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J.M. DeMatteis (Marvel Cosmology Split)

Antvasima said:
Yes, that is correct. 🙏
Click to expand...
Unless I've missed something, the intro paragraph is the only place where the justifications for the cosmology split in itself are being explained, right?
As some of you may understand I have been advocating with Ultima after this tiering system revision was being applied that DeMatteis's story isn't very congruent with the main Cosmology. While authors like Hickman, Ewing, and many others seem to at least follow a certain contunity with their storytelling by incorporating the works of others, that can't really be said for DeMatteis. J.M. DeMatteis usually always writes his story specific to his belief and on story that focuses on “Creation” does it really show.

Thus, this thread is intended to split J.M. DeMatteis's work from the main Marvel continuity and @Ultima_Reality will be in charge of overseeing the change in the main system rating for Marvel after this change.

J.M. DeMatteis heavily focuses on elements that he knows from his journey in life. This is a big example of his “God” character as a being that is not meant to be tied to just the comics, but a holistic fountainhead that is not tethered to just one religion though it's heavily Hindu-based. Now, J.M. DeMatteis writing is very flowery and hard to understand especially when he was experimenting more with the Cosmology. This means some interpretation can be put for these scans.
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The reasoning here is very brief, and doesn't actually elaborate on how the differences between this and the mainstream cosmology are necessarily irreconcilable. But overall, going strictly off the reasoning I've directly seen, I think it's reasonable to split the Divine Creator, Oblivion, and the original characters like the Fallen Stars. I need clarification on what makes the physical cosmology incompatible first.
 
ProfectusInfinity said:
The reasoning here is very brief, and doesn't actually elaborate on how the differences between this and the mainstream cosmology are necessarily irreconcilable. But overall, going strictly off the reasoning I've directly seen, I think it's reasonable to split the Divine Creator, Oblivion, and the original characters like the Fallen Stars. I need clarification on what makes physical cosmology incompatible first.
Click to expand...
I would say the entire CRT is a contrast to Cosmology considering the idea of everything being a dream with a dream from God being the conscience that brought it all together.

J.M. DeMatteis takes his inspiration and route from a Hindu Cosmology which isn't related to Judaism much less the mystical side of Judaism: Kabbalah as the Four Worlds have no correlation in Matteis. Al Ewing structures Cosmology as narrative layers as opposed to dream layers and the level of consciousness. His God design is literally based on Adi Shankara's view of Nirguna Brahman and the Advaita Vedanta school of teaching where Creation is an illusion and that there's a non-dual being as the true reality from which Creation emanates through Maya.

