Gotta Revise 'Em All, Part 1: Splitting the Pokemon Canons (Massive Pokemon CRT)

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I agree with Kukui.

 

[Firestorm808]

Out of curiosity, what are the biggest/major contradictions/incompatibilites between the different media of pokemon that would help support your proposal?

 

[Ayewale]

Out of curiosity, what are the biggest/major contradictions/incompatibilities between the different media of pokemon that would help support your proposal?

The plots between each verse differ tremendously and vary in ways that make them difficult-to-impossible to equalize.
Many characters would be unable to be equalized to being dramatically different in every incarnation.
The average intellect of Pokemon varies quite a bit in games like the Pokemon Mystery Dungeon.
The 4-move limit (which is acknowledged pretty often by NPCs in battle dialogue and outside it) doesn't exist in other canons
Different moves operate very, very differently depending on the canon.
Type immunities in the anime are much looser than they are in the games (i.e. they can be circumvented and outright ignored in ways that are impossible).
Many characters have different abilities/scaling depending on depending on the canon.
The legendaries in particular vary dramatically from canon to canon: stats, lore, powersets, you name it. Deoxys has about half a dozen powers in his movie that aren't in the games, chief among them being his ability to freely transform mid-battle.
This list is incomplete.

There's an entire list on bulbapedia dedicated to the differences between just the games and anime but those are mostly minor.

 

[Hasty12345]

leaning towards agreeing with the OP, but I don't want to

 

[Ayewale]

leaning towards agreeing with the OP, but I don't want to

Why not? If you're worried that all the pages will be deleted, a good number of them would only really be reworked. Even Arceus (someone who disagrees with me) echoes the sentiment that not too many pages would be deleted.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Huh, I was typing some sort of neutral stance, but the more I thought about it, yeah. I agree with the OP. Even in the past I had shared with Cal sentiments that certain feats shouldn't have been cross-scales between the PKMN different mediums (particularly Mewtwo, whom I've always wanted to downgrade for this exact reason).

The different portrayals of certain abilities in particular (the anime alone has plenty of these differences), or indeed how the pkmn themselves show very different portrayals (PMD is the most telling about this).

And even the OP themselves have stated that whatever similarities are shared between the "different canons" are naturally going to be retained.

Which incidentally, about the people commenting "there would be a billion profiles with exact same things"... Why couldn't we simply not profile redundant and irrelevant things, lol.

Anyways, yeah. I agree with OP's premise fundamentally, even if also agree with Executor's take.

 

[Firestorm808]

To clarify, for franchises as big as Pokemon, what is the precedent regarding the media?

Do we take Pokemon as a unique case compared to other franchises? If so or not, why?

 

[Foxthefox1000]

I particularly don't agree with cross-scaling between different continuities. That one is definitely sketchy and I'd want an actual good reason why we do that.

 

[DaReaperMan]

If you want to complain about the species pages...

The Real World

Real Life/The Real World/Reality. It is where we all live. Real Life is the conjectured state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear or might be imagined. In a wider definition, reality includes everything that is and has been, whether it is observable or...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Delete every single organism page on here. No exceptions. No if ands or buts.

As for the thread, I honestly disagree, if a multiverse cannot contain any contradictions between seperate universes then what's the point of it being a multiverse in the first place?

 

[Foxthefox1000]

I'm fine with species shit. I just don't like when specific legendary mon do something in one continuity and it gets scaled to all other versions of that Pokemon without a good reason

 

[Ayewale]

To clarify, for franchises as big as Pokemon, what is the precedent regarding the media?

Do we take Pokemon as a unique case compared to other franchises? If so or not, why?

