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To be canon or not to be that is the question.A Dragon ball Super revision

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KaizerCone said:
How are we going to reconcile the Hell that appears in Z and in Super since the whole Otherworld stuff still happened there or do we just ignore it? This is assuming Kai being Canon does get accepted of course.
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Did the scene with freeza and all other vilains seeing Goku fight Kid Buu still happened?
 
Omegabronic said:
Did the scene with freeza and all other vilains seeing Goku fight Kid Buu still happened?
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it did, although it can be considered a retcon. only the scene, not Hell itself because in DBS, there's layers of Hell that do look similar to what we've seen throughout the Z Anime (and the frozen Hell/Cocytus from GT even)
 
KaizerCone said:
How are we going to reconcile the Hell that appears in Z and in Super since the whole Otherworld stuff still happened there or do we just ignore it? This is assuming Kai being Canon does get accepted of course.
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there's no reason to believe Hell itself doesn't exist. the one we see Frieza in is merely "earth's Hell", and the very reason he was put there was because normal Hell would've been too good for him. another thing to keep in mind, as I said, is that DBS still shows multiple layers of Hell with spiky hills and bloody rivers, which do bear a resemblance to the Hell we saw in the Z anime.
 
Ryzen7900X said:
it did, although it can be considered a retcon. only the scene, not Hell itself because in DBS, there's layers of Hell that do look similar to what we've seen throughout the Z Anime (and the frozen Hell/Cocytus from GT even)
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Huh, pretty sure that Freeza not being in a cocoon and all other Vilains not also being there is a contradiction as well, pretty sure that ia defined everytime Hell is shown......altho i dunno the differences in the scenes of the Kai version vs the Toei version
 
Ryzen7900X said:
there's no reason to believe Hell itself doesn't exist. the one we see Frieza in is merely "earth's Hell", and the very reason he was put there was because normal Hell would've been too good for him. another thing to keep in mind, as I said, is that DBS still shows multiple layers of Hell with spiky hills and bloody rivers, which do bear a resemblance to the Hell we saw in the Z anime.
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Iirc it was "his" hell, as in, his personal one that he is in since he refused to repent for his sins

@DivineAura44 :I thought the plan was that you impatient mfs wait for DDM to respond? We dropped that or you guys got itchy fingers?
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Oh.....didn't knew that, ok then, sorry
 
Ryzen7900X said:
there's no reason to believe Hell itself doesn't exist. the one we see Frieza in is merely "earth's Hell", and the very reason he was put there was because normal Hell would've been too good for him. another thing to keep in mind, as I said, is that DBS still shows multiple layers of Hell with spiky hills and bloody rivers, which do bear a resemblance to the Hell we saw in the Z anime.
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Where are the multiple layers of Hell shown? I just rewatched the episode where Goku recruits Frieza and none of that is displayed to us. Is it earlier like in the RoF arc by any chance?
 
Omegabronic said:
Huh, pretty sure that Freeza not being in a cocoon and all other Vilains not also being there is a contradiction as well, pretty sure that ia defined everytime Hell is shown......altho i dunno the differences in the scenes of the Kai version vs the Toei version
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that's the retcon, but only the scene itself, not Hell as a whole since both from the RoF movie and DBS, we see a structure that looks very much like it still exists.
 
KaizerCone said:
Where are the multiple layers of Hell shown? I just rewatched the episode where Goku recruits Frieza and none of that is displayed to us. Is it earlier like in the RoF arc by any chance?
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yeah its in RoF and in the movie as well. you'll see the bloody river and spiky mountainous structure, and a frozen Hell like what we saw in GT
 
Well this would be the third and final vote since it has been more than 48 hours the thread is accepted so this can be closed a note would be added to the verse page that Kai is canon to dbs anime as accepted in this thread

The changes and scaling would be handled in separate thread

Thank you to all the members and staff who participated in the thread
 
Killerdrone123 said:
The thing about bardock is that the movie retconned both manga and anime since we can see bardock in his og armor when frieza gets a flashback of him



Not to mention even toriyama considered the bardock special canon to manga and he says that he has given space to it



So yes broly just retconned both manga and anime
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Actually, my arguments were a lot deeper than that. It wasn't as simple as that, for the Bardock retcon. I know full well that the OG TV special was implied to be the canonical backstory regardless of Dragon Ball timeline at the time; which was later retconned for the primary canon specifically as of DBS Broly. But that's not where my concerns end.