  • The main Cosmology is based on the mystical teaching of Kabbalah. J.M. DeMatteis is purely Hinduism as he said the only character from Kabbalah is “Adam K’ad-Mon” which we see that the Primordial Man in Ewing Cosmology is Adam Brasher has much contrast to the former. One’s the archetype for Creation to come while the other is the progenitor of the lineage of men and the guardian of the Nexus in the Flordian swamps.
  • Creation in Ewing Cosmology is a narrative based on Keter(Assiyah) being the final part of the lowest hierarchy. The Divine Creator is meant to be the Paraatma/Parabrahman equivalent which the One Above All isn't the Ein Sof equivalent. Even then Ein Sof and Brahman are not the same beings and from different teachings with different perspectives on the Universe. Kabbalah rejects the teaching that humans are God living in his own creations since that's blasphemous to them.
  • J.M. DeMatteis bases his story always the same and introduces characters that are incongruent or completely ignored by anyone else. Hence why he never even refers to “One Above All” as a name especially since that said “person” is not actually ineffable, immutable, or unsurpassable.
  • The Fallen Star fits nowhere since they can't even work in conjunction with the One Above All or else they scale above the entire hierarchy except for the House if we were to introduce them in the main Cosmology.
  • The basis of Creation in J.M. DeMatteis is not the reincarnation of Creation embodied by Firmaments. Rather it would always come and will end at the end in MahaPralaya and those who do strip the veils hiding the True Creator’s face would ascend into a Golden Age, which is not universally shared by the main Cosmology. The only similarity in that part is the Mystery is a journey to unveil God’s face but Ein Sof is not the same as the Oversoul concept that all Souls are God living in his dream and return into his Oneness and back throughout countless reincarnations until all Souls ascend. This is a completely different view from Kabbalah.
  • Cleito and Adam K’ad-Mon’s relation isn't at all evident in the main Cosmology, much less Job Burke being completely ignored as the next person to have the power to become the Divine Dreamer. The Nexus also is a focal point and treated as the OM point which has somehow not made it in the main Cosmology. Other than some old Uncanny X-Men comics with Jean entering the White Hot Room and learning that the M’Kraan Crystal is a Nexus of All Reality and later said to contain the dwelling place of the Phoenix, which was then changed as the White Hot Room is a transcendental plane and the healing medicine of the Universe.
  • The One Above All has an alter ego of the One Below All contradicts the nature of God as a being that's Love itself.
  • The origin story starts with God forming an aspect called the Creator in his dream creating duality, and letting his souls have limits from their original existence where they're one with God. This has nothing to do with the main Cosmology.
  • Oblivion is directly the mind of God specially his unconsciousness that relies on the Creator as the being that contains existence and non-existence. He is uncreated, eternal, and not subjected to the laws of the Universe unlike Hickman's depiction of end-of-time Nihilism that is opposed by the Tribunal judgment.
  • Maya fits nowhere unless we consider it Eternity's female counterpart but such concepts aren't introduced in most of the main story.
  • Illusion or the main Reality is just a level of consciousness as such Gross, Sutble, and Mental Planne which is not all presented as the main source of leveling in Creational hierarchy in the main Cosmology.
  • Also, God is independent of everything hence why he would receive 0 which can't happen if he's one and the same with the One Above All.
  • The concept of the Quantum Sea or the Ocean of Dreams is the collective unconscious capable of making dreams of the entire hierarchy below doesn't fit well with the main Cosmology.
  • J.M. DeMatteis takes his works from the teaching of the spiritual avatar, Meher Baba. Ewing doesn't at all base or elude such figures given he either doesn't know him or he doesn't use his teaching.
  • The idea that God is unconscious and not interactive but only through Maya, illusions, and his avatars of ages doesn't really link with the One Above All.
  • God being used as a Magician was a nice analogy that depicts that he made Reality as his trick and all forms of illusion while the One Above All demiurgic fires near the primordial time have no effect on being like the Mother of Horrors.
  • Every Soul being God is a major part of the story. That everyone in their core essence is God just living in the dream and being ignorant of it. Which isn't how Kabbalah works.
I can make more points but you get the idea.
 
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Also, I wanted to add something. In the section that covers the gross/material plane, I said that there is an R>F hierarchy throughout the Macrocosmos. This is relevant because the Macrocomos is talking about Creation as a whole down to the Quantum Sea that connects everything and from where the worlds emerges. The R>F hierarchy isn't limited to the material plane hence why there are so many Heaven and beyond Heaven is the Quantum Sea where all Souls turn into pure energy facing only in the direction of God’s love. At this stage, they have the power to dream of the entirety of a 1-A+ hierarchy including the metaphysical realms. The Quantum Sea or the Ocean of Dreams is still in the mental plane on the third level of consciousness hence why High 1-A in my opinion is fully justified.

That's the gist of it “Everything is a dream within a dream.” Everything Surfer imagined or saw is being dreamed by someone else in the Quantum Sea which is the Marvel equivalent of the Collective Unconcious/Ocean of Dreams where God’s love washed the Souls back into his Oneness when they're ready to dissolve in hir unity.
 
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VeryGoofyToddler said:
Also, I wanted to add something. In the section that covers the gross/material plane, I said that there is an R>F hierarchy throughout the Macrocosmos. This is relevant because the Macrocomos is talking about Creation as a whole down to the Quantum Sea that connects everything and from where the worlds emerges. The R>F hierarchy isn't limited to the material plane hence why there are so many Heaven and beyond Heaven is the Quantum Sea where all Souls turn into pure energy facing only in the direction of God’s love. At this stage, they have the power to dream of the entirety of a 1-A+ hierarchy including the metaphysical realms. The Quantum Sea or the Ocean of Dreams is still in the mental plane on the third level of consciousness hence why High 1-A in my opinion is fully justified.

