Chaotic Dreams (Illumina, Void and Chaos Energy Revision)

[omegabronic]

hello, currently we already accept Dreams in Sonic as being a type 1 concept, so day i will explain why Maginary World and Dreams are more abstract than regular concepts and how they connect with Chaos Energy, plus some Higher Dimensional Existence additions for them as well

Spoiler: Abstract layers for Dreams

Enhanced Conceptual manipulation and Enhanced Abstract Existence

1st layer of abstraction​

Cyberspace is a realm of abstract fundamental information that shapes reality as building blocks of reality, compared to type 1 concepts, Information type 2 does the "shaping all of reality" in the same way as one another by their descriptions, thus they are as Abstract as one another

2nd layer of abstraction​

The Ancients had a Dream of passing down their legacy, and they planned to do that with Cyber Space, making it exist in Maginary World as a Dream world, like all other Dreams do, and due to the conceptual nature of Dreams, they would be shaping the reality of Abstract information, treating it like it treats normal reality, aka shaping it on fundamental levels, making it more fundamemtal and abstract than it

3rd layer of abstraction​

Similarly to the normal Dreams that shape reality, Ilumina's Dream, the 4th dimensional space, should also shape the reality it governs, which in this case are all the other Dream worlds that exist in Maginary World, making it even more fundamental then all of them as it is shaping all of the other Dreams as they shape reality, aka shaping it on fundamental levels, making it more fundamemtal and abstract than them

Tl, dr: Cyber space, a realm of abstract information that defines reality, is bellow dreams, as it is part of the reality they define, which are inferior to the 4th dimemsional space, which is a Dream world of the Dream Goddess that encompasses all the other dream worlds, shaping them as they shape reality, making the full Maginary World, Illumina and Void 3 layers of abstraction, as Void is not only a fundamental part of Dreams, but also he is the Dreams himself, and since he is but half of what Illumina is, she would also naturally have all aspects of her divided self

Higher Dimensional Existence​

the dream worlds are accepted as universal+/4D constructs/worlds, Void(and by proxy his complete self, Illumina) is said to not only be part of Dreams, but to be a Dream himself, this is an already accepted thing in both Void's and Illumina's profiles, now it would also give them Higher Dimensional Existance on a 4D level since Dreams are 4D universal space times

​

How does Chaos Energy relate to all this?​

Chaos Energy is said to be what gives all living things both "energy" and "vitality", which would include living beings such as Void, The End and Ilumina, Chaos Energy is a fundamental part of them, being their vitality and energy and as such, it would gain an existence similar to them all, since it is naturally a part of them, so all Chaos Energy would be Conceptual and 4D in nature


Agree: @ThatBusyDude @LordGriffin1000 (neutral on the abstraction layers, but thinks that it is possible) @Vietthai96

Disagree: @JJSliderman (With the Chaos Energy additions)

Neutral: @ShakeResounding (Seens merit of the Chaos Energy additions, slightly disagreements on the Cyber space giving layers)

 

[JJSliderman]

Can’t really comment on most of it, but the latter part I disagree with. It doesn’t state that Chaos Energy gives vitality, but the Emeralds. In that regard it seems more likely the statement is referring to just Sonic’s universe, since there are other sets of Emeralds and other cosmic power sources in the multiverse that shape their respective realities (like the World Rings). Super Sonic being produced by channeling dream energy doesn’t inherently mean the Emeralds give life to these dream based entities.

 

[Eseseso]

hello, currently we already accept Dreams in Sonic as being a type 1 concept, so day i will explain why Maginary World and Dreams are more abstract than regular concepts and how they connect with Chaos Energy, plus some Higher Dimensional Existence additions for them as well

Spoiler: Abstract layers for Dreams

Enhanced Conceptual manipulation and Enhanced Abstract Existence

1st layer of abstraction​

Cyberspace is a realm of abstract fundamental information that shapes reality as building blocks of reality

2nd layer of abstraction​

The Ancients had a Dream of passing down their legacy, and they planned to do that with Cyber Space, making it exist in Maginary World as a Dream world, like all other Dreams do, and due to the conceptual nature of Dreams, they would be shaping the reality of Abstract information, treating it like it treats normal reality, aka shaping it on fundamental levels, making it more fundamemtal and abstract than it

