Here we go again: 1-A Ichiban downgrade, the sequel.

[Ionliosite]

Ion and Yuri's argument seem to make more sense to me.

Eh, Yuri and I are arguing AGAINST each other, so we can't be both right.

 

[Ogbunabali]

I hadn't read them when I posted. Reading them now, if true would imply that the previous High 1-A was correct. But as I said I don't know the verse, I'm only basing it from the blog.

Sai Akuto is explicitly stated to create all possible stories, with possible even receiving a fairly strict definition. Even one of those possible stories, namely the story all Volumes before the last one play in, is already an infinite multiverse. So 2-B is clearly not the case. It's 2-A just by looking at what we have seen as stories.

I would agree here, but (from the blog's quotes) first it said that there weren't actually infinite possibilities "In that case, it became clear that near infinite possibilities were contained within the world.". It explicitly says there's "near-infinite" of them. And then it proceeds to say that there's finite space and characters "The space itself was finite and the characters were finite, but the combinations were infinite.". Which you could always argue that there is an uncountable infinity between 1 and 0 so you can have an uncountable infinity bound in a finite structure. And that's a fair argument, but having the original Japanese text for this to see if maybe it was a mistranslation would be nice. Unless of course there's additional context I'm missing, feel free to correct me.

In fact, the main universe from Ichiban Ushiro no Daimo has the virtual alternate dimension, which is embedded in a higher-dimensional space of non-insignificant (infinite) size. So by that alone, he is already Tier 1.

This would have significant implication, certainly. It could make the hierarchy Low 1-A, or even 1-A+. Do you have the quotes for that?

Go a step further and look at the hierarchy of stories mentioned regarding TLOI. That proves that stories containing stories are possible. In fact, if that can have an infinite story hierarchy, clearly stories with infinite story hierarchies are possible. Even the main universe is technically one containing lesser levels of stories, given that Soga Kena once BFR'd Junko and Akuto into a story that from that universe was fictional.
So alone by those the afterlife Akuto embodied by creating all infinite possible stories (and yes, the novel say infinite and he created all. He could just not survey them all at the same time) Sai Akuto already transcends a 1-A story hierarchy. And the gap between TLOI and Akuto is still that same infinite hierarchy on top of that.

This would certainly make the hierarchy undoubtedly 1-A+, being honest. But is there more context that the stories within stories are like a reality-fiction transcendence in the same way that the hierarchy is? Reading the blog when Akuto was creating a story it was implied it's just functionally a parallel universe instead.

But as I said, that's going strictly from the blog.

I do agree with Ionlisosite that this would make the Afterlife Low 1-C.

The world, the first layer, has the virtual alternate dimensions, which are infinite sized 4th dimensional spaces on it. This, of course, means that the Afterlife would fall into Low 1-C due to being the next level of fiction above it. So yeah, I completely disagree with Afterlife Akuto being anything below Low 1-C.

 

[Ionliosite]

This would have significant implication, certainly. It could make the hierarchy Low 1-A, or even 1-A+. Do you have the quotes for that?

I already posted the quote before, but here it is again:

The virtual alternate dimension was commonly referred to as a 4th dimensional space. Researchers’ understanding of it was as follows: “we don’t know why, but there is an infinitely vast space adjacent to our dimension.” It was thought to be dangerous to remain within it, so it was usually used to temporarily transfer oneself or objects or to trap intruders as a defensive panic room.

 

[Antvasima]

@Ultima_Reality @Sera_EX @AKM sama @Promestein

Your help would also be appreciated here.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, thank you for helping out Ogbunabali.

 

[Ogbunabali]

I already posted the quote before, but here it is again:

The problem with that is, that it's just a Low 2-C dimension that's infinite. And it doesn't mention anything about being embedded into a higher dimensional space, just that it's adjacent to the main dimension.

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

Also it's pretty obvious that they have trouble with english, so I wouldn't put it over actual feats when it doesn't even go against them.