That's the gist of it “Everything is a dream within a dream.” Everything Surfer imagined or saw is being dreamed by someone else in the Quantum Sea which is the Marvel equivalent of the Collective Unconcious/Ocean of Dreams where God’s love washed the Souls back into his Oneness when they're ready to dissolve in hir unity.
Click to expand...
So uh what do we do about things like the Nexus ? It seems that certain entities within DeMatteis Cosmology allows those to either become one with God/The Divine Creator, and in the Thor run it’s even more obvious because people can directly access the powers of The Divine Creator, which isn’t treated as a special occurrence and is in-fact stated that anyone in the Dream can do it: Also it is directly stated that the Divine Creator dreams hirself into creation and plays every role, so that would mean God is both within the Dream and outside of it, which would mean maintaining said Dream which includes the Dreamer hirself gets elevated to 0. Which doesn’t contradict everything because it is literally the Divine Ceeator being all of these characters and doing all of these things, and thusly affecting yourself with your own powers isn’t really an antifeat.

So, in my opinion due to that, the Nexus, and the Thor run, I believe the entities should get a Varies tier from their normal tier to 0 if they’ve shown feats to suggest they scale to the Dream / God
 
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The_2nd_Existential_Seed said:
So, in my opinion due to that, the Nexus, and the Thor run, I believe the entities should get a Varies tier from their normal tier to 0 if they’ve shown feats to suggest they scale to the Dream / God
Click to expand...
I don't agree with this. Everything is metaphorical to suggest people can obtain God’s love and mercy because at their core “they are God.” However, becoming God would mean they lose their individuality because God is the only thing that exists as everything is just illusions and veils hiding them from their true nature as God. They're not themselves at that point as they exist as God hirself.

Also, you can only have one tier 0, so only one profile gets it.
 
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ProfectusInfinity said:
Might be wrong, but isn’t the only exception when you’re blessed/granted power by a monad?
Click to expand...
I would question why being bestowed power by Monad grants 0 because that's very contradictory in a sense.

In the sense that all Souls are God living in the dream would be the basis that everyone is 0 inherently, but only due to them being “God” as they lose any form or individuality when they merge with him. Like how Ultima and I discuss God from Seekers that any aspect of God dreaming himself in his own dream can't be 0 even though his power is unlimited and unbound in any state.

You can't equalize yourself to Monad simply because it gave you powers. I more so say that's High 1-A+ at the highest. I agree with the ground of common sense. If Monad does make someone equal to him as 0 then Monad would have to be more powerful at the same time, but it limits him in the sense that he can't simply make something equal to him being infinite in power, but also transcend his own power and equivalent. The only exception I see is that person was always Monad and power bestowal is just a way of becoming Monad again. A lot of illogical quagmires if power bestowal by Monad could get you 0.
 
ProfectusInfinity said:
Might be wrong, but isn’t the only exception when you’re blessed/granted power by a monad?
Click to expand...
Yes, but we are talking about a situation beyond this situation. This state is Shiv-Atma. The state of "full consciousness matured" in which the person's consciousness is integrated with Man-God, that is, Paramatma, is mentioned. Naturally they reach beyond the levels of illusion into the reality of God. But even then they are not equivalent to His infinity.
 
I think some changes are still necessary such as the Nexus being the peak of the Creational hierarchy(funny enough that in a recent story, they changed the origin of Man-Thing Nexus but it wasn't written by DeMatteis).

I think only Lords of Shamballa, Cleito, Franklin Richards, Job Burke, and Adam K’ad-Mon should logically scale to it. Funny enough the male and female aspects of God(Cleito and Adam) may not fully scale to it. While God and Oblivion obviously transcend the Nexus.
 
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VeryGoofyToddler said:
I think some changes are still necessary such as the Nexus being the peak of the Creational hierarchy(funny enough that in a recent story, they changed the origin of Man-Thing Nexus but it wasn't written by DeMatteis).

