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Gotta Revise 'Em All, Part 1: Splitting the Pokemon Canons (Massive Pokemon CRT)

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Yes, of course it is outside the scope of this thread, but I still needed to debunk the notion that we should delete well-crafted verses just because the supporters leave.

Now please stop spamming everywhere you go. I am way too overworked to constantly deal with you.
 
Oh, my post was a reply to this, sorry

Yemma670 said:
Digiverse is more dead than my great grandma
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In any case, even if a ton of stuff is cited and all, most Digimon pages would be effectively composited for our purposes, which we wouldn't allow for the same reason this thread is getting a pass to begin with, and so they'd have to be deleted if we can't expect a group to separate them.

In any case that deserves its own thread.
 
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StrymULTRA said:
Yeah. No. A massive, *******, NO.

I'll get in the next 2 days an answer to this, but this is completely stupid and ignores tons of stuff and other info which connects all the 3 main medias.
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Guys we all forgot about Strym...

we shouldn’t make any approval of this thread official or anything like that yet, they’ve been heavily involved in the last few major Pokémon CRTs especially and they’re a valuable contributor to the verse, they should get a say (at least as long as they don’t take more than the 2 day deadline they seem to have imposed on themselves in a major fashion that halts the progress of the revision)
 
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Pikaman said:
I will note since Kukui seems to be looking to change the typing standards we have for Pokémon in an upcoming CRT, which would at the least null the credibility of some supporting evidence I brought up in the thread, we should probably at least wait until that CRT is concluded before moving to part 2 of the CRT

Granted, I (with all due respect to Kukui’s opinion on the matter) can’t at the moment imagine their proposed changes gaining much traction given the heavy amount of rather recent staff opinion that lead to the creation of our current standards, so assuming Kukui is quick with making the CRT (they themselves mentioned making it “ASAP”) then it might not be much of an issue
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if you are referring to flying types and ground types
Lou_change said:
Here is the grounded status
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it seems to explain that yes the flying type's resistance to ground types is dumb
 
Lou_change said:
if you are referring to flying types and ground types

it seems to explain that yes the flying type's resistance to ground types is dumb
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“Grounded” in this case can’t genuinely imply that being on the ground = affected by ground type moves regardless of typing, there’s numerous contradictions to that. Even on that page it’s stated for the purposes of the status all flying type Pokémon, regardless of actually being “grounded” or not, are not listed as such. It is probably just a case of bad naming rather than an actual statement implying something that contradicts itself in no time flat

Edit: Actually the Bulbapedia page itself states it’s a fan designated name as no official name exists, yeah this isn’t grounds for claiming what it’s been used to claim (e.g. Flying type resistance/immunity to Ground is Game Mechanics)
 
Pikaman said:
Guys we all forgot about Strym...

we shouldn’t make any approval of this thread official or anything like that yet, they’ve been heavily involved in the last few major Pokémon CRTs especially and they’re a valuable contributor to the verse, they should get a say (at least as long as they don’t take more than the 2 day deadline they seem to have imposed on themselves in a major fashion that halts the progress of the revision)
Click to expand...
What do other staff members here think? If Strym is a highly knowledgeable member, it is probably worthwhile to listen to him.
 
Bobsican said:
Oh, my post was a reply to this, sorry



In any case, even if a ton of stuff is cited and all, most Digimon pages would be effectively composited for our purposes, which we wouldn't allow for the same reason this thread is getting a pass to begin with, and so they'd have to be deleted if we can't expect a group to separate them.

In any case that deserves its own thread.
Click to expand...
Yeah that deserves it's own stuff. I know literally next to nothing about Digimon apart from the theme song and the fact that some monsters look like skeletons, but if it allgedly works by the same standard as Pokemon, it should get separated too, but don't quote me on that.

I'm fine with waiting for Strym's take on things, everyone should get in a say as this is a big revision. I just hope he's cordial.
 
So I take it based on the OP, there's be no cross scaling at all in any fashion between the mediums? (i.e. game stuff only for games and anime stuff only for anime)
 
agree with OP. Good job on the crt and your respectful nature on the thread despite others not being so corteous 👌
 
Hasty12345 said:
So I take it based on the OP, there's be no cross scaling at all in any fashion between the mediums? (i.e. game stuff only for games and anime stuff only for anime)
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Generally yes. Due to Executor's posts I am willing to allow us to assume certain details between canons can be used between each other every once in a while, because the wiki allows this for other verses too.
 
