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Gotta Revise 'Em All, Part 1: Splitting the Pokemon Canons (Massive Pokemon CRT)

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Okay, so to summarize why I disagree with splitting the pokemon pages, it all has to so with most of our pages being species pages, not character pages. This may be a little long, but it's necessary to explain properly.

What do I mean by species page? Rather than indexing the capabilities of a specific character, a species page indexes everything that the entire given species is naturally capable of doing generally speaking, without including what specific characters of that species can do. They detail and cover a whole species instead of an explicit character. That's what the Pokemon pages, besides characters like humans or specific pokemon, do this for the most part. They cover the entirety of a whole given pokemon species and index it on the page.

For example, Pikachu. Our Pikachu page indexes the capabilities of the entire Pikachu species. So things that any wild Pikachu does, things that aren't outside of a pikachu's natural capabilities, would be put on the page. The big problem I have with this argument on splitting the pages, such as Pikachu's, is that species pages are not actual composite pages. Compositing a page means taking the capabilities of whole different characters and putting them together as one, like compositing Goku across different mediums, or Superman across different mediums, which is something we obviously ban and don't do here. But a species page is different from what this standard covers.

The purposes of a species page isn't to index one single version of that species, but all of them. So if we use Pikachu as an example, the Pikachu page isn't indexing one single Pikachu. It's indexing ALL Pikachu of their given species. Everything that every member of the wild species is capable of doing. That's why the species page gets everything because it covers all they could possibly perform, and in Pokemon, there is no variation or different depictions of a pokemon species across each of their mediums. This may look like a composite page, but it's not a real composite underneath, because different characters are not being pulled from different mediums and being put on the same page.

Pokemon that are considered their own characters, with their own unique abilities, don't get things from the species page. An example would be Ash Ketchums Pikachu. This Pikachu is a particular character. It's not just any random Pikachu, but one that has a specific array of abilities that a normal Pikachu can't achieve, hence why it has it's own separate page that doesn't get cross scaling to the Pikachu species page.

Pokemon isn't the only example either. Digimon is another series that does the same thing with their pages that "look" composited, but are not. Just like Pokemon, Digimon pages cover the entirety of what a specific Digimon species can do, and Digimon who are treated as their own characters get their own separate pages. Like the Agumon species being a separate page from three different Agumon that are considered three different characters.

This is something most of our Pokemon pages do, and because of that, splitting them into different mediums makes no sense and is something im strongly against doing.
All of that just shows Pokémon are species profiles. Nobody is debating that, we’re debating the fact our standards for splitting the way that has been proposed here do indeed apply to species profiles anyways, we have precedent for this such as Kryptonians, and arguments that Pokémon as a species and Kryptonians as a species have some kind of difference and shouldn’t be treated the same have been debunked thoroughly.
 
But no two Pokémon are the same in the way no two Kryptonians are the same, Kryptonians may have somewhat different appearances, attributes, or personalities, but I’m pretty sure all types of Pokémon tick at least two of those boxes, sometimes all three.
Except that they literally don't do this. I've asked for evidence in this thread like 10 times now on what different attributes a pokemon has across universes, and not a single person in this thread has answered that.

Two pokemon from across universes are literally the same. Their innate capabilities, their appearance, physiology, species information, what moves they can learn, their pokedex species information, even what levels they evolve at. It is all the same in every single universe.

Think of it this way. Would you say a Krpyptonian or a Saiyan is the same thing as like a real world animal? All cheatahs are known to be able to run at the same speeds. You can take cheetah from one universe, get a cheetah from another universe, and compare them. What differences in capabilities are you going to find?
The specific differences are ultimately arbitrary, but the presence of them isn’t. Some Kryptonians are stronger/taller/heavier than others, some Pikachus are as well.
Taller and heavier =/= stronger, because the latter factor is the only thing that ultimately matters for this when this is about indexing feats. And in terms of power and capability, every Pokemon species line is naturally able to replicate what each other does.