The precedent (based off virtually every franchise I can find sans a few) is that other forms of media outside of the 'main' material are supposed to be considered as separate canons unless very explicitly stated otherwise. For ones that don't really have a "main" series (ala Transformers) everything is considered separate canons still by default. I've brought up several examples throughout the thread, but for the sake of making a point:

• Star Wars extended media is mostly considered to be a part of overall star wars canon, but that is because many of them were officially and explicitly given the stamp by George Lucas (or just outright stated to be a part of the movies). Additionally, SW used to have dedicated 'tiers of canon' because even between multimedia many things were still canonically dubious.
• We tend to treat Marvel universes outside of Earth-616 as separate canons. There are lots of characters that scale to Earth-616 things but that is because they directly crossover with the main universe (e.g. Maestro). Alternate marvel media (like movies, books and games) are almost never considered to share a canon unless it's veeery explicitly laid out that they were canon.
• Lord of The Rings extended media is mostly divided: the Shadow of Mordor games, the movies and books all share separate canons. Even though the franchise is extensively well-managed by either Christopher Tolkein (J.R.R. Tolkein's son who pretty much dedicated himself to his father's work for decades til his death) and the Tolkein Estate (an entire legal body made for creative/legal control of the brand) and LOTR trilogy's director is famously known for being very accurate to the books, we still split them into different canons because they're just not stated to share a canon.
• The DCU is a complete clusterfuck and summarizing the way it treats AUs would take hours but, just like marvel, multimedia is not considered to be canon unless explicitly said to be.
  • An important note to this is the Killing Joke movie. Despite literally using the comic's storyboards as panels, it's extreme dedication to being accurate (...for the most part anyways) didn't make it canon to Batman nor to the OG novel.
• The various transformers shows have been confirmed to share a multiverse but still aren't cross-scaled because they just don't share canons; simple as.

We take Pokemon as a unique case because (according to the two stated Canonicity Blogs):

• The verse seems to have a high level of quality control, as there are many quotes from people who work on the games about how TPCi tries their best to manage the brand, make sure Pokemon is always recognizable, don't stray too far from the core idea, etc.
• The separate canons make several references to each other all the time, to the point where it would apparently be stupid to not cross-scale them.

I disagree with these reasonings because (a) high quality control is not enough to justify compositing the whole verse and (b) making lots of references (most of which come from the natural fact that they all are based on the exact same source material) also isn't enough to justify a verse-wide composite. At best, Executor made a compelling argument that since there is a lot of attention paid to maintaining the setting and feel of Pokemon across mediums, background details should be reasonably used across different canons. Otherwise, though, compositing them (in my opinion) is bad.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

If you want to complain about the species pages...

The Real World

Real Life/The Real World/Reality. It is where we all live. Real Life is the conjectured state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear or might be imagined. In a wider definition, reality includes everything that is and has been, whether it is observable or...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Delete every single organism page on here. No exceptions. No if ands or buts.

As for the thread, I honestly disagree, if a multiverse cannot contain any contradictions between seperate universes then what's the point of it being a multiverse in the first place?

Problem with this example: The Real Life "verse" is consistent within itself. PKMN portrayals between medium are not. OP had given plenty of differences between them, but even someone ignorant of the verse can spot them quite quickly.

Which, once more, even OP acknowledges the fact that similarities between mediums exist. A Pikachu will always be a mouse-like creature that can store electricity in its cheeks, whether you play Mystery Dungeon, Pokken, Conquest, the TCG, any of the games or watch the anime.

However, only PMD Pikachu showcases the usage of IQ skills. Only Pokken Pikachu can essentially execute multiple martial-arts based combinations of its moves. Only in the manga can Pikachu remotely control its Substitute to bypass psychic barriers and channel attacks. Edit: Not a single Pikachu can showcase all of these at once. That's fundamentally the problem with our "species" profiles (a moniker only made to "hide" the composite nature).

 

[Ayewale]

If you want to complain about the species pages...

The Real World

Real Life/The Real World/Reality. It is where we all live. Real Life is the conjectured state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear or might be imagined. In a wider definition, reality includes everything that is and has been, whether it is observable or...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Delete every single organism page on here. No exceptions. No if ands or buts.

As for the thread, I honestly disagree, if a multiverse cannot contain any contradictions between seperate universes then what's the point of it being a multiverse in the first place?

