"Here's a better question... do you wanna have bad time?" - Sans Profile Rework!

[TheGreatJedi13]

Doesn’t matter, you cannot go with the box to any other option even if you WANT to. And anyone without 4th Wall Breaking in the similar way would not be able to even attack.

Spoiler: Here’s the sugar on the cream

The very point of the True Pacifist is that Frisk is a genuinely good person, who holds back when it comes to attacking people, as seen with Undyne fake fight, Frisk refusing to offend Amalgametes despite being forced to, or the only button being left against Asriel being SAVE…. However this was rejected anonymously by the members of this wiki. So same logic applies here, unless you want to use double standards.

That's not my problem as I'm not among those "Members" you speak of so don't ever try using that argument

Again that is the only actual choice as anything you choose would result in a stalemate and you want to win. That is a more logical and valid explanation than saying Sans powernulled you as it was neither implied nor had any backing context to say that is the case
But what we do have is the context that This is a genocide rune. We know Chara exists. and the plot of the story dictates that you shall kill everyone when possible as you are determined to do this genocide to the point that you will keep retrying on Sans because there is no other option to move forward than kill him as we also have the context of mercy resulting to your death
You didn't go into the genocide route just to snack on some cookies at the most crucial moment, especially with the subtle urging you to go kill everyone and destroy that timeline

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

That's not my problem as I'm not among those "Members" you speak of so don't ever try using that argument

Regardless, it would be an application of double standards.

Again that is the only actual choice as anything you choose would result in a stalemate and you want to win. That is a more logical and valid explanation than saying Sans powernulled you as it was neither implied nor had any backing context to say that is the case

But what we do have is the context that This is a genocide rune. We know Chara exists. and the plot of the story dictates that you shall kill everyone when possible as you are determined to do this genocide to the point that you will keep retrying on Sans because there is no other option to move forward than kill him as we also have the context of mercy resulting to your death

You can indefinitely spare Sans and just dodge attacks if you want. You can spare him when he offers it and die. You can load just before winning the battle. But suddenly you can NOT go to any other button? Heck, no.

You didn't go into the genocide route just to snack on some cookies at the most crucial moment, especially with the subtle urging you to go kill everyone and destroy that timeline

You didn't go to True Pacifist to kill Asriel as well. And again, you can literally LOAD or even ******* RESET after you make Sans tired. Not an excuse.

Show me a real feat of Frisk being able to use Information Analysis, food or sparing during special attack and then we'll talk.

 

[Lou_change]

given the second attack immediately after it seems reasonable

 

[StrymULTRA]

You can indefinitely spare Sans and just dodge attacks if you want. You can spare him when he offers it and die. You can load just before winning the battle. But suddenly you can NOT go to any other button? Heck, no.

Actually this is wrong because you have to spam FIGHT in order for the battle to proceed, as selecting any other option makes it loop on itself.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

then we'll talk.

I'd rather not. Just accept my disagreement and argument and let the evaluator decide which is more logical and reasonable explanation

 

[ShionAH]

Actually this is wrong because you have to spam FIGHT in order for the battle to proceed, as selecting any other option makes it loop on itself.

You can indefinitely spare Sans and just dodge attacks if you want.

 

[StrymULTRA]

You can't progress in the story if you spam that though. It's not like the other cases where instead you abort the route and just go in a Neutral lol.

You two are just giving fluff rn, give an actual argument please.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

You can't progress in the story if you spam that though. It's not like the other cases where instead you abort the route and just go in a Neutral lol.

You two are just giving fluff rn, give an actual argument please.

You can still CHECK him 8273772 times and then start fighting lol

Also, again, you can RESET during Sans’ sleep, so why can’t you go and spare him? The argument against his special attack is an actual downplay

 

[StrymULTRA]

So... when can I apply my profile?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

We're waiting for Shion's friday post, then Ig we see if the staff change their mind or not?

I also want a majority vote on if we should keep the music on sans' profile or not.

 

[StrymULTRA]

We're waiting for Shion's friday post, then Ig we see if the staff change their mind or not?

But today IS friday lol.

I also want a majority vote on if we should keep the music on sans' profile or not.

