Here we go again: 1-A Ichiban downgrade, the sequel.

[QuasiYuri]

I continue further I write that they are not out of context, but you decide what is out of context. you claim that your comment is correct and correct, and what I say does not show it. But these are all you need to see what your claims people or staff will say, so I don't want to respond to this discussion any more until the administration joins

I proved they were. By bringing the very context.

It's not about deciding, you litteraly said **** to all proofs and never brought the proof that there's two hierarchy nor how Yoshie magically got an entire new knowledge of the cosmology she would have no way to know between journal and act 13. According to you ofc.

Anyway, it's indeed better to wait for actual structured approval or rebutal.

 

[Rikimarox2]

This thread was a huge pain in the ass to read.


Regardless, after basically having a seizure reading it, Yuri makes much, much more sense here. I agree with him.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I have not read the entire thread, so excuse me if what I say was said already, but I wanna drop a quick argument just to have said something:
Sai Akuto is explicitly stated to create all possible stories, with possible even receiving a fairly strict definition. Even one of those possible stories, namely the story all Volumes before the last one play in, is already an infinite multiverse. So 2-B is clearly not the case. It's 2-A just by looking at what we have seen as stories. In fact, the main universe from Ichiban Ushiro no Daimo has the virtual alternate dimension, which is embedded in a higher-dimensional space of non-insignificant (infinite) size. So by that alone, he is already Tier 1.

Go a step further and look at the hierarchy of stories mentioned regarding TLOI. That proves that stories containing stories are possible. In fact, if that can have an infinite story hierarchy, clearly stories with infinite story hierarchies are possible. Even the main universe is technically one containing lesser levels of stories, given that Soga Kena once BFR'd Junko and Akuto into a story that from that universe was fictional.
So alone by those the afterlife Akuto embodied by creating all infinite possible stories (and yes, the novel say infinite and he created all. He could just not survey them all at the same time) Sai Akuto already transcends a 1-A story hierarchy. And the gap between TLOI and Akuto is still that same infinite hierarchy on top of that.

 

[Ionliosite]

Ok, now I'm free, time to write. Reading the mess above, YuriAkuto is mostly in tune with what Ultima and I already debated, so we both agree with a) The hierarchy of dreams and the hierarchy of fiction should be treated as one and the same and b) Due to being above it, Void Body is 1-A and TLOI scales.

Now, here comes the part I disagree with: the Afterlife being Tier 2. And for a very simple reason, actually. Let me take the quotes:

But what if the world were someone’s dream?
That answer was also simple.
The world was created by the storyteller known as the Law of Identity.
Then what was the world? The world was fiction.
But at the same time, the world was an absolute truth from inside that fiction.
From the outside, it was fiction. From the inside, it was truth.
What if one tried viewing the world as fictional from the outside perspective?
How did the world come to be?
Rejecting all but the Law of Identity would leave yourself facing the one Law of Identity all alone. That would be one origin. It was possible the one having the dream lived in a world that was itself the dream of someone in another world that was again someone else’s dream, but even if that chain continued back infinitely, one specific origin could be found by facing that one Law of Identity.

We know that the world is the bottom of the dream retreat, and that TLOI is the dreamer, which obviously means that there infinite levels of dreams in between.

You live in a fiction yet you hate fiction. You have a natural urge to divulge fictions, so you will do so one after another. You destroyed the system closing us in, but the next system activated. The fiction has multiple layers. It is in an infinite retreat. It’s like a hell that continues on and on forever, so it isn’t an easy thing to deal with.

Here, Yoshie is talking in reference to the events of Act 12: at the end of it, the Formless Power was used to kill all of mankind, and thus they were sent to the Afterlife. She says that freeing people from the world to the Afterlife let to the next system of fiction being activated - due to fiction having infinite layers, as was previously stablished, this puts the Afterlife as the SECOND layer in the infinite retreat.

The virtual alternate dimension was commonly referred to as a 4th dimensional space. Researchers’ understanding of it was as follows: “we don’t know why, but there is an infinitely vast space adjacent to our dimension.” It was thought to be dangerous to remain within it, so it was usually used to temporarily transfer oneself or objects or to trap intruders as a defensive panic room.

The world, the first layer, has the virtual alternate dimensions, which are infinite sized 4th dimensional spaces on it. This, of course, means that the Afterlife would fall into Low 1-C due to being the next level of fiction above it. So yeah, I completely disagree with Afterlife Akuto being anything below Low 1-C.

 

[Ionliosite]

Also, just noticed DT and I posted at the same time, and he has a very interesting explanation.

