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Gotta Revise 'Em All, Part 1: Splitting the Pokemon Canons (Massive Pokemon CRT)

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It's not just that, but that was a decent chunk of it. Another decent chunk of it was just the characters having all their appearances discussed in the same article. It's hard to summarise 60 points quickly; no matter how many specifics I list you could always get annoyed that I didn't mention another specific thing, but I've looked at it and don't find it super convincing.
 
Agnaa said:
It's not just that, but that was a decent chunk of it. Another decent chunk of it was just the characters having all their appearances discussed in the same article. It's hard to summarise 60 points quickly; no matter how many specifics I list you could always get annoyed that I didn't mention another specific thing, but I've looked at it and don't find it super convincing.
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Dude, you have to tell why, not just "I don't like it so is debunked" lol.

Literally everything points on these Pokémon being the same character across mediums, Team Rocket Trio is the same across Core Games/Anime and so on.

You're ignoring the Movie Events and Explicit Author POV, and this is something that shouldn't happen.
 
I already said why; I don't find those similarities, references, occasional crossover events, and articles discussing multiple incarnations of the characters to be more significant that the contradictions presented. Although I do admit that it's hard to compare the two, due to them being presented differently in different blogs.
 
I guess that the descriptions about it saying that "is the same one of the TV series" and so on are irrelevant too.

This wiki is very good at ignoring evidence for the sake of being strict for no reason and it shows.
 
The OPs “contradictions” about characters, even if they actually hold, still don’t mean anything towards how we treat the POKÉMON profiles

That is my main gripe with that issue.
 
StrymULTRA said:
I guess that the descriptions about it saying that "is the same one of the TV series" and so on are irrelevant too.
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Could you tell me which exact scan that comes from?

It'd really help if you just directly linked the best pieces of evidence like this, instead of muddling them down with 80 instances of "One article talked about Brock from the anime AND the games IN THE SAME ARTICLE!!!" and "They made the Pokemon Center employees look like Nurse Joy".
 
Oh, you were talking about the Wobuffet, not the characters. My bad for the misunderstanding.

Yeah, that is nice evidence, but idk if it stacks up well against the contradictions pointed out earlier in this thread.

But as I said, it is hard to tell due to the different methods of presentation and levels of depth between the posts for and against this.
 
The only relevant contradictions are for the trainers' characters. Wild Pokémon should be the same across mediums, as nothing contradicts them being the same. Reworking those profiles to fit as an average of the mediums I have listed above should do the job. Trained Pokémon feats are what shouldn't be counted in said cross-scaling, obviously.
 
Red's Eevee being able to change between evolutions at will, significant move differences, and Deoxys being able to change forms at will also seem pertinent to me.
 
StrymULTRA said:
The only relevant contradictions are for the trainers' characters. Wild Pokémon should be the same across mediums, as nothing contradicts them being the same. Reworking those profiles to fit as an average of the mediums I have listed above should do the job. Trained Pokémon feats are what shouldn't be counted in said cross-scaling, obviously.
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To my knowledge, the only Tier 7 feat that was used for wild pokemon tiers was a feat from Dawn's Piplup? When discussing it, it was agreed fine to use because Dawn's Piplup at that point when doing the feat wasn't trained to the point where it was beyond the capabilities of an average one.

That and because Dawn's a coordinator and not a battler like Ash, Dawn doesn't go through a significant amount of battling in the anime to signify her pokemon are in a different league compared to their wild variants.
 
Agnaa said:
Red's Eevee being able to change between evolutions at will, significant move differences, and Deoxys being able to change forms at will also seem pertinent to me.
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Eevee's not really an issue since that's something only Red's eevee specifically does, it's not counted for them all. The OP himself agreed to drop it when I brought this up earlier.

Deoxys changing forms at will in the anime is mainly because, well, Deoxys's is formed by the meteors he comes in. And this could be given the argument of game mechanics since form changing for Pokemon isn't given an option of being done mid battle like the battle gimmicks (Mega Evolution, Dynamax, etc.)
 