I think only Lords of Shamballa, Cleito, Franklin Richards, Job Burke, and Adam K’ad-Mon should logically scale to it. Funny enough the male and female aspects of God(Cleito and Adam) may not fully scale to it. While God and Oblivion obviously transcend the Nexus.
Click to expand...
I don't understand what you are hesitating about, I think there is no problem. The essence of Creation is the dream, and accordingly, the first name that comes to our mind as the "the collection of all possible effects" created by Tier 0 will be Maya. Anyone transcended Maya should be High 1-A+.
 
LazyMortician said:
I don't understand what you are hesitating about, I think there is no problem. The essence of Creation is the dream, and accordingly, the first name that comes to our mind as the "the collection of all possible effects" created by Tier 0 will be Maya. Anyone transcended Maya should be High 1-A+.
Click to expand...
The problem I have is with the embodiments of Creation/Dream. While yes, Maya is the illusive Reality hiding the True Reality and embody the Dream that God dreamed. The problems come with Eternity and he was replaceable when the cosmic axis shifted despite being the sum total of the Cosmos. While the Nexus can't be replaced or destroyed unless you want all of Creation to enter Oblivion. Yet, the Nexus is the soul of Creation with Maya/Eternity both being Creation is iffy.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
I would say the entire CRT is a contrast to Cosmology considering the idea of everything being a dream with a dream from God being the conscience that brought it all together.

J.M. DeMatteis takes his inspiration and route from a Hindu Cosmology which isn't related to Judaism much less the mystical side of Judaism: Kabbalah as the Four Worlds have no correlation in Matteis. Al Ewing structures Cosmology as narrative layers as opposed to dream layers and the level of consciousness. His God design is literally based on Adi Shankara's view of Nirguna Brahman and the Advaita Vedanta school of teaching where Creation is an illusion and that there's a non-dual being as the true reality from which Creation emanates through Maya.

  • The main Cosmology is based on the mystical teaching of Kabbalah. J.M. DeMatteis is purely Hinduism as he said the only character from Kabbalah is “Adam K’ad-Mon” which we see that the Primordial Man in Ewing Cosmology is Adam Brasher has much contrast to the former. One’s the archetype for Creation to come while the other is the progenitor of the lineage of men and the guardian of the Nexus in the Flordian swamps.
  • Creation in Ewing Cosmology is a narrative based on Keter(Assiyah) being the final part of the lowest hierarchy. The Divine Creator is meant to be the Paraatma/Parabrahman equivalent which the One Above All isn't the Ein Sof equivalent. Even then Ein Sof and Brahman are not the same beings and from different teachings with different perspectives on the Universe. Kabbalah rejects the teaching that humans are God living in his own creations since that's blasphemous to them.
  • J.M. DeMatteis bases his story always the same and introduces characters that are incongruent or completely ignored by anyone else. Hence why he never even refers to “One Above All” as a name especially since that said “person” is not actually ineffable, immutable, or unsurpassable.
  • The Fallen Star fits nowhere since they can't even work in conjunction with the One Above All or else they scale above the entire hierarchy except for the House if we were to introduce them in the main Cosmology.
  • The basis of Creation in J.M. DeMatteis is not the reincarnation of Creation embodied by Firmaments. Rather it would always come and will end at the end in MahaPralaya and those who do strip the veils hiding the True Creator’s face would ascend into a Golden Age, which is not universally shared by the main Cosmology. The only similarity in that part is the Mystery is a journey to unveil God’s face but Ein Sof is not the same as the Oversoul concept that all Souls are God living in his dream and return into his Oneness and back throughout countless reincarnations until all Souls ascend. This is a completely different view from Kabbalah.
  • Cleito and Adam K’ad-Mon’s relation isn't at all evident in the main Cosmology, much less Job Burke being completely ignored as the next person to have the power to become the Divine Dreamer. The Nexus also is a focal point and treated as the OM point which has somehow not made it in the main Cosmology. Other than some old Uncanny X-Men comics with Jean entering the White Hot Room and learning that the M’Kraan Crystal is a Nexus of All Reality and later said to contain the dwelling place of the Phoenix, which was then changed as the White Hot Room is a transcendental plane and the healing medicine of the Universe.
  • The One Above All has an alter ego of the One Below All contradicts the nature of God as a being that's Love itself.
  • The origin story starts with God forming an aspect called the Creator in his dream creating duality, and letting his souls have limits from their original existence where they're one with God. This has nothing to do with the main Cosmology.
  • Oblivion is directly the mind of God specially his unconsciousness that relies on the Creator as the being that contains existence and non-existence. He is uncreated, eternal, and not subjected to the laws of the Universe unlike Hickman's depiction of end-of-time Nihilism that is opposed by the Tribunal judgment.
  • Maya fits nowhere unless we consider it Eternity's female counterpart but such concepts aren't introduced in most of the main story.
  • Illusion or the main Reality is just a level of consciousness as such Gross, Sutble, and Mental Planne which is not all presented as the main source of leveling in Creational hierarchy in the main Cosmology.
  • Also, God is independent of everything hence why he would receive 0 which can't happen if he's one and the same with the One Above All.
  • The concept of the Quantum Sea or the Ocean of Dreams is the collective unconscious capable of making dreams of the entire hierarchy below doesn't fit well with the main Cosmology.
  • J.M. DeMatteis takes his works from the teaching of the spiritual avatar, Meher Baba. Ewing doesn't at all base or elude such figures given he either doesn't know him or he doesn't use his teaching.
  • The idea that God is unconscious and not interactive but only through Maya, illusions, and his avatars of ages doesn't really link with the One Above All.
  • God being used as a Magician was a nice analogy that depicts that he made Reality as his trick and all forms of illusion while the One Above All demiurgic fires near the primordial time have no effect on being like the Mother of Horrors.
  • Every Soul being God is a major part of the story. That everyone in their core essence is God just living in the dream and being ignorant of it. Which isn't how Kabbalah works.
I can make more points but you get the idea.
Click to expand...
For anyone new here and need some more context then here’s a list of reasons I made. If it helps read this first then the OP, if it helps to digress the split more. However, Ultima did remind us to hold off on the rating.
 