Tyranitar as a species is known for being able to **** mountains up. But what universe is there where a Tyranitar isn't capable of doing what it's whole entire species is known to do? Will some wild Tyranitar be a bit stronger than others? Sure. But not to the extent where one wild Tyranitar is so significantly stronger that another Tyranitar couldn't replicate the same feats.
They’re both species with some varying attributes but ultimately share said species. Pokémon shouldn’t really be treated differently to species such as Kryptonians because they’re both... well, species. If species are not immune to these standards then a profile split makes sense. And yeah, the examples showing that these standards do apply to species have made sense with weak counters
All this misconception comes from is thinking things like an alien race of humans, Saiyans or Kryptonians is somehow the same thing as a species of animals. Whether Pokemon, Digimon, real world animals or whatnot.

At best, this is calling for a revision on species in general here.
 
All this misconception comes from is thinking things like an alien race of humans, Saiyans or Kryptonians is somehow the same thing as a species of animals. Whether Pokemon, Digimon, real world animals or whatnot.
Yes, they are...? In the same way humans are a species of animal in the real world, Kryptonians are a species of animal in DC, and Saiyans are a species of animal in Dragon Ball (afaik). The actual misconception here is that sentience somehow disqualifies you from being classed as a species
 
There is no concrete proof a Pikachu from the original games' world can have all the same abilities as a Pikachu from the manga and vice versa (doubly so given certain tutors only exist in specific universes, causing certain profiles to become fully paradoxical)
Except the manga and games are literally no different. Pikachu in every single medium is known as the same creature, a pokemon mouse that manipulates electricity. The movesets of what they can learn is the same, how they evolve is the same, their physiology is the same, their pokedex information is the same as well.

The manga absolutely doesn't give any pokemon some unique variation of powers that the games or anime don't replicate, they all do the same thing. The argument against this is purely headcanon.
 
Except that they literally don't do this. I've asked for evidence in this thread like 10 times now on what different attributes a pokemon has across universes, and not a single person in this thread has answered that.
You're the one who has to prove they don't change bud, it's not the default assumption.
Two pokemon from across universes are literally the same. Their innate capabilities, their appearance, physiology, species information, what moves they can learn, their pokedex species information, even what levels they evolve at. It is all the same in every single universe.
No proof for this.
All this misconception comes from is thinking things like an alien race of humans, Saiyans or Kryptonians is somehow the same thing as a species of animals. Whether Pokemon, Digimon, real world animals or whatnot.
"Alien race of humans"

This is a subjective conception that brings absolutely no effect on this. Humans are not much more genetically varied than most animals IRL, and the differences in power between healthy adult individuals are much smaller than in certain species. This is a complete non-argument.
At best, this is calling for a revision on species in general here.
No, it's calling for a revision on Pokémon. Quit trying to change the standards every time something you don't like happens.
 
Yes, they are...? In the same way humans are a species of animal in the real world, Kryptonians are a species of animal in DC, and Saiyans are a species of animal in Dragon Ball (afaik).
And each of these species don't have the same innate capabilities that members of said species can do. Not every Saiyan is capable of flying or manipulating KI by default. Not every Saiyan is capable of blowing planets up. Not every Saiyan is capable of going Super Saiyan.

These abilities are vary and are not innately avaialble to every member of the same species. Pokemon doesn't do this.
 
And each of these species don't have the same innate capabilities that members of said species can do. Not every Saiyan is capable of flying or manipulating KI by default. Not every Saiyan is capable of blowing planets up. Not every Saiyan is capable of going Super Saiyan.

These abilities are vary and are not innately avaialble to every member of the same species. Pokemon doesn't do this.
Those are gained via specific training, complete mis-representation. Not that specifically proving Saiyans are different would do you much good, general standards are the same and I'd love you try to do the same for Kryptonians anyway.
 