 

[AKUTO123]

I have not read the entire thread, so excuse me if what I say was said already, but I wanna drop a quick argument just to have said something:
Sai Akuto is explicitly stated to create all possible stories, with possible even receiving a fairly strict definition. Even one of those possible stories, namely the story all Volumes before the last one play in, is already an infinite multiverse. So 2-B is clearly not the case. It's 2-A just by looking at what we have seen as stories. In fact, the main universe from Ichiban Ushiro no Daimo has the virtual alternate dimension, which is embedded in a higher-dimensional space of non-insignificant (infinite) size. So by that alone, he is already Tier 1.

Go a step further and look at the hierarchy of stories mentioned regarding TLOI. That proves that stories containing stories are possible. In fact, if that can have an infinite story hierarchy, clearly stories with infinite story hierarchies are possible. Even the main universe is technically one containing lesser levels of stories, given that Soga Kena once BFR'd Junko and Akuto into a story that from that universe was fictional.
So alone by those the afterlife Akuto embodied by creating all infinite possible stories (and yes, the novel say infinite and he created all. He could just not survey them all at the same time) Sai Akuto already transcends a 1-A story hierarchy. And the gap between TLOI and Akuto is still that same infinite hierarchy on top of that.

I agree

 

[Ned_the_outer_god]

I agree with the downgrade, but the low 1-C definitely seems fine

 

[Lormac_CC]

Came late. First Masada now this

 

[Ned_the_outer_god]

Came late. First Masada now this

3812 is fine with this

 

[Planck69]

After reading through the thread, I agree with the downgrade. Low 1-C Afterlife also seems to make sense to me based on Ionlionsite's post.

 

[Darksmash]

I agree with the downgrade

But I have a confusion. When exactly do we take reality>fiction transcendence to be a 1-A transcendence? Because if the first story contains 4D spaces, can't it be used to argue that the R>F transcendence is bigger in gap than a dimensional one?(due to being qualitatively different)

I am just asking btw.

 

[Planck69]

They're mostly equalized. The main focus is the qualitative superiority. Whether its represented through dimensions, layers, dreams, reality-fiction etc.

 

[Auristela19]

Following.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I have not read the entire thread, so excuse me if what I say was said already, but I wanna drop a quick argument just to have said something:
Sai Akuto is explicitly stated to create all possible stories, with possible even receiving a fairly strict definition. Even one of those possible stories, namely the story all Volumes before the last one play in, is already an infinite multiverse. So 2-B is clearly not the case. It's 2-A just by looking at what we have seen as stories.

You're missing an important plot point here. He was supposed to bring infinite stories, but has shown, he litteraly abandonned the idea.

Go a step further and look at the hierarchy of stories mentioned regarding TLOI. That proves that stories containing stories are possible. In fact, if that can have an infinite story hierarchy, clearly stories with infinite story hierarchies are possible. Even the main universe is technically one containing lesser levels of stories, given that Soga Kena once BFR'd Junko and Akuto into a story that from that universe was fictional.
So alone by those the afterlife Akuto embodied by creating all infinite possible stories (and yes, the novel say infinite and he created all. He could just not survey them all at the same time) Sai Akuto already transcends a 1-A story hierarchy. And the gap between TLOI and Akuto is still that same infinite hierarchy on top of that.

See previous point.

Also both hierarchy statements are only referring to how it is in relation to TLOI herself (arguably, it's more of an image for the difference between the world and her, given the journal hypothetic nature).

Also Afterlife clearly being put at the bottom, and Akuto stories especially being universes without any form of mention about higher layers, assuming he created entire hierarchies because "it is possible" is kind of a huge assumption.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Here, Yoshie is talking in reference to the events of Act 12: at the end of it, the Formless Power was used to kill all of mankind, and thus they were sent to the Afterlife. She says that freeing people from the world to the Afterlife let to the next system of fiction being activated - due to fiction having infinite layers, as was previously stablished, this puts the Afterlife as the SECOND layer in the infinite retreat.

The world, the first layer, has the virtual alternate dimensions, which are infinite sized 4th dimensional spaces on it. This, of course, means that the Afterlife would fall into Low 1-C due to being the next level of fiction above it. So yeah, I completely disagree with Afterlife Akuto being anything below Low 1-C.

Aren't virtual alternate dimensions, well, virtual ?

I also thought about Low 1-C, but some things makes me think 4D Afterlife would make more sense plot-wise:

-Akuto explained how it was a 3D dimensional space but with "no external wall", which is supposed to be the difference with before
-Brave suit being able to enter its coordinate to reach it.
-He's supposed to be like the Extra-Universal Gods, who are outside the universe as their own living one.
-Needing to expand to cover more universes

That said, I think "likely Low 1-C" could work.

