Trainings of the Turtle School (and etc.) (Dragon Ball)

[Nullflowerblush]

Turtle School P&A​

Students of the Turtle School (i.e., Goku, Krillin, Yamcha, Grandpa Gohan, Ox-King, and Chi-Chi) and Master Roshi all receive:

Martial Arts (The fundamentals of the Turtle School are basic, yet rigorous exercises to instill heightened abilities within its students, mastering and shaping the body and the mind through concentration, cardiovascular fitness, reflex training, and repetitive, drill-like disciplines wearing 20kg and 40kg weights, daily for eight months from as early as 4:30 AM, strengthening the back and legs, the hands and waist, and the entire body beyond the limits of normal humans, thus allowing its students to effortlessly dominate even the finest of martial artists, including the likes of Nam, even without proper combat training)

Acrobatics (By strengthening the waist and legs jogging, delivering milk to areas only accessible by helicopter, including across trees, quicksand, and rivers and away from tyrannosaurus rexes, and engaging in civil engineering, whilst wearing 20kg and 40kg weights, students of the Turtle School develop the strength and agility required to leap "higher than the clouds" with minimal effort, move around opponents with superhuman dexterity, instantly springing into action, easily regain balance and freely manipulate mid-air positioning, and maintain altitude mid-combat within the blink of an eye)

Enhanced Senses (Vision; Learning to evade bees in close proximity is designed to sharpen the eyes and the reflexes, developing one's dynamic vision)

source?

Turtle School Stats​

All Turtle School students scale above Beginning of Series Goku and Krillin, as they had yet to reach superhuman abilities yet.
This only affects Chi-Chi, though.
Unless eight months of non-stop training is enough to bridge the gap between Building level+ and Large Building level.

Goku's Speed​

Goku's reaction speed is upgraded from Subsonic+ to Supersonic.
Goku's (and Krillin's) post-training speed is upgraded from Superhuman to Subsonic+ (if accepted).

Tao Pai Pai's Speed​

As per DRAGON BALL FOREVER, Tao Pai Pai's pillar explicitly travels at 10,000 km/h, or >Mach 8.
This downgrades his combat speed from Hypersonic+ to Hypersonic.

 

[Nierre]

Great work per usual Null

The 40kg link is empty

 

[Nullflowerblush]

****

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Agree

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Updated the OP.

 

[MeiouHades]

Looks good.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Looks good, I agree.

 

[AStrangeverse]

great work

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Nice job, I agree.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks good.

 

[KingTempest]

Nice

 

[Jason_Courne]

Downgrading the Hypersonic+ makes no sense

As per DRAGON BALL FOREVER, Tao Pai Pai's pillar explicitly travels at 10,000 km/h, or >Mach 8.

The manga itself would take precendent over a statement from the guidebook
Not to mention the statement itself is overly vague, it doesn't imply that Mach 8 is the maximum velocity of Tao Pai Pai's pillar throw, it literally just says "Wow, Mach 8?"

In fact it moreso implies the pillar reached speeds way faster than Mach 8

 

[Nullflowerblush]

The manga itself would take precendent over a statement from the guidebook

Yes, the manga would.
A calculation wouldn't.

Not to mention the statement itself is overly vague

"10,000 km/h" is not clear enough?

it doesn't imply that Mach 8 is the maximum velocity of Tao Pai Pai's pillar throw

It does not imply that the pillar gets any faster.

 

[Jason_Courne]

Yes, the manga would.
A calculation wouldn't.

A calculation based off of the manga would supercede a statement from a tertiary source (In general we treat the calculation > the statement)

"10,000 km/h" is not clear enough?

No because it explicitly ends with a question mark, making the statement vague in what it actually means

You're treating it like the statement goes "This pillar thrown by Tao Pai Pai reached a maximum velocity of 10,000 km/h."
When the statement is literally just "Pillar Throw: 10,000 km/h?"

There is absolutely no reason to take this value seriously when the guidebook itself doesn't treat it concretely

 

[Nullflowerblush]

A calculation based off of the manga

But based off of real world physics that Toriyama likely neglected to incorporate into the story, let alone even consider.

No because it explicitly ends with a question mark, making the statement vague in what it actually means

The question mark is not present to express uncertainty, the question mark is present to express surprise.
The entire section is being surprised by unorthodox transportation methods.

