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Here we go again: 1-A Ichiban downgrade, the sequel.

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Sorry for going MIA, a certain... personal issue showed up. Anyway, the things I believe are:
1. The Afterlife under no circustance is below Tier 1.
2. I don't mind TLOI being simply 1-A for the reasons detailed by Yuri, but also find DT's argument for Afterlife Akuto being 1-A (which will obviously put her more than infinite levels above him) to be very interesting, so now I'm neutral on that idea.
3. Tweeter statements are a huge no to be used here.
And overall I think DT makes sense.
 
As of now, DontTalkDT's proposal is kinda the minority and lots of point against this proposal haven't been answered.

Also "having created and being above an infinite reality-fiction hierarchy of stories that contain things like higher-dimensional space." is flat-out wrong, as shown and explained in the OP.
 
Okay. @DontTalkDT generally tends to be our most rational and levelheaded staff member though, so I would prefer if he could be more active and explain himself in this thread.
 
I agree with YuriAkuto and his arguments seem very concrete. The sandbox is also very well constructed, as for afterlife i agree that it should not go under tier 1, cannot exactly decide upon what level of it really for now but void body and the law of identity should not be high 1-A and i think its very plausible why.
So i agree with the downgrade.
 
@DontTalkDT

I would appreciate if you could help out more here, as we need you to elaborate regarding your arguments, and tell us what you think are the most reliable tiers.
 
Antvasima said:
@DontTalkDT

I would appreciate if you could help out more here, as we need you to elaborate regarding your arguments, and tell us what you think are the most reliable tiers.
Click to expand...

Sorry, reality hit me. Gonna go through the replies now.
Ogbunabali said:
Stories can have more stuff in them, yeah. But the context in which he was referring to stories in the quote he wasn't talking about them in the hierarchy sense, rather the more literal meaning of the word. For instance like this.
Click to expand...
I don't think "world" in this context should be taken as "spacetime continuum", but as one reality. "World" is a rather vague term that can mean a number of things, after all. Consider that the main reality already had things like an alternate universe affecting it as part of the possibility. Consider that when he actually creates all of those possible worlds talked about here, the influence of extra-universal gods is also part of the possibilities.
The props used naturally extended beyond him.

In other words, even the extra-universal gods became possibilities in the story.
Click to expand...
And some stories sound like they are isekai
Yoshie was reincarnated in a different world and retained her memories of her previous life as a modern person. The other world’s science was at the level of the middle ages, so she did great things with her scientific abilities. This story’s conclusion was not a story, so the test of the possibility ended quickly. This was because he was unable to deny the value of finally affirming the modern.
Click to expand...
So the word "world" in this context should mean a reality.

Ogbunabali said:
This seems to talk about the Law of Identity, not Akuto?

Him having a reality-fiction transcendence over his stories seem kind of contradicted with the fact that he himself is all of those universes.

This seems to imply they're just universes that exist as he himself is the universes.
Click to expand...
It does talk about TLOI, yes, but it demonstrates that if you view a fiction as fiction it is reality-fiction-transcendence. And that's what Sai Akuto does here.

In regard to him being the stories: Consider that he is all those stories, while still maintaining a human shape. So, yes, they are contained in him, but they are not contained in such a physical fashion. They aren't the universe sized physical spaces from his perspective.

Not that it really… matters? I mean, he did create them one way or another, which is the main feat here.

There is also this quote regarding Akuto from before he started creating the stories:
“You live in a fiction yet you hate fiction. You have a natural urge to divulge fictions, so you will do so one after another. You destroyed the system closing us in, but the next system activated. The fiction has multiple layers. It is in an infinite retreat. It’s like a hell that continues on and on forever, so it isn’t an easy thing to deal with.”
Click to expand...
He did in fact already escape one reality fiction level by coming to the afterlife.

Ogbunabali said:
4 dimensional space is Low 2-C.
Click to expand...
Assuming one of it is a time dimension. But I can see your point. I guess one could view them as just another kind of multiverse.

YuriAkuto said:
Didn't understood it that way. Fine with it so far.

Problem here is that it is the goal he has, not what he did. The part you quoted is what he was proposed before doing it.
Click to expand...
No, it's also what he did. The beginning of the chapter with the creation describes how the infinite possibilities burst the limits of the world. He was clearly not creating them one at a time. They were clearly existing simultanously.

Opening up all possibilities may have been a mistake.

The space itself was finite and the characters were finite, but the combinations were infinite. Opening up the possibilities was not just a concept. It actually released the walls of the world that supposedly existed within Akuto.

This was similar to further universes being born within him.

The props used naturally extended beyond him.

In other words, even the extra-universal gods became possibilities in the story.

As a result, all stories fell into chaos.

What is it called when stories fall into chaos?

The answer was included in a certain story from the past: the Tower of Babel.

Until then, it could be said that the story was shared by all. They had all been playing a part in that story and thus the world had not been allowed to interfere with the stories other than Akuto’s.

So what if the people ceased to share the story?

That led to chaos.

The extra-universal gods all contained their own unique stories and were thus the protagonists of those stories. Those multiple protagonists had tried to advance their stories in the same space.

