Here we go again: 1-A Ichiban downgrade, the sequel.

[Ionliosite]

Snip

No evidence was ever provided for 1-A Afterlife tho, so that should be completely removed.

 

[QuasiYuri]

No evidence was ever provided for 1-A Afterlife tho, so that should be completely removed.

Didn't you agree with DontalkDT arguments about it tho...?
Like when I said that we agreed that Afterlife wasn't 1-A you said that I misunderstood and that you agreed with DontalkDT (who argued that it was).

 

[Ionliosite]

Didn't you agree with DontalkDT arguments about it tho...?

I said his arguments made sense. When I asked for evidence of the main crux of it, he provided none, meaning that 1-A is unfounded. Also, I never said I agreed with something as ridiculous as this "compromise".

 

[QuasiYuri]

Misunderstood again then. My bad.
If you aren't both for 1-A, it does change things.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I said his arguments made sense. When I asked for evidence of the main crux of it, he provided none, meaning that 1-A is unfounded. Also, I never said I agreed with something as ridiculous as this "compromise".

Which main crux of it?

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

bump

 

[Antvasima]

Which main crux of it?

@Ionliosite

 

[Lormac_CC]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

Ionliosite has been missing from this forum for 11 days. I think that we have to reach an agreement without him.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I mean... I think we had reached an agreement before he said he wasn't ok with it. We had even applied it already. Soooo....

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, you can probably apply that then.

 

[Lormac_CC]

Let's wait for lonliosite, I kind of get where he's coming from as there isn't a solid justification for the 1-A rating

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. We can keep this thread open for if/when he comes back.

 

[Ionliosite]

Which main crux of it?

That there's no evidence for 1-A in absolutely anything you posted, and that you completely made up stuff that downright doesn't exist as a way to justify it. Because, while what you said IS 1-A, you provided no evidence for your claims, and the evidence that HAS been provided shows nothing indicating what you said.

 

[Antvasima]

I appreciate that you are back Ionliosite, but please be more polite and respectful to DontTalk. He is one of the greatest backbones of this community.

 

[DontTalkDT]

That there's no evidence for 1-A in absolutely anything you posted, and that you completely made up stuff that downright doesn't exist as a way to justify it. Because, while what you said IS 1-A, you provided no evidence for your claims, and the evidence that HAS been provided shows nothing indicating what you said.

I obviously disagree. So let's try to locate which part you have an issue with. Tell me which of the following steps of reasoning you disagree with:

1. Infinite story hierarchies can exist in the verse due to what we are told about TLOI. The quote regarding that is on her profile, so I don't think I need to post it again.
2. Transcending an infinite story hierarchy, where each story is fiction from the outside, like that is 1-A, by our wiki standards.
3. Sai Akuto was supposed to create every possible story, specifically every story which doesn't contain a logical contradiction. (This quote was also already posted. It's relatively at the end of volume 13 chapter 3 and at the beginning of chapter 4)
4. The before mentioned infinite story hierarchies qualify as possible stories by the definition the verse has given, as we know they can exist and are stories.
5. Therefore Sai Akuto was supposed to also create a story that matches said infinite story hierarchy. If he did so in practice, that would hence be a 1-A feat by 2.

Any problem with my reasoning so far?

 

[QuasiYuri]

I understand Ionliosite point of view tho.

Assuming that one of these universes has an infinite hierarchy, said hierarchy encompassing the entire Afterlifes, when absolutely nothing even imply that is a big jump of assumption. This is kinda the point I also brought before.

I don't think we would do the same for any verse with infinite MWI, and as shown prior, the story stuff wasn't complete even when Akuto "abandonned", so it does make it a rating without actual proof here.

After all, if we fully went that way, we would have to assume that there's a universe where TLOI is inferior to Akuto or suchlike since he created everything possible and all.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Assuming that one of these universes has an infinite hierarchy, said hierarchy encompassing the entire Afterlifes, when absolutely nothing even imply that is a big jump of assumption. This is kinda the point I also brought before.