I'd like 1st to do so with every UT profile before giving the luxury to only Sans.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I'd like 1st to do so with every UT profile before giving the luxury to only Sans.

But if we go and update all the profiles right now, we won’t have much left to add when it's time for their own rework threads!

 

[ShionAH]

Before I make an response to Empathic Manip, was there anything that was decided in that 5 pages? Is Strym still trying to remove it

 

[StrymULTRA]

Before I make an response to Empathic Manip, was there anything that was decided in that 5 pages? Is Strym still trying to remove it

We're deciding to make it basically unusable in threads as we don't have any proof that it'd have any relevant effect on non-evil characters that'd result in them being slowed or crippled.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Before I make an response to Empathic Manip, was there anything that was decided in that 5 pages? Is Strym still trying to remove it

I believe we're planning to list as something along the lines of;

Minor Empathic Manipulation (When against Sans, the opponents will likely feel guilt as if their sins were crawling and weighting on their backs,[1] although the effects on the likes of Frisk or Flowey were minimal due to their personality)

Maybe with an additional note that states;

Note: Due to the fact that in-universe the only characters that Sans fought are evil (those being Flowey and Frisk in the Genocide Route), it's unknown how it would affect other characters in vs threads, and as such it shouldn't be assumed that it has any relevant effect that would result in them being crippled or similar.

 

[ShionAH]

Sans will not fall! Not on this day!



Social Influencing

• Nothing says that Frisk canonically always falls for it (otherwise how would they be able to beat him)

Never said they always fall for it, but since it has unique dialogue it means that in a game where you see all the additions you would be tricked. Also you do know that they can still LOAD right? Its obviously way harder to trick someone a second time with the same trick

• nothing says that they did because they bought Sans' talk no jutsu.

Actually, if you come back and attack Sans after he dunks you. Sans will comment on how you are pissed off because you were tricked, which completely debunks that point. If the Player already didn't care about what Sans will do why would they be that pissed off? They would simply shrug it off since they already never actually believed Sans anyway. Anyways this leaves a huge hole in your argument

woah, you look REALLY pissed off...
heheheh...
did i getcha?
well, if you came back anyway...
i guess that means we never really WERE friends, huh?

Edit: Additionaly Toby Fox basically confirmed that in this scene Frisk actually hugs Sans

"huh? You’re dead? All I was trying to do was give you a hug"

Edit 2: Additionally Papyrus QnA from the Newsletter straight up has Papyrus saying that Sans is great at manipulating people... hmh

• The "loved by everyone in Showdin" clip doesn't say anything on it.

Its the wrong link, but if you kill Papyrus Sans will be gone from Snowdin. Which in return makes most of the NPCs in Snowdin to say that they are feeling down because Sans is gone

• Undyne was never mad at Sans if I recall correctly

She literally stops her chase with Frisk, the one that if she ever caught would mean she could use their soul to free the very race of her beings while also showing herself to be one of the strongest and bravest monsters in the entire kingdom while gaining the respect of Asgore who is her father figure. JUST so she could get angry at Sans

• Every hard boss fight should have SI due to it leaving people pissed at it because of how hard it is according to this logic.

Unlike the other hard bosses Sans literally made Flowey so mad that the mention of Papyrus which is someone linked to Sans is enough to make Flowey suddenly become nervous, thats pretty much how making someone fear you works.

Fear Hax

• Ok so... why is this assumed to be a resistance

Chara/Frisk's Fear Manipulation gets seemingly stronger as the game goes on.

Against Doggo the blind dog (LV 5 or smth)

• H... hey! I can't stop shivering all of a sudden.

Against Flowey the soulless flower (LV 19)

• Why am I... Shaking?
• Hey... <Name>... No hard feelings about back then, right?
• H-Hey, what are you doing!?
• B... back off!!
• I... I've changed my mind about all this.
• This isn't a good idea anymore.
• Y-you should go back, <Name>.
• This place is fine the way it is!
• ...
• S-s-stop making that creepy face!
• This isn't funny!
• You've got a SICK sense of humor!