But the pokemon mediums sharing a multiverse (which is a big assumption, for the record) doesn't make them share a canon. See: Transformers, Marvel, DC, etc.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

And btw, let's not even get started with the most asinine quote within the verse page:

• All of our Pokémon species profiles assume the Pokémon is wild, Level 100 with perfect IVs, and know every possible move and skill without being trained.

Do I even need to explain the sheer ridiculousness with this?

 

[Ayewale]

And btw, let's not even get started with the most asinine quote within the verse page:

• All of our Pokémon species profiles assume the Pokémon is wild, Level 100 with perfect IVs, and know every possible move and skill without being trained.

Do I even need to explain the sheer ridiculousness with this?

There's a reason why the title for this CRT has a 'part 1' in it. The pokemon verse is in a dire state.

 

[Sero]

I agree with Kuro

 

[Rikimarox2]

Hopefully this thread doesn't turn more toxic with the antagonistic shit and stuff.

Regardless, I'm honestly more in agreement with the CRT.

 

[y3p_owo]

I agree with the trainers getting separate pages, neutral on the legendaries getting separate page, and heavily disagree with the regular mons getting separate page.

 

[Firestorm808]

@Antvasima

Would it be best to move this to a staff thread since we need to cross-examine our site rules to confirm that we are following them and prescedent or establish a new precedent.

 

[Aachintya31]

Following

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

If you want to complain about the species pages...

The Real World

Real Life/The Real World/Reality. It is where we all live. Real Life is the conjectured state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear or might be imagined. In a wider definition, reality includes everything that is and has been, whether it is observable or...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Delete every single organism page on here. No exceptions. No if ands or buts.

As for the thread, I honestly disagree, if a multiverse cannot contain any contradictions between seperate universes then what's the point of it being a multiverse in the first place?

I'm 100% sure that's a complete and utterly false equivalency, obviously we're not cross scaling Lions throughout several universes, not unless we suddenly became aware of alternate timelines recently

 

[Aachintya31]

Honestly it would be really tedious to determine which are a part of same continuity and which are different .However Agreeing with the OP

 

[Scottycj256]

I'm 100% sure that's a complete and utterly false equivalency, obviously we're not cross scaling Lions throughout several universes, not unless we suddenly became aware of alternate timelines recently

it is lol

It's been proven multiple times that there are inconsistencies between the timelines that make it completely unreliable to cross-scale between them. Pokemon already breaks the site's rules about composite profiles anyways, so I'm honestly not sure why we're even arguing about revising in the first place when it should be a given.

 

[Reiner04]

The inconsistencies between canons cannot simply be dismissed as 'oh the Pokemon Multiverse is very large'. There isn't any proof that they share a Multiverse, wiki policy assumes that different mediums = different canons unless explicitly stated otherwise no matter how similar they look, and I am aware that a multiverse exists. My canon breakdown acknowledges so multiple times...

True there are many franchises who have manyworlds interpretation theory where universes branches off over possibilities but even so games and movies coming from same media but different sources aren't considered canon here by default.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Their experience with Pokemon doesn't nullify the fact that calling for a topic ban is in extremely bad taste (and some of them do have experience and are Supporters). It being brought up multiple times doesn't make any future attempt automatically invalid, either.

Dont know how long you've been on this wikia, but i've participated in much more of these pokemon topic discussions than you have, and they are in fact not supporters. Have barely participated in any of the major threads, especially the ones at recent. And again, this topic on splitting the canons up has been done numerous times on this site. Requesting for a topic ban when we've gone through this bullshit again, and again, and again, is not acting in bad faith but to stop the needless and annoying repetition of people just not accepting shit from what was explained several times already.

And unless you bring in some actual NEW and relevant information that makes this attempt different, then yes, attempting the topic again becomes invalidated. That is literally the purpose of discussions rules here.

You also assume that people 'haven't noticed the counters' instead of them seeing your posts and just...not agreeing. Imagine if I said the people who agree with you just don't understand my post; I'd come off as being arrogant and annoying.