What happened in the backstory of the DBZ Anime is literally all over the place. As in, it's literally in our faces throughout the Anime what the Saiyan race was like and nearly every character who talks about the Saiyan origin. Such as the Saiyan-Tuffle War; the Toei Anime had that be quite blunt about how the Saiyan race was. Where they were just pure barbaric races who lived for nothing but fighting but incapable of building space ships or establishing civilization. Which in turn paved the way for the Machine Mutants from Dragon Ball GT. And if I remember correctly, Dragon Ball Z Kai also repeated the same basic description for the Saiyans and both the first episode's prologue and in King Kai's story. Bardock's reaction is still the same as it was in the TV special; where he perceived his visions of Goku's ferociousness as "Nightmares" until his final one depicting Goku confronting Frieza. And King Kai's origin story he told Goku of the Saiyans still implies it's the same thing as what happened in the Saiyan Tuffle War; such as them being Space Pirates working alongside another race for currency and technology that Saiyans themselves were incapable of. I know Raditz' story basically describes Saiyans that way. And in the original manga, there was no Tuffle Race, and full details about saiyans besides them being called "Warrior Race" or the destruction of planet Vegeta were never mentioned. And Raditz telling Goku that "His orders to wipe out all humans" was nowadays something assumed by Raditz, Vegeta, and Frieza rather than what his actual orders were. But of course, the TV special had it where he was sent there without Bardock's consent with those orders specifically from Vegeta and/or Frieza.

The DBS Movie did more than just retcon the TV Special from the primary canon, but also outright contradicts everything ever said about the purpose of Sayians in both Toei Anime, which was also more or less paralleled in Kai. But the original manga didn't really have any of those details that needed retconning in the first place. Bardock was mentioned in the manga, but there was never showings on what he was like or character dynamic. And Saiyans were warriors, but never implied "All of them were brawns over brains barbarians;" Toei Anime for sure did, and Kai also did iirc.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Actually, my arguments were a lot deeper than that. It wasn't as simple as that, for the Bardock retcon. I know full well that the OG TV special was implied to be the canonical backstory regardless of Dragon Ball timeline at the time; which was later retconned for the primary canon specifically as of DBS Broly. But that's not where my concerns end.

What happened in the backstory of the DBZ Anime is literally all over the place. As in, it's literally in our faces throughout the Anime what the Saiyan race was like and nearly every character who talks about the Saiyan origin. Such as the Saiyan-Tuffle War; the Toei Anime had that be quite blunt about how the Saiyan race was. Where they were just pure barbaric races who lived for nothing but fighting but incapable of building space ships or establishing civilization. Which in turn paved the way for the Machine Mutants from Dragon Ball GT. And if I remember correctly, Dragon Ball Z Kai also repeated the same basic description for the Saiyans and both the first episode's prologue and in King Kai's story. Bardock's reaction is still the same as it was in the TV special; where he perceived his visions of Goku's ferociousness as "Nightmares" until his final one depicting Goku confronting Frieza. And King Kai's origin story he told Goku of the Saiyans still implies it's the same thing as what happened in the Saiyan Tuffle War; such as them being Space Pirates working alongside another race for currency and technology that Saiyans themselves were incapable of. I know Raditz' story basically describes Saiyans that way. And in the original manga, there was no Tuffle Race, and full details about saiyans besides them being called "Warrior Race" or the destruction of planet Vegeta were never mentioned. And Raditz telling Goku that "His orders to wipe out all humans" was nowadays something assumed by Raditz, Vegeta, and Frieza rather than what his actual orders were. But of course, the TV special had it where he was sent there without Bardock's consent with those orders specifically from Vegeta and/or Frieza.