It's true that his English is bad, but think of it this way, what we're reading is a Volume 13 fan translation, and what he knows is from official translation.(and even the person who wrote it) Which would you prefer? Is it the person who has bad English but has the official translation, or is it you who reads the fan translation?

We shouldn't use anything of those WoG stuff imo, since a lot of what he said there directly contradicts what's shown in the novel, which is forgivable considering he finished this series years ago.

I'm going to argue against something. You know that volume 13 is a fan translation, right? Also, when you say contradiction, if you are talking about afterlife, The most informed place for Afterlife is volume 13 and you criticize according to fan translation

 

[Ionliosite]

Considering DarkLK said multiple times the official translation for Volume 13 was bad and that was why we never used it, I'll just leave it as that. Also, how is the author having bad English even an argument? It's not like he wrote the novels in English or anything.

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

Considering DarkLK said multiple times the official translation for Volume 13 was bad and that was why we never used it,

the author stated on his blog that the official translation of volume 13 is not available ...

Addition: I mean, when we ask him questions, he might have a hard time answering them, he was using a translation app to answer in English, if I remember correctly.

 

[Ionliosite]

Volume 13 was officialy translated years ago. That the product ended up having a bad quality is a completely different matter.

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

İnteresting(He wrote in English by the way, I did not write)

 

[QuasiYuri]

No, we don't. Don't put false words into my mouth. I stand by what DontTalkDt said, not your points.

"Ok, now I'm free, time to write. Reading the mess above, YuriAkuto is mostly in tune with what Ultima and I already debated, so we both agree with a) The hierarchy of dreams and the hierarchy of fiction should be treated as one and the same and b) Due to being above it, Void Body is 1-A and TLOI scales.

Now, here comes the part I disagree with: the Afterlife being Tier 2. And for a very simple reason, actually. Let me take the quotes"

I'm referring to what you said here. You said DontalkDT also raised good arguments, but not that you agreed as far as I saw in the comment I was referring too.

So worst case, I didn't put false words.

 

[Ionliosite]

When I said "we both agree", I was talking about me and Ultima, not you. So yeah, I didn't say I agree with you at any point.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Doesn't it equate to the same regarding 1-A? You said you and Ultima agreed on one hierarchy and 1-A TLOI, and that what I said was in tune with what you debated.

You also precised that what you were disagreeing with was the tier 2 point.

Tho mb if I misunderstood whole thing.

 

[Ionliosite]

Yeah, it's ok, I do admit I worded it poorly.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Tho what's there exactly to prove now?

As far as I get it, DontalkDT argument is that "Sai Akuto is explicitly stated to create all possible stories, with possible even receiving a fairly strict definition", which was his goal, but was flat out said to have been abandonned as shown in the OP.

And "look at the hierarchy of stories mentioned regarding TLOI. That proves that stories containing stories are possible. In fact, if that can have an infinite story hierarchy, clearly stories with infinite story hierarchies are possible."

It was about the singular hierarchy where the Afterlife is at the bottom of, and him creating "all possible stories" was always treated as creating parallel universes.
Saying he made an unspoken new hieraechy based on the "creating all possibilities" (which he didn't do) is way too big of an assumption, and I don't think we ever treated such feats like this (otherwise every possibility-based multiverses with infinite universes would be the same).

Again, mb if I'm misunderstanding anything here.

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT @Matthew_Schroeder

What do you think that we should do here?

 

[DontTalkDT]

I would agree here, but (from the blog's quotes) first it said that there weren't actually infinite possibilities "In that case, it became clear that near infinite possibilities were contained within the world.". It explicitly says there's "near-infinite" of them. And then it proceeds to say that there's finite space and characters "The space itself was finite and the characters were finite, but the combinations were infinite.". Which you could always argue that there is an uncountable infinity between 1 and 0 so you can have an uncountable infinity bound in a finite structure. And that's a fair argument, but having the original Japanese text for this to see if maybe it was a mistranslation would be nice. Unless of course there's additional context I'm missing, feel free to correct me.