I don't have to assume because in an actual debate, when a counter argument is presented and your going to side against said argument, your responsibility is to debunk said argument or else you will come across as just mindlessly agreeing with whatever you want and ignoring points that have an actual basis.

We don't agree with something without an actual reason and the same thing for disagreeing applies too.

Canons aren't alternate universes in Pokemon...I think we've lost track of what canon means. 'Canons being alternate universes' makes no sense: i

It's rather simple and I fail to see what's hard to understand about it. If one canon source is considered a parallel universe to another canon source, rather than them being considered separate continuities, that establishes that both canon sources are connected and exist in the same "world".

Separate canons means just that, separate canons. Sources that have no connection whatsoever to each other and are deemed unrelated. Sources that are parallel to each other means they have a connection.

Any given Pokemon in Pokemon Mystery Dungeon (which you claimed should be a part of the composite canon) is far more intelligent than any given pokemon in the anime & games. They are the exact same creature and yet are more than different enough to warrant their own profile.

Unless you are talking about specific cases like the main characters, no they aren't. Mystery Dungeon pokemon for the most part are literally just wild pokemon fighting each other and living in their own world without trainer or human assistance like they'd normally get otherwise. If a wild pokemon can do something, the other wild members of their species have the same natural capability of replicating that and their feats are indicative to that entire species.

This of course doesn't apply to the main characters as they are essentially trained pokemon who take on opponents on a consistent basis that are far far above what other normal pokemon in MD can take on.

Also you're not a Transformers Nerd, but even Generic Autobots in each verse have significant differences (for example, their origin differs greatly, how similar Cybertronian society is to ours is very different, their average durability varies a lot) lol

None of these kinds of significant differences happens in Pokemon as far as how each species is depicted however. And Transformers in the first place isn't a verse that treats different canon mediums as an alternate world to each other.

The actual characters from Nobunaga's Ambition do appear in Pokemon Conquest, though. The other warlords are based off them, but Nobunaga shares the exact same design, appearance and character as his game counterpart.

Yes, but what matters here is if theres cross scaling feats between Pokemon and Nobunaga's Ambition. There isn't. So Conquest doesn't break a single rule about crossover feats as none exist in the first place.

1. Pokemon Conquest having a canon-accurate portrayal of Arceus does nothing to make it accurate. You ignored my point about how plenty of crossover games try to be accurate like this, too.

...No I didn't ignore it? I literally said that even in our crossover rules, we allow crossovers to be one sided canons. Canon to one verse but not another.

Anyway, having a canon-accurate portrayl of Arceus does make it accurate to the worldview and source material for Pokemon, because Arceus in both is considered the creator of everything. Meaning? It gives Conquest more reason to consider it apart of what Arceus created, the verse, than not to consider it as such.

The Pokken Tournament producer said pretty plainly "it's canonical in the context of the games"...which (a) means the games are a different canon, otherwise his distinction wouldn't make sense and (b) is very, very specific. He doesn't know if it's canon to the other games or not. Which in of itself acknowledges that Pokken is it's own canon.

You pretty much just repeated what I countered earlier, so I'll just repeat what I said. He never said the game wasn't canon or that he doesn't know if it's canon. He said he doesn't know if the TPC will use Shadow Mewtwo in the future or not, which doesnt mean Pokken's canon status is on the chopping block.

That being said, I already said someone can try make an argument for Pokken if they want, as my argument on this point mostly pertains to Conquest.

Pokemon creatures do vary across mediums, though. Intelligence varies significantly, the mechanics of moves changes, type immunities can be circumvented in ways that aren't possible in the games consistently, etc.

Again, your parroting what you said in previous reasons that I already gave counters for and just repeating it again here.

Intelligence from a wild pokemon is not varying, that's literally just showing how smart the wild species is.

The mechanics of moves changing isn't varying, as I already said, mediums outside the games show Pokemon off in a way the games can't because of game mechanics.

And I already debunked the type immunity point, the anime doesn't and hasn't allowed circumventing type relationships for decades. It's a non argument.

