even a serious problem. AP justifications are fine with me. You could only emphasize the qualities of the realms.
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Sandman quite literally does claim God did. As Remiel literally states Hell was created by God in order of created things. So, yes, it is his realm that he created that he gave to Lucifer so that he would be in the furthest place from Primum Mobile.
The Cosmology page needs to be fixed, that's where they can reference where the scaling comes from.
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Where should Tim Hunter scale within this?
As one of the vertigo top tiers
vsbattles.fandom.com
As one of the vertigo top tiers
Timothy Hunter
Timothy "Tim" Hunter is a young man from London, born with the titles of Opener, Maker, Sign, and Merlin. He is the conduit through which all magic enters creation, and with that power, he has the potential to become the greatest mage in the DC Universe. At the age of 14, Tim was approached by...
vsbattles.fandom.com
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I'll save it for next thread. However, anywhere from 1-A to High 1-A(depending on how the next thread does) at full potential.Where should Tim Hunter scale within this?
As one of the vertigo top tiers
Timothy Hunter
Timothy "Tim" Hunter is a young man from London, born with the titles of Opener, Maker, Sign, and Merlin. He is the conduit through which all magic enters creation, and with that power, he has the potential to become the greatest mage in the DC Universe. At the age of 14, Tim was approached by...
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I think his first key should be far higher based on the fact Tim's Other Self could significantly affect all realms with his Storm [The Endless' realms were explicitly mentioned as part of the realms of Book of Magic] , and was so powerful none of the rulers of those realms could challenge Timothy's other self, yet was completely overwhelmed when trying to absorb current Timothy's powers.
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If that's the case then as of now that would be flat-out 1-A.
Deleted member 30746
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This comment is also not fixed. But in the most common interpretation, we can say that Yahweh gave the place to Lucifer and he created the environment. Because Hell was just an emptiness without Lucifer.
Yeah, no problem. There is little left to do.
For now, yes, he should be the same tier as heres. But his full potential could definitely be High 1-A.
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Is there a High1-A in Vertigo?
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That's for the continuation after part one.
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tim should scale to more or less everything below the overvoid in vertigo considering he's the avatar and conduit for the logos
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Semantics but there isn’t a profile in Vertigo for Overvoid, so “Void” to be precise. Regardless, he is top tier.
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Anyone agree with these changes?
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Yes . Will mother night and father time gets a high 1A ratings in the next revision
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Most likely. I mean Time literally see all of Creation through a single continuum including his childrens.
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Is there any scaling or notable fears for Superman where they Sting?
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*feats
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