How far into 3-A are the ones for DBS

[Giygas3]

Hmm... Okay. Can anyone send me an English link to the Novel?

"WoG states that Goku is "reaching the level of the Gods" with Vegeta "desperately"

This is heavily stretching it to imply the difference between the two is THAT great.

 

[Peter1129]

Here's the Vegeta vs Broly fight from the light novel.

https://www.narutoforums.org/thread...oly-novel-translations.1158464/#post-59645590

The Goku vs Broly part is in the previous dragon ball discussion thread. Though it's only in Japanese so you're gonna have to translate it yourself. Also the scans aren't in order.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2526569#416

 

[Sptflcrw]

Vegeta is desperately trying to keep up with Goku. How does that imply that Base Goku is stronger than SSG Vegeta? Anyway, none of this is accepted, lol

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Anyway, none of this is accepted, lol

This is the thread for where it's acceptance is being discussed.

 

[Kaltias]

This is a low ball scaling so every other form that doesn't have an accepted multiplier will just be 2x.

We usually don't do that tho.

It's the reason why you don't see PMMM's 5-B being 2^100 times above baseline 5-B

 

[The_Causality]

@Kalt I mean, no need to generalize this case, PMMM and DB have a Similar and different multiplicator stuffs, if this doesn't "work" in PMMM don't mean you can't in DB

 

[Kaltias]

No, what he is saying is "Stomp with no stated multiplier gets lowballed at x2".

It's exactly the same case.

I'm not saying that Kaioken or whatever can't be used, but that example in particular is the exact same scenario and you don't see anyone saying "Let's double this every time someone gets stomped in a scaling chain" for any other verse on the wiki

 

[The_Causality]

It seem that we don't talked to the same thing. But yeah, I guess we can't assume things like that.

On a side note, According to Dark, "Stomp in Verse" is approx a gap of 1,2x idk if this is relevant here

 

[AKM sama]

Stomp in the verse has always been inconsistent so we can't use that either way.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

UIO is accepted as a 40x multiplier as a baseline. Kaio-Ken is xY and Super Saiyan is agreed to be at least 40x. With that in mind if you assume Goku is only baseline in SSB (After the first UIO) then Goku is, at a minimum, 40x Low 2-C in UIO3. Broly would also be, at a minimum, 40x Low 2-C by scaling off Post-ToP SSB Goku.

This is the absolute bare minimum scaling for Low 2-Cs in Dragon Ball and can not be denied. Even if you argue matters like "Stomps are inconsistent" you would still have to accept that the power difference between, say, Merged Zamasu and Jiren is probably at least hundreds of times. Considering a suppressed Jiren could take on SSBE Vegeta and SSBKKX20 Goku at the same (who would both be 20x Low 2-C at a bare minimum) and could take on the full power of UIO3 Goku (who is 40x at bare minimum).

It is, quite literally, impossible to low-ball them any lower than 40x Low 2-C.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

No, what he is saying is "Stomp with no stated multiplier gets lowballed at x2".
It's exactly the same case.

I'm not saying that Kaioken or whatever can't be used, but that example in particular is the exact same scenario and you don't see anyone saying "Let's double this every time someone gets stomped in a scaling chain" for any other verse on the wiki

8 (End of Battle of Gods/Resurrection of Frieza/Universe 6 Tournament Base Goku) x 40 = 320 (Universe 6 Tournament SS1) x 2 = 640 (Universe 6 Tournament SS2) x 2 = 1,280 (Universe 6 Tournament SS3) x 2 = 2,560 (Universe 6 Tournament SSG) x 40 = 102,400 (Universe 6 Tournament SSB) x 10 = 1,024,000 (Universe 6 Tournament SSBKKx10/Future Trunks Saga SSB/Universe Survival Saga Pre-UIS SSG) x 40 = 40,960,000 (Universe Survival Saga Pre-UIS SSB) x 20 = 819,200,000 (Universe Survival Saga Pre-UIS SSBKKx20/Broly Saga Base) x 40 = 32,768,000,000 (Broly Saga SS1)

In this specific variation, where it is the most lowballed and ignores stomps and all that. The only multipliers used here are Kaioken and SSJ 1 which are accepted on this wiki. There are also multipliers for SSJ 2, SS J 3, and SSJ G but those have been lowballed to 2X.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Pretty sure even Kep and Matt have stated that the KK multipliers shouldn't be considered after Freeza, iirc. Though, this one I could be very wrong about that.

Also even Seth would laugh at the numbers being produced right now.

 

[Giygas3]

That doesn't make any sense for how the KK multipliers shouldn't be considered after Freeza. It's not like they magically changed or anything, and they were using it quite a bit in Super.

But yes, these numbers are pretty ridiculous, considering I'm still heavily against scaling Goku's Base in Dragon ball Super Broly, to that of SSBkkx20 Goku.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Pretty sure even Kep and Matt have stated that the KK multipliers shouldn't be considered after Freeza, iirc. Though, this one I could be very wrong about that.

No, I remember them saying that Kaioken was one of the most consistent multipliers when I made a thread for it. I'll try and find it.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Also even Seth would laugh at the numbers being produced right now.

Also, this is just an argument to incredulity. Masada and PMMM have characters that are stupidly high into certain tiers, saying this isn't real because it's a real big number isn't valid.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

There's no such thing as a consistent 20x multiplier.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

But yes, these numbers are pretty ridiculous, considering I'm still heavily against scaling Goku's Base in Dragon ball Super Broly, to that of SSBkkx20 Goku.

