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Illumina major downgrade

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Zamasu Chan said:
Yeah no. The fact they have to enter that same cluster for every level disproves universal dreams.
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That's not enough proof to disprove them being Universal as it's clearly a design choice.The example I used proves this as well it is nitpicking.You also need to address the fact that the dreams are alternate versions of the universe Sonic and his friends live in.
 
Maginary World a world where each dream is an alternate dimension

Where dreams coincide with reality

They're explaining to the reader(who doesn't know about Maginary World)that the dreams of Maginary World being an alternate dimension,alternate of the dimension Sonic and Co live in(The World the reader knows about as it assumes you know the world Sonic lives in).It also coincides with reality the reality Sonic lives in which is Universe in size
 
To make it simple the people who dream the dreams in Maginary World are in alternate universes and thus the dreams replicated by the dreamer is an alternate version of the universe the dreamer lives in.

Anyway Shadow brought up these points above that were never opposed like the dreams existing separately and that the dreams become the different worlds
 
Someone linked me this sca offsite. And I still see no proof that world or dimensions meaning universe. World doesn't always mean universe; it sometimes does, but it also has been used to mean planet. Such as Emerl, Perfect Chaos, or Dark Gaia destroying the world simply meant planet. Dimension and planet have also been used in different sentences.

And there's only proof that the Dream World in it's entirety is 4-Dimensional or Universe in size, not the individual dreams. The individual dreams are simply pocket realities of unknown size. So in other words, Zamasu and Cal are the people being most reasonable here.
 
All right big meaty recap for being against only 2-B Illumina downgrade

-Each dream in Maginaryworld World is described as an alternate dimension(as each dream consists of Maginary World)

-The Dreams are alternate to the dimension Sonic and Co live in which is Universe in size

-In Firebird,Lumina mentions that those who dream of this place can travel throughout the Stars,and while yes that would only be 4-A world it supports the fact that the dreams are alternate version of Sonic and Co's dimension

-Each Dream also exists separately from each other as stated by Lumina(This is stated when they are traveling to 4th dimensional space)

-Worlds/Realms like dreams are usually universes throughout Sonic.If time exists throughout these dreams they would be timelines which Solaris would eat as stated by Eggman.

-Sonic and Co travel to the 4th dimension as Lumina says they are entering the 4th dimension and then refers to "4th dimensional space" as the area they are in that is the 4th dimension.Meaning each dream is 4-D

This is only for the AP stuff.
 
This is from the Japanese manual of Shuffle

A world you have never imagined where dreams cross paths with reality…

A world held together by the power of the Precious Stone, the jewel into which the dreams and hopes of peoples from the different dimensions have been synergised.

I don't know if it's useful or not but eh
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Someone linked me this sca offsite. And I still see no proof that world or dimensions meaning universe. World doesn't always mean universe; it sometimes does, but it also has been used to mean planet. Such as Emerl, Perfect Chaos, or Dark Gaia destroying the world simply meant planet. Dimension and planet have also been used in different sentences.

And there's only proof that the Dream World in it's entirety is 4-Dimensional or Universe in size, not the individual dreams. The individual dreams are simply pocket realities of unknown size. So in other words, Zamasu and Cal are the people being most reasonable here.
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Except that we have seen that the Dream Worlds have more than one planet, even having constalations, so in context it means it refers to universe
 
World can also mean galaxy or collection of galaxies, or it can simply mean pocket reality. Again, it merely described Illumina's Dream World as being a dimension/world/universe. In that context it means universe. But the dream worlds while easily bigger than planet, statements about them being parallel and some shown to at least be 4-A sized; those alone aren't enough proof to make them universes.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
World can also mean galaxy or collection of galaxies, or it can simply mean pocket reality. Again, it merely described Illumina's Dream World as being a dimension/world/universe. In that context it means universe. But the dream worlds while easily bigger than planet, statements about them being parallel and some shown to at least be 4-A sized; those alone aren't enough proof to make them universes.
Click to expand...
-Each dream in Maginaryworld World is described as an alternate dimension(as each dream consists of Maginary World)Remeber it says each dream meaning it applies to all of them

-The Dreams are alternate to the dimension Sonic and Co live in which is Universe in size

-In Firebird,Lumina mentions that those who dream of this place can travel throughout the Stars,and while yes that would only be 4-A world it supports the fact that the dreams are alternate version of Sonic and Co's dimension

-Each Dream also exists separately from each other as stated by Lumina(This is stated when they are traveling to 4th dimensional space)

-Worlds/Realms like dreams are usually universes throughout Sonic.If time exists throughout these dreams they would be timelines which Solaris would eat as stated by Eggman.

