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Illumina major downgrade

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Everyone should calm the heck down.

1) People have stated their own opinions. Deciding the result is up to debate, and accusing others of being fanboys or haters isn't a debate.

2) " the Everlasting said in the old thread that he didn't 'knew' about Sonic Shuffle, so he's not the most knowledgeable person on the subject"

Yeah, that was in an older thread. Right now his opinion is different. And besides, watching all of Shuffle's cutscenes pretty much gives you enough knowl├▓edge to have an opinion about its tiering.

To be fair though, while Ever has been very helpful to the wiki, and he still is, I can't really say that he can actually have an open debate if he's outside of the wiki. The best he can do is just stating his opinion, which, however, while he may be knowledgeable on Multiversal tiering, doesn't move the thread forward that much.

3) Shuffle's canonicity issue has already been debated and concluded. If anyone disagrees should rather make another thread entirely rather than shifting this one's discussion, as even if Shuffle was non-canon, this thread is still about and would still effect Illumina's Tier and Abilities.

With that said, while I'm still overall unsure, I'm somewhat leaning towards Cal's arguments.
 
The biggest problem is that the same arguments were already rejected before by the same reasons that Shadow has said and no new arguments have been made, at this point it feels as the only reason against 2-B Illumina is that Sonic would be 2-B as well
 
Theuser789 said:
Sonic Shuffle was agreed to be canon here:https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2802630?useskin=oasis

No new arguments were made against 2-B Marginary World and the Everlasting said in the old thread that he didn't knew about Sonic Shuffle, so he's not the most knowledgeable person on the subject.

At this point Illumina isn't 2-B because people don't want Sonic to be 2-B
Click to expand...
Shuffle being canon was already settled
 
Well let's see from the thread....

-Sonic Team, the main group who develops the Sonic games oversaw and participated in the development of the game with Hudson Soft.

-It doesn't contradict any established lore.

-No one from SEGA or Sonic Team has come out and said the game is not canon. I've searched multiple times and found nothing proving this.

-Notable staff such as Akinori Nishiyama and Yuji Uekawa who supervised Sonic Shuffle's development have also worked on Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Heroes, Sonic Rush series, Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic 06, storybook games, Sonic Generations, etc.

With that being said, why single out Sonic Shuffle? It seems rather arbitrary to do so, even though this is more of an issue with Sonic canon in general, so it's something I think is worth discussing.Even though the statement happened a while back doesn't discredit it so it's undoubtedly canon
 
Although I'm in no place of authority to say so I do believe the thread should be concluded immediately as it's just creating problems and hostility and the arguments presented have been debunked by Shadow already and while Ever's input is important he just stated there was no proof of Maginary World being 2-B which is false.Shadow honestly makes the best case here and a lot more people support his claims than are against.

Matt calling everyone against the upgrade "desperate fanboys" is extremely unnecessary.
 
Let's stop the derailing please.
 
Sure what Matt said was uncalled for about "Desperate Fans", but he is right that Twitter comments aren't enough to prove something's canonicity. And regardless of whether or not it's canon, Everlasting gave input and after reevaluating the scans; he doesn't seem to consider Illumina 2-B. He said there's no proof of them being universes or even just one being called "The 4th Dimension" was just flowery language. Matt also said he was the one who made the profile and originally made her and Solaris 2-B, but he doesn't agree with them being 2-B anymore. If the original creator of the profile doesn't agree with Illumina's rating, then that's kind of an important indicator.
 
-The person who posted the canonity was someone who worked on the game and with Sega so the post is legit unless proved otherwise.We treat tweets from devs to be legit I know for a fact.

-While Matt and Ever are knowledgeable they haven't addressed Shadows claims or points which is the main reasons I'm against the downgrade

-I only agree that this thread should be concluded ASAP to prevent hostilities
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Sure what Matt said was uncalled for about "Desperate Fans", but he is right that Twitter comments aren't enough to prove something's canonicity. And regardless of whether or not it's canon, Everlasting gave input and after reevaluating the scans; he doesn't seem to consider Illumina 2-B. He said there's no proof of them being universes or even just one being called "The 4th Dimension" was just flowery language. Matt also said he was the one who made the profile and originally made her and Solaris 2-B, but he doesn't agree with them being 2-B anymore. If the original creator of the profile doesn't agree with Illumina's rating, then that's kind of an important indicator.
Click to expand...
Matt reasons for Illumina being 2-B in the older thread are the same reasons that Shadow is using and he hasn't said anything why those arguments are suddenly wrong, and creating a profile is diferent from creating a character, both him and Everlasting haven't given proof that their intrepretartion is valid and the 4th dimension is flowery language, Everlasting also isn't that knowledgeable person on Shuffle
 
Oblivion is right, I feel like it's only been me that's been addressing most of Shadow's major statements. At times it felt like it was just the two of us even though other people are here. It's also annoying when I repeatedly make walls of text but people never even break them down or acknowledge then they just push my arguments to the side as if they're fodder trash.
 
@Andy, I know that, but Everlasting is usually more elaborate and complex. Also, that was beforehand that he didn't know much about Shuffle and was the reason he was initially fine with 2-B. But still, they've apparently evaluated and so has Matt by the looks of it; and they're still quite knowledgeable. And Matt is especially knowledgeable. Not to mention, we already had discussions about "4th Dimension" statement that it doesn't always refer to temporal transcendance. Sera is inactive and is going to be for at least a month, but I would have also asked her about this. They aren't described as being Space-Time continuums either.

