Huge DBZ Toei Upgrade Part 2 - The Meta, Shifted

[CRIMPSUMPSKI2]

As a follow up to this thread, which received unanimous agreement from staff and layman alike, I decided to revise the AP blog using many new statements and lines of scaling. The key changes are as follows:

• Saiyan and Namek Sagas get huge multiplier changes and backscaling due to several statements from Dragon Ball Forever and the Super Exciting Guide.
• Due to the fact that Oozaru multiplies the user's battle power rather than just "strength" plainly, a few characters will be rated accordingly. Mainly, Oozaru Vegeta and Post-Gravity Training Kaioken x2 Goku will scale to each other due to both having a BP of 180k, and second form Freeza will be > Kaioken x10 Post-Gravity Training Goku due to being at over 1 million, above Goku's 900k with Kaioken x10.
• Paikuhan, or Pikkon, will get a major revision, as his weighted self (the same one that two-shot Super Perfect Cell) was comparable to, if not weaker than base Goku (and Goku got far stronger since he first met Paikuhan by the time of their match). Since unweighted Paikuhan can fight Super Saiyan Goku, his unweighted self will get a 50x amp in both speed and AP.

I have yet to do the scaling for the Garlic Jr. arc as I do not remember it very well, but from what I've heard from @pineappleman, its higher tiers should scale to about 2x to 20x above the Garlic Jr. feat.

If anything gets rejected or if something new gets brought to my attention, I'll edit the blog accordingly. Please make sure to read the entire blog before commenting.

Agree: @TheGreatBanana, @LuffyRuffy46307, @TiltedFN, @ShakeResounding, @Ednaxel2, @LordGriffin1000, @MrHazama, @Huesito88, @Serlock_Holmes, @TheGodOfICE777, @XXBenShapiroXx, @Planck69, @LephyrTheRevanchist, @UchihaSlayer96, @Nierre, @SSJGeminiJJ
Neutral:
Disagree: @Nullflowerblush (With using SEG and DBF multipliers)

 

[TheGreatBanana]

bro's cooking streak isn't ending .
I agree obvsly

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Who would have thought that Frieza leaving a hole in space would be higher than his blast enveloping a large as a significant portion of a galaxy lol
Looks alright at a glance, you forgot Zarbon's multiplier which would increase all values after his appearence, but ye

 

[CRIMPSUMPSKI2]

Looks alright at a glance, you forgot Zarbon's multiplier which would increase all values after his appearence, but ye

there doesn't seem to be a stated multiplier for Zarbon

 

[CRIMPSUMPSKI2]

there doesn't seem to be a stated multiplier for Zarbon

nvm I'm blind lol lemme add it

 

[CRIMPSUMPSKI2]

nvm I'm blind lol lemme add it

it's on it

 

[Huesito88]

Cell Saga Characters are now in the Yottafoe Range and scale to Quadrillions of times FTL. Ohhh now there's some matches that can be done.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Star level Raditz saga yessss!

 

[Nullflowerblush]

• Saiyan and Namek Sagas get huge multiplier changes and backscaling due to several statements from Dragon Ball Forever and the Super Exciting Guide.

Not particularly a fan. Mainly because FOREVER and the Super Exciting Guide are companion pieces for the kanzenban manga re-release.

 

[CRIMPSUMPSKI2]

Not particularly a fan. Mainly because FOREVER and the Super Exciting Guide are companion pieces for the kanzenban manga re-release.

SEG does lift some information from the anime iirc (AxB Fusion) but I generally think of stuff from the manga being able to apply to the anime where it's not contradicted

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Not particularly a fan. Mainly because FOREVER and the Super Exciting Guide are companion pieces for the kanzenban manga re-release.

I mean, the anime is primarily an adaptation, don't see why those statements also wouldn't apply to the anime

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Hehehe, Frieza going head to head with Saitama, I definitely agree.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Blog looks extremely great, but I still have some critiques. You should make it for all of Z and add speed in conjunction like Vizer’s blog.

 

[TiltedFN]

Great work, agree

 

[CRIMPSUMPSKI2]

You should make it for all of Z and add speed in conjunction like Vizer’s blog.