3rd layer of abstraction​

Similarly to the normal Dreams that shape reality, Ilumina's Dream, the 4th dimensional space, should also shape the reality it governs, which in this case are all the other Dream worlds that exist in Maginary World, making it even more fundamental then all of them as it is shaping all of the other Dreams as they shape reality, aka shaping it on fundamental levels, making it more fundamemtal and abstract than them

Tl, dr: Cyber space, a realm of abstract information that defines reality, is bellow dreams, as it is part of the reality they define, which are inferior to the 4th dimemsional space, which is a Dream world of the Dream Goddess that encompasses all the other dream worlds, shaping them as they shape reality, making the full Maginary World, Illumina and Void 3 layers of abstraction, as Void is not only a fundamental part of Dreams, but also he is the Dreams himself, and since he is but half of what Illumina is, she would also naturally have all aspects of her divided self

Seems...fine? Not sure what changes/effects this would have.

Higher Dimensional Existence​

the dream worlds are accepted as universal+/4D constructs/worlds, Void(and by proxy his complete self, Illumina) is said to not only be part of Dreams, but to be a Dream himself, this is an already accepted thing in both Void's and Illumina's profiles, now it would also give them Higher Dimensional Existance on a 4D level since Dreams are 4D universal space times

​

This is fine.

How does Chaos Energy relate to all this?​

Chaos Energy is said to be what gives all living things both "energy" and "vitality", which would include living beings such as Void, The End and Ilumina, Chaos Energy is a fundamental part of them, being their vitality and energy and as such, it would gain an existance similar to them all, since it is naturally a part of them

Eh, is The End really a "living" thing? It seems more like an eldritch god.

 

[Remus1998]

Seems...fine? Not sure what changes/effects this would have.

I think he's tryna go for Layered AE

 

[omegabronic]

It doesn’t state that Chaos Energy gives vitality, but the Emeralds.

Potato potato, the Emeralds do the stuff via Chaos Energy, besides there is also the blatant Energy part

In that regard it seems more likely the statement is referring to just Sonic’s universe, since there are other sets of Emeralds and other cosmic power sources in the multiverse that shape their respective realities (like the World Rings).

nothing indicates that it is just Sonic's universe, these other things don't have the statements that the Emeralds have, besides, i am not proposing that the emeralds shape reality via existing, so no idea where you got that from

Super Sonic being produced by channeling dream energy doesn’t inherently mean the Emeralds give life to these dream based entities.

I.....didn't used anything like that as evidence tho?

Eh, is The End really a "living" thing? It seems more like an eldritch god.

By all accounts it is, being a god doesn't make you undead

 

[Eseseso]

But The End was just an incarnation/avatar of its true self (in the dub, that is, no idea what the Japanese dub says).

 

[ThatBusyDude]

Seems...fine? Not sure what changes/effects this would have.

This is fine.

Eh, is The End really a "living" thing? It seems more like an eldritch god.

The End is an embodiment of death, I’m not sure if we should consider it living.

 

[JJSliderman]

Considering the descriptions of the CE giving life were all in the classic era, before the series really began exploring alt universes heavily and before Shuffle existed, and since the CE have always been pretty closely tied to Sonic’s universe in particular going off Rush.

I just don’t think the intent was for them to supply vitality to these dream entities.

 

[omegabronic]

Considering the descriptions of the CE giving life were all in the classic era, before the series really began exploring alt universes heavily and before Shuffle existed

I don't see how that matters for what the statement is saying

and since the CE have always been pretty closely tied to Sonic’s universe in particular going off Rush.

We don't know that, the Chaos Emeralds most of the time stayed in different universes from Sonic's, the special stages, so them being connected when most of the time they are not even in the said universe doesn't work

I just don’t think the intent was for them to supply vitality to these dream entities.

well....can you prove the intent?

 

[JJSliderman]

You have to prove that the CE giving life to everything including these dream entities is true, since most of them were made before Void existed as a concept.

 

[omegabronic]

You have to prove that the CE giving life to everything including these dream entities is true

officially stated that all living thing gain their vitality and energy from them, Void and Illumina are living things

since most of them were made before Void existed as a concept.

You have to prove and show evidence that these statements have the limitations that you are affirming when nothing indicates that they do, there is no reason to not apply to them, it is not contradicted and nothing indicates a retcon to not include some living beings, the statement is clear, if you want to limit it to something specific that is not said in the statements, then the burden of proof to prove said limitations falls on you, not me

The statement says "all living things" so we must consider it to applying to all living things, that is simple and straight, requiring no assumption whatsoever

 

[ThatBusyDude]

I agree with the additions.

