Gotta Revise 'Em All, Part 1: Splitting the Pokemon Canons (Massive Pokemon CRT)

[Ayewale]

Honestly it would be really tedious to determine which are a part of same continuity and which are different .However Agreeing with the OP

At the very least, I managed to put a rough draft into the original post.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Literally in the page standards blog

Which doesnt list us accepting flying types resisting earth or rock manipulation. Thank you.

 

[Pikaman]

Which doesnt list us accepting flying types resisting earth or rock manipulation. Thank you.

It says that in the case of Pokémon resisting ground type moves (as flying types do) to apply what I quoted above. Holy crap.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

It says that in the case of Pokémon resisting ground type moves (as flying types do) to apply what I quoted above. Holy crap.

Regardless, a thread to remove this bullcrap is going to be made ASAP.

 

[Pikaman]

It says that in the case of Pokémon resisting ground type moves (as flying types do) to apply what I quoted above. Holy crap.

If you want a practical example Charizard has resistance to Earth Manipulation on his profile

 

[Pikaman]

Regardless, a thread to remove this bullcrap is going to be made ASAP.

Go ahead but I will be there arguing hard against classifying type immunities as game mechanics, there is so much wrong with that sentiment. The standards we have now were set out across 2 threads with 6 pages combined not very long ago

 

[Random-Helper323]

Why is everyone's best evidence here is gen 1 and 2?

In my case because I've only seen the first three generations. If it's canon to the anime it happened, and it can't just be ignored. In general the anime seems to alternate between taking types seriously and not. I was going to say that's likely more PIS, but whatever.

How about you prove that typings and immunity don't exist in the latest season?

I've been on the fence, mostly suggesting the Pokedex at least is common across all timelines. I haven't been trying to downgrade anything. Calm down.

Because so far everything has been very much consistent after the pokemon anime started taking things serious and actually made an effort to portray the pokemon world and typings accordingly.

The anime still has a history of inconsistency. And Pikachu fights legendaries later as well and still manages to lose against some fodder Pokémon. To say nothing of whoever wrote the Gen 3 anime obviously having some love affair with the move iron tail even though it wasn't that good.

As for game mechanics, it's pretty clear that if a Pokémon is immune to ground type moves due to flying typing despite their avatar being on the ground but that changes when Gravity is used to force them to the ground, the avatar is likely a misrepresentation. We know the avatar is inaccurate, unless we believe Pokémon stand still facing each other until receiving orders and then stand still while being attacked. That is classic turned-based gameplay stuff. Even the opening of Red and Blue Version showed two Pokémon dodging attacks and moving around more than the avatars do.

 

[Agnaa]

I agree with the OP. It always rubbed me the wrong way that stuff like Mystery Dungeon, where Pokemon build large societies, use a wider variety of items, and even use TMs on themselves, was considered to scale to the vastly different portrayals in the mainline series games.

 

[Ayewale]

Regardless, a thread to remove this bullcrap is going to be made ASAP.

Creating a counter-argument to a revision before the revision is even completed will likely be denied by default. Plenty of valid CRTs get denied all the time because of that, so you'll probably have to wait until we're done, at the very least.

Also that thread wouldn't really get much traction because we'd just be repeating ourselves endlessly. You refuse to even acknowledge that people have responded to your counterarguments and still haven't agreed with them, simply saying that 'people haven't responded to your counters'.

 

[Lou_change]

Legendaries get a lot of feats in other media: Mewtwo and Deoxys gain possibly a dozen+ powers combined just from the anime alone, and get even more stuff thanks to manga powers and scaling chains.

Yes but the thing is several legendaries outside of the manga just have being stronger than normal Pokemon like the regi and all who scale to them about ten total which means we use the really dumb bird trio baseline based one the idea of the three birds combined beating luiga should scale them to one third the mere action of it flapping it's wings.