One concern I have is that the Pokedex refers to the entire species of a Pokémon. Specific feats are an individual thing, but the Pokedex can probably be at least kept for the species as a whole.

For the issue of a perched flying type, there is the issue that several Pokémon are grounded in one generation's sprite then flying in others. Given that the sprite is representing a mid-battle creature as either a picture or a moving model that can't leave a specific part of the field, it seems pretty clear that the sprites aren't completely accurate.
 
Random-Helper323 said:
One concern I have is that the Pokedex refers to the entire species of a Pokémon. Specific feats are an individual thing, but the Pokedex can probably be at least kept for the species as a whole.

For the issue of a perched flying type, there is the issue that several Pokémon are grounded in one generation's sprite then flying in others. Given that the sprite is representing a mid-battle creature as either a picture or a moving model that can't leave a specific part of the field, it seems pretty clear that the sprites aren't completely accurate.
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Honestly for the sake of not derailing the thread I'll probably answer the questions on pokemon sprites/typing stuff later. As for the Pokedex, it's kind of complicated. The anime literally quotes the game's pokedex word for word for every Pokemon (it uses the most recent pokedex entry for any given Pokemon) so of course it should be used for both. The manga does so as well. There are probably some nuances but those shall be on a case by case basis.
 
 
Ayewale said:
Honestly for the sake of not derailing the thread I'll probably answer the questions on pokemon sprites/typing stuff later. As for the Pokedex, it's kind of complicated. The anime literally quotes the game's pokedex word for word for every Pokemon (it uses the most recent pokedex entry for any given Pokemon) so of course it should be used for both. The manga does so as well. There are probably some nuances but those shall be on a case by case basis.
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Hop agrees, most versions of the Pokedex are like in-verse WoG, unless feats prove otherwise. Its at the very least, a good baseline for lore/feats/stats.
 
Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer said:
Hop agrees, most versions of the Pokedex are like in-verse WoG, unless feats prove otherwise. Its at the very least, a good baseline for lore/feats/stats.
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My chief concern is that all the anime and manga feats come not from the whole species but from specific Pokémon. If Ash's Pikachu knocks out Regigigas for example, we can't say all Pikachu now scale to Regigigas. In short, judging the whole species by feats from anime and games alone would result in lots of unknown tiers, or poorly substantiated ones. I'm not so much against dividing timelines, but species whose power is outlined in the Pokedex might not need it.
 
Random-Helper323 said:
My chief concern is that all the anime and manga feats come not from the whole species but from specific Pokémon.
Click to expand...
Yes?
They're still a part of a species.
Random-Helper323 said:
If Ash's Pikachu knocks out Regigigas for example, we can't say all Pikachu now scale to Regigigas. In short, judging the whole species by feats from anime and games alone would result in lots of unknown tiers, or poorly substantiated ones.
Click to expand...
Ash's Pikachu has his own page due to how his plot armor works.

A bulbasaur is a bulbasaur. Catching one doesn't magically make it deviate from what it's species is capable of. Nor will it learn anything the species can't. It's why a Pokedex exist, to index these things

On vsbw, it's under the assumption the Pokémon is at max best condition. So I see no problem with this
 
Ayewale said:
"They're all universally the same creatures with different abilties so they should be cross-scaled."
"Just because they're the same creature doesn't mean they should be cross-scaled."
Click to expand...
Actually, it does. And I don't even have to continue saying this because when looking this up, the site even outright says we are allowed to cross-scale species as an acceptable practice within our standards that isn't considered compositing.

  • Profiles for entire species may be acceptable, if it can be shown that the species in question would potentially be capable of having any and all of its potential characteristics at once. However, these profiles should not include exceedingly extraordinary or underwhelming feats and abilities from notable individuals of a species, and the viability of these profiles are determined on a case-by-case basis.
Ayewale said:
"What about their abilities"
endless examples of differences
dismisses every example "What about their abilities?"