Which characters we could apply those numbers too can be discussed as well, the chain could be updated.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

On the topic of Goku and his relation to Vegeta, the idea that base Goku is so above Vegeta is so ridiculous and outside of that narrative that it's not just wank, but it's outright ignorance of the source material.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

@Cal

I found it.

"What even is this thread. Kaioken is one of the most legit speed multipliers in fiction."

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2176536

 

[Giygas3]

@Real Cal Howard SSBKkx20 multiplies his power and speed by 20. That's how it has always worked....

@Dragon I mean... I guess? Need to first established an appropriate amount first.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

And then he should either be one-shot before using it or one shot after using it. There's no middle ground. 20x is heavy.

"But God of High School gets away with it!"

And they shouldn't. Period.

 

[AKM sama]

Can we stop with the whole "kaioken legitimacy" thing. It's been decisively discussed many times and I am getting real tired of it coming up every couple months. Just put the matter to rest.

 

[Giygas3]

No. It has ALWAYS been stated to multiply the amount of power and speed by the given amount, to say it doesn't is purely headcanon. I have no idea what you mean by, "Then he should either be one-shot before using it, or one shot after using it"

I have no idea what God of High School is.

 

[Giygas3]

@AKM Okay then.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

...

No

Why would I stop talking about something that not only I disagree with, but is also calling controversy? Until we make a rule for it, I'll keep on calling a spade a spade.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

On the topic of Goku and his relation to Vegeta, the idea that base Goku is so above Vegeta is so ridiculous and outside of that narrative that it's not just wank, but it's outright ignorance of the source material.

From the different threads arguing it, that seems to be the opposite of that argument.

It's Narrative (Goku = Vegeta ) vs Source Material (Goku > Vegeta)


The argument is mainly that Goku being that much stronger than Vegeta is ridiculous because they are rivals and spar so they should be equal.

The argument for the other side is that Base Goku does better against Broly than Vegeta does in SSG, the novel that's been accepted further shows that, and there's a WoG statement that Vegeta is desperately trying to catch up to Goku.

Plus, I disagree with the narrative being that Goku and Vegeta are equal. With Vegeta's new child, it makes sense for him to slack off in the training department and help raise her.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

@Dragon I mean... I guess? Need to first established an appropriate amount first.

Yes.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

...
No

Why would I stop talking about something that not only I disagree with, but is also calling controversy? Until we make a rule for it, I'll keep on calling a spade a spade.

Can you make a CRT for it so your arguments can be directly made? That way people who don't want to be involved here but still have an opinion on Kaioken itself could speak to you.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

There's no such thing as a consistent 20x multiplier.

But Super Saiyan is accepted and it's accepted multiplier is twice as much as KaiokenX20.

 

[AKM sama]

...
No

Why would I stop talking about something that not only I disagree with, but is also calling controversy? Until we make a rule for it, I'll keep on calling a spade a spade.

Because you brought it up once, and your thread was rejected, and many threads after that, but you keep bringing this up. There are threads I also made and they were rejected, there are things I don't agree with. I don't keep repeating the same things again and again.

And it goes for every other member in this wiki. You don't see others bringing up the same thing again and again and I've seen people getting warnings to drop it if they do.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

You know how many people Goku would have zero problem with if the SSJ multiplier was a consistent 40x? That or he'd be dead in a single hit in base from anyone who can keep up with his SSJ form. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Take Goku vs Kale/Caulifla. Someone would've gotten their shit wrecked in a single hit during that fight.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

You know how many people Goku would have zero problem with if the SSJ multiplier was a consistent 40x? That or he'd be dead in a single hit in base from anyone who can keep up with his SSJ form. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Take Goku vs Kale/Caulifla. Someone would've gotten their shit wrecked in a single hit during that fight.

You should probably make a CRT for that serious of a downgrade. You're asking for both Super Saiyan and Kaioken multipliers to be dropped.

 

[Warren_Valion]

This talk about Kaio-ken is great and all, but it is derailing the thread.

The purpose of this thread is to understand the scaling and the strength of Super's 3-As.

If you have a problem with the scaling in question, then debate it.

If your only argument is that "these numbers are ridiculously high so I don't believe in it", then I'm sorry, I guess? That's not really a valid argument.

Question the logic behind the large numbers, not the large numbers themselves.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

You can do both at once.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Kaioken's a part of the scaling though. Cal disagrees with the accepted multipliers for SSJ and Kaioken which are a prominent part of the scaling chain.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Lmao that's ridiculous.

 

[Sptflcrw]

Why are you trying to apply multipiers to DBS so badly? No matter what multipliers you apply, they will be inconsistant. Why can't we just say Super Saiyan is stronger than Base? Why do we have to get an exact multiplier?

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Why are you trying to apply multipiers to DBS so badly? No matter what multipliers you apply, they will be inconsistant. Why can't we just say Super Saiyan is stronger than Base? Why do we have to get an exact multiplier?

If there's a canon multiplier that's been shown to work that way, that's what we use. That's how it works. If you disagree with DBS multipliers in general, then you should make a thread for it.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I'm nut sure if I honestly understand this. So essentially what I am reading here is that Cal genuinely, honest to god, believes that a hard multiplier ability should be dropped as a result of...'inconsistency'? What is inconsistent about Kaio-Ken? and what about Super Saiyan? I'm honestly curious. Where is this belief stemming from?

 

[Warren_Valion]

Wasn't the whole fight between Goku and Jiren (there first one), where Goku goes through his base form to his Super Saiyan Blue form, and each new form did a greater amount of damage to a suppressed Jiren than the last, prove that each form is consistently shown to be stronger than the last?

How are these multipliers inconsistent in the slightest? They are probably the most consistent multipliers that I've seen in any fictional media, tbh.