 

[Quintessence_PE]

in the form of akuto afterlife transcends all existence and sees verse as fiction

 

[QuasiYuri]

in the form of akuto afterlife transcends all existence and sees verse as fiction

Once again, you have to prove it with arguments.

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

-Akuto explained how it was a 3D dimensional space but with "no external wall", which is supposed to be the difference with before

If afterlife is going to downgrade from 1-A, I agree with what Yuri said about the low 1-C. I don't think it can be low 1-C because in this scan, implying here that it's a 3D space and it's continue forever because it doesn't have an external wall like the world of the living.(It's like an 3D infinite space) Seems much more predisposition to 4D.

 

[Antvasima]

I personally think that @DontTalkDT and @Ionliosite seem to make sense above, but I am not the best person to ask.

@Lawiegg @Matthew_Schroeder

What do you think?

 

[Riuz78]

Following.

 

[Ovy7]

The downgrade seem to make sense from Yuri and Ion's reasoning, but for now I'm impartial when it comes to the tier of the Afterlife.

 

[Quintessence_PE]

We previously thought of the 1a case, but when we asked the author, the author said there was an error in the translations, and in the other questions we asked, we could not see any argument that would downgrade loi and akuto.

 

[Quintessence_PE]

It makes no sense to disregard what the author says.

 

[Quintessence_PE]

Also, the 13th volume is not translated offically so there are errors.

 

[Saiyan40009]

Las cosas que traje muestran que ningún escritor en la jerarquía de los sueños está en el mundo de tloi, es decir, Akuto> realmente muestra la jerarquía de los sueños. En el mundo de tloi solo hay Akuto yro.

 

[Kaizuka_Satomi]

Dafug this ecchi manga I read randomly during middle school days is 1-A? Today I learned.

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

Dafug this ecchi manga I read randomly during middle school days is 1-A? Today I learned.

Originally it's a LN series though

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Dafug this ecchi manga I read randomly during middle school days is 1-A? Today I learned.

you know whats ironic akuto class number is 1-A

 

[Planck69]

Also, the 13th volume is not translated offically so there are errors.

Not an argument. We allow unofficial fan translations here and if there are any obvious errors then feel free to point them out.

 

[Antvasima]

We previously thought of the 1a case, but when we asked the author, the author said there was an error in the translations, and in the other questions we asked, we could not see any argument that would downgrade loi and akuto.

What did the author tell you more elaborately and specifically?

 

[Antvasima]

@SomebodyData @Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Wokistan @MrKingOfNegativity @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Abstractions @Antoniofer @GyroNutz @DarkGrath @The_Wright_Way @Ogbunabali @Everything12 @Duedate8898

Would you be willing to provide some input here please?

 

[Everything12]

Ion and Yuri's argument seem to make more sense to me.

 

[Antvasima]

But Ionliosite and YuriAkuto do not seem to agree with each other.

 

[Ogbunabali]

I don't know the verse, so I'm only going off of the blog post. But it seems pretty good, don't disagree with it, though I will say that time existing in the Afterlife doesn't actually disqualify, or give a point against, it being 1-A. You could theoretically have a tier 0 structure with some kind of version of time in it. But the other points being brought up seemed legit.

 

[Antvasima]

What do you think about DontTalk's and Ionliosite's arguments?

 

[QuasiYuri]

But Ionliosite and YuriAkuto do not seem to agree with each other.

We do agree with each other actually. At least in term of cosmology.

Both of us are ok with 1-A, and the debatable part is "Afterlife should be tier 2 vs Low 1-C", and the consensus wouldn't be hard to reach even on this one.

 

[QuasiYuri]

We previously thought of the 1a case, but when we asked the author, the author said there was an error in the translations, and in the other questions we asked, we could not see any argument that would downgrade loi and akuto.

I saw the recent questions, and even asked one myself; in the same post and it never went against what's proposed.
Also it's pretty obvious that they have trouble with english, so I wouldn't put it over actual feats when it doesn't even go against them.

 

[Ionliosite]

We do agree with each other actually.

No, we don't. Don't put false words into my mouth. I stand by what DontTalkDt said, not your points.

 

[Lormac_CC]

Agree with the 1-A. But I am kind of neutral on the tier 2

 

[Ionliosite]

What did the author tell you more elaborately and specifically?

We shouldn't use anything of those WoG stuff imo, since a lot of what he said there directly contradicts what's shown in the novel, which is forgivable considering he finished this series years ago.