I don’t think Divine Creator being 0 is something Ultima will disagree with. It seems really blatant and DC hirself is a direct mirror of how DeMatteis views God, like The Magician from Seekers into the Mystery.It’s everything else that may be an issue.

I still believe you can at least argue Tier 0 hax because of what happened with Thor and him being able to access the Divine Creator’s powers, and then him heavily implicating anyone can do this and it isn’t just Thor
 
The_2nd_Existential_Seed said:
I still believe you can at least argue Tier 0 hax because of what happened with Thor and him being able to access the Divine Creator’s powers, and then him heavily implicating anyone can do this and it isn’t just Thor
Click to expand...
I don't think the message was that. I, rather, believe that Thor means that we are all part of the Creator, and in our deepest core, we are him. This just means that we’re all reflections of that same person and that we’re unaware of it.

This is evidently clear since J.M. DeMatteis has said that even though we are in the “Story” we are also the tellers of it. Thus, at our deepest, we are him. Both Dream and Dreamer.
 
I must ask (though this may be slightly off-topic), is a cosmology split absolutely needed to introduce Tier 0/High 1-A+ profiles? Obviously High 1-A profiles would be impossible, but Tier 0/High 1-A+ is cosmology-independent, so it wouldn't be impossible to split individual characters like the Divine Creator, propose a Tier 0 rating for him, then "downscale" other split characters like Oblivion, the Scrier, and Fallen Stars to his omnipotence and promote them to High 1-A+ (I know downscaling from a Tier 0 is impossible, I was using the term metaphorically).

I'm saying this because while I do see the appeal and rationale behind introducing Tier 0/High 1-A+ profiles to Marvel, when and if I have time to look over the split justifications in-depth, I'm probably gonna disagree based on what I've already seen.
 