"Except you have yet to bring up an actual similar example, all of your examples are literally false equivalances. You have yet to even reference a verse where canons are treated as alternate worlds, which by then, I could start taking the comparison seriously." Well, this is a pretty loaded statement.
Firstly, Marvel & DC. I dunno what to tell you other than the fact that we treat different universes like their own separate canons. I have referenced it several times at this point.

Marvel and DC don't treat canons like alternate universes that are connected to each other. What part of this are you not getting? If the canons are consisdered alternate universes, they are connected to each other. If they're only separate canons, they are not.

1. Secondly, this assumes that the pokemon mediums are all just parallel to each other, something that has no proof. Yes, each games are different timelines...why does this automatically apply to the anime? Even Executor himself said that he doesn't think they share a multiverse.

........because the games and anime ARE parallel to each other as confirmed by an author statement. I've mentioned this like 5 times now.

And no, Executor didn't say that. He said that he thinks not every Pokemon medium exists in the same multiverse.

Thirdly, you're being rather dismissive of the examples. Whether LOTR treats the movies as being another universe is irrelevant; what matters is how the LOTR universe has far more artistic control than TPCi, to the point where Christopher Tolkein spent his lifetime keep adaptations consistent. There's even the Tolkein Estate to further manage things, and Peter Jackson dedicated himself to making the LOTR movies as accurate as possible. Yet, this accuracy (per the wiki's standards) are not enough to equalize the movies and books.

It absolutely is relevant, because if they're not considered alternate universes, they never had any reason to be considered connected with each other in the first place.

And we can't equalize canons for different characters. Pokemon pages are not characters, they are a species. That makes them a blatantly different case.

Therefore, by this standard, accuracy/consistency alone is not an argument for compositing all verse profiles.

We were never arguing for all profiles to be "composited" in the first place, so not even seeing the point in mentioning this.

You obviously have more arguments than that, but can we agree 'TPCi monitors things and makes sure their correct' isn't a point anymore?

No. Just because it by itself doesnt establish canonicity doesnt mean it's not a supporting detail, and again, the practice of canons being considered parallel worlds to each other justifies the use of this than a verse that does not treat their canons like that.

1. A case by case basis is not an invitation to ignore literally all standards on how canon works. Things are rated on a case by case basis only when the rule itself is vague: "compositing canons is not allowed" is a pretty hard rule.

Because for the ******* upteenth time, the rule on banning composite profiles is to ban combining different characters. What part of

Pokemon

Pages

Not

Being

Characters

Are you not getting? They are species pages, indexing what the entire species is naturally capable of, excluding trainer-developed Pokemon who have their own separate powersets. Indexing an entire wild species is not compositing, and thus, the rule doesn't apply.

1. Everyone seems to acknowledge that the manga, anime and games are different canons (calling them alternate worlds does nothing to make this less true) so it follows that their profiles remain separate.

Except it absolutely does. Alternate worlds makes these canons connected. Different canons doesn't nullify that fact. If they're connected, they can be used. And evidence of them being connected exists and has already been presented.

You can keep saying being alternate worlds doesn't change anything all you want, it's not a counter argument or any kind of argument against this in the first place.

1. "Again,. im going to ask a simple question and I want an answer. Do any of these verses you named have ANY level of evidence that specifies their canons being considered parallel universes to each other?"
   1. Yes, Marvel & DC. Different canons are called Different Earths.
   2. Yes, Star Wars, too.
   3. Transformers as well.
   4. They are not false equivalences by default as explained above.

Kindly present evidences of this for each verse then please.

Individual Pokemon canons being established to have a multiverse =/= All of the canons take place in said multiverse. By this logic, the Harry Potter movies and books exist in the same universe because alternate timelines were established, so of course they're both parallel to each other (and it would also mean HP answers 'yes' to our question to , which makes literally every verse answer a 'yes' to your question).

Again, do you have any confirmation on the book canon for Harry Potter and the HP movie canon being considered parallel worlds linked to each other? If not, then false equivalence.