When I spoke of the multiverse I actually don't mean the stories Akuto creates, but the multiverse just in the main story (i.e. within the same level of fiction).
To summarize all the realms contained in just the one main story:

“Having all these different worlds is confusing. The real world, virtual alternate dimensions, outside the universe, non-virtual alternate dimensions, and the afterlife. Does that cover it?”

Hiroshi frowned and Bouichirou corrected him.

“Not quite. What you referred to as ‘outside the universe’ and ‘non-virtual alternate dimensions’ are the same thing. Not much is known about those alternate dimensions. We only know there are likely an infinite number. You had the rest right and the Law of Identity is related to them all. Most likely, she created them. That is why they are relatively easy to understand.”

The non-virtual alternate dimensions, which are nothing but parallel universes, are what is the infinite multiverse I was referring to. Since Akuto creates every story he would create countless ones of those.
Btw. to the realms mention above technically come countless timeline of each of them in addition to it, but that's not really important as we already have an infinite multiverse.

As for him creating infinite stories:

For example, the two statements “an elephant flew through the sky” and “Hitler visited Paris in the year 2000 AD” were both impossible in reality, but they worked in writing. If elephants were flying creatures and if Hitler had not died, they could occur even in reality. They were true in a world that could have been. In that case, it became clear that near infinite possibilities were contained within the world. They could even be seen as existing as infinite parallel worlds.

The space itself was finite and the characters were finite, but the combinations were infinite. Opening up the possibilities was not just a concept. It actually released the walls of the world that supposedly existed within Akuto.

It are said to be infinite, which makes sense if you consider the definition of "all possible stories":

“No, you don’t really understand what it means for it to take on any form. Are you familiar with the concept of possible worlds?”

“Possible worlds?”

Akuto “recalled” a term he did not previously known as if scanning through his brain and retrieving the data.

“I see. It’s a thought experiment where you assume a world where anything is possible and thus say anything logically feasible can happen.”

“Yes. In other words, anything that can be described in text can happen. That also tells us the limits of this world: anything that cannot be described cannot happen.”

Yoshie then began explaining the concept of possible worlds which was difficult to grasp just from the database information.

For example, the two statements “an elephant flew through the sky” and “Hitler visited Paris in the year 2000 AD” were both impossible in reality, but they worked in writing. If elephants were flying creatures and if Hitler had not died, they could occur even in reality. They were true in a world that could have been. In that case, it became clear that near infinite possibilities were contained within the world. They could even be seen as existing as infinite parallel worlds.

“You will create all of those logically possible worlds,” said Yoshie as if giving an order.

“All of them?” he asked back in astonishment.

“What remains after that will be your own will. You will see all worlds and choose for yourself.”

“I suppose I should search for the possibility of saving the world in this world where I can do anything. If I don’t, we may never escape this place.”

“In that case, I think you should start right away.” She produced a mana screen and displayed a model of history. “The data you can view is a copy of that from the world just before it was destroyed, but you can use that to calculate back and construct all possibilities.”

“But I feel like the worlds I would create would fairly ridiculous,” he said.

“That’s fine,” she replied. “Even the ridiculous worlds are a possibility.”

Akuto then decided to bring out those possibilities himself.

It's literally described as every logically consistent world. If you logically consider it there are infinite of those.

Now, as for the finite space thing you bring up: Yes, that's a little confusing and difficult to interpret. Taken literally it would already be contradicted by the quote regarding infinite sized 4th dimensional space.

One could simply see it as the author contradicting itself, but I think it actually has a deeper meaning which makes sense. One has to consider that Akuto is creating stories and views those from the outside. If you imagine those like books, then each story has a beginning and an end. It is written in a finite space and contains only a finite amount of (individual) characters.
Sai Akuto is doing all of this in order to find the perfect ending for his story. I think what the author is trying to say here in a convoluted way is that, while every story is of finite length and complexity the total amount of stories is infinite. I.e. books are finite objects, but there are an infinite amount of different books that could be written.