-Sonic and Co travel to the 4th dimension as Lumina says they are entering the 4th dimension and then refers to "4th dimensional space" as the area they are in that is the 4th dimension.Meaning each dream is
 
In 06 the final level is called "End of the world" so using this logic Solaris is that only planetary which isn't the case, world has many times been used to mean universes in this franchise
 
Again, Sonic is never consistent with its own definition of "World". There's also planet of times where world simply means planet. World can also mean pocket reality and it can also mean galaxy. And World or Dimension hasn't always meant universe either and the Dream World itself is the only actual 4th Dimension according to one of the more accurately translated sources.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Again, Sonic is never consistent with its own definition of "World". There's also planet of times where world simply means planet. And World or Dimension hasn't always meant universe either and the Dream World itself is the only actual 4th Dimension according to one of the more accurately translated sources.
Click to expand...
Please read this as you seem to be missing this point.Yes I know the word "world" doesn't always equate to Universe.

-Each dream in Maginaryworld World is described as an alternate dimension(as each dream consists of Maginary World)Remeber it says each dream meaning it applies to all of them

-The Dreams are alternate to the dimension Sonic and Co live in which is Universe in size

-It is Thus 2-B for having countless dreams
 
Neon Battle Bind said:
This is just going in circles at this point no one has even addressed the fact that every dream is parallel to a Universe.Oblivion,Shadow,The User and I have continuously debunked all these points and the 2-B downgrade debate should end.
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100% this, at this point it feels like this is countinuing because people don't want a 2-B Sonic, especialy since this thread was made after everyone had agreed with 2-B in the other thread
 
Everyone please stop. First of all, both sides have rights and wrongs. First of all, Matt does need to stop provoking the fanbase, but at the same time he is right. The fans are legit using quantity over quality practices and saying "Anti 2-B arguments", despite the fact that Matt and Ever are both Sonic fans as well. We're legit trying to be reasonable. I talked with Everlasting more, he said "4th dimensional Space" sounds like word salad. And besides, they described 4th dimension as a spatial dimension, they didn't describe it as Time. Which Ultima Reality said 4th dimensional space shouldn't be used as proof of Tier 2. It reminds Ever of Dr Doofenshmirtz transmitting sound in the "5th Dimensional stereo".

Again, people keep vaguely using the word "World" and assuming it means Universe every time it's used. But there's still no proof of them being universes. It's only describing the Dream World as a Universe and the individual dreams as sub dimensions in comparison. Again, I see why people are upset at Matt, but Cal, Zamasu, and Everlasting actually are legit being reasonable here.
 
@DDM I'll be clear. I respect Everlasting as much as I respect other staff here, but him saying it sounds like "word salad" isn't enough to debunk half of the arguments being brought up. And quantity over quality is, from what I see, isn't even right when there's things that the Pro 2-B side bring up that actually make sense.

@Matt I don't wanna be as rude as you're being, but... Can you just leave? If you're stressed then you need to take the time to relax, come back, and actually debunk arguments. Constantly coming here and doing nothing but insulting us is childish.
 
Everlasting did say more than that, and I also brought up with what Ultima Reality said. He didn't just say Egg Salad we also brought up other verses that said similar details. And most especially what Ultima Reality says regarding how our more revised definition of "Dimensional Tiering" actually works. This context basically says "4th Dimension" the same way "5th Dimensional Stereo" doesn't make someone High 2-A. Or Accelerator travelling through "11-Spatial Dimensions" doesn't make him High 1-C.
 
@DDM Matt hasn't provided any arguments, and Ever calling stuff "word salad" and making a vague comparison doesn't really address anything that was brought up in the thread.

Nobody is assuming that world automatically means universe. I have also pointed out that the worlds show a galaxy in them, which you haven't addressed. I can at least agree that Cal and Zamasu are being reasonable enough to hold a discussion with them.
 
I'll post this again as the opposition never responded to this.This has also been continuously ignored

-Each dream in Maginaryworld World is described as an alternate dimension(as each dream consists of Maginary World)Remeber it says each dream meaning it applies to all of them

-The Dreams are alternate to the dimension Sonic and Co live in which is Universe in size

-It is Thus 2-B for having countless dreams
 
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