ProfectusInfinity said:
I must ask (though this may be slightly off-topic), is a cosmology split absolutely needed to introduce Tier 0/High 1-A+ profiles?
Click to expand...
What do you mean is this actually necessary? Unless there's an actual reason to suggest DeMatteis’s stories are congruent to any mainline story then I see no actual correlation with his story to anyone else. This is literally why he was split for DC under the same reason yet his writing is the same across the board just within different companies. Regardless of the tiering, the real main reason should stem from common logic that his story, idea, characters, and logic never made it past his own stories.
ProfectusInfinity said:
Obviously High 1-A profiles would be impossible, but Tier 0/High 1-A+ is cosmology-independent, so it wouldn't be impossible to split individual characters like the Divine Creator, propose a Tier 0 rating for him, then "downscale" other split characters like Oblivion, the Scrier, and Fallen Stars to his omnipotence and promote them to High 1-A+ (I know downscaling from a Tier 0 is impossible, I was using the term metaphorically).
Click to expand...
Yeah, and they don't fit anywhere in the main Cosmology nor are they mentioned ever again in any story. The entire premise of Al Ewing's stories are literal contradiction to J.M. DeMatteis's story.
ProfectusInfinity said:
I'm saying this because while I do see the appeal and rationale behind introducing Tier 0/High 1-A+ profiles to Marvel, when and if I have time to look over the split justifications in-depth, I'm probably gonna disagree based on what I've already seen.
Click to expand...
I just assumed you already had the preconceived notion that you'lI disagree regardless of the information because the justification was already enough for some mods. Not that I would force any opinion, but without any bais, it is very plain and simple that justification would merit a change since a mod already agreed to it as well as everyone else here except some people who simply don't want the split in regards to actually reading the justifications. They literally say “is it really necessary for a split just because of High 1-A+/0 profile” when the main reason isn't even the rating or profile. It really stemmed from the same treatment that J.M. DeMatteis's story tends to go as being pseudo-canon to anything beyond his own take on the Cosmology. That reason alone is very evidently true and already has been the topic of just letting DeMatteis get his own page for his take on Cosmology because it doesn't fit regardless of how you try to make it fit.

Essentially what you would be doing is ignoring 95% of his work and creations for what he has talked about when it comes to Cosmology, just to keep a Composite Marvel for just using characters like Eternity or Dormammu. It's plain ignorant to say that his stuff does work because the main just of that reasoning would fall down to asking the question of whether High 1-A+ or 0 would be enough for a split because you're ignoring the root of twhy his split is being suggested. High 1-A+ is also just FYI in the Cosmology. Only 0 is independent.
 
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Not trying to be rude or anything but I feel like if Ultima agrees with my take which means 3/4 of mods would already agree to the thread then there wouldn't be as much commotion. Anyways, Elizio33 hasn't formally voiced his/her opinion but already stated several times prior that he/she agrees to the thread. DarkDragon I assume agrees with it. So that's just leaves some people and if Ant agrees then that's technically 3.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
Not trying to be rude or anything but I feel like if Ultima agrees with my take which means 3/4 of mods would already agree to the thread then there wouldn't be as much commotion. Anyways, Elizio33 hasn't formally voiced his/her opinion but already stated several times prior that he/she agrees to the thread. DarkDragon I assume agrees with it. So that's just leaves some people and if Ant agrees then that's technically 3.
Click to expand...
Perhaps a brief summary of how this would affect the current Marvel profiles and cosmology would help smooth this out.

Also, an opinion from Ultima would be useful, especially since's he's the one who made the cosmology page for Marvel and he's the one who will need to edit it accordingly to remove the Demattis stuff.
 
Eseseso said:
Perhaps a brief summary of how this would affect the current Marvel profiles and cosmology would help smooth this out.
Click to expand...
I don't think that's actually necessary for the purpose of this thread. Hence, if this gets accepted then a separate CRT can go over the changes that will happen to main Marvel. This thread is literally just if you accept the split or not. However, I’ll keep this in mind.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
I don't think that's actually necessary for the purpose of this thread. Hence, if this gets accepted then a separate CRT can go over the changes that will happen to main Marvel. This thread is literally just if you accept the split or not. However, I’ll keep this in mind.
Click to expand...
Personally I disagree with the thread, but if enough staff have voted in favor of it then that's that.
 
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