It really isn't. It's as basic of a reason as saying "Universe A is 6 dimensional. Universe A is part of the Multiverse. Character B created the Multiverse. Therefore character B created 6 dimensional space". It's basic reasoning based on what the novel tells us.

Saying something like: "A reality corresponding to anything that can be put into writing means Marvel is included" or "Akuto creating every story means he must create a story with himself creating every story in it, that way creating an infinite hierarchy of stories" would be a big jump of assumptions, because it introduces structures into the verse that, while they technically should be included, were never explicitly mentioned. But what I'm suggesting is extremely basic reasoning using only the elements that the verse has shown us that it has.

Heck, there even is the story density idea telling us that Akuto created meta-fictional stories, which further supports this line of reasoning.

After all, if we fully went that way, we would have to assume that there's a universe where TLOI is inferior to Akuto or suchlike since he created everything possible and all.

TLOI is above all stories, though. She is by nature one step above all stories. As such there is no story where TLOI is inferior to Akuto, meaning such a possible story doesn't exist. At best there is a story where a copy called TLOI is inferior to him. Other characters, like the extra-universal gods, actually became possibilities in his stories.

At the same time, you're wrong that she doesn't appear in the story. In the Formless Universe TLOI is stated to be able to be able to exist. And remember everyone with a soul is technically TLOI in a sense. And in the story Akuto creates in the end, the story about Brave writing the story to end all stories, TLOI appears as well.
Given, TLOI certainly can't be forced to exist in this stories against her will, but she actually allows Akuto to have her exist in them.

and as shown prior, the story stuff wasn't complete even when Akuto "abandonned", so it does make it a rating without actual proof here.

Yoshie, who has shown herself to be knowledgable on these matters, believed Akuto is able to do it. So we already have a reliable statement in that regard. Akuto and Brave, both likewise knowledgable, still seemed to consider him basically all powerful in his world even after story creation, indicating that there was no change in the idea that Akuto could do these things. I.e. even after all that testing, he hasn't found any limit to what Akuto can do in his own world.

“What does it feel like to be able to do anything?” he asked after taking a breath.

“It feels like arriving at the farthest reaches of biological pleasure,” immediately replied Akuto.

Also, as I already said, I do think you are wrong to think that Akuto created the stories one story at the time all along. The beginning of the chapter indicates different things:

Opening up all possibilities may have been a mistake.

The space itself was finite and the characters were finite, but the combinations were infinite. Opening up the possibilities was not just a concept. It actually released the walls of the world that supposedly existed within Akuto.

This was similar to further universes being born within him.

The props used naturally extended beyond him.

In other words, even the extra-universal gods became possibilities in the story.

As a result, all stories fell into chaos.

He was opening up all possibilities in a literal sense. And all stories fell into chaos.

Instead of disregarding this part and focussing on the part where Akuto ends story creation to say he only created them one at a time, it makes more sense to think about how those parts fit together.
I mean, initially, the stories were supposed to have fallen into pure chaos and in the end Akuto coordinated searches through them one by one. Something clearly changed in the meantime.

The key to getting what changed is in my opinion to understand what exactly the entire Tower of Babel stuff was about.

Until then, it could be said that the story was shared by all. They had all been playing a part in that story and thus the world had not been allowed to interfere with the stories other than Akuto’s.

So what if the people ceased to share the story?

What this part tells us is that people stopped sharing a story immediately after Akuto's story creation. They didn't even share Akuto's story anymore. What one must understand is that all of reality is a story in Ichiban Ushiro no Daimao and that it has a philosophy of sentient beings only be able to think and experience in terms of stories.

To recognize reality, stories are needed. And this is because relationships with others are born here.

(There is more regarding this in the forword of that volume btw.)
So if Akuto created all stories separately, so that they aren't shared, they amongst each other and even he himself couldn't really have an information exchange with them, so to speak. No relationship of any kind is possible:

It was only now that mankind truly became “individuals”. Even if they could speak to each other, no kind of relationship could be formed if they did not share the same stories. The relationships of friends, enemies, and even strangers could not be established.