There have been so many differences between canons pointed out in this thread so far and you have dismissed literally all of them as 'multiverse, duh', while saying that they should be cross-scaled due to their similarity. You can't both say that they should share canons due to being extremely similar and that they can also be extremely different, like...huh?
Click to expand...
You mean the same verse which canonically acknowledges the existence of pokemon having, both at the same time, different abilities in different universes? Such as Mega Evolution?

Regardless, all of these "differences", when half of them have absolutely nothing to do with canonicity and are irrelevant in this regard, doesn't mean they cannot and don't get explained by the fact that they take place across different worlds. All your proving at best is that they don't happen in the same literal setting which....is something we never argued for.
Pikaman said:
Armor has already shown proof that them being a species is in every way irrelevant to wiki standards
Click to expand...
See above, because those same standards literally confirm the exact opposite. The rules allow species scaling like this

So yes, it's absolutely relevant.
 
At this point, I don't care about obscure mediums being prevented from cross scaled over if you want to remove those. Like I said before, I don't agree on every medium in this franchise being apart of the same multiverse.

But the manga, anime and games should 1000% remain as the same shared canon. I've reiterated 100 times in this thread that the games and anime are confirmed to be parallel worlds to each other instead of separate canons, and as most people in this thread probably didn't even know, species scaling isn't considered compositing here and is an accepted practice. The wikia rules even state this.

Disallowing cross scaling between those is straight up bullshit.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Profiles for entire species may be acceptable, if it can be shown that the species in question would potentially be capable of having any and all of its potential characteristics at once. However, these profiles should not include exceedingly extraordinary or underwhelming feats and abilities from notable individuals of a species, and the viability of these profiles are determined on a case-by-case basis.
Click to expand...

We’ve already shown numerous differences between mediums, a significant amount of legendaries scale to crazy feats from the manga, and it says they have to be approved on a case by case basis, and given the staff vote here, they’ve decided a split is in order.
 
Pikaman said:
We’ve already shown numerous differences between mediums, a significant amount of legendaries scale to crazy feats from the manga, and it says they have to be approved on a case by case basis, and given the staff vote here, they’ve decided a split is in order.
Click to expand...
Because there isn't any difference?

Legendaries are legendary because of crazy feats.

Contradictions are irrelevant here. There's a universe with Megas and one without it, both equally canon. That throws the entire argument about contradictions out the window
 
Pikaman said:
We’ve already shown numerous differences between mediums,
Click to expand...
And all of those "differences" mean nothing because, ahem

-A bunch of them are about the human characters; congratulations, you disproved cross scaling humans, something we never did in the damn first place

-Characters from different canons supposedly not existing in other mediums, which the OP straight up lied about, because they do

-Different variations of moves, which some of that isn't even true to begin with, have nothing to do with canon and is abusing game mechanics to an incredible degree in order to argue this

-Cosmology is supposedly different because....yeah why?

And oh yeah, the verse canonically acknowledging the existence of worlds and things similar and different to one another, like Mega Evolution

None of these numerous differences debunked the fact that Pokemon species are universally the same across these mediums, you haven't provided one shred of evidence about one medium giving a species something another medium hasn't.
Pikaman said:
a significant amount of legendaries scale to crazy feats from the manga,
Click to expand...
The said manga that doesn't treat their depiction remotely differently than the games or anime. Hell, the manga is literally the games in manga form lmao.
Pikaman said:
and it says they have to be approved on a case by case basis, and given the staff vote here, they’ve decided a split is in order.
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Popular vote =/= this case is wrong.

And when some of these staff members have openly admitted to not being knowledgeable on Pokemon (cough cough Colonel K, cough cough), the fact their votes are getting used as some damn form of authority just screams bias.
 
@ProfessorKukui4Life It sucks to have you say "These are the only differences that were mentioned, and none of them matter" without including the differences I brought up for average Pokemon in the PMD games.
 
Agnaa said:
@ProfessorKukui4Life It sucks to have you say "These are the only differences that were mentioned, and none of them matter" without including the differences I brought up for average Pokemon in the PMD games.
Click to expand...
My latest response is mainly for the manga, anime and games. I said already that things from obscure sources like spin offs I don't have a problem with excluding.

Besides, I agreed with you on the take for MD being an issue.
 
Oh, I thought "the games" would've included PMD, especially since it is a pretty mainstream series.

Alright then.
 