You're the one who has to prove they don't change bud, it's not the default assumption.
And luckily I don't need to when the series already freaking shows this.
No proof for this.
Lmao

Go and catch a Charmander in your game and have a friend catch a charmander in their game and watch them both evolve at the same level or learn the same moves leveling up.
"Alien race of humans"
Where all humans cant do the same thing as each other. Next.
This is a subjective conception that brings absolutely no effect on this. Humans are not much more genetically varied than most animals IRL, and the differences in power between healthy adult individuals are much smaller than in certain species. This is a complete non-argument.
Thank you for acknolweding theres differences, so not much of a non argument.
No, it's calling for a revision on Pokémon. Quit trying to change the standards every time something you don't like happens.
And it calls for a revision on species in general if you're going to pursue this. Quit acting like an ignorant stonewaller when you cant accept that things are blatant double standards or false equivalences like this site is known for doing.
 
Those are gained via specific training, complete mis-representation.
Thanks for restating my point. Those are things not innately avaialble to the entire Saiyan species, Saiyans have to train in order to gain those powers. Each Saiyan being an entirely different person than another.

Pokemon abilities like pokedex information and movepools ARE innately apart of the species, hence why they can learn the same exact moves when leveling up, evolve at the same levels, or you know, all do what the pokedex index's their species line as being capable of doing. Henceforth, no variation.
 
And each of these species don't have the same innate capabilities that members of said species can do. Not every Saiyan is capable of flying or manipulating KI by default. Not every Saiyan is capable of blowing planets up. Not every Saiyan is capable of going Super Saiyan.

These abilities are vary and are not innately avaialble to every member of the same species. Pokemon doesn't do this.
So I guess you're saying that if a species across any media known to have same set of abilities then they all can be done in the same page? Or you are saying that species are species regardless of media or alternate universe, so they don't need to change? In any case if there is no change regardless of media then why it matters if the they get seprate profiles as per different media's or the same, I mean will their scale change? If they then I guess the same abilities can have variation on the level they being used in different media's.
 
And luckily I don't need to when the series already freaking shows this.
And yet, no evidence.
Lmao

Go and catch a Charmander in your game and have a friend catch a charmander in their game and watch them both evolve at the same level or learn the same moves leveling up.
Curious how you keep on focusing on the games, which are the closest ones, and completely ignore manga and abilities. But no, that isn't true anyway given learnsets vary between Gens.
Where all humans cant do the same thing as each other. Next.
Stop making claims about verses you don't know. That is not true about Kryptonians.
Thanks for restating my point. Those are things not innately avaialble to the entire Saiyan species, Saiyans have to train in order to gain those powers. Each Saiyan being an entirely different person than another.

Pokemon abilities like pokedex information and movepools ARE innately apart of the species, hence why they can learn the same exact moves when leveling up, evolve at the same levels, or you know, all do what the pokedex index's their species line as being capable of doing. Henceforth, no variation.

Thank you for acknolweding theres differences, so not much of a non argument.
Opposite of what I said. Start making arguments instead of trying to nitpick. Pokémon have differences too, again IVs and Natures come to mind.
And it calls for a revision on species in general if you're going to pursue this. Quit acting like an ignorant stonewaller when you cant accept that things are blatant double standards or false equivalences like this site is known for doing.
No, you're the one stonewalling, actually. I bring you site standards, you try and ignore them. Won't work.
Thanks for restating my point. Those are things not innately avaialble to the entire Saiyan species, Saiyans have to train in order to gain those powers. Each Saiyan being an entirely different person than another.

Pokemon abilities like pokedex information and movepools ARE innately apart of the species, hence why they can learn the same exact moves when leveling up, evolve at the same levels, or you know, all do what the pokedex index's their species line as being capable of doing. Henceforth, no variation.
... Pokémon train too? Learnsets come from training, tutors exist, and so much else.

Look, you're failing to bring forward any actual points so if you don't mind I'll just avoid letting you waste more of my time and consider the case closed on my end.
 
Kukui, your arguments rely on me being able to go to any form of Pokémon media and grab a Pikachu, go grab another Pikachu through an identical process, and for there to be absolutely no differences in capabilities. That just isn’t the case with Pokémon, there are small but noticeable differences in portrayal between mediums, and most of your counter-arguments I’ve seen on this thread have been arguing game mechanics for any little thing in game that doesn’t carry over to anime/manga, which isn’t the case
 
Then I guess
So I guess you're saying that if a species across any media known to have same set of abilities then they all can be done in the same page? Or you are saying that species are species regardless of media or alternate universe, so they don't need to change?
The former. Which is why splitting them up the first place when they all have the same capabilities makes no sense. Your just making different pages that list things that they can all already do across those mediums.
 