Except this doesn't make sense: the existence of a multiverse doesn't mean everything is suddenly a part of it. Transformer canons are a part of the multiverse because it's explicitly stated that they all exist in a multiverse. Marvel & DC canons share a multiverse because...it's explicitly stated that they are. Not "the concept of multiverses exists", moreso "yes, every marvel adapation is part of the multiverse". Pokemon is more of the former.

And Pokemon also does the exact same thing with specifying canons existing as part of each other as parallel worlds, establishing there's a connection between them the same way Transfomers and Marvel/DC do. Such as, for example, the games and anime being explicitly stated to be parallel worlds.

And the fact that game characters exist in the anime canon, and anime characters existing in the game canon, to make that even more true.

1. "And its hilarious you mention Bulbpedia when, on that very same source..." On that very same source, Alain does not have a section for being in the games, because there's no reason to assume that speech was a real reference and not an easter egg. There is literally no source on the internet that definitely says Alain is in the games.

Because we humans have something called common sense here, and don't need information to be spoon fed to us when the obvious is literally right in ******* front of us. Acting otherwise is just being willfully ignorant.

We dont need a source to say it's definitely Alain BECAUSE THERE'S NO OTHER CHARACTER it can possibly be besides Alain. It's literally this simple. Alain is the only character Steven has ever interacted with, in ANY Pokemon medium in the entire franchise, that HAS a charizard who can mega evolve. No one else in the whole verse besides Alain, that knows Steven, has a charizard to be considered an option. Literally no one else. So who would Steven be talking in reference to? Alain.

Being this willfully ignorant and dismissive is exactly part of the reason why discussing this with you is a pain. You can't keep dismissing something as "just an easter egg" because you don't have an argument to support yourself with.

Also, assuming he is in the games, it'd be a game-specific version of Alain with no relation to the anime, because as you said, they are completely different mediums/canons/universes/whatever the **** we go by at this point.

Headcanon, and im not even surprised this was your response. But anyway, there is absolutely nothing that says Alain in the games isn't the same from the anime, and arguing this is just ******* stupid. Why would Steven mention a character that up til then, he's only been seen interacting with in the anime?

Occams razor is that Steven in the games is talking about anime Alain, the medium that they interact with.

The canons are not confirmed to be parallel because see above.

And they are because see above. Or rather, you can easily just find the confirmation in Ex's own blog that links the author confirmation that they're parallel.

"So your literal only response to this is that "it can't be true because then the anime is canon to the games, which just cant be true!" No, my response to this is that the anime and game stories differ way too much to both be happening at the same time, it's not that difficult. You yourself have acknowledged that they are widely different, hence the multiverse designation.

Except they dont need to be happening at the same time, because they're in their own parallel worlds CONNECTED to each other. Like...what?

Your point on the anime game mechanics is really illuminating. I think this is the fundamental difference in this argument. You have to go out of your way to justify every inconsistency, be it them taking place in a multiverse being "confirmed" or them being "unable" to portray how realistic battles or how PMD's vastly different portrayal of Pokemon because it "literally takes someone from our world". Whereas Occam's Razor and wiki policy just default to the obvious: they're wildly inconsistent because they don't share a canon. There isn't any difference or inconsistency I could possibly bring up to change your mind.

Or maybe, just maybe, your so called inconsistencies are in fact not actual inconsistencies and im justifying each one of them because they simply aren't inconsistent?

Your blatant abuse of game mechanics and how things like how the moves are used IN game mechanics as some kind of argument against the mediums is just dumbfounded to the level of arguing game mechanics being the realistic portrayal, and this is something so obvious that I find it incredibly hard to believe you believe anything you say here.

It's the difference between an essay looking for an answer to a question and an essay trying to prove an answer to a question; the second one is going to have the same outcome no matter what evidence it encounters, even if it's literally nothing. It's also why literally the moment the thread started, before any long debates or hostility of every kind, you jumped to being rude, gave me no benefit of doubt, and assumed I was a liar, and then doubled down after I pointed it out.