That may have caused a great disturbance, but it was not conflict. After all, the “weak” stories existed there in addition to the “strong” stories that attempted take the lead. The weak yet large ones ran everyday life. The strong yet small ones ran the oddities of life.

The concepts that explained the world’s structure and made people aware of their identity were large, but they had mostly blended into everyday life to the point of not being noticed. The stories of individuals’ lives were carved deeply into people’s hearts, but they naturally went no further than that individual.

Individuals.

It was only now that mankind truly became “individuals”. Even if they could speak to each other, no kind of relationship could be formed if they did not share the same stories. The relationships of friends, enemies, and even strangers could not be established.

When the possibilities were infinite, stories instantly became impossible.

Countless isolated individuals were formed.
Click to expand...

YuriAkuto said:
A multiverse n all is still 4D tho. Also the multiverse is made of stories since every Extra-Universal Gods are one universe. So it isn't just "one story" which was always used to refer to the universe even in journal.
Click to expand...
Technically, a multiverse is 5D, just not to a significant extent. And a story viewed from outside would appear as fiction, while the alternate dimensions, virtual or not, are viewed as reality. Considering how the extra-universal gods were explicitly possibilities in the stories Akuto created the idea of "story=universe in the common sense" doesn't work.

YuriAkuto said:
Dream analogy is only related to TLOI nature tho. Akuto's stories and Universal Gods are all portrayed as regular universes.
Click to expand...
They really are not? Like, I'm really not sure what you mean with "regular" here. From the inside they are like normal worlds, yeah, but that's from the inside. Or do you mean that since the extra-universal gods that Akuto talks to during his conversation with Brave are visible, that they are not stories? If so that isn't aa counter-argument. Umineko similarly has its lesser levels of story appear in higher realms as objects. Doesn't imply that they aren't still lesser levels of reality.

It's like how a story in a book is just a story that is fiction for us, but can still appear in our world as a book.

YuriAkuto said:
"At that point, Akuto ended the story creation.

He had decided it was all meaningless.

The stories were developing, but the ones he created were nothing more than projections of his longing for a ridiculous world where the pleasant things would continue forever."

It didn't said he merely stopped looking, he stopped the creation process as a whole.

So I think the big thing here is that we disagree on what the stories he made qualify as.

And problem is that they never were treated as higher layers like the hierarchy he's trapped in.
Click to expand...
Considering the stories of Akuto and stories of TLOI as fundamentally different things makes no sense. It is never explained as such and completely goes against what the story actually is trying to explore here. He is also never said to fail at what he is attempting or anything of that nature and reasonably knowledgable people believe he is capable of it.

As for the 'ended story creation' part: Considering how it was priorly talking about the chaos of infinite possibilities, opening up all possibilities and different stories interacting, I would interpret this as the stories being erased by him again, more so than just stopping the creation of new ones. Which makes sense, as he afterwards tries to keep the story density low.
Either that or after he found that creating all at once doesn't work, he decided to create them one after another for better control.
 
DontTalkDT said:
No. It's also what he did. The beginning of the chapter with the creation describes how the infinite possibilities burst the limits of the world. He was clearly not creating them one at a time. They were clearly existing simultanously.
Click to expand...
It's talking about the expansion tho, not the infinite stories being brought with a finger snap.
Also it goes against the fact that Akuto has to act in each stories.
DontTalkDT said:
Technicallyly, a multiverse is 5D, just not to a significant extent. And a story viewed from outside would appear as fiction, while the alternate dimensions, virtual or not, are viewed as reality. Considering how the extra-universal gods were explicitly possibilities in the stories Akuto created the idea of "story=universe in the common sense" doesn't work.
Click to expand...
Extra-Universal Gods being possibilities actually work with it tho...? Also your own scans compares it to universes in the multiversal meaning
DontTalkDT said:
They really are not? Like, I'm really not sure what you mean with "regular" here. From the inside they are like normal worlds, yeah, but that's from the inside. Or do you mean that since the extra-universal gods that Akuto talks to during his conversation with Brave are visible, that they are not stories? If so that isn't aa counter-argument. Umineko similarly has its lesser levels of story appear in higher realms as objects. Doesn't imply that they aren't still lesser levels of reality.

It's like how a story in a book is just a story that is fiction for us, but can still appear in our world as a book.
Click to expand...
Umineko is a very bad example here. As lower stuff are supposed to not even exist from higher one perspective and there's a whole process of evolving and adapting.

And I never implied anything regarding this scene? They are flat out called universes by Brave, and their universes were considered parallel universes before the fusion.
DontTalkDT said:
Considering the stories of Akuto and stories of TLOI as fundamentally different things makes no sense. It is never explained as such and completely goes against what the story actually is trying to explore here. He is also never said to fail at what he is attempting or anything of that nature and reasonably knowledgable people believe he is capable of it.
Click to expand...
By this logic Akuto would have reached TLOI's level by doing all the stories, which isn't the case.
TLOI's nature was portrayed as hierarchical, but Akuto stories were always portrayed as parallel universes.
DontTalkDT said:
As for the 'ended story creation' part: Considering how it was priorly talking about the chaos of infinite possibilities, opening up all possibilities and different stories interacting, I would interpret this as the stories being erased by him again, more so than just stopping the creation of new ones. Which makes sense, as he afterwards tries to keep the story density low.
Either that or after he found that creating all at once doesn't work, he decided to create them one after another for better control.
Click to expand...
Nowhere is it mentionned that stories are erased. It just said he abandonned doing them.
Keeping the story density low was for Brave's plan, which came after this and he didn't think of yet.
Creating them one by one is already what he did, as explained by how he actually have to play his role in them.
 
