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He may be saying that it should be 0, but if he argues that it should be even below High 1-A+, then yes, this is a very wrong idea.
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God Tier 0 (Seekers into the Mystery)
- Thread starter Robo432343
- Start date
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While the Avatar (the Magician) is aware of His Reality, he can return to his Essence at any time. Technically speaking, the Avatar is already omnipotent, but He still harbors the meaningless effects of the illusion. (Although independent of it.)
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Ultima already answered it here. 0 can have an avatar or manifestation as long they're being channel powers proxy to it. Though being an avatar is the limiting factor here the Magician was formed inside the Dream and works from the framework of Creation/Dream.
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The Magician is not actually limited to illusion in either case. But Ultima said that even in the situation I mentioned above, he cannot be 0.
Since Ultima initially said that avatars or incarnations of 0 could also be 0, and I felt that the Magician fit into this situation, I felt the need to examine the topic.
Since Ultima initially said that avatars or incarnations of 0 could also be 0, and I felt that the Magician fit into this situation, I felt the need to examine the topic.
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The Magician was created by God in #9 to be physically tethered to mortal minds so that they could comprehend him. He obviously is still the same Oneness beyond all Creation, but still being created as a “physical shell” of his truer being is why he has High 1-A+ because he's manifested thus not beyond all distinction, notions, and contingency without being his ultimate self.
When? The only example I've seen is that of something like Krishna from Hinduism or Jesus Christ from Christianity where they've just manifested a view of their ultimate concept and at will can return to it. However, while in the state of existence(which applies to the Magician) they're not 0, at that moment. You could argue for the Catholic doctrine approach of Jesus to be 0 simply because they accept that God and all his parts are no different and no differentiate between Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. This isn't the case for the Magician.
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This is the mission of Avatar. Although he is above all illusion, he also allows some things to restrict him while experiencing himself. As for God and His attributes in #9, as you stated, He reduces Himself to physical forms for the consciousness of souls in the spiral of ignorance.
I distinctly remember Ultima saying this. But I guess the usage area of this seems to be quite limited because this was the clearest example in my mind. (I mean the Magician)
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Yeah, sure, he's above all “illusion” but he, himself, is also “in” the illusion and was made within the Dream. It's pretty easy to know that his original existence is unconscious and unmanifest, but the Magician is formed and conscious, well aware of the illusion and his true being, but still emanates from a greater source.
So, yeah, due to him being in the illusions(doesn't matter, if he's above it all) and manifesting from a greater source as a sort of avatar while making himself also “physical” then he is bound to the illusions until he takes his creation back to the sea of nothing from which everything sprang.
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It can, yeah. Tier 0 can't be boiled down to anything lesser than itself, but that includes all the effects it can cause. So it having an avatar that has access to all the external effects of its power (And thus is High 1-A+) is fine.
Rakih_Elyan
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Yeah, just like what Ultima said.
High 1-A for the magi and 0 for the actual God.
High 1-A for the magi and 0 for the actual God.
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The funny thing is the Primal Ocean at a certain point isn't even described as God(It’s beyond naming and language thus God is a concept that would be treated in the same essence as just a useless term). That would be more akin to that being we see in #9. Though, that's really just semantical at that point.
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So, How much is left here? I think enough people agrees with H1-A + magician and 0 "God"/primordial ocean
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CRT involvement needs either two or three mods to agree on it. Though, I don't know why Ultima just can't make this an exception.
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Yeah... Like, this is basically one of the best examples of a 0 character in the new system
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In any other given circumstances, I would understand. However, given the revision project is over and with eager people wanting to make CRT. I believe that moving on with the obvious thread would be easier but it is what it is.
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God (Seekers into the Mystery)
God is the central character of the graphic novel Seekers Into the Mystery, written by J.M DeMatteis. He is the ultimate reality and utmost source of all things, being the ocean of nothingness (And also of pure love) from which all of existence emanated, having been created so as to express...
vsbattles.fandom.com
Alright, so, I applied the profile revisions. I'll keep the thread open for a bit and leave it paraded around here, in case anyone has anything to say about it.
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Good. We officially have the first tier 0 character in the new system.
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This might’ve been answered already, but if The Magician is literally a Vessel for God’s power (Tier 0) to be channeled through, how come it isn’t Tier 0 through hax or some such ?
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Any effect that a Tier 0 produces out of itself is infinitely lesser than it, so the tier properly speaking is restricted to the "essence" of the thing, and isn't given to the avatar.
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Hm. I see. So in what case scenario would it be that someone would be able to have Tier 0 hax then ? Would it be something along the lines of: “[Insert Tier 0] helps , assists, or grants the wishes/desires of the character in question”, or are there other simpler examples ?
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Pretty much, yeah. You can say the hax is Tier 0 as regards its efficaciousness, since it flows from what defines everything on all levels (And to which even an hypothetical High 1-A+ would be subordinate), but it's not like they can make a Tier 0 explosion or something.
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Thank you. Makes sense
One last question and I should be good: I noticed how you put one of the justification for Tier 0 being that he is beyond naming. Why would that be a justification ? (This isn’t the only time DeMatteis referred to a All-Encompass Divine Entity as beyond naming, that was the “God” equivalent from Impossible Incorporated , so I figured I should figure out how that works as justification for Tier 0 in case this shows up again)
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Mostly just there as a minor piece of supporting evidence to top off the rest, since it points to the general theme that God is beyond thought and intellection. Wouldn't be there if the rest of the justification didn't also exist.
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So, this counts as being “accepted” and the next thread in the queue is being opened?God (Seekers into the Mystery)
God is the central character of the graphic novel Seekers Into the Mystery, written by J.M DeMatteis. He is the ultimate reality and utmost source of all things, being the ocean of nothingness (And also of pure love) from which all of existence emanated, having been created so as to express...
Alright, so, I applied the profile revisions. I'll keep the thread open for a bit and leave it paraded around here, in case anyone has anything to say about it.
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Only when this one is closed.
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Honestly, this thread can close and instead, someone could make a general discussion for the Seekers Cosmology. I think that’d be a much better idea.
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is it really tho? the comic is pretty much finished and no other updates to discuss about, maybe a DeMatteis' general discussion would be better although it would cover a SHIT TON of stuff to discuss
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I actually like that idea better. Though, I still would like this specific topic to be closed.
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That's actually an excelent idea, considering that most of DeMatteis Works share common elements between them.
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Oh yes. A legitimate reason to discuss his other works
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For anyone who has context to this. I find it very ironic that there's such a debate in a certain other thread about this.
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I think this thread can be closed now. There are others on the queue.
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Yeah, might as well.
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