The DBS Movie did more than just retcon the TV Special from the primary canon, but also outright contradicts everything ever said about the purpose of Sayians in both Toei Anime, which was also more or less paralleled in Kai. But the original manga didn't really have any of those details that needed retconning in the first place. Bardock was mentioned in the manga, but there was never showings on what he was like or character dynamic. And Saiyans were warriors, but never implied "All of them were brawns over brains barbarians;" Toei Anime for sure did, and Kai also did iirc.
Click to expand...
Well this backstory isn't actually in kai by the way, we only have raditz and vegeta's statement, which even then still holds true even in modern DB. Where saiyans were sent away as children after their battle power was test, to conquer worlds and wipe out the civilians. But the difference now is that they enslaved by frieza. Toriyama clearly changed the story also, first it was that saiyans and the tuffles always lived on planet vegeta, but this is no longer the case right now since we know that the saiyans had a conflict on sadala, and then moved onto another planet, which was planet plant I think, and took over that one. Cold enslaved the frieza force before age 731, maybe before vegeta and goku we're even born that is. We don't know if the saiyans buy and sell planets because of frieza's rule, or if they did that even before cold was there. Fact of the matter is that both the manga and the anime, things get changed because of the existence of dbs broly and minus, it doesn't change kai being canon to the dbs anime. Since the back story wasn't included in kai, even if it was, it would've been something changed by toryiama anyway. Simply, the saiyans could have did the same thing as frieza even before enslavement, but frieza wanted his empire to be the biggest obviously, so he took over the saiyans and made them do it for him. Its here or there, but the result is the same. Your concerns just seem to be your problems with dbs broly and what that means for the saiyans rather than the actual canonicity being wrong. When vegeta mentions they took over another planet when they left planet sadala, its speculated he meant planet plant potentially, and then renamed to planet vegeta.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Actually, my arguments were a lot deeper than that. It wasn't as simple as that, for the Bardock retcon. I know full well that the OG TV special was implied to be the canonical backstory regardless of Dragon Ball timeline at the time; which was later retconned for the primary canon specifically as of DBS Broly. But that's not where my concerns end.

What happened in the backstory of the DBZ Anime is literally all over the place. As in, it's literally in our faces throughout the Anime what the Saiyan race was like and nearly every character who talks about the Saiyan origin. Such as the Saiyan-Tuffle War; the Toei Anime had that be quite blunt about how the Saiyan race was. Where they were just pure barbaric races who lived for nothing but fighting but incapable of building space ships or establishing civilization. Which in turn paved the way for the Machine Mutants from Dragon Ball GT. And if I remember correctly, Dragon Ball Z Kai also repeated the same basic description for the Saiyans and both the first episode's prologue and in King Kai's story. Bardock's reaction is still the same as it was in the TV special; where he perceived his visions of Goku's ferociousness as "Nightmares" until his final one depicting Goku confronting Frieza. And King Kai's origin story he told Goku of the Saiyans still implies it's the same thing as what happened in the Saiyan Tuffle War; such as them being Space Pirates working alongside another race for currency and technology that Saiyans themselves were incapable of. I know Raditz' story basically describes Saiyans that way. And in the original manga, there was no Tuffle Race, and full details about saiyans besides them being called "Warrior Race" or the destruction of planet Vegeta were never mentioned. And Raditz telling Goku that "His orders to wipe out all humans" was nowadays something assumed by Raditz, Vegeta, and Frieza rather than what his actual orders were. But of course, the TV special had it where he was sent there without Bardock's consent with those orders specifically from Vegeta and/or Frieza.

