Gotta Revise 'Em All, Part 1: Splitting the Pokemon Canons (Massive Pokemon CRT)

[Antvasima]

I've linked Ayewale's thorough response to that post before. It's back here on page 6.

Thank you.

 

[Antvasima]

Alright, I'll try:

1. In regards to event Pokemon, it doesn't seem like there's any proof that the majority are actually 'the same' as the one from the movie and not just a promotional gimmick? The Wobuffet can be assumed to be the same, but for the rest of the movies I think occam's razor would apply: "They're actually the exact same Pokemon from the movies despite the movies being alternate timelines completely incongruent with the games and despite there being no statement on this" versus "It's a promotional gimmick".
   1. It might seem like an annoying argument, but you do have to prove that they are the same, instead of stating that "they were released to promote the movie, so they are the same".
   2. The Zygarde example actually helps my point. It literally says it right there that the Pokemon are released for promotion: "To commemorate the TV broadcast of "Pokemon XY&Z".
2. The Pokemon Manga having strict rules regarding it's adapation is not a point for making it share the same canon as the games and anime. I've addressed this point probably half a dozen times in this thread now and you didn't really say anything different from Kukui or Executor here.
3. Saying that the capabilities of wild Pokemon are the same in all mediums is blatantly false. Again, I've gone through a lot of examples in this very thread (Deoxys being the prime example) and you didn't seem to respond to those.
4. Overall while your post is good, it seemed like you didn't really go through all of the arguments I'd made against Kukui and Executor and Arceus prior? I can understand if you disagree with them, but you don't—it seemed like you didn't acknowledge them outright.
   1. That being said, I understand that you couldn't go through the entire thread (especially with all of the derailment and whatnot). So this isn't really your fault.

As for the blog, I don't want to make a very lengthy rant about that since the author isn't here, but it seems to fall into the (already discussed) trap of "the games/anime/manga reference the anime/manga/games, so ergo these two characters are the same!" which is silly. The thread has talked about this so much that it's even listed as a counterargument in the OP. As for specifics:

• Many of the 'statements' of the characters being the same do not exist. For example, he claims this as evidence that Steven Stone is the same in all canons...but there is literally no evidence other than the fact that they discuss all of his various appearances. It's late here so I might've missed everything but there's literally nothing supporting that.
  • This is honestly the biggest problem with the blog. Every single 'trainer spotlight' link proves literally nothing about the characters being the same because all of them are just history lessons...and he uses the trainer spotlights a lot, it is arguably 40% of the blog. If CN made an article talking about all the different Bens throughout the history of Ben 10, we wouldn't say Reboot Ben and Classic Ben are the same people.
• I have already acknowledged all of the game's references to the anime and vice versa. In fact the list is even in the OP. Again, ya should have read more of the thread kek
• Mere references to other canons mean nothing. If we took this as evidence we would have to make literally every other big media franchise share one canon.
• Things being "based off" other things also does not count for much. It's not used commonly throughout the blog but that can pretty much be summarized as a 'reference'.
• Most of the strongest points of the blog (Ash-Greninja, for instance) were talked about pretty extensively in this thread already, too.
• The Manga adapations of the movies are canon to neither the manga nor the movies.
• His reasons for the TCG being canon are also notably bad. For example, he says that the Deoxys from the movie is the same as the one from the TCG. Why? Because the TCG based a set off it, so they must be canon? I double-checked to make sure I wasn't missing anything but this sort of reasoning is circular as all ****, and he uses it multiple times too (like the trainer spotlights).
  • "The TCG adaptation of the movie is canon to the movie."
    "Why?"
    "Because the TCG is an adaptation of the movie." With these sorts of standards, we should make the movie adaptations of every book/comic canon.

The blog doesn't really have anything this thread hasn't addressed multiple times. In fact it seems particular bad because they seem to have literally no rule or basis for what should be considered canon in the first place, which is why evidence of something being canon is as basic as "it's an adaptation" or "they wrote a history article", and then most of the stronger evidence is "they made a reference". The former two makeup more than half of the blog and are debunked just by the nature of their argument. The latter has been refuted several times by me alone, not to mention many other staff/commenters, and that's the rest of the blog.

@DarkDragonMedeus @GyroNutz

Do either of you reevaluate your previous expressed views here after reading Ayewale's quoted post above? It would be better if we get a clear consensus here.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with Executor N0's last post.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Executor N0's last post.

Thank you for the reply, but I don't think that Executor's last post seemed to go into his view about this suggested revision as a whole.

I used that because it's what I have to work with, in this case, I used the term how it's named in Digimon Adventure 02 Documentation and similar material, which is what I have to work from. And the reason why I use those terms is that by making use of said terminology I'm able to put the importance over the nuance of those terms outside of how they are understood in the west most of the time, such as in this thread. With Digimon in particular when some material is translated without such nuance (Such as calling a material canon/non-canon while the original quote was much more nuanced) leads to a lot of problems that I need to deal with constantly (Such as Survive's current understanding because of a single interview that decided to translate Habu's commentary of Survive's Gaiden-like status in a certain way).