Give them their own profiles/keys, for significant enough characters.
 
Plus don't scale their feats to the main profiles.
 
I advocate for PMD being acceptable to be cross scaled, what I disagreed with using was taking the items in PMD and allowing them to be used in the main profiles, unless we make an additional key for those specifically.

Feats from MD Pokemon should be fine to use as long as they aren't coming from a member of a species that is noted to be particularly more powerful than your average pokemon.
 
If all pokemon in it are known to have different capabilities in some areas, why would we cross-scale them at all? That isn't how we usually treat cross-scaling.
 
Allright, I'm finally home, and this means I can reply to this abomination of a CRT.

I'll tell first my ideas of what the profiles should be, then addess this stuff.

An issue I have with current Pokémon profiles is the following:

All of our Pokémon species profiles assume the Pokémon is wild, Level 100 with perfect IVs, and know every possible move and skill without being trained.
Click to expand...

This is straight up bs. The current profiles assume that the average Pokémon has even egg moves, which, whoever knows a bit about competitive, knows that is impossible to get from a wild Pokémon, as those moves can be get only from really specific breeds. Not to mention that:
  • Most of the AP feats are got through feats of trained Pokémon. As an example, all the Stage 1 Pokémon are 7-B from scaling from Dragonair, however, said feat is literally performed from Lance's Dragonair, which is obviously trained and waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond the average Dragonair you find in the wild. This is an issue which you find in almost every single calculation regarding the Pokémon verse, almost all of them are done from trained Pokémon. These feats shouldn't be representaive of the whole species, given that we saw that a Base Pokémon can defeat a fully evolved Pokémon of the same evolution line with the right training, and multiple times, in fact. Another example is basically that all the speed feats calculated (except Golem's given that it can do said feat even right after its capture without any training) were done from trained ones, and not wild ones. So a good idea would to get all the feats/statements regarding just wild Pokémon without taking feats made from Pokémon which are under training (unless is explicit that said Pokémon never got a training since capture, making it equal to a wild version of it), to make the profiles of a Pokémon a true average and not a shitty composite with all the dumb high ends lol.
  • Because of this mentality, trainers scaling from Legendaries is completely discarded as the Pokémon we have in this wiki are all capped with the highest possible end we have got from this fake average. Trainers literally power-up through the plot and are able to compete with Legendaries, but instead of acknowledging this scaling, we instead scream "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO IS OUTLIER/PIS/INCONSISTENCY ONLY THE LEGENDARIES CAN BE THAT STRONG" because the non-legendaries have this arbitrary cap which prevents them from being that powerful. This is a reason why the non-legendary profiles are legit garbage. An idea of mine would simply to get the feats done from just wild Pokémon for the regular mon you find in the wild, and get the high-end feats the trained Pokémon have under the most skilled trainers for the Trainers' profile. So the wiki makes clear the gap between a random wild Pokémon and a Pokémon powered through training.

About the reasons why I agree with the cross-scaling, I'd like to first make YOU ALL READ THE FOLLOWING BLOG. IS NOT FROM EXECUTORN0, but from an off-site source which tells all the possible links between the various medias. Before addressing my points, you all should read this blog, otherwise is literally just ignoring really important points for the sake of your views. If you don't read this, the counter-point is essentially null.

Not to mention that:
About Manga:
  • Pokémon Adventures Manga is a thing in the official website as shown in the blog I've linked, meaning that it has the same relevance as anime and games.
    • Pokémon manga follows 100% the rules of the original world, with Nintendo and Satoshi himself recognizing it as a fundamental aspect of the Pokémon world. This wiki's strict rules are something that prevents almost all the users to see it, but if the authors of the original work recognize the mangas as something which reflects completely their POV, and is supported in their official website, showing it as a material on par with games/anime (this being one of the most important examples we can see there, which is even updated), then it has the same relevance as the Movie Pokémon released in the giveaways. The Pokémon world is not something that can be saw entirely in just one media, but needs multiple ones to be seen in 100%, and the authors know that the manga is the way to see the Pokémon world's lore in a closer way than Games and Anime allow, in the same way the Games allow to see the Pokémon world in a way the other two medias can't and so on.
Given that Games, Anime and Manga are essentially the same crap, we can perfectly assume that all of them can cross-scale about wild non-legends. Wild Legendaries too (and I mean WILD, not the ones owned from trainers), given that in all the medias the capabilities are the same (Kyogre can flood the world, Dialga can manipulate time, Deoxys is an alien which can change forms, etc).