Tho tbf since it's mainly about something rather lacking in term of explanations, I think there's good chances of going into circles, since there's not much to add besides reformulating our points differently each time.
 
So what should be done now? I think that void body and tloi are concluded, but i have not seen the proposed tiers of the other party even though it seems afterlife is currently the most discussed as of now.
 
As I mentioned above, I have a very high trust in DontTalk's general reliability and rational thinking.
 
I think best would be to have more staff opinions, since it'll likely be what would decide the thread here. Will likely make a count of who agree and disagree too.
 
After DontTalk and possibly Ionliosite have elaborated more regarding their interpretations of the cosmology, I will ask more staff members to help us out with evaluating this discussion.
 
I can get more into YuriAkuto's reply, but maybe let me suggest a compromise first, in case that reaches a result faster.
How about we say" Low 1-C (1 fiction level above the multiverse of the main story), likely 1-A (All possible stories Akuto was supposed to create should include the infinite story hierarchies indicated to exist in the verse)" for Akuto and "1-A, likely High 1-A (Transcends an infinite story hierarchy above afterlife Sai Akuto)" for TLOI. The rest scaled accordingly.
Or something along these lines.
 
Well, I would prefer if we take our time here until an accurate result is reached rather than rush things and keep the statistics too vague/uncertain.
 
DontTalkDT said:
I can get more into YuriAkuto's reply, but maybe let me suggest a compromise first, in case that reaches a result faster.
How about we say" Low 1-C (1 fiction level above the multiverse of the main story), likely 1-A (All possible stories Akuto was supposed to create should include the infinite story hierarchies indicated to exist in the verse)" for Akuto and "1-A, likely High 1-A (Transcends an infinite story hierarchy above afterlife Sai Akuto)" for TLOI. The rest scaled accordingly.
Or something along these lines.
Click to expand...
I think I could deal with that.

Maybe I could argue for Low 1-C Akuto only post-expansion, or at least Gods not being tier 1 (given how they are constantly referred as universes n all in litteral way); but it's not like it would break the entire scailing or anything.
 
For DontTalkDT and Ionliosite to elaborate regarding what tiers they think that we should use and why.
 
YuriAkuto said:
Maybe I could argue for Low 1-C Akuto only post-expansion, or at least Gods not being tier 1 (given how they are constantly referred as universes n all in litteral way); but it's not like it would break the entire scailing or anything.
Click to expand...
I mean, which gods? The archetypes exist on afterlife level, which should be 1 level above real multiverse at least. I don't think we should take 'universe' all too literally there. They are also stated to be similar in nature to Akuto IIRC.

The computer gods? Really depends relative to what they get judged, I think. Then again Ionliosite remembers the details on them better than me, I think.

Regarding Akuto I'm gonna say that I never quite understood why we separate pre- and post-possibility release. While the actual big structures are only created at that point, he did in fact have that level of power before he created them already. It's just that only at that point he gets the actual feat proving that power. IMO afterlife Akuto should be a single key.
 
DontTalkDT said:
I mean, which gods? The archetypes exist on afterlife level, which should be 1 level above real multiverse at least. I don't think we should take 'universe' all too literally there. They are also stated to be similar in nature to Akuto IIRC.

The computer gods? Really depends relative to what they get judged, I think. Then again Ionliosite remembers the details on them better than me, I think.

Regarding Akuto I'm gonna say that I never quite understood why we separate pre- and post-possibility release. While the actual big structures are only created at that point, he did in fact have that level of power before he created them already. It's just that only at that point he gets the actual feat proving that power. IMO afterlife Akuto should be a single key.
Click to expand...
They were said to be similar to Pre-Expansion Akuto yeah.

Afterlife was separated in two keys because of being overtime

"But to reconstruct the story possibilities, Akuto needed a period of time bordering on the infinite."

and because it clearly evolved in comparison to its initial state.
 
I mean, the afterlife itself evolved, but I don't think Akuto himself got any more powerful in the process. Like, the power to evolve the afterlife came from him. It was already there, it just hadn't shown itself yet.
Y'know, like for example, Arceus was already Multiversal before the multiverse was created. It's just that it couldn't show that at that point.
 
I don't really think it would be the same here. Like the Afterlife is Akuto and vice-versa.

If Akuto was already as strong as a fully expanded Afterlife, needing infinite time because he had to do all stories one by one wouldn't even exist.

Also the whole narration wasn't treating it as something he always could do. Like how it's a mistake forcing Afterlife to expand, needs way too much time, etc...
 
He just wasn’t going along well in wiki lately and I worried. I hope it is like you said, I wouldn’t want him to leave the wiki
 
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