Mystery Dungeon isn't separate from the multiverse since the main character is a human literally going to the pokemon world as a pokemon. It's acknowledging the main world and MD world being parallel to each other and having a connection.

That said, specific pokemon like the main characters, the antagonist, and things like Mystery Dungeon Groyvle would get their own pages as they're specific characters.

I am not saying it is separate but what is the main world you are talking about the human world isn't even confirmed to be like most worlds or one we now for example and even then the Pokemon world is clearly different.

Go ahead but I will be there arguing hard against classifying type immunities as game mechanics, there is so much wrong with that sentiment. The standards we have now were set out across 2 threads with 6 pages combined not very long ago

Here is the grounded status

 

[Ayewale]

As for game mechanics, it's pretty clear that if a Pokémon is immune to ground type moves due to flying typing despite their avatar being on the ground but that changes when Gravity is used to force them to the ground, the avatar is likely a misrepresentation. We know the avatar is inaccurate, unless we believe Pokémon stand still facing each other until receiving orders and then stand still while being attacked. That is classic turned-based gameplay stuff. Even the opening of Red and Blue Version showed two Pokémon dodging attacks and moving around more than the avatars do.

But why is the avatar treated as a misrepresentation and not intentional? There are several flying-type pokemon whose 2d sprites has them actually flying, yet all of the flying types, perched or not, and just because it's a turn-based rpg doesn't mean that people can't be animated to fly...? Even as early as generation 2 you had flying types that were drawn as flying. Yet, even when pidgeot's sprite is perched, it's immune to ground type attacks.

I agree with the rest of your post but I don't really see why the avatars would be considered to be 'inaccurate'. Generally we take animations from games exactly as they are unless there's WoG saying otherwise (e.g. GoW developers talking about how Kratos's true strength cannot be conveyed in game).

 

[Pikaman]

Guys, Kukui is apparently making a CRT to challenge our current Pokémon typing standards, if that’s the case save discussion about it for said CRT

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

The real problem is finding non-game renders for Pokemon

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I am not saying it is separate but what is the main world you are talking about the human world isn't even confirmed to be like most worlds or one we now for example and even then the Pokemon world is clearly different.

By "main world" I mean the main pokemon world with trainers and what not. I have to go back to a previous discussion here about it where someone I know posted it, but evidence was given to prove it was in reference with the main world with trainers existing in it.

To clarify by the way, im not saying we should include every single medium in the multiverse. If we want to separate some obscure things that dont have a reason to be considered canon to it, then im fine with removing those. Im mainly disagreeing with separating things like the anime, manga and games from each other. The main mediums.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

To clarify by the way, im not saying we should include every single medium in the multiverse.

... that's precisely what the thread aims to change in the first place, lol. That's the entire argument, as OP acknowledges the fact that certain files will most likely remain the same as they are portrayed consistently across the mediums.

But those individual cases where is not needs to be split, as per the standard practice on site. Right there you agree with the premise of the thread. xD

 

[Sniper670]

I will say every single piece of media takes place somewhere in the multiverse

Cinnabar island was mentioned and referenced in Pokken.

Masters location is somewhere in the Pokémon world

Pokémon Unite takes place on an island within the Pokémon world

For Mystery Dungeon, the main world is where the trainers come from. And Coronet rock is proof of that

 

[Lou_change]

I am not suggesting making profiles for every Pokemon in mystery dungeon just for the important ones also there are first stage Pokemon consistently fighting legendary Pokemon in this universe and winning.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

... that's precisely what the thread aims to change in the first place, lol. That's the entire argument, as OP acknowledges the fact that certain files will most likely remain the same as they are portrayed consistently across the mediums.

But those individual cases where is not needs to be split, as per the standard practice on site. Right there you agree with the premise of the thread. xD

But the OP is trying to argue that the more bigger mediums like the anime and games aren't shared, which is what im vehemently opposed to. Thats what I gathered from his arguments.