So the things which should cross-scale in short are:
  • Main anime series + related movies + adaptations of it through mangas/novels.
  • Pokémon Origins/Generations/Evolution/whatever series is released on the official YT channel.
  • Main Core Games.
  • Pokémon Adventures Manga.
  • Pokémon Ranger series.
  • TCG.
Crossover Games like Pokémon Conquest shouldn't be allowed obviously, same with obscure-ass mangas like RéBURST or that one with the talking Clefairy which I don't remember how is called. Mystery Dungeon Series shouldn't either, it has its own way to interpret Pokémon which is MUUUUUUUUUCH different from the Adventures Manga, and just doesn't fit unlike the 6 sources I told above.

The 6 sources are only for Wild Pokémon obviously. OP made a pretty good job about telling the differences between the trainers, so each important trainer should get at least 3 profiles for each media they appear in. For example Red has many profiles, and that is good, but Lance's profile is based on just the games, without counting for example that in the manga he's a completely different character both in capabilities and goals.

Not reading all of this of course, I am an human being after all, but I think this wall of text should help about how Pokémon should be handled on this site.
 
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Strym's point that most feats all random Pokemon scale to are performed by trained Pokemon is very concerning, and should be rectified.

I don't find the blogs Strym linked very convincing. References and similarities are much less significant evidence than contradictions.
 
Agnaa said:
I don't find the blogs Strym linked very convincing. References and similarities are much less significant evidence than contradictions.
Click to expand...
I don't see how references to the point where the actual characters from between mediums, mediums in which have author confirmation of being connected, existing within each other are less significant.
 
Agnaa said:
I don't find the blogs Strym linked very convincing. References and similarities are much less significant evidence than contradictions.
Click to expand...
These are not just that lol. Is literally the same shit, as even said in explicit descriptions.
 
Just a preliminary response to this, but from what I've seen so far I agree for the most part with Kukui's arguments.

A blanket statement claiming everything is canon is not the reason why Pokemon was "composited" in the first place. It comes from an array of statements and showings linking the anime, manga, movies, spin-offs etc to the games. I find it misleading that this is the primary point.

Conquest has been an issue for a while imo but Pokken is a crossover in name only. Everything story and character related is 100% Pokemon.

I may have misunderstood this point, but there is significant evidence that the other media are alternative universes, between link cables, event Pokemon and word of god statements, which should be already readily available on the verse page.

There already is evidence of individual side games being canon. I'm not sure why this is an issue - perhaps this is a response to Executor's "world view" blog, but he already outlines the consistency of how Pokemon is portrayed in each installment. If you have any general differences in their overall portrayal, please point them out.

People should be treated differently from game to game, but our main profiles involve species - individual differences are averaged out.

"Immunities" are a thing in the anime? Sure there are things like Pikachu "aiming for the horn" but that only exists because Rhydon would be immune to electric attacks anyway. Full immunities are game mechanics anyway. Deoxys' character doesn't differ from each medium, in all cases he's a predatory alien originating from a meteor from outer space. What you're talking about is his abilities - Deoxys can use clones and telepathy in Mystery Dungeon for what it's worth, it learns Recover in the games and the Pokemon Generations, which is a portrayal of characters from the main games, shows its regenerative abilities also. Also worth pointing out that this and the whole 'destroying the world' thing aren't actual contradictions.

Pokedex entries don't contradict themselves afaik, it's simply a result of different professors in each universe making observations of Pokemon - each entry is definitely not exhaustive and isn't meant to be. Different entries are referred to in different games - Sun and Moon reference Bronzong's ability to open portals to different worlds from the pokedex but Bronzong doesn't even have a dex entry in that game.

Most of this can be explained by the whole different universes shtick. And I'm pretty sure that Giovanni does basically the same thing in LGPE as he does in the original games (also LGPE is core series).

I think a lot of issues here come from an overstatement of the inconsistencies there are and how significant they actually are in contradicting the established canon. There are some valid points here, but I disagree with the main message of the thread.
 
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