And that is the thing, when Akuto first created all stories he just created isolated individuals in their own stories.

When the possibilities were infinite, stories instantly became impossible.

Countless isolated individuals were formed.

So that's why Akuto creating all stories simultaneously shows no results. Since he created the stories as isolated and not part of his own stories, he couldn't understand/recognize/have a relationship to the story. This entire stuff about separate stories that can't interact ends with this text:

First person.


Even so, stories…no, something even before that began.

I slept in darkness. No, I simply lay in darkness. I had given up. I did nothing.

I heard a voice.

It was distant. Or was it close? I could not tell.

Who was the voice calling for? Me? Someone else?

I had no way of finding out. It was even possible I had been the one to utter it.

It was possible I could confirm the existence of time for as long as the voice lasted. But it had no units. It was permanent. There was no guarantee the same word was not being repeated again and again. Even if a bell continued ringing for all eternity, there were no words to indicate a single, unique ringing of the bell. Which ring was it? Based on what division? In which eternity?

I decided to assume the voice was mine.

A story still had not been established. There was not even solitude here. After all, the first person was all that existed.

I produced sound.

There was sound.

I produced sound in order to speak.

There was speech.

There was language.

The correct answer could not be found.

It had no meaning.

It was not wrong or right.

It was meaninglessness. It was mistaken. It was a failure. Nothing existed there.

I moved my body.

There was movement.

Outside and inside. That division just barely existed.

There was movement.

Where to? Inside the space or outside the space? Heading inside led to nothingness and heading outside led to nothingness, but it was still a division. Even if a bell continued ringing for all eternity, there were no words to indicate a single, unique ringing of the bell. Which ring was it? Based on what division? In which eternity?

Even so, I counted.

I made a division.

The divisions increased.

I separated the heavens from the earth.

I moved.

I could move.

I could move the earth.

I stood. I stood using bones and the muscles of my back.

I hurt. But the pain was not everywhere. The pain was inside, but it was not outside.

I cried out.

It was meaninglessness. It was mistaken. It was a failure. That was all I had.

That mistaken noise was the only place a voice could be found. That error was all that was inside. The pain alone was there.

It was not there. I could not be sure. Mistakes were all I had.

So I made mistakes.

I made more mistakes.

I did whatever I could to make mistakes.

I made mistakes with a powerful will.

I made mistakes again and again.

And that led to…nothing.

I looked.

I mistook what I saw.

I mistook more of what I saw.

I did whatever I could to mistake what I saw.

I mistook what I saw with a powerful will.

I mistook what I saw again and again.

There was a mistake there.

I could see it.

I could see you.


Second person.


You stood in the light. No, you stood still in the light. You were there. You did nothing.

You heard a voice.

It was distant.

It was calling out to someone. You? Someone else?

You made a division between you and others, between here and there.

You decided to assume the voice came from “there”.

It may have been a story. You may have been solitary. After all, the voice may have come from someone other than you. After all, the second person existed.

You produced sound.

There was sound.

You produced sound in order to speak.

There was speech.

There was language.

The correct answer could not be found.

It had meaning.

It could also be mistaken.

You cried out.

It was meaningful. It was mistaken. It was a failure. You had all that.

That mistaken noise was the only place a voice could be found. That error was everywhere. The pain was there.

Mistakes were all you had.

So you made mistakes.

You made more mistakes.

You did whatever you could to make mistakes.

You made mistakes with a powerful will.

You made mistakes again and again.

And that led to…a story.

What is that about? I think it's about creating a story that is shared. Remember, in order to "test" a story as he does after this part he needs to share the story. If not, then you just have a chaos of stories that can't interact, like in the beginning of the chapter. Now Akuto creates stories as part of his own story, so that the story is shared with him and he can perceive and hence test it. I think that's why the author only now shows us, who we are reading Akuto's story, what kinds of stories he creates.
In any case, now that Akuto creates stories that are shared with his story, he can start testing them, by letting the stories happen in his story one at a time. But that takes long and he eventually stops doing that.