Now to get to the reality-fiction transcendence part: Yes, they certainly are. Now the stories Sai Akuto creates are all 1 level below them, so they are like a multiverse of stories. However, 1 story ≠ 1 universe. World ≠ Universe is this context. Stories can have much more inside them as proven by the fact that the main story contains a multiverse and higher dimensions and stuff.
A story is also nothing than a dream:

As she had continued reading the journal, the unknown lab head’s thoughts had continued in an even more frightening direction.

The demon king was a weapon and a portion of the network of systemized computer gods, but why did he gain his power?

That required thinking about the Law of Identity.

At face value, that was the undeniable principle that you were yourself.

The fact that you were the person who was thinking your thoughts could not be shaken and that had already been touched on when it came to proving the existence of the world.

But what if the world were someone’s dream?

That answer was also simple.

The world was created by the storyteller known as the Law of Identity.

Then what was the world? The world was fiction.

But at the same time, the world was an absolute truth from inside that fiction.

From the outside, it was fiction. From the inside, it was truth.

What if one tried viewing the world as fictional from the outside perspective?

How did the world come to be?

Rejecting all but the Law of Identity would leave yourself facing the one Law of Identity all alone. That would be one origin. It was possible the one having the dream lived in a world that was itself the dream of someone in another world that was again someone else’s dream, but even if that chain continued back infinitely, one specific origin could be found by facing that one Law of Identity.

That one would be the one who had taken in all existence and all life.

That one would be too lonely to call a god.

They would be a truly solitary individual.

Then what was the world?

All the miscellaneous things added to the Law of Identity would be the world.

Even if the world was fictional to the Law of Identity, that fiction could be life with a will of its own. In fact, it would normally exceed the Law of Identity’s will. And if each individual was free, someone would eventually attempt to learn the truth of the world.

I think the difference being like the fiction from the outside being mere fiction in literal sense or a dream of one of the higher layer people should suffice as the reality-fiction difference here. Otherwise, there was also the incidence of Akuto and Junko being BFR'd into a book by Keena.

The problem with that is, that it's just a Low 2-C dimension that's infinite. And it doesn't mention anything about being embedded into a higher dimensional space, just that it's adjacent to the main dimension.

Considering it's stated as 4th-dimensional space I don't think dimension refers to universe in this context. Like, it's not the 4th universe or something like that.

You're missing an important plot point here. He was supposed to bring infinite stories, but has shown, he litteraly abandonned the idea.

See previous point.

Also both hierarchy statements are only referring to how it is in relation to TLOI herself (arguably, it's more of an image for the difference between the world and her, given the journal hypothetic nature).

Also Afterlife clearly being put at the bottom, and Akuto stories especially being universes without any form of mention about higher layers, assuming he created entire hierarchies because "it is possible" is kind of a huge assumption.

He didn't abandon creating the stories. He abandoned trying to view all of them in his search for the perfect ending. In figurative terms, he created all the books, but he didn't read all of them.
It clearly describes how Akuto creates countless stories at once and releases the bounds of the world within himself in the process.

Your point regarding the afterlife being at the bottom is meaningless. I don't claim that Akuto raised up that hierarchy and transcended the afterlife. It's just that Akuto has created a duplicate of a story with such a hierarchy, as he created all possible stories which include such stories.

In other words, while the afterlife priorly was somewhere to the bottom of the story hierarchy (probably. Technically we don't know for sure) and had potentially infinite reality-fiction levels above it, after Akuto created all stories in the afterlife (and expanded it in the process) it had an infinite reality-fiction hierarchy below it and the same potentially infinite hierarchy above it as before.

We shouldn't take the possible worlds thing to the logical extreme, but not applying it to everything that exists in the verse would be blatantly be ignoring feats.

 

[DontTalkDT]

@DontTalkDT @Matthew_Schroeder

What do you think that we should do here?

I don't want to judge the detailed tier, but in my opinion, Sai Akuto (in the afterlife) should be at the level that reflects him having created and being above an infinite reality-fiction hierarchy of stories that contain things like higher-dimensional space.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the help DontTalk. I think that your evaluation makes good sense, and that we should use it.