If we're talking like just removing the obscure stuff that doesn't have a reason to be considered shared, then I won't oppose that, as I never thought just everything gets counted in the first place. Just stuff that could be argued to be connected.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

But the OP is trying to argue that the more bigger mediums like the anime and games aren't shared, which is what im vehemently opposed to. Thats what I gathered from his arguments.

If we're talking like just removing the obscure stuff that doesn't have a reason to be considered shared, then I won't oppose that, as I never thought just everything gets counted in the first place. Just stuff that could be argued to be connected.

Key wording in all of this: "individual portrayals". Certain feats will also have to be split based on that. Though it's mainly the legendary pokémon that will get affected by that.

At the absolute least, that's the primary reason I personally agree with the premise of the thread, while also agreeing with the consistent showings for a Pokémon species be shared between all mediums by default (as per Executor's blog and myriad of examples, including particularly the pokédex).

 

[Ayewale]

Multiverse or not, it doesn't mean that they should then share a canon. I'm beating a dead horse by this point but Marvel, DC, Transformers and many more all consider (a) different mediums/games/shows a part of the wider multiverse and (b) we still consider them non-canon by default.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Key wording in all of this: "individual portrayals". Certain feats will also have to be split based on that. Though it's mainly the legendary pokémon that will get affected by that.

I mean, I guess? But what I don't understand is why the legendaries would be effected by this the most since they would be in the same boat as normal pokemon in terms of species scaling. Legendaries powers and lore abilities are universally the same across the mediums, which is part of why the cross scaling works, especially if the canons have something to suggest they are linked universes.

That and, of course, seeing if theres anti-feats across those mediums for those legendaries, which for the most part there isn't.

Multiverse or not, it doesn't mean that they should then share a canon. I'm beating a dead horse by this point but Marvel, DC, Transformers and many more all consider (a) different mediums/games/shows a part of the wider multiverse and (b) we still consider them non-canon by default.

And im beating a dead horse with the same exact counter arguments against this.

Youu aren't allowed to cross scale the feats of different characters across those mediums because they're all different and unique characters. Species scaling is a completely different take because we aren't scaling legendaries to entirely different counterparts. They are all universally the same creature with the same capabilities.

Not to mention, your only just ignoring the option that you should in fact consider them canon if they're confirmed as part of their multiverses.

 

[Agnaa]

Kukui, I remember you asking for examples of differences, and I've provided some here:

I agree with the OP. It always rubbed me the wrong way that stuff like Mystery Dungeon, where Pokemon build large societies, use a wider variety of items, and even use TMs on themselves, was considered to scale to the vastly different portrayals in the mainline series games.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Kukui, I remember you asking for examples of differences, and I've provided some here:

Well here’s the thing with these.

In terms of the things like large societies, that would only mean MD isn’t in the exact same setting as the main Pokémon world. But we aren’t saying that they are. The point is moreso that the universes are linked as part of the same Pokémon multiverse rather than the same setting. And even then, some MD games can explain this, like explorers of time and darkness where Pokémon existing without humans is in the past. But the main point I meant you should get. Then being in the same actual setting wasn’t what was being used for MD.

That being said, as I might’ve said before, I don’t think TM abilities should really be given to wild Pokémon unless they’re given a trainer key since TMs are for trainer Pokémon specifically. If we want to separate those, that we could do?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I’m at work now by the way so I’m probably not going to respond right away but I will when I have time.

heads up.

 

[Agnaa]

That being said, as I might’ve said before, I don’t think TM abilities should really be given to wild Pokémon unless they’re given a trainer key since TMs are for trainer Pokémon specifically. If we want to separate those, that we could do?

That's kind of the issue, I have the impression that Pokemon in the mainline series of games are established to not be able to use complicated devices like TMs, while PMD has any random wild Pokemon able to use them. As well as vitamins, orbs, and link boxes.

