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Dragon Ball Z Multipliers Revision [Safe Version]

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Dark649

Dark649

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Since the last thread ended badly, i will try again but without much calc stacking and by being as safe as possible since Kaioken is know to boost ap, dura and speed as said by both Goku and King Kai based on the multiplier [examples includes Goku reaching Nappa, harm Vegeta, scare Ginyu, bruise Frieza with x20 and etc.]:

Ap:

As said here Krillin splitted his attack into six parts [Scattering Bullet], which oneshotted three Saibaman and could have killed another one since was forced to hide, also tried to attack Nappa and Vegeta, since the same thing was applied to Mo-Ri and the Code Geass profiles:

- BoZ Goku = Planet level [70 Zettatons], Vegeta Saga Base Goku = Planet level [280 Zettatons], Vegeta Saga KKx4 Goku = At least Planet level [1.120 Zettatons], Base Ginyu Saga Goku = At least Planet level [1.120 Zettatons].

- First Form Frieza = Dwarf Star level [1.7 Tenatons], Post Zenkai Goku = At least Dwarf Star level [At least 1.7 Tenatons], KKx20 Post Zenkai Goku = Small Star level [34 Tenatons], 100% Frieza = Small Star level [68 Tenatons].

Speed:

- BoZ Goku = Relativistic [0.14c], Vegeta Saga KKx4 Goku = Relativistic+ [0.56c], Ginyu Saga Base Goku = Vegeta Saga KKx4 Goku = Relativistic+ [0.56c], 2nd Form Freeza and Piccolo = Relativistic+ [0.56c], Goku Post Zenkai Kaiokenx10 and KKx20 = FTL [5.6c] and FTL+ [11.2c], 100% Freeza = FTL+ [22.4c].

- If KKx10 Goku statement is considered then Large Planet level [11.200 Zettatons] and FTL [5.6c] Ginyu Saga KKx10 Goku, 1st Form Frieza to Post Zenkai Base Goku FTL [5.6c], KKx10 FTL+ [56c] and MFTL KKx20 [112c], MFTL 100% Frieza [224c].

Note: If the whole thing is disagreed then a discussion rule about not using the KK multipliers for dbz could be made, reminder that other verses got accepted into using multipliers.
 
I'd say it makes more sense Goku to be at least Dwarf Star level rather than just at least 1.7 tenatons.

First Form Frieza is 1.7 Tenatons, Second Form Frieza stomped Vegeta who is around the level of his First Form, Third Form Frieza completely dominated Piccolo who is at least around the level of his Second Form (Piccolo saying he held back the whole time scared Frieza, Piccolo was confident he could take him on, and the latter went to 3rd form after this), suppressed Final Form stomped Vegeta who is superior (or counted so on this wiki), and Goku matched this same suppressed state.

I'm not sure if this is mistranslated, but he also says each form increases his power substantially.

And this isn't even counting that First Form Frieza didn't appear to exert himself at all, and just used a single finger to make this attack.

Not going to comment on the speed and revised 18, 17, Semi-Perfect Cell, etc.
 
I'm perfectly fine with this version. I don't see the problem with using Kaioken multipliers.
 
> Piccolo saying he held back the whole time scared Frieza, Piccolo was confident he could take him on, and the latter went to 3rd form after this

Wasn't it the other way around? I thought 2nd Form Frieza was holding back against Piccolo?

EDIT: I also can't help be curious if maybe the speed getting too high comes about as a result of us overestimating Raditz's speed.
 
Frieza was holding back (well at first anyway), but then Piccolo takes off his weights after Second Form Frieza powers up a second time. They say Piccolo was "holding back", or at least in the version I found on *********** and *********.

I am talking about the manga, the anime was different; he took off his weights, used Nail's strength in the fusion and started to win, at least according to the English Dub.
 
2nd Form Frieza actually used his full power against Piccolo, who was able to fight after he removed his weights. Piccolo was doing so well that the others were sure that he can win, Frieza had also to transform in order to win.
 
Thank you for helping out by creating this thread.

Should we move it to the staff only forum and then highlight it?
 
I agree with most of it.

I just have one question though. When did Goku go kaioken x10 during the Ginyu saga?
 
ByAsura said:
Frieza was holding back (well at first anyway), but then Piccolo takes off his weights after Second Form Frieza powers up a second time. They say Piccolo was "holding back", or at least in the version I found on *********** and *********.

I am talking about the manga, the anime was different; he took off his weights, used Nail's strength in the fusion and started to win, at least according to the English Dub.
Click to expand...
Checked the Viz version and it says the same thing. Piccolo was stronger than Freeza, Freeza powered up, and then Piccolo took off his weighted clothes and powered up.
 
@AKM

The KKx10 is hypothetical. Goku confirms he can do it after his space training, he just never used it himself. Because Ginyu was a dick.
 
If it is hypothetical and we don't know how powerful he would have been if he used it, then how can we scale Piccolo, Freeza and Base Goku post-zenkai to it? That part seems iffy to me.
 