This is how they scared Flowey, the stakes are obviously way higher. Whats funnier is we also know they used that creepy face on Sans. Yet he just simply insults us, he very much doesn't fear us like Flowey

• ...
• that expression that you're wearing...
• ...
• you're really kind of a freak, huh?

• ---

  
  ...
• that expression that you're wearing...
• ...
• well, i won't grace it with a description.

Inv Negation

• Not only it's not entirely true, as there are items that increase the INV Frames

There is a slight problem here, Frisk does not gain their INV Frames when they use those items. It does make the damage lower but it never actually lets Frisk regain their ability to blink out and in to existence when they are hit.

Look at what Sans attacks and look what happens when others hit you. Difference isnt hard to see really.

Empathic Manipulation

• "although the effects on the likes of Frisk or Flowey were minimal due to their personality"

I actually found out why this is a problem with the stability of the ability. It isn't a passive, it is straight up what KARMA does to a person. According to the wiki and my own experience:

• You felt your sins crawling on your back. [Neutral, 0-10 KR]
• You felt your sins weighing on your neck. [Neutral, 10-20 KR][4]
• KARMA coursing through your veins. [Neutral, 20-30 KR][4]
• Doomed to death of KARMA! [Neutral, 30-40 KR][4]

Which is why Empathic Manipulation instead of being useless it would simply be limited to an affect Sans can do with his KARMA, rather than a passive ability. Which makes much more sense and at worst you could argue Frisk and Flowey can keep fighting due to their Determination.

 

[ShionAH]

Shion is so cool

Shion is so cool

Get rekt

I dropped my arguments.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Lmao. That's all?

Never said they always fall for it, but since it has unique dialogue it means that in a game where you see all the additions you would be tricked. Also you do know that they can still LOAD right? Its obviously way harder to trick someone a second time with the same trick

Ok, this doesn't mean that Frisk genuinely feel for it.

Actually, if you come back and attack Sans after he dunks you. Sans will comment on how you are pissed off because you were tricked, which completely debunks that point. If the Player already didn't care about what Sans will do why would they be that pissed off? They would simply shrug it off since they already never actually believed Sans anyway. Anyways this leaves a huge hole in your argument

Sans was wrong, as he later on admits that at the end of the fight:

• i know your type.
• you're, uh, very determined, aren't you?
• you'll never give up, even if there's, uh...
• absolutely NO benefit to persevering whatsoever.
• if i can make that clear.
• no matter what, you'll just keep going.
• not out of any desire for good or evil...
• but just because you think you can.
• and because you "can"...
• ... you "have to."

This fits everything I said of Flowey, him doing stuff on purpose just to see how it goes. I think that the main theme of the game overrides the assumptions of a single character after all, no?

I can easily tell that Frisk was pissed off because they were hit while they dropped their guard, not expecting Sans to actually pull the mercy kill (given that's usually their thing after all), other than Sans himself also saying that "if they really were friends, Frisk won't come back", knowing that Frisk wasn't exactly sincere there.

Aka your counter is ignoring the overall context of the Genocide Route and hyperfocusing on a specific statement.

Fear Hax

• Ok so... why is this assumed to be a resistance

Chara/Frisk's Fear Manipulation gets seemingly stronger as the game goes on.

Against Doggo the blind dog (LV 5 or smth)

• H... hey! I can't stop shivering all of a sudden.

Against Flowey the soulless flower (LV 19)

• Why am I... Shaking?
• Hey... <Name>... No hard feelings about back then, right?
• H-Hey, what are you doing!?
• B... back off!!
• I... I've changed my mind about all this.
• This isn't a good idea anymore.
• Y-you should go back, <Name>.
• This place is fine the way it is!
• ...
• S-s-stop making that creepy face!
• This isn't funny!
• You've got a SICK sense of humor!

This is how they scared Flowey, the stakes are obviously way higher. Whats funnier is we also know they used that creepy face on Sans. Yet he just simply insults us, he very much doesn't fear us like Flowey

• ...
• that expression that you're wearing...
• ...
• you're really kind of a freak, huh?

• ---

  
  
  ...
• that expression that you're wearing...
• ...
• well, i won't grace it with a description.