So if I have to deal with this subject by using Japanese terms to go outside of the automatic understanding, I prefer to do that. It doesn't help that the material I go with also puts the Japanese understanding of the worldview and setting as different and much more nuanced from how the west uses that, even if I personally also think that it's more nuanced than that vague division between west and east.

So yes, isn't much different from what there's here in the west, but the automatic understanding of it isn't in line to what I normally see when I go for interviews about the subject (Such as all the Digimon interviews and livestreams that I looked into in order to prepare the upcoming revision.

Anyway, this subject is already outside of the current status of this thread, so if you want to discuss more of this I think we shouldn't discuss that here.

 

[Sniper670]

There's no reason to keep waiting. It's clear they'll not be back.

The question about whether the verse is shared canon/multiverse was answered by Masuda himself. Which he confirmed theyre parallel worlds

I think this revision is done and there's no reason to wait for them anymore

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I suppose that this suggested revision seems to have been accepted then.

 

[Pikaman]

Should we close the thread then?

 

[Bobsican]

Shouldn't we first do a CRT to start applying it? BTW, keep in mind that from what I'm looking some of the most notable supporters have left after this, so doing the revisions may be difficult.

 

[Agnaa]

I guess create the application CRT, link it here, then close this one.

 

[Pikaman]

some of the most notable supporters have left after this

Pokémon really got Mario’d huh

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I suppose that this suggested revision seems to have been accepted then.

Shouldn't we first do a CRT to start applying it? BTW, keep in mind that from what I'm looking some of the most notable supporters have left after this, so doing the revisions may be difficult.

I guess create the application CRT, link it here, then close this one.

@Ayewale

Would you (and other knowledgeable members you know) be willing to organise a thread for applying this revision, as it has finally been accepted now?

 

[Ayewale]

Ah, it's been accepted? Wonderful. I will try to make a summary of the arguments here later in a blog so that future people can reference it before asking "we should fuse the pokemon canons".

Organizing a thread to make the revisions sounds like a good thing to do. I have an idea for how we should approach things. It'll take a lot of work but I have a plan, at least.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out. Linking to your upcoming official explanation page regarding this topic in our Pokemon verse page seems like a good idea then.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, we need to evaluate whether or not Arceus and the creation trio should scale from all Pokemon canons combined.

 

[Sniper670]

Hmmph, I thought we went through that several times already . They wouldn't be affected.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree, but Ayewale might disagree, and needs to incorporate the information into his new blog post in either case.

 

[Pikaman]

I agree, but Ayewale might disagree, and needs to incorporate the information into his new blog post in either case.

Would this not be better suited for the application thread that is on the way?

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose so, yes. Never mind then.

 

[Sniper670]

Rob Letterman Interview Detective Pikachu

Screen Rant talks to Pokémon: Detective Pikachu director Rob Letterman about building a new live-action world - and some of the film's twists.

wechoiceblogger.com

Supporting evidence that Pokémon indeed works in a shared Multiverse /Canon during a recent Pokémon Detective Pikachu interview

Q: On a similar note, would you be able to comment on whether Ash or Red exists in this world?

A: We haven’t thought through where we land in the overall timeline of the Pokémon universe, but we’re connected in one big universe. We didn’t work out where in time we are, because this is just the first entrée into exploring the world of Pokémon in live action.

This literally connected Anime, Games and Detective Pikachu being in one big world

 

[Ayewale]

Rob Letterman Interview Detective Pikachu

Screen Rant talks to Pokémon: Detective Pikachu director Rob Letterman about building a new live-action world - and some of the film's twists.

wechoiceblogger.com

Supporting evidence that Pokémon indeed works in a shared Multiverse /Canon during a recent Pokémon Detective Pikachu interview




This literally connected Anime, Games and Detective Pikachu being in one big world

Yeah man I already agreed that they share a multiverse. I'll take that in as supporting information though.

For now I think I agree with Arceus being composited. There isn't a lot of evidence for it strictly speaking but there isn't any against it and it seems like a fairly reasonable conclusion.

 

[Antvasima]

So when do you think that you will have your new Pokémon revision thread ready, and should we close this one in the meantime?

 

[Ayewale]

Likely 4-5 days from now. I am putting together a blog for guidelines as we speak. Only thing in the way is some rather big family stuff but thankfully it's not too dramatic.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is good then.

Post a link to your new revision thread here after you have finished, so I can close this one afterwards, please.

 

[TheGreatMaster12]

So this thread was accepted at the end? Sweet, now we should wait for Ayewale to make his proposals.

 

[Ayewale]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Ayewale/Pokemon_Split_Canons_&_New_Standards An attempt to create a summary of what should happen next in regards to all current and future profiles. Not the longest read but that's the point; I wouldn't want people to go through a tome everytime they have a question.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/gotta-revise-em-all-part-2-getting-to-work.141369/ Part Deux, as requested.

You can lock up this legendary thread now btw. Big W

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Rad

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you to everybody who helped out here.