 

[JJSliderman]

officially stated that all living thing gain thier vitality and energy from them, Void and Illumina are living things


You have to prove and show evidence that these statements have the limitations that you are affirming when nothing indicates that they do, there is no reason to not apply to them, it is not contradicted and nothing indicates a retcon to not include some living beings, the state is clear, if you want to limit it to something spacific that is not said in the statements, then the burden of proof to prove said limitations falls on you, not me

The statement says "all living things" so we must consider it to applying to all living things, that is simple and straight, requiring no assumption whatsoever

Except the statement was made before Void even existed, and Void has no explicit connection with the Chaos Emeralds. Why would the Chaos Emeralds, which possess a strong connection to specifically Sonic’s universe as shown by Rush, and were primarily used by the Ancients in the past who exist in Sonic’s universe, randomly give life to Illumina, who exists in a separate unrelated universe? Why are there multiple Emerald sets if it’s specifically the Chaos Emeralds giving life to everything? As the parallel to them, the Sol Emeralds should fulfill a similar function and are tied to Blaze’s universe, meaning the statement is already contradicted.

 

[ThatBusyDude]

Except the statement was made before Void even existed, and Void has no explicit connection with the Chaos Emeralds. Why would the Chaos Emeralds, which possess a strong connection to specifically Sonic’s universe as shown by Rush, and were primarily used by the Ancients in the past who exist in Sonic’s universe, randomly give life to Illumina, who exists in a separate unrelated universe? Why are there multiple Emerald sets if it’s specifically the Chaos Emeralds giving life to everything? As the parallel to them, the Sol Emeralds should fulfill a similar function and are tied to Blaze’s universe, meaning the statement is already contradicted.

There being multiple emerald sets doesn’t equate to the chaos emeralds giving vitality to all living things statement being contradicted and I don’t think anyone said that the Ancient’s gave their emeralds to Illumina.

What was said was that despite their being multiple universes and subspaces in the classic era the statement that the emeralds gave vitality to all living things was still being pushed despite that.

It’s also explained that the sol emeralds are the South Pole to the chaos emeralds’ North Pole in Sonic Rush therefore the sol emeralds can be deemed to be a version of the chaos emeralds and therefore doesn’t contradict the statement.

 

[ShakeResounding]

As the creator of the two separate blogs being used here, I'm just neutral with some slight disagreement in some parts.

I don't think that Cyber Space being in Maginaryworld would be indicative of there needing to be layers within their abstractions interacting. However, I do see some sort of superiority within Dreams using Illumina that I'm unsure can be quantified.

Neutral on the Chaos Emerald stuff, but I once again see merit in the fact that Illumina/Lumina/Void are living beings by extension (even if they are 4D).

 

[ThatBusyDude]

As the creator of the two separate blogs being used here, I'm just neutral with some slight disagreement in some parts.

I don't think that Cyber Space being in Maginaryworld would be indicative of there needing to be layers within their abstractions interacting. However, I do see some sort of superiority within Dreams using Illumina that I'm unsure can be quantified.

Neutral on the Chaos Emerald stuff, but I once again see merit in the fact that Illumina/Lumina/Void are living beings by extension (even if they are 4D).

Shake, why would being higher dimensional matter? They are living beings, the statement makes no restrictions to higher dimensions and lower dimensions…

 

[ShakeResounding]

It's five words. Just ignore it.

 

[omegabronic]

Except the statement was made before Void even existed, and Void has no explicit connection with the Chaos Emeralds.

the first one really doesn't matter unless you have proof of a retcon or statement of it not applying to Void and Illumina, and for the second part, well, i don't see the relevance of it for the statement

Why would the Chaos Emeralds, which possess a strong connection to specifically Sonic’s universe as shown by Rush

They having a connection means very little, besides it is not even true as they most of the time hang around in other universes, also, by that point lives in other universes, such as fang, were already introduced, so this argument seems even more shot down

and were primarily used by the Ancients in the past who exist in Sonic’s universe, randomly give life to Illumina, who exists in a separate unrelated universe?

because it gives vitality and energy to all living things, it is stated to do that, this is nothing but an argument of disbelief of your part

Why are there multiple Emerald sets if it’s specifically the Chaos Emeralds giving life to everything?

Why does one matter to the other? This is a non sequitur to the letter

As the parallel to them, the Sol Emeralds should fulfill a similar function and are tied to Blaze’s universe, meaning the statement is already contradicted.