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

(probably. Technically we don't know for sure)

If I somehow prove that the author is a reliable source, will you confirm his answer (he said higher) to this question?

 

[Ogbunabali]

When I spoke of the multiverse I actually don't mean the stories Akuto creates, but the multiverse just in the main story (i.e. within the same level of fiction).

Fair play on the infinite multiverse stuff. They do say infinite universes a few times, though it is contradicted at some points as well. Which is why I thought it'd be best if we could get the original translation as I wouldn't be surprised if this were a mistraslation of some kind.

Now to get to the reality-fiction transcendence part: Yes, they certainly are. Now the stories Sai Akuto creates are all 1 level below them, so they are like a multiverse of stories. However, 1 story ≠ 1 universe. World ≠ Universe is this context. Stories can have much more inside them as proven by the fact that the main story contains a multiverse and higher dimensions and stuff.

Stories can have more stuff in them, yeah. But the context in which he was referring to stories in the quote he wasn't talking about them in the hierarchy sense, rather the more literal meaning of the word. For instance like this.

For example, the two statements “an elephant flew through the sky” and “Hitler visited Paris in the year 2000 AD” were both impossible in reality, but they worked in writing. If elephants were flying creatures and if Hitler had not died, they could occur even in reality. They were true in a world that could have been. In that case, it became clear that near infinite possibilities were contained within the world. They could even be seen as existing as infinite parallel worlds.

A story is also nothing than a dream:

This seems to talk about the Law of Identity, not Akuto?

Him having a reality-fiction transcendence over his stories seem kind of contradicted with the fact that he himself is all of those universes.

“You and they are both universes. Perhaps we should refer to you as god universes. Before you released all of the world’s possibilities, it may have been only you that was the same as them.”

The space itself was finite and the characters were finite, but the combinations were infinite. Opening up the possibilities was not just a concept. It actually released the walls of the world that supposedly existed within Akuto.

This seems to imply they're just universes that exist as he himself is the universes.

Considering it's stated as 4th-dimensional space I don't think dimension refers to universe in this context. Like, it's not the 4th universe or something like that.

4 dimensional space is Low 2-C.

 

[Vexzito]

Reading the first part of why the Afterlife can't be 1-A being because of it having time (I know it's not the main argument), I thought a verse with dimensionality/space-time that extends up to Aleph_2 or beyond can still qualify for 1-A or am I mistaken?

Not trying to counter anything since I'm not very knowledgeable on DKD except when I watched it a few years ago just slightly confused on current qualifications for 1-A.

 

[QuasiYuri]

When I spoke of the multiverse I actually don't mean the stories Akuto creates, but the multiverse just in the main story (i.e. within the same level of fiction).
To summarize all the realms contained in just the one main story:

The non-virtual alternate dimensions, which are nothing but parallel universes, are what is the infinite multiverse I was referring to. Since Akuto creates every story he would create countless ones of those.
Btw. to the realms mention above technically come countless timeline of each of them in addition to it, but that's not really important as we already have an infinite multiverse.

Didn't understood it that way. Fine with it so far.

As for him creating infinite stories:


It are said to be infinite, which makes sense if you consider the definition of "all possible stories":

It's literally described as every logically consistent world. If you logically consider it there are infinite of those.

Now, as for the finite space thing you bring up: Yes, that's a little confusing and difficult to interpret. Taken literally it would already be contradicted by the quote regarding infinite sized 4th dimensional space.

One could simply see it as the author contradicting itself, but I think it actually has a deeper meaning which makes sense. One has to consider that Akuto is creating stories and views those from the outside. If you imagine those like books, then each story has a beginning and an end. It is written in a finite space and contains only a finite amount of (individual) characters.
Sai Akuto is doing all of this in order to find the perfect ending for his story. I think what the author is trying to say here in a convoluted way is that, while every story is of finite length and complexity the total amount of stories is infinite. I.e. books are finite objects, but there are an infinite amount of different books that could be written.

Problem here is that it is the goal he has, not what he did. The part you quoted is what he was proposed before doing it.