I haven't double-checked that my memory is actually accurate on that, though. I only remember for certain that "Pokemon don't understand how to use these complicated items" was the explanation for why they could use berries but not medicine. Which still applies to some stuff we see them use in PMD, but not all of it.

 

[Antvasima]

Afaik Armorchompy, Andytrenom, JustSomeWeirdo, Confluctor, Colonel_Krukov, and myself favor a profile split at the moment.

You can add me to the list, although my opinion isn't as valid, due to my lack of knowledge.

Thank you, so the above list plus me and Krukov then.

Anyway, which of the staff members who are knowledgeable about Pokemon that I called for earlier today haven't shown up here yet?

 

[Ayewale]

Well here’s the thing with these...

"They're all universally the same creatures with different abilties so they should be cross-scaled."
"Just because they're the same creature doesn't mean they should be cross-scaled."
"What about their abilities"
endless examples of differences
dismisses every example "What about their abilities?"

There have been so many differences between canons pointed out in this thread so far and you have dismissed literally all of them as 'multiverse, duh', while saying that they should be cross-scaled due to their similarity. You can't both say that they should share canons due to being extremely similar and that they can also be extremely different, like...huh?

 

[Pikaman]

And im beating a dead horse with the same exact counter arguments against this.

Youu aren't allowed to cross scale the feats of different characters across those mediums because they're all different and unique characters. Species scaling is a completely different take because we aren't scaling legendaries to entirely different counterparts. They are all universally the same creature with the same capabilities.

Armor has already shown proof that them being a species is in every way irrelevant to wiki standards

 

[Antvasima]

Do any staff members support Kukui's view here?

 

[Agnaa]

@Executor_N0 seems to learn towards Kukui's side, having taken a few issues with the OP's ideas, but I don't think has been in full agreement with Kukui.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. It seems like this revision has likely been accepted then, or are we still waiting for some of the staff members that I sent a notification to earlier?

 

[Pikaman]

I will note since Kukui seems to be looking to change the typing standards we have for Pokémon in an upcoming CRT, which would at the least null the credibility of some supporting evidence I brought up in the thread, we should probably at least wait until that CRT is concluded before moving to part 2 of the CRT

Granted, I (with all due respect to Kukui’s opinion on the matter) can’t at the moment imagine their proposed changes gaining much traction given the heavy amount of rather recent staff opinion that lead to the creation of our current standards, so assuming Kukui is quick with making the CRT (they themselves mentioned making it “ASAP”) then it might not be much of an issue

 

[Bobsican]

Of note is that if this gets a pass, Digimon should take the same treatment as it's the exact same situation, or else it'd be a double standard.

 

[Pikaman]

Of note is that if this gets a pass, Digimon should take the same treatment as it's the exact same situation, or else it'd be a double standard.

Yeah similar revisions would have to be applied to Digimon as well unless the supporters can prove they are any different to how Pokémon currently treats its profiles.

 

[Sniper670]

Yeah similar revisions would have to be applied to Digimon as well unless the supporters can prove they are any different to how Pokémon currently treats its profiles.

Digiverse is more dead than my great grandma

 

[Antvasima]

Wasn't there a successful revision for Digimon recently? And didn't Executor create quite a lot of functional standards for it?

 

[Bobsican]

Even more of a reason to just delete the verse if anything, assuming the Digimon supporters can't handle it soon and all.

 

[Antvasima]

Eh? We do not just delete thoroughly well-defined verses with good already existing reasoning for their statistics just because most of the supporters get mostly inactive.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Wasn't there a successful revision for Digimon recently? And didn't Executor create quite a lot of functional standards for it?

Correct IIRC as Executor has a few blogs, but right now we focused on Pokemon

 

[Antvasima]

Correct IIRC as Executor has a few blogs, but right now we focused on Pokemon

I was referring to this:

Even more of a reason to just delete the verse if anything, assuming the Digimon supporters can't handle it soon and all.