The former. Which is why splitting them up the first place when they all have the same capabilities makes no sense. Your just making different pages that list things that they can all already do across those mediums.
So will it make no difference in scale of each profiles if their profiles got split up as per different media's? I mean will we have just "many" profiles of same species or characters like arecus or any other Pokemon with the same tier?
 
Curious how you keep on focusing on the games, which are the closest ones, and completely ignore manga and abilities.
And the manga doesnt show abilities that the game or anime doesn't already provide. YOU need to show evidence of it doing that if you're going to claim this.
But no, that isn't true anyway given learnsets vary between Gens.
Nice try, but this doesn't counter me. The movesets themselves "varying" (when they don't), doesnt mean that each member of a Pokemon species doesn't have access to the same moves as each other.

That only means the species itself gets a different moveset.
Stop making claims about verses you don't know. That is not true about Kryptonians.
Who are all different characters from each other, which is why they aren't compiled under the same page.
Pokémon have differences too, again IVs and Natures come to mind.
Game mechanics. And even in-game mechanic wise thats not a difference, because any member of the species could get the same nature. It's not impossible for them, which is my point that theres no variation. They all have access to the same stuff and there isn't anything another member of the species can't access.
No, you're the one stonewalling, actually. I bring you site standards, you try and ignore them. Won't work.
And I bring arguments of why the verse's case blatantly doesn't fall under that and you can't counter them. Won't work.
... Pokémon train too? Learnsets come from training, tutors exist, and so much else.
Training that any wild pokemon can do. Tutor moves are a different story that I don't quite thing should go for wild pokemon.

So yeah, you kinda have to expand on the "so much else" part.
Look, you're failing to bring forward any actual points so if you don't mind I'll just avoid letting you waste more of my time and consider the case closed on my end.
Then leave then. No one asked you to come and I frankly don't give a shit if you do or don't. All im seeing is conceding. But you do you. I don't care.
 
So will it make no difference in scale of each profiles if their profiles got split up as per different media's? I mean will we have just "many" profiles of same species or characters like arecus or any other Pokemon with the same tier?
A good chunk of them would be the exact same tier with same abilities
 
We disallow composites (and composites aren't just from different canon, Composite Link was axed just like any other), and we don't allow for alternate universe variations to be scaled to each other with no relevant evidence. There is no concrete proof a Pikachu from the original games' world can have all the same abilities as a Pikachu from the manga and vice versa (doubly so given certain tutors only exist in specific universes, causing certain profiles to become fully paradoxical)

In short our current treatment breaks site standards and should be forbidden for any verse unless special context changes it. Pokémon has no such context.
I personally agree with this, but can somebody write a tally of which staff members that think what here so far please?
 
Kukui, your arguments rely on me being able to go to any form of Pokémon media and grab a Pikachu, go grab another Pikachu through an identical process, and for there to be absolutely no differences in capabilities. That just isn’t the case with Pokémon, there are small but noticeable differences in portrayal between mediums
SUCH AS?

Like, this is literally what im asking about here. What difference in portrayal between the mediums is there?
 
In regards to the abilities in the Pokedex at least, and moves that can be learned, Pokémon abilities seem to be a species-wide thing. Not all feats can be attributed to the whole species or between individuals, as is blatantly evident with Ash's Pikachu, but the basic abilities outlined in the Pokedex should be a species-wide thing. And at least in the case of wild legendaries there shouldn't be too much difference between timelines.