 

[Jason_Courne]

But based off of real world physics that Toriyama likely neglected to incorporate into the story, let alone even consider.

The same logic applies to the 10,000 km/h statement, you think the guidebook creators gave a shit about real world physics?
It's the exact same scenario, except one comes from the manga itself and not a tertiary guidebook

The question mark is not present to express uncertainty, the question mark is present to express surprise.
The entire section is being surprised by unorthodox transportation methods.

Suprise does not imply limitation, it implies surpassing

 

[Emerald]

How does this contradict the manga?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

The same logic applies to the 10,000 km/h statement, you think the guidebook creators gave a shit about real world physics?

No, which is why the explicit guidebook statement is unbound by the logic that bounds the fanmade calculation.

Suprise does not imply limitation, it implies surpassing

No, surprise implies being presented with information new to the audience.

 

[Jason_Courne]

No, which is why the explicit guidebook statement is unbound by the logic that bounds the fanmade calculation.

You literally just said "We shouldn't use the calculation from the manga because Toriyama didn't care about physics"
Now we should care about the guidebook statements because the authors didn't care about physics?

No, surprise implies being presented with information new to the audience.

But not limitation in any shape or form

 

[Emerald]

How does this contradict the manga?

Heck it barely contradicts anything. Tao Pai Pai stated that theres a distance of 2300 km between RR HQ and Korin Tower, and that it would take him 30 minutes to complete his task and come back.
Considering the pillar moves at 10.000 km/h, it would take 13 minutes and 48 second to reach the tower, and to get back it would be another 13:48 minutes. So in the end it would be 27 min 36 seconds. Meaning it would take him 2 min 24 sec to kill Goku, which still doesn't contradict what is shown since he "killed" Goku really really fast

 

[KingTempest]

In general we treat the calculation > the statement)

No we do not

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

No we do not

The calculation of the primary canon with a statement from a secondary canon is kind of weird.

 

[Damage3245]

Given the jump occurs in-between two panels, the fact that Goku and Krillin reached superhuman levels of strength, speed, and agility, and that they could effortlessly blitz peak human martial artists, the timeframe is likely 0.1 sec—or Peak Human perception time.

I dunno if this quite works as justification for the timeframe. Blitzing martial artists from very close range isn't quite the same as leaping a distance of nearly 40 meters.

 

[KingTempest]

The calculation of the primary canon with a statement from a secondary canon is kind of weird.

If something has a stated speed, we do not calculate shit to make it faster

That's like calcing a height for a character with a stated height

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

If something has a stated speed, we do not calculate shit to make it faster

That's like calcing a height for a character with a stated height

Okay fair enough.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

I dunno if this quite works as justification for the timeframe. Blitzing martial artists from very close range isn't quite the same as leaping a distance of nearly 40 meters.

I guess that's fair.
A timeframe of 0.2 seconds is probably more acceptable.

 

[Jason_Courne]

If something has a stated speed, we do not calculate shit to make it faster

That's not really how we do it though, the writers aren't writing their characters with physics or mathematics in mind so they can easily give or create incorrect answers
ESPECIALLY since this doesn't come from the manga, it comes from an outside guidebook

Like if a character punched a city block in half and the author went "Yeah that's worth 1,000 newtons of force," that would be obviously incorrect and the statement would be ignored in favor of a calculation
Like the CW Flash, where the characters can exert 3 megatons of tnt, and the writers go "Yeah that's only worth 3 billion joules of energy," we obviously ignored that and slapped on 1 megaton each

The only scenario I can think of where the statement takes priority over a calculation is Cosmic Fear Garou, that's only because logically he could just create a stronger Gamma Ray Burst through his omniscient control of energy and he has shown the ability to reach similar levels of power

 

[KingTempest]

That's not really how we do it though, the writers aren't writing their characters with physics or mathematics in mind so they can easily give or create incorrect answers

Like if a character punched a city block in half and the author went "Yeah that's worth 1,000 newtons of force," that would be obviously incorrect and the statement would be ignored in favor of a calculation
Like the CW Flash, where the characters can exert 3 megatons of tnt, and the writers go "Yeah that's only worth 3 billion joules of energy," we obviously ignored that and slapped on 1 megaton each

The only scenario I can think of where the statement takes priority over a calculation is Cosmic Fear Garou, that's only because logically he could just create a stronger Gamma Ray Burst through his omniscient control of energy and he has shown the ability to reach similar levels of power

Please don't bring up the Flash.
And stop bringing up other series.
Cause when Toriyama pumps multipliers or moon statements nobody bats an eye.
But when he gives a speed for his own characters then it's a problem.