There is no contradiction, as the counterparts they doing what the chaos emeralds do as well is vert much possible, what stops both for giving life to all life? Nothing, you are creating a contradiction in your own sense of disbelief in the statement, creating limits that may just not be true and that are not supported by anything but your own word, both sets existing and having the same function doesn't contradict that they give life and energy to all living beings, specially when the life part was never said to be isolated to each universe, specially since the emeralds are most normally not in Sonic's universe to begin with



If you wish to continue to go on with this, i suggest trying to solid your points with statements and such instead of just disbelieving and creating non stated limits that you think make sense in your personal opinion

 

[ThatBusyDude]

It's five words. Just ignore it.

Fair.

 

[omegabronic]

As the creator of the two separate blogs being used here, I'm just neutral with some slight disagreement in some parts.

Thank you for the imput shake

I don't think that Cyber Space being in Maginaryworld would be indicative of there needing to be layers within their abstractions interacting.
However, I do see some sort of superiority within Dreams using Illumina that I'm unsure can be quantified.

Neutral on the Chaos Emerald stuff, but I once again see merit in the fact that Illumina/Lumina/Void are living beings by extension (even if they are 4D).

For cyber space, information type 2 and concepts type 1 serve the same purpose per their descriptions of their pages, shaping all of reality while existing independently of said reality, so they would normally be comparable in abstraction levels, with one defining the other, one would now be superior in abstraction level

 

[JJSliderman]

the first one really doesn't matter unless you have proof of a retcon or statement of it not applying to Void and Illumina, and for the second part, well, i don't see the relevance of it for the statement

The fact that the Chaos Emeralds aren’t the strongest artifacts in the series should prove their reach does not extend to everything by default, there should be an explicit connection between Void and the Emeralds to justify things, especially when the statements for the Emeralds existed at a time when the only alternate dimensions were stuff like the Flicky dimension, Sonic’s world, and the special stages that are almost entirely devoid of living beings. And I think it’s easier to claim the Emeralds gave life to random birds than it is to the god of dreams.

They having a connection means very little, besides it is not even true as they most of the time hang around in other universes, also, by that point lives in other universes, such as fang, were already introduced, so this argument seems even more shot down

Then having a connection and primarily established at the time as being used primarily in Sonic’s universe makes it more likely it’s referring to Sonic’s universe.

because it gives vitality and energy to all living things, it is stated to do that, this is nothing but an argument of disbelief of your part

Again, never specified it gives life to beings across all of space-time to justify it

Why does one matter to the other? This is a non sequitur to the letter

Because if there’s multiple sets of Emeralds that are meant to parallel each other in their roles, then the Chaos Emeralds are not solely responsible for granting vitality across the multiverse, which sort of goes against interpreting the quote as the Chaos Emeralds being solely responsible. It never says Chaos Energy either, that’s just extrapolating and headcanon.

There is no contradiction, as the counterparts they doing what the chaos emeralds do as well is vert much possible, what stops both for giving life to all life? Nothing, you are creating a contradiction in your own sense of disbelief in the statement, creating limits that may just not be true and that are not supported by anything but your own word, both sets existing and having the same function doesn't contradict that they give life and energy to all living beings, specially when the life part was never said to be isolated to each universe, specially since the emeralds are most normally not in Sonic's universe to begin with.

The fact these statements exist before the sol emeralds came into being can help the retcon idea, the Sol Emeralds can be responsible for granting life in their dimension while the CE grant life in their dimension. The idea of artifacts being chained to specific dimensions isn’t even unfounded if the world rings are anything to go by.

 

[omegabronic]

The fact that the Chaos Emeralds aren’t the strongest artifacts in the series should prove their reach does not extend to everything by default

non sequitur, one matters in nothing for the other

there should be an explicit connection between Void and the Emeralds to justify things, especially when the statements for the Emeralds existed at a time when the only alternate dimensions were stuff like the Flicky dimension, Sonic’s world, and the special stages that are almost entirely devoid of living beings. And I think it’s easier to claim the Emeralds gave life to random birds than it is to the god of dreams.

i don't need to show proof of something that is stated, they give life and energy to all living things, Illumina and Void are living things, so they give both of those to them

i will ignore when you repeat this point yet again unless you show any evidence or reason for me needing more proof for something that would obviously be included in the statement, i already have the proof needed, you requesting more because you find it hard to believe in nothing more than incredulity fallacy, it is nothing more than your own opinion, you can have opinions, but i am not obligated to follow them, specially when you don't give evidence or reason for them other than "i think that it is hard to believe"