However, at least one Pokémon timeline seems to lack some mechanics like Mega Evolutions, so some distinctions do seem to exist. Given that the games are the primary source material, and contain the Pokedex as an in-game encyclopaedia, which also exists in the anime and manga, I think that should probably be included as a basic piece of all Pokémon abilities. Anime logic in Pokémon is practically a Toonforce situation, with Pikachu alternating between fighting legendaries and being helpless against some unevolved fodder Pokémon. And then there's the weird things like Arceus and the meteor. So consistency is going to be hard to come by.
 
A good chunk of them would be the exact same tier with same abilities
The abilities doesn't really matter much if we talk about same species regardless of kryptonians, saiyans or even same characters can across all media's can have same abilities yet the extent to which those abilities are being used matters, and if there is "almost" then it matters. Also if the tier's got affected then it must be done I guess.
 
The abilities doesn't really matter much if we talk about same species regardless of kryptonians, saiyans or even same characters can across all media's can have same abilities yet the extent to which those abilities are being used matters, and if there is "almost" then it matters. Also if the tier's got affected then it must be done I guess.
I mean you will have hundreds of profiles which are the exact same with just minor tier changes at best (despite being in the same ballpark). It's pointless, considering even some of the same fears appear in the same series.
 
In regards to the abilities in the Pokedex at least, and moves that can be learned, Pokémon abilities are a species-wide thing. Not all feats can be attributed to the whole species or between individuals, as is blatantly evident with Ash's Pikachu, but the basic abilities outlined in the Pokedex should be a species-wide thing. And at least in the case of wild legendaries there shouldn't be too much difference between timelines.
THIS. This is exactly what im talking about here.

Things like the pokedex and movepool are species-wide abilities. But specific things done by things like Ash's Pikachu doesn't get applied to them.

This is literally what i've been trying to explain here for the past several responses.
However, at least one Pokémon timeline seems to lack some mechanics like Mega Evolutions, so some distinctions do seem to exist.
In regards to mega evolution, while it is a distinction between games, the thing about this is that the games canonically acknowledge both timelimes simutaneously existing. It's not even just a parallel world thing where some things are similar and different, the verse itself recognizes both diverging timelines as being equally real.

Since the species page is supposed to outline every single thing a wild pokemon species can naturally do, the species page itself would list Mega Evolution, even though its pretty obvious that not every Mega-evolve capable pokemon species can mega evolve in all universes.
 
I mean you will have hundreds of profiles which are the exact same with just minor tier changes at best (despite being in the same ballpark). It's pointless, considering even some of the same fears appear in the same series.
I guess tier changes aren't minor in the first place even when we talk about just being one tier above the other then it's really a huge thing.
 
SUCH AS?

Like, this is literally what im asking about here. What difference in portrayal between the mediums is there?
Jesus Christ you’d think you hadn’t read this thread
The plots between each verse differ tremendously and vary in ways that make them difficult-to-impossible to equalize.
Many characters would be unable to be equalized to being dramatically different in every incarnation.
The average intellect of Pokemon varies quite a bit in games like the Pokemon Mystery Dungeon.
The 4-move limit (which is acknowledged pretty often by NPCs in battle dialogue and outside it) doesn't exist in other canons
Different moves operate very, very differently depending on the canon.
Type immunities in the anime are much looser than they are in the games (i.e. they can be circumvented and outright ignored in ways that are impossible).
Many characters have different abilities/scaling depending on depending on the canon.
The legendaries in particular vary dramatically from canon to canon: stats, lore, powersets, you name it. Deoxys has about half a dozen powers in his movie that aren't in the games, chief among them being his ability to freely transform mid-battle.
This list is incomplete.

There's an entire list on bulbapedia dedicated to the differences between just the games and anime but those are mostly minor.
As just one example when this question was literally asked earlier. All you’ve done to respond to these is claim Game Mechanics for every little inconsistency between Games and other mediums and then pretend the arguments don’t exist and ask for them again, you’re stonewalling this thread by sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming about how you can’t hear the valid arguments and counter-arguments presented here
 
Jesus Christ you’d think you hadn’t read this thread
Most of those things have absolutely nothing to do with my question on how a species of Pokemon is depicted differently across the mediums. And even then, I debunked all of those things already.