The DBS Movie did more than just retcon the TV Special from the primary canon, but also outright contradicts everything ever said about the purpose of Sayians in both Toei Anime, which was also more or less paralleled in Kai. But the original manga didn't really have any of those details that needed retconning in the first place. Bardock was mentioned in the manga, but there was never showings on what he was like or character dynamic. And Saiyans were warriors, but never implied "All of them were brawns over brains barbarians;" Toei Anime for sure did, and Kai also did iirc.
Click to expand...
It wasn’t merely an implication, the Bardock special is stated to unfold in both the anime and manga. This statement is said in the guides, Toriyama’s words, and referenced against Frieza in the manga. For that reason this can’t really be used as a gotcha point when this applies as much to the manga as it does the anime.

Also, my friend dug through the Kai episodes and didn’t see where the saiyan backstory was. Since it does exist in the DBZ Anime, but it doesn’t seem to exist in Kai.

Kai from what we’ve double checked doesn’t. If you could provide a reference that would be pretty helpful. Since we’ve been trying to find some of your claims in Kai, but we haven’t been able to find them. So if this does exist it would be extremely helpful to provide one.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Actually, my arguments were a lot deeper than that. It wasn't as simple as that, for the Bardock retcon. I know full well that the OG TV special was implied to be the canonical backstory regardless of Dragon Ball timeline at the time; which was later retconned for the primary canon specifically as of DBS Broly. But that's not where my concerns end.

What happened in the backstory of the DBZ Anime is literally all over the place. As in, it's literally in our faces throughout the Anime what the Saiyan race was like and nearly every character who talks about the Saiyan origin. Such as the Saiyan-Tuffle War; the Toei Anime had that be quite blunt about how the Saiyan race was. Where they were just pure barbaric races who lived for nothing but fighting but incapable of building space ships or establishing civilization. Which in turn paved the way for the Machine Mutants from Dragon Ball GT. And if I remember correctly, Dragon Ball Z Kai also repeated the same basic description for the Saiyans and both the first episode's prologue and in King Kai's story. Bardock's reaction is still the same as it was in the TV special; where he perceived his visions of Goku's ferociousness as "Nightmares" until his final one depicting Goku confronting Frieza. And King Kai's origin story he told Goku of the Saiyans still implies it's the same thing as what happened in the Saiyan Tuffle War; such as them being Space Pirates working alongside another race for currency and technology that Saiyans themselves were incapable of. I know Raditz' story basically describes Saiyans that way. And in the original manga, there was no Tuffle Race, and full details about saiyans besides them being called "Warrior Race" or the destruction of planet Vegeta were never mentioned. And Raditz telling Goku that "His orders to wipe out all humans" was nowadays something assumed by Raditz, Vegeta, and Frieza rather than what his actual orders were. But of course, the TV special had it where he was sent there without Bardock's consent with those orders specifically from Vegeta and/or Frieza.

The DBS Movie did more than just retcon the TV Special from the primary canon, but also outright contradicts everything ever said about the purpose of Sayians in both Toei Anime, which was also more or less paralleled in Kai. But the original manga didn't really have any of those details that needed retconning in the first place. Bardock was mentioned in the manga, but there was never showings on what he was like or character dynamic. And Saiyans were warriors, but never implied "All of them were brawns over brains barbarians;" Toei Anime for sure did, and Kai also did iirc.
Click to expand...
Sorry to pin you but do you have more arguments or contentions since the bardock one was already countered and the saiyan backstory doesn't seem to be present in kai

If not can I close this thread since it was accepted
 
Not much more to say related to Bardock; and I double checked and realized Kai doesn't mention anything about Tuffles. But iirc, the parts about Saiyans being pure Barbarians is still implied; in the manga. I know advertisements still advertise Bardock TV special, but none of the in universe characters (In manga) still reference the events to pin point that being "Exactly what happens."

I still have other contentions while not debunks to Kai, are still overall weak reasons. I still think Gregory example is a weak reason to say "Kai is canon." Because while he never appears in the manga, there is no proof he doesn't exist at all period. He is a minor character with no plot relevance through and through, so his appearance is something I say just neither proves nor disproves any sort of canon.