Agnaa said:
Red's Eevee being able to change between evolutions at will
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That's literally because he was modified in a lab in order to be able to do so. No Eevee can do that except that one.
Agnaa said:
Deoxys being able to change forms at will also seem pertinent to me.
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That's because the game mechaincs limit Deoxys in order to avoid it being too powerful in gameplay. Arceus in the game couldn't change Types at will in the games unlike the Anime, but later on in Pokémon Legends Arceus, which is even a pre-quel, is confirmed that it can, meaning that is a game mechanic and nothing else. Deoxys is in a similar situation, as anything regarading Deoxys is even in post-game, and isn't even a thing in the plot of the game, meaning that shouldn't have any relevance on what Deoxys can do lore-wise.
 
Not to mention, Pokemon Generations, which is literally animating events from the games, shows Deoxys form changing at will when fighting Mega Rayquaza.

Confirming further that him not changing forms mid battles is a game mechanic.
 
That's literally because he was modified in a lab in order to be able to do so. No Eevee can do that except that one.

Ahh okay, that can be safely culled from consideration then.

That's because the game mechaincs limit Deoxys in order to avoid it being too powerful across medias. Arceus in the game couldn't change Types at will in the games unlike the Anime, but later on in Pokémon Legends Arceus, which is even a pre-quel, is confirmed that it can, meaning that is a game mechanic and nothing else. Deoxys is in a similar situation, as anything regarading Deoxys is even in post-game, and isn't even a thing in the plot of the game, meaning that shouldn't have any relevance on what Deoxys can do lore-wise.

My concern isn't that it can't be done mid-battle or something, it's that it requires Deoxys to be brought to specific locations, which isn't really something I think could be waved away as being for balance reasons, and it does make a significant difference in Deoxys in other mediums can do that anywhere.
 
Agnaa said:
it's that it requires Deoxys to be brought to specific locations
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Happens in just in a part of the game which is way after the main plot was completed and was never mentioned in-lore to be a way to do so. Same with Arceus' way to change types, is the same situation. Don't bring a non-canon method, because obviously Deoxys couldn't for balance reasons, and Arceus too. Arceus was able to change types mid-fight only in Legends Arceus because battle method was different than the other games, so Arceus could do that without being too broken for the game.
 
As I said, it's not about it only being possible outside of fights, it's about it requiring a specific location. If it could be done with an item, or just in the Pokemon menu but not in battle, I wouldn't consider it a contradiction.
 
Agnaa said:
As I said, it's not about it only being possible outside of fights, it's about it requiring a specific location. If it could be done with an item, or just in the Pokemon menu but not in battle, I wouldn't consider it a contradiction.
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Said item is a piece of Deoxys' meteor which he used to fall on the Earth. It can't be taken away from the Player as is exposed in museums across the games, but is the same as Creation Trio changing forms using the Orbs which are in the bag.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
None of these numerous differences debunked the fact that Pokemon species are universally the same across these mediums, you haven't provided one shred of evidence about one medium giving a species something another medium hasn't.
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In the Anime a flying type Pokémon can still be hit by ground type moves if it’s planted on the ground, similarly positioned and typed Pokémon do not have this issue in the game. Our current standards do not treat flying type Pokémon’s relatively unconditional resistance to ground as game mechanics. Until you manage to change those standards, that’s a case of typing, a fundamental and basic concept of Pokémon, acting differently between mediums
 
Pikaman said:
In the Anime a flying type Pokémon can still be hit by ground type moves if it’s planted on the ground, similarly positioned and typed Pokémon do not have this issue in the game. Our current standards do not treat flying type Pokémon’s relatively unconditional resistance to ground as game mechanics. Until you manage to change those standards, that’s a case of typing, a fundamental and basic concept of Pokémon, acting differently between mediums
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If we play like this in the games literally ghosts like Ghastly and Yamask can be hurt from regular hail, and obviously this is dumb.