We know the Kaioken is a linear increase. We know that he can a 10x Kaioken. He would be exactly 10x stronger if he used it, since we know what the multipliers and increases are, even hypothetically. If Goku used Kaioken x10 he would be 10x stronger than his base. There's no vagueness there.
 
How do we scale Freeza and Piccolo to KKx10 Goku? Power levels?
 
Amexim said:
No. We know they're both stronger than Goku with KKx10 though.
Click to expand...
Source? That is what I was asking for before.
 
Calaca Vs said:
Freeza needed 50% of his true power to stop KKx20KHH so he's 2x KKx20 and 4x KKx10.
IDK about Piccolo.
Click to expand...
That's okay.

I am just talking about pre-zenkai Goku, before the fight with Freeza.
 
Piccolo was slightly stronger than Bull-form Freeza which is far stronger than 1st form Freeza which is far stronger than Pre-Zenkai Goku w/o KK if that's what you're asking. So yes. Piccolo should scale to Pre-Zenkai Goku.
 
He wants more detail about the KKx10 Ginyu Saga Goku statement from what I can tell.
 
Well I know that we don't use power levels but I think they work to know who's stronger than who.

Freeza stated that his Bull Form grants him a 1million powerunits. Pre Zenkai Goku is 90k power units so a KKx10 would be 900k making him slightly weaker than Freeza. And we know that's how it works because when Ginyu saw the KKx2 Goku's power level was at 180k.

IDK if that's acceptable tho.

As Amexin said before Kaio-what is a linear increase. Powerlevels aren't too reliable but they shown both Piccolo and Freeza fairly stronger than a KKx10 Goku.
 
Calaca is right, also since Kep is back he could see this thread.
 
So that's what the basis is for Nail Piccolo and 2nd Form Frieza's speed. That they should be stronger than Goku because their power level is higher. Guess it works.
 
We either stop using Kaio-ken altogether or accept this.

Goku did directly state that the destructive capacity went up as Kaioken did, so it'd make no sense to discard Kaio-ken from the Attack Potency increases, which automatically means we should not discard it for speed increases either, unless we believe Goku is a liar and doesn't know what he is talking about.

Goku: "Yeah. It's called Kaio-Ken! [ ] You control all the ki in your body…momentarily amplifying it. If you get it right, then your power, speed, destructive force, and defensive force all become many times greater…"
 
Btw, does the Kaioken have enough evidence to be used?

Because as of our current rules, It will take quite a lot of evidence to accept a x1600 multiplier
 
>Btw, does the Kaioken have enough evidence to be used?

Yes through calcing powerlevels, also in universe they explained it multiplies your power. For example Goku says "Kaioken times 3" that's most likely a 3 times increase
 
"However, a good statement alone is not enough to get a high multiplier accepted. The amount of extra evidence one has to provide to get larger multipliers accepted is proportional to the size of the multiplier. For lower multipliers, like things much less than times 100, evidence can take the form of a clear increase in combat strength against priorly equal or superior opponents. For higher multipliers, like times 100 and above, the importance of stronger evidence, such as feats displaying power of a similar magnitude as the value the multiplier points to or the multipliers importance to the plot of the story, and a higher amount of evidence becomes increasingly necessary.

If multiple multipliers are to be stacked, that are used upon each other, the evidence for the end result is equal to the total multiplier applied to the best feat. That means that if, for example, a character has a times 10 multiplier and later on gets another times 50 multiplier, than the evidence necessary to use both multipliers to get a statistic, is like that of a times 500 multiplier, as the best feat would be increased by a factor of 500 in that case."
 
@Kaltias

Umm i don't think the Kaioken reached higher than 20x, 100x if you count Lord Slug. Also stacking multipliers isn't really present unless you count otherworld filler where Goku uses Kaioken ontop of Supersaiyan meaning 50x times 2x, but again that's not canon.

Kaioken was explained in universe to be a multiplication of Strength, Speed, Durability etc. so i don't think there is a problem with it as it has more explanation than the Super Saiyan multiplier which was never stated in universe
 
Calaca Vs said:
Well I know that we don't use power levels but I think they work to know who's stronger than who.
Freeza stated that his Bull Form grants him a 1million powerunits. Pre Zenkai Goku is 90k power units so a KKx10 would be 900k making him slightly weaker than Freeza. And we know that's how it works because when Ginyu saw the KKx2 Goku's power level was at 180k.

IDK if that's acceptable tho.
Click to expand...
I think it should be, powel levels should not be used to find the precise power difference between characters, but we can still used them to have a vague idea of who is stronger than who, like how the have been used Doriki to determinate the power difference between CP9.

If Goku Pre Zenkai even with his Kaioken 10x (80,000) is supposed to be still inferior to his Post Zenkai version (3,000,000) even in Base, then Pre Zenkai 10x Kaioken Goku < Post Zenkai Base Goku.
 
>Stacking multipliers isn't present.

The proposal in the OP is a x1600 increase based on multiplier stacking

And again, bigger multiplier requires a greater evidence. A statement alone won't cut it
 
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