About Toei Saiyans' Space Survival

[SamanPatou]

All the saiyans from the Toei continuity currently have Self-Sustenance for their supposed ability to survive in outer space indefinitely. However, I believe this to not be really true.
Right now the evidences supporting this are Bardock fighting in space/upper atmosphere, Vegeta and Nappa staying in outer space when annihilating planet Arlia and Paragus reaching Broly in what looks like space (point me any other instances if I'm missing them) and the latter somehow surviving the travel between his first movie's planet and Earth.

My major problem with this is that it doesn't align with what is told and narrated in the Frieza saga. As we all know, Frieza decides to blow up Namek in order to take out Goku, as unlike him saiyans can't survive in outer space. I can't find instances of og english Z dub ouright stating that, but in the Kai dub it is stated clearly and matches the respective scene in the manga.
There might be previous instances of this being stated, but iirc this is the best evidence, if we count out Super. Both the manga chapter and anime episode came out after the Bardock movie and the episode where Vegeta commits genocide, so that should count as either a retcon of a clarification. Still, given the importance of the episode and it matching canon material, it should come first.
I can agree with saiyans being able to resist for some time in outer space, but it shouldn't be given for granted that they can do that indefinitely. I couldn't find the japanese dub (with subs) but the scene is clearly meant to match the manga and Frieza's plan is based on that.

Broly is kind of a special case and an anomaly, given his resilience and the time as a baby when he pulled a space travel feat that no other saiyan could do.

My suggestion is to remove Self-Sus to all Toei saiyans and maybe add a note to explain the matter.

 

[Damage3245]

Makes sense to me. I agree.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Well, i disagree with the removal.

For the simple reason that Vegeta can breathe in the vacuum of space, he went from one planet to another.



1:52

 

[SamanPatou]

That doesn't prove he can stay in there forever. In the kai dub Frieza implies that saiyans can survive for a time, but not indefinitely. Together with the note we can put it a stamina feat or something else, but self-sustenace implies complete freedom from any respiratory need.

And to add something more, we have the scene where Frieza attempts to drown Goku and he goes temporarily unconscious, sign that he needs to breath either way. (I couldn't find a better clip of him struggling, but that's pretty evident)

 

[CaveGamist]

I disagree fra plus there's more evidence for the former being true (Toei Sayains surviving in space) the only thing you really provided one somewhat vague statement while there's more proof for otherwise.

 

[SamanPatou]

More than a vague statement, it's a major plot point that outclasses minor showings, and while fillers are indeed within the Toei continuity, I'd say what directly connects to the main canon takes precedence.
And still, as I said, they could very well survive for a time, yet not indefinitely, which is the requirement for self-sustenance.

 

[Qawsedf234]

And still, as I said, they could very well survive for a time, yet not indefinitely, which is the requirement for self-sustenance.

Another thing is that Toei characters are given MFTL+ ratings for inter-stellar/galactic speeds. At that level just holding your breath would be enough to accomplish any space showings.

 

[ChoursDropoff]

I also disagree Bardock has fought in the vacuum of space as well.



It’s very consistent for saiyans in the anime to breathe in space but not in the manga. “Which is a different continuity with its own rules” Gogeta and Broly were even going to initially fight on the Sun making it more consistent.

Case in point


At worse it’s a diffference in continuity/retcon

At best it would still qualify for limited self substance considering saiyans don’t just instantly die in space.

 

[Qawsedf234]

At best it would still qualify for limited self substance considering saiyans don’t just instantly die in space.

Not dying in space is just a durability thing. Self-substance is not requiring something to live. You can't have a limited version of it really.

 

[SamanPatou]

The Frieza statement happens in the anime dub as well and the whole point of destroying Namek is that Frieza can survive while Goku can't.

Limited self sustenance isn't a thing, you either have or you don't.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

That doesn't prove he can stay in there forever. In the kai dub Frieza implies that saiyans can survive for a time, but not indefinitely. Together with the note we can put it a stamina feat or something else, but self-sustenace implies complete freedom from any respiratory need.

And to add something more, we have the scene where Frieza attempts to drown Goku and he goes temporarily unconscious, sign that he needs to breath either way. (I couldn't find a better clip of him struggling, but that's pretty evident)

I strongly disagree with this, Saiyans can die in a matter of seconds in the vacuum of space, he wasn't holding any oxygen there and we can see that, that counts for me as, i think there will have to be better arguments than that.

 

[SamanPatou]

I must add, we do have Space Survival as an ability that covers the infinite issues and gray areas of how irrealistically space works in fiction, so maybe we can give them Limited Space Survival instead of Self Sus

 

[SamanPatou]

I strongly disagree with this, Saiyans can die in a matter of seconds in the vacuum of space, he wasn't holding any oxygen there and we can see that, that counts for me as, i think there will have to be better arguments than that.