Either you agree that certain stuff about typing (like Intangibility not being something of every Ghost type in existence) is game mechanics or you just use metal gymnastics to explain that.
 
Pikaman said:
In the Anime a flying type Pokémon can still be hit by ground type moves if it’s planted on the ground, similarly positioned and typed Pokémon do not have this issue in the game. Our current standards do not treat flying type Pokémon’s relatively unconditional resistance to ground as game mechanics. Until you manage to change those standards, that’s a case of typing, a fundamental and basic concept of Pokémon, acting differently between mediums
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Ah yes, thanks for reminding me to post my thread to get rid of flying pokemon's resistance here. Soon that'll be thankfully nuked.
 
Ayewale said:
Can I post a reply later today? I’m busy with university. I want to defend my ‘abomination’ of a CRT, because disagreeing with me and being polite is impossible I guess
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Take your time (and I don’t mean this sarcastically, I’m serious in not wanting this thread rushed and I have work late too so)
 
StrymULTRA said:
If we play like this in the games literally ghosts like Ghastly and Yamask can be hurt from regular hail, and obviously this is dumb.

Either you agree that certain stuff about typing (like Intangibility not being something of every Ghost type in existence) is game mechanics or you just use metal gymnastics to explain that.
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For the record, the second part of these CRTs was going to address the really wacky standards Pokemon has on what does and doesn’t count as ‘game mechanics’. It’s extremely inconsistent and needs reworking.
 
This is getting confusing...

So, Part 1 of this CRT seems to be on the verge (As it stands) of being accepted, but a CRT claiming game mechanics on something we don’t currently treat as game mechanics has been made which could swing people the other way, BUT the as yet Part 2 of this CRT ALSO looks to challenge what is considered game mechanics in-verse

It seems like Part One is (at least partially) reliant on Kukui’s CRT not passing which itself is reliant on Part 2 not passing by the sounds of it

Should we wait for Part 2 to be evaluated and then come back to Kukui’s CRT, and THEN Part 1?
 
I'd like to say that the reason why 2nd stages scale from Dragonair is because it actually ain't lances. At least it wasn't lances at that point. He met it the moment he saw it and mind haxed it. It was trained before but to an unknown extent and likely for surfing. Additionally, only pokedex holders can cancel evolution in the manga, and considering the manga has levels it means that the unevolved dragonair is below lvl 64 which is the time when it evolves into dragonite. This means that it scales below a lvl 100 dragonair which we use in fights. Please don't misinform people.
 
That still sounds wack as hell. "Okay sure a trainer had it, and it was trained, but someone else trained it and it was low level...."
 
Additionally we have a >2c speed feat from a captured but untrained pokemon that hasn't been applied yet.

One High 7-A feat was done by by a trained non fully evolved mon and the other is a baseline Tyranitar feat coming from the pokedex
 
Agnaa said:
That still sounds wack as hell. "Okay sure a trainer had it, and it was trained, but someone else trained it and it was low level...."
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It isn't even said to be trained for combat, it was literally the prize of a surfing competition specifically. Lance never trained it before it performed the feat and so in short it was a low level dragonair perofrming the feat. It fits and i see no issue with the scaling unless you wanna act like XXKing and say that every pokemon with like a single interaction with a trainer is suddenly 19372928482832x stronger than a wild mon despite the fact that trained mons often fight wild pokemon on comparable terms.
 
Arceus0x said:
This means that it scales below a lvl 100 dragonair which we use in fights. Please don't misinform people.
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What about we just get rid of this dumb "LV 100 perfect Pokémon" thing hm? Is essentially a composite and this wiki is against that. My whole point is to make the wild Pokémon pages simply the average, with feats got without the help of any trainer. The fact it was trained from Lance still means is above the regular Dragonair, and we can't use it for the average one. I already told the reason why this "LV 100 perfect Pokémon" for profiles must be removed.
 
It won't change anything at all unfortunately.


Even if we assume it's level 10, the feats are still there to scale off of. It won't change nothing
 
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