Super Holy Water (Dragon Ball)

[Nullflowerblush]

​

Introduction​

In DB:89 • "A Drink of Water", Karin reveals to Goku that the Super Holy Water he had spent three days attempting to attain was regular water, and that by struggling for three days, he had managed to increase his strength by "many-fold" or "many times".

In the English language, "several" is typically regarded as meaning 3-5, and "many" is even greater.

According to this thread on the Kanzenshuu forums, the kanji used in the original Japanese dialogue is "nanbai" (何倍), which literally translates into "manyfold".

Japanese translator, speaker, and current resident Cipher (@Cipher_db) clarifies, though, 何倍 "[implies] 'more than twice as much,' but since strength doesn't really work that way (like, maybe someone could lift twice the weight someone else can, or run twice as fast, but without quantifiables like that, what does it really mean?) ... I'd hesitate to it's meant to be that literal or exact a statement". However, given the context of the usage of the word (i.e., Karin comparing the Goku of today to the Goku of three days ago), the kanji is very likely to be taken literally; its usage can be applied to quantify the difference between the Goku of today and the Goku of three days ago.

"Is the multiplier reliable?"​

Yes.

• The strength-multiplying properties rumored of the Super Holy Water turned out to be the result of the training required to retrieve the Water.
  • The Daizenshuu 2 describes the Super Holy Water as being able to "multiply one's power many times".
• Initially, Goku only managed to ascend Karin's Tower after a day. After his first day, though, he managed to ascend the tower in three hours.
• Before training, Tao tanked his Kamehameha and nearly ended his life with his Dodon Ray. After training, he trumped Tao, even tanking his Dodon Ray.
• On day one, Karin easily trumped over Goku, even besting his Afterimage Attack. On day three, he successfully caught up to Karin and retrieved the water.
• The Daizenshuu 7 explicitly confirms that Goku's training with Karin managed to "increase [his] power many times over".

Results​

"How does this affect the scaling chain?"

Red Ribbon Army Saga Goku currently scales to >4.05672571568 Tons.
Low-balling with x3 buffs Commander Red Saga Goku to >12.1701771 Tons.
High-balling with x5 buffs Goku to >20.2836286 Tons.

This affects:

• Son Goku (Dragon Ball) (Post-Karin Training)
• Krillin (22nd Budokai)
• Yamcha (22nd Budokai)
• Tien Shinhan (22nd Budokai)
• Chiaotzu (22nd Budokai)
• Master Roshi (22nd Budokai)
• Chi-Chi (Dragon Ball) (Adult)
• Yajirobe (King Piccolo Arc)
• Grandpa Gohan
• King Chappa

Additionally, Pre-Dragon Ball Great Ape Goku scales to Grandpa Gohan. As such, Pilaf Saga Goku scales to >1.21701771 Tons to >2.02836286 Tons.

This affects:

• Every relevant character

 

[Nierre]

Agree. Looks good to me. Usually when I use those statements, I go for the lowball, so 3x is fine with me.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Pretty straightforward,
Post-Karin Training Goku being 8-B ain't that far-fetched

 

[Fezzih_007]

Makes sense, don't see nothing wrong with that.
I agree with the 3x times.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Good for using the lowest possible result which is 3x.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

3x is probably good imo.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Seems legit.

 

[Damage3245]

I think this is fine as a 3x multiplier.

 

[Dalesean027]

Ah I was gonna do this one day eventually, yeah I agree to this. @KingTempest my 8-B goku is real

 

[CBslayeR]

Goku can bully Homelander now yippee

 

[Nullflowerblush]

DRAGON BALL LANDMARK adds onto the pile of evidence.

 

[KingTempest]

Ah I was gonna do this one day eventually, yeah I agree to this. @KingTempest my 8-B goku is real

Finally
I agree, nice job

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Kakarot's Z-Encyclopedia repeats the "several times over" metric, too, if anybody is curious.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Yeah, with all this added info and statements, this seems pretty irrefutable. The low ball is definitely a safe play.

 

[Eseseso]

Agree with the CRT, though I'm pretty sure that for "manyfold" multipliers we use 4x.

 

[LaserPrecision]

I agree with the above comment. Several is defined as "more than two, but NOT VERY MANY". More than two is bare minimum 3. So I think 4x as a bare minimum seems fair for the use of many, no?

 

[Eseseso]

We literally use 4x for Gear 4th's multiplier since it is "many", not "several".

 

[MeiouHades]

Disagree for reasons below

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I'm fine with 3x.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

​

• Initially, Goku only managed to ascend Karin's Tower after a day. After his first day, though, he managed to ascend the tower in three hours.

The link to the three hours scan leads to the afterimage scan with Korin.

 

[Eseseso]

I'm fine with 3x.

Agree with the CRT, though I'm pretty sure that for "manyfold" multipliers we use 4x.

 

[Da3ggman]

Would prefer 5x since that would make more sense given the words used, and add more impact to Goku almost ******* dying, but I'll settle for 3x.

 

[Vizer04]

This makes sense and i agree

 

[LordGriffin1000]

@Eseseso Really? If we have that written down as a standard then I'd agree.

 

[Eseseso]

@Eseseso Really? If we have that written down as a standard then I'd agree.

We already use that for G4 Luffy having a 4x multiplier.

Several = 3x, Many = 4x.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

We already use that for G4 Luffy having a 4x multiplier.

Several = 3x, Many = 4x.

I'm not really a fan of the "one person is doing it, so we should do it for the others". However, if overwhelming majority thought "many" should be at least 4x then I'm fine with it. I'd just prefer 3x until otherwise.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

I'm not really a fan of the "one person is doing it, so we should do it for the others". However, if overwhelming majority thought "many" should be at least 4x then I'm fine with it. I'd just prefer 3x until otherwise.

I think many should be 4x, as several makes more sense if its a 3x multiplier

 

[KingTempest]

We already use that for G4 Luffy having a 4x multiplier.

Several = 3x, Many = 4x.

Send the thread where the manyfold was accepted so that they can see the logic of the “manyfold”

 

[Damage3245]

I'm sticking with 3x for now, but if more staff votes for 4x then I won't complain.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Send the thread where the manyfold was accepted so that they can see the logic of the “manyfold”

https://vsbattles.com/threads/one-piece-luffys-gear-fourth-multiplier.115789/

 

[Nullflowerblush]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/one-piece-luffys-gear-fourth-multiplier.115789/

Many > several > 3 = many is, bare minimum, 4. Unless, for whatever reason, many and several quantify all real numbers instead of whole numbers.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Many > several > 3 = many is, bare minimum, 4. Unless, for whatever reason, many and several quantify all real numbers instead of whole numbers.

yes, thats what the thread says

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Many > several > 3 = many is, bare minimum, 4. Unless, for whatever reason, many and several quantify all real numbers instead of whole numbers.

Is that gonna be the mid-end?

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Is that gonna be the mid-end?

low end would be 4, mid end would be like 7 and high end would be 10

 

[Nullflowerblush]

If 4x is used, Pilaf Saga characters are upgraded to At least Building level+.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

So whole premise changes? Then I'm going for 4x.

 

[Spinoirr]

I agree with 4x

 

[LaserPrecision]

I agree with 4x. Several can only mean no less than three, and is defined as being less than "many". Meaning many can ONLY mean 4x at the absolute lowest interpretation. I'd even be fine with 5x, but I don't think staff would be willing to go with that.

 

[Nierre]

if manyfold is x4 then agreed fra

 

[Nullflowerblush]

bump