I honestly can't tell if you refer to the drowning scene or something else.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I honestly can't tell if you refer to the drowning scene or something else.

I'm talking about Vegeta crossing space to get to another planet, where he clearly wasn't holding on to oxygen or anything similar.

 

[ChoursDropoff]

The Frieza statement happens in the anime dub as well and the whole point of destroying Namek is that Frieza can survive while Goku can't.

The dub z does the scene even exist in sub?

Limited self sustenance isn't a thing, you either have or you don't.

It would be enhanced lung capacity like the vulturimes from invincible aka body control.

 

[RedReaper]

I believe Space Survivability should be the answer, yeah. We have too many instances of them breathing, flying/floating, or traveling in space without dying to say that the Toei Saiyans don’t play by different rules. But it’s obviously in contradiction of the moments they’re adapting from Namek, similar to the inconsistency between the variations of Instant Transmission (Broly the LSSJ and Cooler’s Return Vs Standard Adaptation of IT.)

 

[SamanPatou]

I'm talking about Vegeta crossing space to get to another planet, where he clearly wasn't holding on to oxygen or anything similar.

Realistically, it's completely pointless to hold breath in space either way, it's just fiction logic.
Like, characters in DB can also talk and hear sounds in space, while realistically it shouldn't happen, it's just fiction and them not holding breath isn't proof of anything.

The dub z does the scene even exist in sub?

I don't know of any streaming platform where to check realiable subs, I've only found the Kai scene.

It would be enhanced lung capacity like the vulturimes from invincible aka body control.

That could work too.

 

[SamanPatou]

There's also that scene when Kid Goku is training with Popo and tires faster due to the thin air at the lookout, it's both in the manga and the anime, but I can't find the clip in english rn.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Realistically, it's completely pointless to hold breath in space either way, it's just fiction logic.
Like, characters in DB can also talk and hear sounds in space, while realistically it shouldn't happen, it's just fiction and them not holding breath isn't proof of anything.

I'm not mentioning that Vegeta can hold his breath, but that he can survive in the vacuum of space even without oxygen and for minutes, that's what happened when he went from one planet to another.

There are several other pieces of evidence pointing to the fact that the toei can breathe even in the vacuum of space.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

There's also that scene when Kid Goku is training with Popo and tires faster due to the thin air at the lookout, it's both in the manga and the anime, but I can't find the clip in english rn.

Oh sure, there's also that scene where Goku goes to the moon in a matter of seconds.

 

[SamanPatou]

I'm not mentioning that Vegeta can hold his breath, but that he can survive in the vacuum of space even without oxygen and for minutes, that's what happened when he went from one planet to another.
There are several other pieces of evidence pointing to the fact that the toei can breathe even in the vacuum of space.

I agree that he can survive for a time, I don't agree with him doing it forever.

Oh sure, there's also that scene where Goku goes to the moon in a matter of seconds.

That's a gag scene from early DB widely accepted as not valid even in the manga, it even contradicts the maximum length of the power pole.
Goku's training with Popo is an important part of the plot when DB was already more plot oriented, a whole different thing.

Either way you put it, saiyans have been shown to having the need to breath, even though they have superhuman resistance and survivability.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I agree that he can survive for a time, I don't agree with him doing it forever.


That's a gag scene from early DB widely accepted as not valid even in the manga, it even contradicts the maximum length of the power pole.
Goku's training with Popo is an important part of the plot when DB was already more plot oriented, a whole different thing.

Either way you put it, saiyans have been shown to having the need to breath, even though they have superhuman resistance and survivability.

So just put limited instead of removing completely, since they can, but I don't completely agree with removing that.


I don't think it was a gag scene, because the rabbit is still on the moon, even after Dragon Ball manga and in super we can see that, so the argument here is not very attractive, anyway Goku went to the moon to leave the rabbit and it is shown even in super, if it was a simple gag it would have been retconned and it would not have happened.

 

[Chariot190]

They very explicitly hard confirmed can not survive in a vacuum even in Toei, this is stated quite a few times (Goku also very blatantly can be drowned, a few times, so there's that).

They very blatantly have scenes of them in a vacumless environment multiple times, this is also true.

The latter doesn't conflict with the former though, simply being in space doesn't mean they can survive indefinitely there in the same way you being underwater doesnt mean you can survive indefinitely there, shit's probably like Viltrumites tbh, they still need oxygen, they can just survive for awhile without it/and/or hold their breath for awhile (Goku/Saiyans has enhanced lung capacity, even as far back as early DB, so **** probably)
Hell, technically anyone here can, like you don't drop dead instantly upon not being able to take a breathe. Saiyans evidently can just go longer without it, doesn't mean they can indefinitely or self sustain.

