God Tier 0 (Seekers into the Mystery)

[LazyMortician]

Yes, they are saying that Magician shouldn't be High 1-A+ because he's just an avatar.
If I understood that correctly, which isn't really true.

He may be saying that it should be 0, but if he argues that it should be even below High 1-A+, then yes, this is a very wrong idea.

 

[LazyMortician]

As far as I know Tier 0 can create their own avatars, but the main point is that these avatars cannot communicate or interact with or go near to tier 0 being in any way.

Because there is no concept of "any place" for this being, it cannot be called "anything" because it lacks of all qualities and it is also superior/greater to them all. But of course Ultima knows better about it

While the Avatar (the Magician) is aware of His Reality, he can return to his Essence at any time. Technically speaking, the Avatar is already omnipotent, but He still harbors the meaningless effects of the illusion. (Although independent of it.)

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I don't believe that changes anything at all, no. Overall, over the course of the above dialogue, there wasn't really anything going against the idea of a High 1-A+ key for God's manifestation at all. Here, you said:


And I think the answer to this is pretty straightforward: The Magician, insofar as he is God (Which everything and everyone is, at the core), is not limited by the illusion. But the Magician, insofar as he is manifested at all, exists in the illusion. So, in one respect, he is Tier 0, but the respect in which he is Tier 0 is precisely the respect in which he is not manifested as the Magician, to begin with.

Ultima already answered it here. 0 can have an avatar or manifestation as long they're being channel powers proxy to it. Though being an avatar is the limiting factor here the Magician was formed inside the Dream and works from the framework of Creation/Dream.

 

[LazyMortician]

The Magician is not actually limited to illusion in either case. But Ultima said that even in the situation I mentioned above, he cannot be 0.

Since Ultima initially said that avatars or incarnations of 0 could also be 0, and I felt that the Magician fit into this situation, I felt the need to examine the topic.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

The Magician is not actually limited to illusion in either case. But Ultima said that even in the situation I mentioned above, he cannot be 0.

The Magician was created by God in #9 to be physically tethered to mortal minds so that they could comprehend him. He obviously is still the same Oneness beyond all Creation, but still being created as a “physical shell” of his truer being is why he has High 1-A+ because he's manifested thus not beyond all distinction, notions, and contingency without being his ultimate self.

Since Ultima initially said that avatars or incarnations of 0 could also be 0, and I felt that the Magician fit into this situation, I felt the need to examine the topic.

When? The only example I've seen is that of something like Krishna from Hinduism or Jesus Christ from Christianity where they've just manifested a view of their ultimate concept and at will can return to it. However, while in the state of existence(which applies to the Magician) they're not 0, at that moment. You could argue for the Catholic doctrine approach of Jesus to be 0 simply because they accept that God and all his parts are no different and no differentiate between Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. This isn't the case for the Magician.

 

[LazyMortician]

The Magician was created by God in #9 to be physically tethered to mortal minds so that they could comprehend him. He obviously is still the same Oneness beyond all Creation, but still being created as a “physical shell” of his truer being is why he has High 1-A+ because he's manifested thus not beyond all distinction, notions, and contingency without being his ultimate self.

This is the mission of Avatar. Although he is above all illusion, he also allows some things to restrict him while experiencing himself. As for God and His attributes in #9, as you stated, He reduces Himself to physical forms for the consciousness of souls in the spiral of ignorance.

When? The only example I've seen is that of something like Krishna from Hinduism or Jesus Christ from Christianity where they've just manifested a view of their ultimate concept and at will can return to it. However, while in the state of existence(which applies to the Magician) they're not 0, at that moment. You could argue for the Catholic doctrine approach of Jesus to be 0 simply because they accept that God and all his parts are no different and no differentiate between Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. This isn't the case for the Magician.

I distinctly remember Ultima saying this. But I guess the usage area of this seems to be quite limited because this was the clearest example in my mind. (I mean the Magician)

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

This is the mission of Avatar. Although he is above all illusion, he also allows some things to restrict him while experiencing himself. As for God and His attributes in #9, as you stated, He reduces Himself to physical forms for the consciousness of souls in the spiral of ignorance.

Yeah, sure, he's above all “illusion” but he, himself, is also “in” the illusion and was made within the Dream. It's pretty easy to know that his original existence is unconscious and unmanifest, but the Magician is formed and conscious, well aware of the illusion and his true being, but still emanates from a greater source.

So, yeah, due to him being in the illusions(doesn't matter, if he's above it all) and manifesting from a greater source as a sort of avatar while making himself also “physical” then he is bound to the illusions until he takes his creation back to the sea of nothing from which everything sprang.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

@Ultima_Reality ?

It can, yeah. Tier 0 can't be boiled down to anything lesser than itself, but that includes all the effects it can cause. So it having an avatar that has access to all the external effects of its power (And thus is High 1-A+) is fine.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Yeah, just like what Ultima said.

High 1-A for the magi and 0 for the actual God.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Yeah, just like what Ultima said.

High 1-A for the magi and 0 for the actual God.

The funny thing is the Primal Ocean at a certain point isn't even described as God(It’s beyond naming and language thus God is a concept that would be treated in the same essence as just a useless term). That would be more akin to that being we see in #9. Though, that's really just semantical at that point.