The only thing left would just be WoG. Toriyama and the Dragon Ball staff still said both versions are canon adaptations of the plot outline; with the plot outline being a follow up to the original manga specifically. Early on, the DBS Anime was intended to be the primary canon outright; hence why BoG saga was just an add for the Anime, and there was no manga version of RoF saga. But over the years, times shifted and the manga continued as its own adaptation. And the manga is still on going while the Anime has been on hiatus since 2018 minus the movies; which are again said to be follow ups to the Anime with there being ads in the manga. But probably implied to be canon to both continuities.

I am still uneasy about applying Kai exclusive feats such as Super Perfect Cell needing Piccolo, all three Earthlings, and Vegeta as opposed to just Vegeta to distract him. Or Super Buu having Vice Shout, but I always agreed that cinematic timeframes for feats present in the manga, such as the Moon busting feat in 2 seconds are doable.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Not much more to say related to Bardock; and I double checked and realized Kai doesn't mention anything about Tuffles. But iirc, the parts about Saiyans being pure Barbarians is still implied; in the manga. I know advertisements still advertise Bardock TV special, but none of the in universe characters (In manga) still reference the events to pin point that being "Exactly what happens."

I still have other contentions while not debunks to Kai, are still overall weak reasons. I still think Gregory example is a weak reason to say "Kai is canon." Because while he never appears in the manga, there is no proof he doesn't exist at all period. He is a minor character with no plot relevance through and through, so his appearance is something I say just neither proves nor disproves any sort of canon.

The only thing left would just be WoG. Toriyama and the Dragon Ball staff still said both versions are canon adaptations of the plot outline; with the plot outline being a follow up to the original manga specifically. Early on, the DBS Anime was intended to be the primary canon outright; hence why BoG saga was just an add for the Anime, and there was no manga version of RoF saga. But over the years, times shifted and the manga continued as its own adaptation. And the manga is still on going while the Anime has been on hiatus since 2018 minus the movies; which are again said to be follow ups to the Anime with there being ads in the manga. But probably implied to be canon to both continuities.

I am still uneasy about applying Kai exclusive feats such as Super Perfect Cell needing Piccolo, all three Earthlings, and Vegeta as opposed to just Vegeta to distract him. Or Super Buu having Vice Shout, but I always agreed that cinematic timeframes for feats present in the manga, such as the Moon busting feat in 2 seconds are doable.
Click to expand...
Well the scaling stuff and changes would be handled in another thread with probably good proofs of why they should scale but anyway since ig you have no more further contentions I think this can be closed

Thank you for giving your opinion and time regarding this thread
 
It's probably because those are Toriyama ideas. A lot of the Z filler is stuff Toriyama thought up or made for the Anime to adapt by giving more depth to the already written manga. Whilst the Outside Space and Cell Jumping are unknown, characters like Gregory, and Pikkon, or the the Advent/History of the Tuffles, and things of that nature have been well documented as things Toriyama gave the Staff to use.

So it's a very fine line to walk between what is and isn't canon as a creative, especially since we know that ideas in the Anime can be accepted as canon by Toriyama (Z-Bardock) or were made up by Toriyama for Anime Production can be canon (Tarble, who has been referenced several times in canon, a character that is allegedly an idea Toriyama came up with for the OVA, the cosmology of Dragon Ball’s Macrocosm).

So it's not hard to argue that the choices were made because, as has been noted on Wiki multiple times, the concept of “canon” is extremely flexible in relevance to Dragon Ball. (I mean, just look at the “Super Duper Canon” adaptation that is DBZ: Kakarot. It literally has Towa and Mira in it.)
 
By the way, in case of canonizing this... It's just Kai, Z Kai has some differences, like filler chapters (159 vs 167 total chapters)
 
Sparkive said:
By the way, in case of canonizing this... It's just Kai, Z Kai has some differences, like filler chapters (159 vs 167 total chapters)
Click to expand...
You mean the international differences like the Final Chapters/Buu Arc in the US having more episodes right? I don't see the point in differentiating them unless the Filler affects the canonicity drastically in some way.
 
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