Now to get to the reality-fiction transcendence part: Yes, they certainly are. Now the stories Sai Akuto creates are all 1 level below them, so they are like a multiverse of stories. However, 1 story ≠ 1 universe. World ≠ Universe is this context. Stories can have much more inside them as proven by the fact that the main story contains a multiverse and higher dimensions and stuff.

A multiverse n all is still 4D tho. Also the multiverse is made of stories since every Extra-Universal Gods are one universe. So it isn't just "one story" which was always used to refer to the universe even in journal.

A story is also nothing than a dream:

I think the difference being like the fiction from the outside being mere fiction in literal sense or a dream of one of the higher layer people should suffice as the reality-fiction difference here. Otherwise, there was also the incidence of Akuto and Junko being BFR'd into a book by Keena.

Considering it's stated as 4th-dimensional space I don't think dimension refers to universe in this context. Like, it's not the 4th universe or something like that.

Dream analogy is only related to TLOI nature tho. Akuto's stories and Universal Gods are all portrayed as regular universes.

He didn't abandon creating the stories. He abandoned trying to view all of them in his search for the perfect ending. In figurative terms, he created all the books, but he didn't read all of them.
It clearly describes how Akuto creates countless stories at once and releases the bounds of the world within himself in the process.

"At that point, Akuto ended the story creation.

He had decided it was all meaningless.

The stories were developing, but the ones he created were nothing more than projections of his longing for a ridiculous world where the pleasant things would continue forever."

It didn't said he merely stopped looking, he stopped the creation process as a whole.

So I think the big thing here is that we disagree on what the stories he made qualify as.

And problem is that they never were treated as higher layers like the hierarchy he's trapped in.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Btw Ogbunabali explained what I'm trying to say infinitely better.

Have some trouble rn.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also, the 13th volume is not translated offically so there are errors.

It is tho.

 

[Ningenron]

So is there a conclusion here?

 

[Kaizuka_Satomi]

you know whats ironic akuto class number is 1-A

Now you mention it...

 

[Bernkastelll]

What was decided?

 

[Ned_the_outer_god]

What was decided?

From what I see.
Void body akuto and TLOI goes down to 1-A
The afterlife goes down to low 1-C

 

[Quintessence_PE]

From what I see.
Void body akuto and TLOI goes down to 1-A
The afterlife goes down to low 1-C

No they can't downgrade afterlife

 

[QuasiYuri]

No they can't downgrade afterlife

Once again, use arguments.

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

From what I see.
Void body akuto and TLOI goes down to 1-A
The afterlife goes down to low 1-C

I still don't think it's low 1-C, it's publicly 4D by definition

If afterlife is going to downgrade from 1-A, I agree with what Yuri said about the low 1-C. I don't think it can be low 1-C because in this scan, implying here that it's a 3D space and it's continue forever because it doesn't have an external wall like the world of the living.(It's like an 3D infinite space) Seems much more predisposition to 4D.

 

[Ren1999]

Following

 

[Antvasima]

YuriAkuto and Ionliosite:

What are the conclusions here so far?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

4D afterlife is contradicted by explanations of the cosmology. That the novel uses fourth dimension as a metaphor isn't grounds for ignoring everything else.

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

4D afterlife is contradicted by explanations of the cosmology. That the novel uses fourth dimension as a metaphor isn't grounds for ignoring everything else.

The person who says this is Akuto, who has full control of afterlife...

 

[RamadhanDayYet]

From the argument above yuri akuto has good explanation why some part must be rated at

The 1-A part seems fine but the "tier 2 or L1C" Part pretty much debatable

Neutral on this and proceed to learning toward 2-A

 

[Antvasima]

I think that we should let @DontTalkDT and @Ionliosite elaborate regarding how they think that we should handle the statistics for the verse.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I think that we should let @DontTalkDT and @Ionliosite elaborate regarding how they think that we should handle the statistics for the verse.

I also contacted Ultima, since Ion said they debated a lot on the subject.