On this entire thing, @Eden_Warlock99 already answered:

I do agree that we should probably remove the fear resistance tho
Frisk's fear aura honestly isn't that potent and even those affected by it (Papyrus) can hide that fear pretty well.
We don't give everyone who fought Sukuna/Dio fear resistance lol

Here are the profiles. If everyone who fought them without ******** themselves don't have resistance, Sans shouldn't either, as it'd be a double standards.

Papyrus himself also wasn't exactly that much affected despite him admitting to be scared.

Which is why Empathic Manipulation instead of being useless it would simply be limited to an affect Sans can do with his KARMA, rather than a passive ability. Which makes much more sense and at best you could argue Frisk and Flowey can keep fighting due to their Determination

Assumption: Something you accept as true without question or proof.

This is what you're doing right now, there's literally 0 proof that they could do it because DT, because Sans' emphatic shit has 0 feats of actually affecting someone else in any meaningful way. We removed UT soul hax one-shotting people without resistance right because of this lack of proof, so I don't see why should Sans have this luxury, because right now you're not indexing Sans, you're writing a fanfiction.

I'm a twink femboy uwu :3

Done the same.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Btw Shion, you probably forgot to call these two too:

OP looks mostly good, but about the Invulnerability negation. Looking at Frisk's profile, I am not even sure if that qualifies as invulnerability.

StrymULTRA largely makes sense to me. Neutral on the Teleportation part though.

 

[ShionAH]

Sans was wrong, as he later on admits that at the end of the fight:

How is this even an argument? After we spare Sans we go on to hug him, and when he kills us and we come back. We are visibly extremely pissed off at him, thats what happens when someone yknow...tricks you.

The Skeleton who can accurately tell how many times he has killed us just by looking at us would somehow be wrong about us being pissed off?

I can easily tell that Frisk was pissed off because they were hit while they dropped their guard, not expecting Sans to actually pull the mercy kill

You cannot say that since by your logic they would be just trying all the possibilities, if they didn't care about the outcome they wouldn't be so pissed off.

other than Sans himself also saying that "if they really were friends, Frisk won't come back", knowing that Frisk wasn't exactly sincere there.

That is not what he means there and we both know it, he is saying that resetting would be finally letting it go. But if you come back that means you instead of understanding your mistakes just got angry and came back.

On this entire thing, @Eden_Warlock99 already answered:

That really doesnt answer anything, Sans straight up ignores the "creepy stare" we give to Flowey.

Sans shouldn't either, as it'd be a double standards.

Unlike others when Sans sees our Creepy Face he literally just insults us, while the same Face made Flowey run away and cower away... Thats literally resistance.

This is what you're doing right now, there's literally 0 proof that they could do it because DT

Supernatural Willpower

Supernatural Willpower is the ability to exceed one's own limits through sheer willpower to a degree extremely far beyond real human standards. Although some characters can be considered to have a great will to achieve their goals or give their all in a fight, characters that have a willpower on...

vsbattles.fandom.com

"Characters with this ability may be able to resist enormous amounts of pain, act even when unconscious or well beyond what they should be able to endure, resist possession and mind control"

SW can give resistance to mind/empathic stuff, and we already know Frisk is able to get through all of this battles without giving up due to their DT. Sans literally says the only reason we didn't stop is because of our Willpower.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Gonna interject and say SW needs statements or other explicit proof of resisting things like fear or other hax, without anything like that, it's a fancy paperweight.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Actually, if you come back and attack Sans after he dunks you. Sans will comment on how you are pissed off because you were tricked, which completely debunks that point. If the Player already didn't care about what Sans will do why would they be that pissed off? They would simply shrug it off since they already never actually believed Sans anyway. Anyways this leaves a huge hole in your argument

woah, you look REALLY pissed off...
heheheh...
did i getcha?
well, if you came back anyway...
i guess that means we never really WERE friends, huh?

Frisk could’ve just been pissed cause Sans tricked and killed them. It’s sorta natural to be salty after getting outplayed. Like, they could’ve still just spared him to see what happens, and got frustrated when he pulled a fast one on them, especially since he then makes fun of them in the Game Over screen lol

TTAR is honestly the best IRL example of this, he spared sans, and I quote, "for fun, I know it breaks the genocide route. I just wanted to do it."
And when sans said the pissed off thing, "Cause you tried to kill me!"