Then having a connection and primarily established at the time as being used primarily in Sonic’s universe makes it more likely it’s referring to Sonic’s universe.

repeating yourself will not convince anyone, the statement does not limit to Sonic's universe, nor does anything states that this capability of the emeralds does, specially since they are not even in the universe for the majority of the time, i will also start to ignore this if you keep repeating like this without showing evidence for such

Again, never specified it gives life to beings across all of space-time to justify it

disbelief and repeat once again, the statement is "all living beings" so it is to "all living beings", give evidence of the contrary or don't repeat yourself

Because if there’s multiple sets of Emeralds that are meant to parallel each other in their roles, then the Chaos Emeralds are not solely responsible for granting vitality across the multiverse, which sort of goes against interpreting the quote as the Chaos Emeralds being solely responsible.

it is said that they are the source for it, nothing stops others for fulfilling this function as well, them doing so doesn't contradict anything, the only example we have are the Sol Emeralds, which....don't really have anything contradicting the statement

It never says Chaos Energy either, that’s just extrapolating and headcanon.

all they do is with Chaos Energy, specially that they only have that energy to give, it is not headcanon, it is basic logic on how they function and what they use to do what they do

The fact these statements exist before the sol emeralds came into being can help the retcon idea, the Sol Emeralds can be responsible for granting life in their dimension while the CE grant life in their dimension.

that is a headcanon, please show evidence for this, the Sol Emeralds existing does not contradict the statement, it happening before the Sol Emeralds were a thing is a non factor unless you can show contradictions, which you didn't so far

The idea of artifacts being chained to specific dimensions isn’t even unfounded if the world rings are anything to go by.

the world rings have no conection to the Chaos Emeralds at all, they serve in nothing to this thread

 

[JJSliderman]

My point is that when the people who wrote that statement did write it, they did not consider any ramifications or changes to the cosmology, and assuming the statement is future proofed to account for those is ridiculous. If a statement like this existed after Shuffle came out I’d buy it, as it stands I hard disagree.

 

[omegabronic]

My point is that when the people who wrote that statement did write it, they did not consider any ramifications or changes to the cosmology

Well, now you are making affirmations about something you couldn't possibly know, we can't argue based on what we think the developers thought off, we have to argue based on what the lore of a seried shows, as that has priority

and assuming the statement is future proofed to account for those is ridiculous.

why would it be? The lore asserts a thing, this said thing doesn't get contradicted in future stalements, right now you are legit saying for us to ignore explicit direct statements with no reason but "it is ridiculous"

Anyway, i suggest we both stop to not clogg the thread

 

[JJSliderman]

The statement was made in regards to what we knew at the time, and the fact that no similar statements have been made since the classic era only reinforces to me they aren’t referring to Maginaryworld or Blaze’s world or anything similar. It’s not a “lore statement”, it’s a couple one off sentences in some manuals released over 20 years ago.

 

[omegabronic]

The statement was made in regards to what we knew at the time

THe statement was made in regards to the lore and functions of what the emeralds do

and the fact that no similar statements have been made since the classic era only reinforces to me they aren’t referring to Maginaryworld or Blaze’s world or anything similar.

it is not "reinforcing" because there is nothing saying that they are refering only to specific lives, that is something you came up with, it being old in comparison to those things are not evidence that it doesn't involve them, specially since in verse they would already exist by the time of the statements

It’s not a “lore statement”, it’s a couple one off sentences in some manuals released over 20 years ago.

Not one offs, statements explaining the story of the games, are you suggesting thay we can't use any manual statement period? That we have to ignore the information in them when they become "old" in your view? That doesn't make sense


If you will continue with this, ok, i will he going out now, will not be online until later, i suggest you stoping to not clogg the thread, you asserted your view, i did mine, let us leave at that for the moment

 

[JJSliderman]

Fine, you can put me as disagree for the stuff involving Chaos Energy and neutral for the rest.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I'm neutral on the layers of abstraction but I think it's possible. I agree with Higher-Dimensional Existence for the respective characters but I'm leaning towards disagreeing with chaos energy stuff as I've tried a similar thing regarding that sort of logic and it didn't qualify but since the verse is different I'm not outright saying it's not possible, just that I'm not fully on board with it.