Will do, not rn though I'm tired

 

[Nullflowerblush]

SEG does lift some information from the anime iirc (AxB Fusion)

This information originated in the TV anime?

I mean, the anime is primarily an adaptation, don't see why those statements also wouldn't apply to the anime

Because the TV anime is its own continuity? The Daizenshuu? Sure; the Daizenshuu is a Dragon Ball Encyclopedia and covers everything from the manga, to the TV anime, to the films. But again, DRAGON BALL FOREVER and the Super Exciting Guide are explicitly kanzenban guides.

The TV anime may be an adaptation of the original series, but never has the TV anime been an adaptation of the manga's supplementary material, nor does being an adaptation entail anything besides being an adaptation.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

This information originated in the TV anime?

Because the TV anime is its own continuity? The Daizenshuu? Sure; the Daizenshuu is a Dragon Ball Encyclopedia and covers everything from the manga, to the TV anime, to the films. But again, DRAGON BALL FOREVER and the Super Exciting Guide are explicitly kanzenban guides.

The TV anime may be an adaptation of the original series, but never has the TV anime been an adaptation of the manga's supplementary material, nor does being an adaptation entail anything besides being an adaptation.

I don't agree with that. Info should be carried from the manga except if contradicted.

 

[CRIMPSUMPSKI2]

This information originated in the TV anime?

Yep, uses nearly the exact same wording as the SEG one too.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

uses nearly the exact same wording as the SEG one too.

bit of a stretch but okay.

I don't agree with that. Info should be carried from the manga except if contradicted.

Why, though? The TV anime is not carrying over from the manga, the TV anime is adapting the manga's story.
As a matter of fact, the TV anime is the sequel to the original Dragon Ball anime. It exists within its own continuity, by itself.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Different continuity or not, we literally use the Toei Cosmology to give DBS 2-C ratings because Toriyama directly overlooked the anime and gives Toei the thumbs up,
And I think the main reason why the DB FOREVER multipliers are taken as gospel because Toriyama approved them,
So you know

 

[ShakeResounding]

Hm. Looks good to me, I'm under agreement.

Nice work.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Different continuity or not, we literally use the Toei Cosmology to give DBS 2-C ratings because Toriyama directly overlooked the anime and gives Toei the thumbs up,

We give the TV anime's cosmology to Super because the two were accepted as being parallel universes.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

And I think the main reason why the DB FOREVER multipliers are taken as gospel because Toriyama approved them,

They are not "taken as gospel", they are presented, and are then backed up with evidence from the original series and adjoining databooks, and even then, they can be overruled.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

We give the TV anime's cosmology to Super because the two were accepted as being parallel universes.

Ain't that what it was before the recent CRT? Remember some staff let them have the same comsology due to Toriyama's involvement

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

They are not "taken as gospel", they are presented, and are then backed up with evidence from the original series and adjoining databooks, and even then, they can be overruled.

I just meant that we use em lol
Obviously we'd disregard em if they contradict the mango
Like, we're not using that French Guidebook that lists Broly as stronger than SSJ2 Gogeta

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Ain't that what it was before the recent CRT? Remember some staff let them have the same comsology due to Toriyama's involvement

If that were the case, they would have been 2-C before the "recent" CRT.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

If that were the case, they would have been 2-C before the "recent" CRT.

It's a new argument, you can check the thread if ya wanna
The "recent" CRT I'm talking about was originally intented as a downgrade I think

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Different continuity or not, we literally use the Toei Cosmology to give DBS 2-C ratings because Toriyama directly overlooked the anime and gives Toei the thumbs up,

Wait a second, why is this relevant?

Y extending into X does not mean X extends into Y. Is there any proof that Toei looked over FOREVER and signed off on its inclusion?

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Looks good, outside of some hair splitting this seems very solid.

 

[CRIMPSUMPSKI2]

Why, though? The TV anime is not carrying over from the manga, the TV anime is adapting the manga's story.
As a matter of fact, the TV anime is the sequel to the original Dragon Ball anime. It exists within its own continuity, by itself.