You cannot calculate something with a stated speed unless it's so inconsistent like circling the world at mach 7.
This isn't inconsistent, and it's barely different. It's just not the result you want. Completely different than 3 mt = 3b joules.

 

[Nierre]

I agree with the downgrade, obviously.

 

[Jason_Courne]

Please don't bring up the Flash.
And stop bringing up other series.

I had to, you said "we don't take the calculations over the statements" so I provided an example where, we do. Although I could have found better examples

Cause when Toriyama pumps multipliers or moon statements nobody bats an eye.
But when he gives a speed for his own characters then it's a problem.

Multipliers are backed by hard feats though? We have disregarded multipliers unless proven because ay lmao. Super Saiyan was proven accurate in the Frieza saga as > 2x Kaioken x20, so we used it. SSJ2 being a 2x increase from SSJ was disregarded because it didn't make sense if it could 180 a stomp

Moon statements? We literally see Piccolo and Roshi blow up the moon, we see Frieza blow up planets, we see Goku punch the universe.
The only time a statement has been used for AP is with Super Perfect Cell, even then that was a direct statement FROM THE MANGA, backed up by several sources, and the powerscaling increase from Large Star level

You cannot calculate something with a stated speed unless it's so inconsistent like circling the world at mach 7.
This isn't inconsistent, and it's barely different. It's just not the result you want. Completely different than 3 mt = 3b joules.

Or if the Author was wrong and doesn't know how physics work.
It's inconsistent because the manga puts the feat at Mach 20, whereas the guidebook states it to be Mach 8

I'd be fine with this if we had another calculation that put Tao Pai Pai at Mach 8, but we are entirely relying on the databooks that had only indirect influence from Toriyama

 

[Nullflowerblush]

What the **** even is that calculation, exactly. Let's talk about that.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

What the ***** even is that calculation, exactly. Let's talk about that.

You want to try remaking it?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

I don't know what the hell it even is.

 

[omegabronic]

i Agree, and as @Emerald said:

Heck it barely contradicts anything. Tao Pai Pai stated that theres a distance of 2300 km between RR HQ and Korin Tower, and that it would take him 30 minutes to complete his task and come back.
Considering the pillar moves at 10.000 km/h, it would take 13 minutes and 48 second to reach the tower, and to get back it would be another 13:48 minutes. So in the end it would be 27 min 36 seconds. Meaning it would take him 2 min 24 sec to kill Goku, which still doesn't contradict what is shown since he "killed" Goku really really fast

if the scene works even without the calculation and works perfectly with the stated speed......then why argue against the stated speed at all?

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

I don’t see a reason to take a fan calc over an explicit speed statement which is still within reasonable range of the feat.

 

[Jason_Courne]

What the ***** even is that calculation, exactly. Let's talk about that.

It utilizes the inverse formula for the range of a projectile to calculate speed, since we know the range of the projectile and angle of launch we can calculate the speed from it

• Range = (Initial velocity*sin*2*angle in deg)/(gravitational acceleration)
• Initial velocity = (Range*gravitational acceleration)/(sin*2*angle in deg)

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Thought about the calculation.

If the pillar traveled at Mach 20, Tao Pai Pai'd spend 10 minutes in total traveling to and fro and an entire 20 minutes killing Goku, which is completely inconsistent with his M.O., his confidence in his ability, and what happened in the story.

Traveling at Mach 8, Tao Pai Pai'd take 26 minutes to and fro and 4 minutes killing Goku.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

It utilizes the inverse formula for the range of a projectile to calculate speed, since we know the range of the projectile and angle of launch we can calculate the speed from it

• Range = (Initial velocity*sin*2*angle in deg)/(gravitational acceleration)
• Initial velocity = (Range*gravitational acceleration)/(sin*2*angle in deg)

So basically the speed can't be anything lower than mach 20? If so then I don't agree with changing it.

 

[KingTempest]

..?????

 

[Emerald]

Bruh what