TL;DR: Akuto creates all stories -> recognizes that stories completely separate from his story can't be viewed by himself -> starts creating stories that take place in his own story to test them -> Takes forever, so Akuto eventually stops
That's how I understand the totality of the events between when he tries to create and test all stories and when he meets brave.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that DontTalk makes sense above.

 

[Ionliosite]

I appreciate that you are back Ionliosite, but please be more polite and respectful to DontTalk. He is one of the greatest backbones of this community.

How the hell is asking for evidence of his claims unpolite and disrepecteful? That's basic burden of proof procedure. Being a "backbone" doesn't give him right to be able to pass off anything without evidence of it. Besides, he STILL hasn't provided any evidence of his previous claims, instead going on a long tangent that both Plank and Yuri already pointed out doesn't qualify for 1-A to begin with.

 

[AKUTO123]

Why are you coming out so hard, rather than explaining why he didn't provide evidence and why what he said is not evidence?

 

[Antvasima]

It is the "completely made up stuff" part that seemed too harsh.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Besides, he STILL hasn't provided any evidence of his previous claims, instead going on a long tangent that both Plank and Yuri already pointed out doesn't qualify for 1-A to begin with.

As I asked you before, can you please tell me which claim you are specifically are referring to and what your problem with it is?

As it stands I have provided quotes and extensive explanation to all my claims, so unless you get more specific then "there is no evidence" and "doesn't qualify for 1-A" I can't adress or consider your objection.

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

Will blog be edited?

 

[Antvasima]

@QuasiYuri @DontTalkDT @Ionliosite

So should we go with DontTalk's solution above?

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

What? But that's illegal!

I guess legal, now because he's been gone for exactly 19 days. well whatever,I hope he will come back...
I want to make some small additions here;

1. I think Kento's intelligence is higher than Genius. He is the person who built the ship in Act 12, so what are the features of this ship? These are the features;
   The ship is able to fly, distribute the mana, and has its own energy unit, even implied to be the same system as the Brave suite and the Brave Suit, if I remember correctly, was one of the reasons Bouichirou was the Extraordinary Genius.
   • 
2. Overwhelming Aura (Act 9)

• 

3.Limited telekinesis with Keena (Act 6)​

• 
• 

4. Resistance to heat manipulation for Kei

 

[Guardian_Doge]

Snip

Might just be me but those images don't work

 

[QuasiYuri]

Agree.

 

[Teezar]

Following.

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

Might just be me but those images don't work

Respectively.

 

[Delta333]

Respectively.

Those small additions seem fine

 

[Antvasima]

So should we go with DontTalk's solution above?

@DontTalkDT @QuasiYuri

 

[AKUTO123]

I guess legal, now because he's been gone for exactly 19 days. well whatever,I hope he will come back...
I want to make some small additions here;

1. I think Kento's intelligence is higher than Genius. He is the person who built the ship in Act 12, so what are the features of this ship? These are the features;
   The ship is able to fly, distribute the mana, and has its own energy unit, even implied to be the same system as the Brave suite and the Brave Suit, if I remember correctly, was one of the reasons Bouichirou was the Extraordinary Genius.
   • 
2. Overwhelming Aura (Act 9)

• 

3.Limited telekinesis with Keena (Act 6)​

• 
• 

4. Resistance to heat manipulation for Kei

I agree with all

 

[Antvasima]

That is probably fine to add, yes.

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

Ok, I'll add it when I'm available. In the meantime, should I add "possibly higher" to Kento's intelligence part or is it directly "Extraordinary Genius"?

 

[Antvasima]

I am not sure. It seems like a borderline case. At least Genius may be safest.

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

Understand, thank you for informing.

 

[Antvasima]

No problem.

 

[HalilAssassino]

Can I make a suggestion please?

I want the picture in the title of act 13 in akuto's profile to be replaced with the picture below. Normally in the picture there is fujiko in the background, but here the fujiko in the background has been deleted. İt would be better to upload the image in which the character appears only himself. If you can't see the picture, I'll leave the link here.

 

[Antvasima]

I handled it.