I agree with removal of self-sus, but obviously retain and make notes of the space feats and that they can survive in space for awhile, even if not forever.

So just put limited instead of removing completely, since they can, but I don't completely agree with removing that.

Self-Sustenance, as the name implies, involves self sustaining, they don't do that, even briefly, they can simply just go without for awhile, why list it as limited? By that logic a normal person surviving like 15 seconds in space would be "limited" simply because it wasnt instant.

 

[SamanPatou]

As I proposed earlier in this thread, we can remove Self Sustenance and replace it with Limited Space Survival or Body Control-Viltrumite style.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

As I proposed earlier in this thread, we can remove Self Sustenance and replace it with Limited Space Survival or Body Control-Viltrumite style.

I think this should work, as long as we don't touch Broly who can breathe through his own energy.

 

[Damage3245]

I don't think it was a gag scene, because the rabbit is still on the moon, even after Dragon Ball manga and in super we can see that, so the argument here is not very attractive, anyway Goku went to the moon to leave the rabbit and it is shown even in super, if it was a simple gag it would have been retconned and it would not have happened.

I don't see how that's not just a reference / callback to the gag.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I don't see how that's not just a reference / callback to the gag.

A fighting anime, bro, although there are times when this could happen, but that wasn't the case, Goku really took him to the moon and even the super confirms this.

 

[Chariot190]

I mean does it matter? He went to space, this does not give him self sus, merely space survivability or enhanced lung capacity (of which DB Goku demonstrates). The fact this applies to the manga in where Goku 100% needs oxygen, is damning too.

He was only in space for less than a few minutes too honestly probably a power pole speed feat here , not exactly long enough to use as evidence for prolonged vacuum survival.

 

[RedReaper]

I mean does it matter? He went to space, this does not give him self sus, merely space survivability or enhanced lung capacity (of which DB Goku demonstrates). The fact this applies to the manga in where Goku 100% needs oxygen, is damning too.

I agree it’s space survivability, but we very clearly see them breathing without oxygen. Kid Goku (gag), Saiyan Saga Vegeta and Nappa, Android Saga Vegeta, Z Bardock, DBS Goku, Broly and Paragus, etc. It’s also never implied this is temporary for them in those scenes. Like, Vegeta’s flying planet to planet Kryptonian style and then flies back into space laughing about how he’ll become a Super Saiyan. Vegeta and Nappa are just sitting there. Just generally speaking, it’s very evident that they are perfectly fine.

Their inability doesn’t exist until the plot desires it to be so on Namek and Moro.

That is to say that it’s very clearly born of inconsistency, not of any incorrect evidence, so I don’t think it’s fully fair to write off the debate—Even if, again, I do agree that it should be changed.

 

[Chariot190]

I agree it’s space survivability, but we very clearly see them breathing without oxygen. Kid Goku (gag), Saiyan Saga Vegeta and Nappa, Android Saga Vegeta, Z Bardock, DBS Goku, Broly and Paragus, etc. It’s also never implied this is temporary for them in those scenes. Like, Vegeta’s flying planet to planet Kryptonian style and then flies back into space laughing about how he’ll become a Super Saiyan. Vegeta and Nappa are just sitting there. Just generally speaking, it’s very evident that they are perfectly fine.

Their inability doesn’t exist until the plot desires it to be so on Namek and Moro.

That is to say that it’s very clearly born of inconsistency, not of any incorrect evidence, so I don’t think it’s fully fair to write off the debate—Even if, again, I do agree that it should be changed.

You need to prove they're capable of doing so indefinitely, we have numerous showings where lack of oxygen can ultimately be fatal both in space, and hell even just drowning.
Merely speaking in space isnt sufficient proof, nobody is saying they cant endure for awhile just fine, they can due to the aforementioned feats, but to have self-sus it cant be just a few minutes, or hell even a few weeks, it needs to be permanently. Which they can not do.

And I get grabbing examples, but it goes both ways. There's Toei filler where Goku demonstrably cant survive in space forever, such as on his trip to namek where he makes use of a spacesuit for that very reason.

 

[Qawsedf234]

As I proposed earlier in this thread, we can remove Self Sustenance and replace it with Limited Space Survival or Body Control-Viltrumite style.

I'm fine with this change

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

As I proposed earlier in this thread, we can remove Self Sustenance and replace it with Limited Space Survival or Body Control-Viltrumite style.

I think this makes the most sense.

 

[Nierre]

Limited Space Survival FRA

 

[Killerdrone123]

Limited space survival seems fine

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Agree with Limited Space Survival.