And Zamasu has also explained in detail.
 
To get an overview of the thread I gathered these votes

Agree with Downgrade:(4)DDM,Matt,Cal,Zamasu

Disagree with Downgrade:(14) Me,Oblivion,Smashor,Shadow,The User,Shake,Violet Void,ED,Da Boi who owns Mods,JJ Sliderman,Spinror,JJmil,Sadistic,Glaceon

I know votes don't really count but it's just an overview on who agrees and who doesn't.Feel Free to correct me if necessary
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
@Andy, I know that, but Everlasting is usually more elaborate and complex. Also, that was beforehand that he didn't know much about Shuffle and was the reason he was initially fine with 2-B. But still, they've apparently evaluated and so has Matt by the looks of it; and they're still quite knowledgeable. And Matt is especially knowledgeable. Not to mention, we already had discussions about "4th Dimension" statement that it doesn't always refer to temporal transcendance. Sera is inactive and is going to be for at least a month, but I would have also asked her about this. They aren't described as being Space-Time continuums either.
Click to expand...
They haven't said anything why those arguments are now suddenly wrong just because Sonic might get upgraded, before everything was fine and Zamasu arguments were debunked by Shadow, the same arguments brought in this thread were rejected in the past by the same reasons that Shadow is saying, there still no explanation why those reasons are wrong now.
 
Honestly all i'm seeing here is "Ever is right because he's Ever and Matt is right because he's knowledgeble"

Neither of them have given any real arguments for why the downgrade is acceptable, Matt literally only came to this thread to say "WoG is wrong" and insult everyone who is against the downgrade.

Personally i'm neutral, but i have yet to see anyone outside of Zamasu and Cal to give any real arguments to support this.
 
Alright because progression in a Sonic thread is so asinine, let's start this again.

Now, Shadow's main point is the worlds are universe sized and exists outside of the Fourth Dimension Space (I'm calling it FDS from now on).

Keep in mind Lumina says they're in the FDS while flying past the infamous bubbles Shadow keeps bringing up. He's also arguing these same bubbles are space time continuums. Sonic says the worlds they traveled through are present within the FDS and the FDS itself is said to hold all dreams. This ultimately proves that the dream worlds aren't outside of the FDS.

As for the size, nothing remotely states, implies or even shows that the dream worlds are universe sized, there's just no evidence. Yes there are day and night cycles but stars are all over the FDS and Maginaryworld.

https://youtu.be/atZejfXJ7RM

At 39:55 Shadow brought up that Fire Bird was its own space time because of the celestial object we see our characters jump into. However, this is at best a galaxy because of the cluster of stars, you could tell just by looking at it. Also whenever a level (dream world) is selected, they always enter that one celestial body, showing that at least most of the dreams are in one area and showing that they are not universe sized.

EVERYONE PLEASE give your opinion on this as we should be discussing from now on. Please do NOT derail this thread.
 
I'm convinced you could equate the meaning of the word "world" to universe sized dimension for the Sonic Shuffle case, it was used in a blanket statement in referring to Sonic's separate universe sized dimension from Imaginaryworld here:

http://info.sonicretro.org/index.php?title=File:SonicShuffle_DC_US_manual.pdf&page=4

"Send out a message to the other worlds in search of a hero who can help restore Maginaryworld."

Imaginaryworld is a world housing multiple worlds

"look, the worlds we travelled through"

Localization-wise I use Engrish tho, the JAPANESE manual has this fan translation on here:

http://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_Shuffle_manuals
 
-Well Dreams are inherently 4-D space as stated by Smashor(The same with the Dream Depot in Mario and Luigi Dream Team)it's even called 4-D Space.

-The Dreams in Maginary World have been described as alternate dimensions alternate to the dimension Sonic and his friends live in which is obviously Universe sized.They have been described as such in The manual


-While Yes There is nothing outright stating the dreams are Universes they are created to mirror the dimension which is Universe sized of the characters dreaming them.
 
The difference is that both Dream Team and Mario Party 5 have described Dream Worlds as being entire universes, so that's not really the best comparison.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
The difference is that both Dream Team and Mario Party 5 have described Dream Worlds as being entire universes, so that's not really the best comparison.
Click to expand...
Have they? When?

I remember them having stars in the background, but where does the universe statememts come from? (Actually, since this is derailment, can you send me them at my wall?)
 
You learn something new everyday....

Ok I guess we should drop the Dream Depot as an example but my other point still stands.The manual describes the Dreams in Maginary World as alternate dimensions to the one Sonic and Co live in which is obviously Universe size.Thus each dream is in a sense a parallel to to the main Universe as described in the manual.Also Mephistus makes so good points above.
 
Oblivion Lightning said:
I would also like to add that it even states where Reality and Dreams coincide adding further proof to the being Universe is size
Click to expand...
That doesn't prove anything, actually. It just means that there, Dreams are real.
 
Fourth Dimension Space is the realm where the dreams of everyone are stored.

The cluster of stars/galaxy is a visual representation of what the entrance to the dream is shown as.In the Game Gods Play the Omniverse Orbs contain infinite multiverses and infinite dimensional planes but the orbs are shown as balls with galaxies and nebulas as only a mere design the Orbs have 1-A properties not 3-C properties it's merely the design.The same thing would apply here it's merely the design.That also doesn't take into account the fact that each dream is a alternate reality of the main line Universe where Sonic and Co live in.This is explained in the Sonic Shuffle Manual
 
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