 

[StrymULTRA]

The Skeleton who can accurately tell how many times he has killed us just by looking at us would somehow be wrong about us being pissed off?

Pretty much, yes.

You cannot say that since by your logic they would be just trying all the possibilities, if they didn't care about the outcome they wouldn't be so pissed off.

I mean, nothing says they'd enjoy it either. Unpleasant suprise is still a concept, ya know.

Frisk could’ve just been pissed cause Sans tricked and killed them. It’s sorta natural to be salty after getting outplayed. Like, they could’ve still just spared him to see what happens, and got frustrated when he pulled a fast one on them, especially since he then taunts them in the Game Over screen lol

TTAR is honestly the best IRL example of this, he spared sans cause, and I quote, "for fun, I know it breaks the genocide route. I just wanted to do it."
And when sans said the pissed of thing, "Cause you tried to kill me!"

Damn, thank you.

That really doesnt answer anything, Sans straight up ignores the "creepy stare" we give to Flowey.

Unlike others when Sans sees our Creepy Face he literally just insults us, while the same Face made Flowey run away and cower away... Thats literally resistance.

But we don't give that to Sans? Stop writing fanfiction.

"Characters with this ability may be able to resist enormous amounts of pain, act even when unconscious or well beyond what they should be able to endure, resist possession and mind control"

SW can give resistance to mind/empathic stuff, and we already know Frisk is able to get through all of this battles without giving up due to their DT. Sans literally says the only reason we didn't stop is because of our Willpower.

Ok lil bro, prove me it has any effect on characters without it. You can do it if you press your brain enough, it's not that hard, I believe in you!

• Not only it's not entirely true, as there are items that increase the INV Frames

There is a slight problem here, Frisk does not gain their INV Frames when they use those items. It does make the damage lower but it never actually lets Frisk regain their ability to blink out and in to existence when they are hit.

Look at what Sans attacks and look what happens when others hit you. Difference isnt hard to see really.

It still means that they don't negate their INV and that those items do still reduce the damage, you admitted it yourself right now.

Btw Frisk blinking projectiles out of existence does not happen with Asgore either, yet he's not negating their INV. Meaning that if Asgore does not, Sans shouldn't either.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Gonna interject and say SW needs statements or other explicit proof of resisting things like fear or other hax, without anything like that, it's a fancy paperweight.

SW?

 

[DaReaperMan]

SW?

Supernatural Willpower.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Supernatural Willpower.

Aaaah. Well the main thing is Sans' emphatic shit needing proofs of it having an effect of people who don't have neither DT nor being an evil maniac, as that's why they get resistance in the 1st place otherwise.

Inb4 Shion gives me some AU as proof.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Although I have to say KR making Frisk feel like their sins were "weighing on [their] neck." certainly does sound like it did impede them in a way.
Their SOUL not losing speed or whatever is not really indicative of much, since it can still move around just fine when their body was paralyzed (Vs. Asriel).

 

[StrymULTRA]

Although I have to say KR making Frisk feel like their sins were "weighing on [their] neck." certainly does sound like it did impede them in a way.
Their SOUL not losing speed or whatever is not really indicative of much, since it can still move around just fine when their body is paralyzed (Vs. Asriel).

I am pretty sure we accept the Asriel thing as an inconsistency, as it wouldn't make sense for their SOUL to not be immobilized, as the game makes it super clear that it's an abstraction of our body moving (see Undyne or Mettaton).

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Strym makes more sense to me.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

I mean, six souls can move when they gain some consciousness after Frisk asks for help, and they don’t have bodies around them lol
Undyne also completely paralyzes soul, but not body (it is paralyzed to some extent as in “pinned” to one place since we can’t flee), as we can still protect ourselves with her spear, and you need to move hands for that, y’know

 

[StrymULTRA]

"Our Soul is blocked but our body is not", don't you see how dumb this sounds?

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

"Our Soul is blocked but our body is not", don't you see how dumb this sounds?