The anime may be treated as its own continuity due to things like GT, but it's never talked about that way by any secondary material. From the Daizenshuu, to the Dragon Boxes, and some interviews, all of them treat the anime as just "the Original Story (manga) + other stuff"

• the Daizenshuu's timeline covers the original story + episodes unique to the anime, not two completely separated and independent continuities.
• when talking about the movies, they explicitly talk about the Bardock special existing in the timeline of the original work and anime as opposed to the other movies which have inconsistencies, and are thus in different timelines entirely.
• to add onto the last point even further, they also talk about the Trunks special expanding the original story in the same way as the Bardock special did. They go on to talk about how the anime and manga are "two hearts beating as one", both influencing and expanding on each other.
• when asked if he watches the anime, Toriyama replies "Yeah, it’s my own work, so I at least try to watch it." as opposed to the movies, where he says "I take the movies as “stories in a different dimension from the main story of the comic”. I’m entirely just an audience member for them."
• The Dragon Box booklet for the original Dragon Ball anime talks about how the anime "placing a heavy emphasis on the original manga while expanding certain aspects of the story" while noting how the staff "strengthened their relationship with the original story", eliminating any inconsistencies for the Z anime.

Given how Toriyama has had quite a bit of involvement with the anime (in the early Saiyan arc especially), it seems pretty clear to me that the anime is not viewed as some Toei-only enterprise that's completely isolated from the manga, but rather as a partner to the manga, "Two hearts beating as one," both expanding upon each other and borrowing from one-another.

From what I can tell, the anime is viewed closer to a sort of "Manga+", and therefore applying statements from manga-only guides that could apply to both of them due to their shared storyline is valid imo.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Daizenshuu, yeah, yeah, whatever.

 

[TiltedFN]

can we get staff in here

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

The anime may be treated as its own continuity due to things like GT, but it's never talked about that way by any secondary material. From the Daizenshuu, to the Dragon Boxes, and some interviews, all of them treat the anime as just "the Original Story (manga) + other stuff"

• the Daizenshuu's timeline covers the original story + episodes unique to the anime, not two completely separated and independent continuities.
• when talking about the movies, they explicitly talk about the Bardock special existing in the timeline of the original work and anime as opposed to the other movies which have inconsistencies, and are thus in different timelines entirely.
• to add onto the last point even further, they also talk about the Trunks special expanding the original story in the same way as the Bardock special did. They go on to talk about how the anime and manga are "two hearts beating as one", both influencing and expanding on each other.
• when asked if he watches the anime, Toriyama replies "Yeah, it’s my own work, so I at least try to watch it." as opposed to the movies, where he says "I take the movies as “stories in a different dimension from the main story of the comic”. I’m entirely just an audience member for them."
• The Dragon Box booklet for the original Dragon Ball anime talks about how the anime "placing a heavy emphasis on the original manga while expanding certain aspects of the story" while noting how the staff "strengthened their relationship with the original story", eliminating any inconsistencies for the Z anime.

Given how Toriyama has had quite a bit of involvement with the anime (in the early Saiyan arc especially), it seems pretty clear to me that the anime is not viewed as some Toei-only enterprise that's completely isolated from the manga, but rather as a partner to the manga, "Two hearts beating as one," both expanding upon each other and borrowing from one-another.

From what I can tell, the anime is viewed closer to a sort of "Manga+", and therefore applying statements from manga-only guides that could apply to both of them due to their shared storyline is valid imo.

Mfer cooked

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Mfer cooked

Gourmet with fine wine and dessert.

 

[CRIMPSUMPSKI2]

can we get staff in here

someone @ them

 

[Ednaxel2]

In what thread did Grade 3's multiplier get accepted in? Also agree

 

[CRIMPSUMPSKI2]

In what thread did Grade 3's multiplier get accepted in?

Here

 

[Ednaxel2]

Here

Thanks, should the other AP and speed blogs be updated with this multiplier?

 

[MrHazama]

"Galaxy level+" Toei Cell. . .

You son of a b*tch, I'm in

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Thanks, should the other AP and speed blogs be updated with this multiplier?

We haven't worked out whether the 10x would apply to speed despite there being a clear increase in speed with SSJ2 which is >Grade 3. Right now it's just applying to AP.