-The plot "differing" means nothing if the canons are connected as parallel universes. Which they are. The games and anime for instance are already confirmed to do that.

-Same thing with the characters, and we even don't cross scale characters anyway. They are separated.

-The 4 move limitation IS a game mechanic however, even in games like Legends Arceus a Pokemon still has access to their whole movepool and can switch in moves to use at any time.

-Moves don't operate differently across canons, they're used based on the Pokemons physiology; even then, this is also game mechanics because the anime and manga are REALISTIC portrayals of battling instead of a turn based battling system

-Type immunities aren't ignored in the anime, this is a straight up lie. Go to any random battle from the anime in this last decade and the type relationships are acknowledged.

-Legendaries lore abilities are exactly the same across mediums, them not being used in games is again, because of game mechanics not making those an option mid battle. You won't see a form change mid battle because the battling system doesn't make this an option. You won't see Dialga or Palkia freely ******* time and space up however they want because that's not an option. Same as Yveltal death haxing you, Kyogre drowning the battlefield, Groduon messing the terrain up. They are not options in game battling, and for incredibly obvious reasons.
 
Yeah. No. A massive, *******, NO.

I'll get in the next 2 days an answer to this, but this is completely stupid and ignores tons of stuff and other info which connects all the 3 main medias.
Make sure to read through the thread before you do, as I’ve gone through a lot of arguments already and wouldn’t wish to repeat myself a whole bunch lol
 
-Type immunities aren't ignored in the anime, this is a straight up lie. Go to any random battle from the anime in this last decade and the type relationships are acknowledged.
Adding in a sneaky “in this last decade” because you know the most infamous examples are from older regions, this is seriously misleading


Legendaries lore abilities are exactly the same across mediums, them not being used in games is again, because of game mechanics not making those an option mid battle. You won't see a form change mid battle because the battling system doesn't make this an option. You won't see Dialga or Palkia freely ******* time and space up however they want because that's not an option. Same as Yveltal death haxing you, Kyogre drowning the battlefield, Groduon messing the terrain up. They are not options in game battling, and for incredibly obvious reasons.
You seem to think just saying the whole battling system of Pokémon RPGs is Game Mechanics fixes all of your problems, but it doesn’t. Not only is there ample opportunity in world building, cutscenes, etc. But some abilities are actually referenced in battle. Kyogre doesn’t drown the battlefield, but they do cause a permanent rain storm in it, for example. And form changes mid battle DO happen, whether it be from Primal Kyogre and Groudon, Mega Evolutions, Aegislash, or Zygarde off the top of my head. The “game mechanics” still allow for these parts of other medium’s lore to be acknowledged, so if they don’t it’s a showing of inconsistency/difference
 
I mean you will have hundreds of profiles which are the exact same with just minor tier changes at best (despite being in the same ballpark). It's pointless, considering even some of the same fears appear in the same series.
1. CRTs being minor doesn’t make a crt any less valid, so this point is entirely mute.
2. Minor changes to hundreds of profiles is still a decent amount of editing.
3. If it’s less work then that means the change is easier to implement, so again, you’re helping my case here
 
Adding in a sneaky “in this last decade” because you know the most infamous examples are from older regions, this is seriously misleading
Season one and two of pokemon was inconsistent in on itself but even then it was minor mistakes and Pikachu using a shower of water to soak Onix and electrocute him as well as that one wacky instance of yet again, Pikachu electrocuting Rhyhorn cause he struck his horn. The rest have complete consistency. Also, unless you suggest the anime is split into timelines (which would be utter bullshit) this point is basically irrelevant.
 
Season one and two of pokemon was inconsistent in on itself but even then it was minor mistakes and Pikachu using a shower of water to soak Onix and electrocute him as well as that one wacky instance of yet again, Pikachu electrocuting Rhyhorn cause he struck his horn. The rest have complete consistency. Also, unless you suggest the anime is split into timelines (which would be utter bullshit) this point is basically irrelevant.
Do you agree with the canon-splitting or not? From looking at all the replies it seems like you feel like the change is unnecessary, not that it’s actually wrong.
 
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