Body is still not fully paralyzed as we can move the spear
Flowey can move without a soul and six human souls can move without a body
Papyrus and Sans add mass to the soul which flies in the air despite it being clear that body is affected by gravity
Soul flying over Papyrus’ body during the date/hanging out
And Asriel paralysis inducement not working on soul just finishes off

So no, not an inconsistency

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Reading the counterarguments brough by Shion, I unfortunately agree more with Strym here.

 

[ShionAH]

I unfortunately agree more with Strym here.

On everything? How should I put your vote on the OP

 

[StrymULTRA]

On everything? How should I put your vote on the OP

@Maverick_Zero_X also agreed with me after your counters.

 

[ShionAH]

@Maverick_Zero_X also agreed with me after your counters.

Read the fcking op

 

[StrymULTRA]

Read the fcking op

Dummy me, I read Lephyr fsr.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

On everything?

Yes

 

[Agnaa]

Only evaluating the SI stuff since it's particularly simple and goofy.

Social Influencing

• Nothing says that Frisk canonically always falls for it (otherwise how would they be able to beat him)

Never said they always fall for it, but since it has unique dialogue it means that in a game where you see all the additions you would be tricked. Also you do know that they can still LOAD right? Its obviously way harder to trick someone a second time with the same trick

• nothing says that they did because they bought Sans' talk no jutsu.

Actually, if you come back and attack Sans after he dunks you. Sans will comment on how you are pissed off because you were tricked, which completely debunks that point. If the Player already didn't care about what Sans will do why would they be that pissed off? They would simply shrug it off since they already never actually believed Sans anyway. Anyways this leaves a huge hole in your argument

woah, you look REALLY pissed off...
heheheh...
did i getcha?
well, if you came back anyway...
i guess that means we never really WERE friends, huh?

Edit: Additionaly Toby Fox basically confirmed that in this scene Frisk actually hugs Sans

"huh? You’re dead? All I was trying to do was give you a hug"

I don't think the sole explanation for every line of dialogue in a game with a large degree of player choice should be put down to "The other characters manipulated the PC into doing that with their social influencing".

My primary reading of that sparing scene is that, to some degree, the player still has the capacity to see Sans as a friend, and isn't actually just a remorseless killing machine. So an appeal to that can work, just as it can with every other character in the genocide route a run could end at. They don't all have SI, they're just examples of the player's capacity for empathy, which in the ultimately canon form of that route is demonstrated to be absent.

My secondary reading of that sparing scene is that it's the player trying out every option, similar to Flowey.

Edit 2: Additionally Papyrus QnA from the Newsletter straight up has Papyrus saying that Sans is great at manipulating people... hmh

Might work, post it.

• The "loved by everyone in Showdin" clip doesn't say anything on it.

Its the wrong link, but if you kill Papyrus Sans will be gone from Snowdin. Which in return makes most of the NPCs in Snowdin to say that they are feeling down because Sans is gone

Making friends isn't SI.

• Undyne was never mad at Sans if I recall correctly

She literally stops her chase with Frisk, the one that if she ever caught would mean she could use their soul to free the very race of her beings while also showing herself to be one of the strongest and bravest monsters in the entire kingdom while gaining the respect of Asgore who is her father figure. JUST so she could get angry at Sans

I think this has the far simpler answer of "Sans is meant to be guarding from humans, and he just let a human walk by, so Undyne justifiably got upset at him", absolutely nothing to do with SI.

• Every hard boss fight should have SI due to it leaving people pissed at it because of how hard it is according to this logic.

Unlike the other hard bosses Sans literally made Flowey so mad that the mention of Papyrus which is someone linked to Sans is enough to make Flowey suddenly become nervous, thats pretty much how making someone fear you works.

Sans is a lot harder, iirc Flowey mentioned that at one point.

Killing someone so many times that they're scared of you isn't SI.

Nothing provided so far suffices.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Might work, post it.

So, I checked myself the Papyrus' interviews (1 and 2) and the closest thing I found to that is Papyrus making a blatant Smash Bros reference about Sans tricking someone in wearing a costume which resembles him and fighting for him in his place.