 

[omegabronic]

I'm neutral on the layers of abstraction but I think it's possible. I agree with Higher-Dimensional Existence for the respective characters but I'm leaning towards disagreeing with chaos energy stuff as I've tried a similar thing regarding that sort of logic and it didn't qualify but since the verse is different I'm not outright saying it's not possible, just that I'm not fully on board with it.

What exactly is the problem with the chaos energy part? What is the reasoning against it?

 

[Phsccarvalho]

What exactly is the problem with the chaos energy part? What is the reasoning against it?

Beings made of higher dimensional energy such as 4D, 5D, etc. do not qualify for HDE. Like, you are a being made entirely of magic that is considered 4D, you don't have HDE even with that. Is there something to do with energy not having dimensional axes? I don't know, I'm not a science and math guy.

 

[omegabronic]

Beings made of higher dimensional energy such as 4D, 5D, etc. do not qualify for HDE. Like, you are a being made entirely of magic that is considered 4D, you don't have HDE even with that. Is there something to do with energy not having dimensional axes? I don't know, I'm not a science and math guy.

i was more talking about the energy being higher dimensional than giving it HDE, when i said "same level of existence" i never said to give the Energy Higher Dimensional Existence

 

[omegabronic]

I'm neutral on the layers of abstraction but I think it's possible. I agree with Higher-Dimensional Existence for the respective characters but I'm leaning towards disagreeing with chaos energy stuff as I've tried a similar thing regarding that sort of logic and it didn't qualify but since the verse is different I'm not outright saying it's not possible, just that I'm not fully on board with it.

i think that there was some confusion in the wording, i changed it to reflect better what i meant in the chaos energy part

 

[LordGriffin1000]

What exactly is the problem with the chaos energy part? What is the reasoning against it?

It's as Phsccarvalho said in there commenr.

Beings made of higher dimensional energy such as 4D, 5D, etc. do not qualify for HDE. Like, you are a being made entirely of magic that is considered 4D, you don't have HDE even with that. Is there something to do with energy not having dimensional axes? I don't know, I'm not a science and math guy.

For some reason, "energy" can't have dimensional axis. So while chaos energy can be 4-D in potency, it cannot be 4-D in dimensionality which it think sound stupid but I didn't make the rules, the more knowledgeable members on that subject have pointed that out to me.

i was more talking about the energy being higher dimensional than giving it HDE, when i said "same level of existence" i never said to give the Energy Higher Dimensional Existence

Potency is fine. However, don't we already treat chose energy as 4-D in potency?

 

[Phsccarvalho]

i think that there was some confusion in the wording, i changed it to reflect better what i meant in the chaos energy part

That is, energy cannot have higher dimensionality, but rather power. So the chaos thing would have 4D power and 3D dimensionality or something like that. So being at the same level of existence wouldn't make any difference logically.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

How does Chaos Energy relate to all this?​

Chaos Energy is said to be what gives all living things both "energy" and "vitality", which would include living beings such as Void, The End and Ilumina, Chaos Energy is a fundamental part of them, being their vitality and energy and as such, it would gain an existence similar to them all, since it is naturally a part of them, so all

In addition to that you literally say that because chaos energy is part of them they would have HDE and it doesn't work like that.

 

[omegabronic]

It's as Phsccarvalho said in there commenr.

For some reason, "energy" can't have dimensional axis. So while chaos energy can be 4-D in potency, it cannot be 4-D in dimensionality which it think sound stupid but I didn't make the rules, the more knowledgeable members on that subject have pointed that out to me.


Potency is fine. However, don't we already treat chose energy as 4-D in potency?

well.....not that i know of, if we did, this serves as more additional proof for it, i was talking about potency, so i assume that now i can count you as "agree" since the problem you had was about HDE when in reality i am suggesting potency?

 

[omegabronic]

In addition to that you literally say that because chaos energy is part of them they would have HDE and it doesn't work like that.

i didn't said that, i was talking about it having potency on a 4D level

 

[LordGriffin1000]

well.....not that i know of, if we did, this serves as more additional proof for it, i was talking about potency, so i assume that now i can count you as "agree" since the problem you had was about HDE when in reality i am suggesting potency?

Yeah, I'm fine with it now. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

What does this all mean btw?

What layered Abstract existence gives to the character?

Invulnerability of sorts?

Can anyone explain it to me so i can understand please ;-;?

 

[omegabronic]

What does this all mean btw?

What layered Abstract existence gives to the character?

Invulnerability of sorts?

Can anyone explain it to me so i can understand please ;-;?

It gives exactly what normal Abstract existence gives but better