When your points don't give me a convincing on look on taking you seriously here, then that is what's going to happen. Especially when points like assuming characters from one medium existing in different mediums somehow only means they are only different versions of the character, without a shred of evidence to even hint at that, is being seriously brought up.

Like, yeah, the games can't show Palkia using space to **** with people (apart from lore talking about it's powers, and the move spatial rend, and the pokedex outright confirming it's abilities) or Kyogre drowning the battlefield (apart from having an ability to causes so much rain fire-type moves don't work or nearly flooding the entire region passively) or Dialga Time Stopping people (which, if it could do in the games...they would say it would) or Jirachi making a wish whenever it wants (which the games explicitly say it can't). Or how the game can't display any of Deoxys powers because npc lore, npc statements, pokedex entries, animations or special moves are all too expensive for the games. Or how the games literally having unique universes doesn't make their cosmologies unique. Or how "Flying Types are intentionally immune to spikes in-game but can take spike damage in the anime" is clearly just the games being limited and not the anime and games being very different...

Because since when has a game mechanic battle in any ******* pokemon game ever gave options like this? Literally, when have they? I was being sarcastic when making this point because the answer is incredibly obvious on why they can't. These are battles, turn based battles at that, pitting Pokemon and their movesets against each other. Not their lore powers, which are literally never permitted in a ******* battle that isn't a cutscene from the actual damn story.

The settings of battle mechanics don't just ******* allow you to take a pokemon and do things like make Jirachi making a wish in the middle of these battles to instantly end a match. Or a Kyogre drowning everything in sight underwater like it does in cutscenes (which are non game mechanics and scenes of what is going on in the actual story?) . Or a Yveltal just passive death haxing an opponent to kill them like its death powers do in the story. Or a Palkia warping space to wipe you from existence like it does in the story. Or Dialga time stopping you in the middle of battle.

Lore powers, npc statements, & pokedex entry abilities not being usuable in-game has literally and absolutely nothing to do "being too expensive for the games". It's because they are plainly and blatantly NOT APART OF POKEMON'S BATTLE MECHANICS.

And as for the flying type point, a flying types immunity to things like ground moves or spikes is a game mechanic in and of itself, as it being immune to those things is simply because of the fact that they fly and don't have contact with the ground. That's it. Giving an immunity because your a bird or an aerial creature makes no sense whatsoever.

With all of this being said it kinda seems like you're arguing with as much bad faith against me as possible. It makes it pretty difficult to respond to your criticisms sometimes. Hopefully when you read this and come back with a response you would have chilled out a lot because we might as well not continue debating otherwise.

Because you give me no reason to not look at your arguments and not think some of the points being given are straight up nonsensical.

When we reach the point in the discussion where some of the counters set against me are:

-Using type relationships as knocks against a medium's canonicity thinking they're not honored in said medium

-Believing game mechanics wont restrict pokemon from using their powers in-game, thinking the battling system doesn't include them

-Taking any kind of evidence I give about characters from a medium existing in another and just summing it up as "easter eggs" or "they're a different version of that character and are unrelated"

I see nothing but using any kind of point as possible to try searching for inconsistencies, that are not actual inconsistencies relevant to prove mediums diverging, to support their own argument out of desperate attempts. And things like this make my own part in this discussion met with extreme frustration when my points are either just hand waived, given copouts, or met with repetition.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I'm 100% sure that's a complete and utterly false equivalency, obviously we're not cross scaling Lions throughout several universes, not unless we suddenly became aware of alternate timelines recently

Im not sure what us being or not being aware of alternate worlds has anything to do with his point on the treatment of species profiles? A lion would get cross scaling across several universes, because in every single one of those universes, the lion species is exactly the same with the same capabilities.

There's no special variant of lion that suddenly has abilities so superior that another lion like itself can't reasonably replicate them on their own.

By the way, as I said before, Digimon is another verse with a case exactly like this with species pages and scaling. But not a single person on this site has ever expressed issues with how their species pages are scaled like people are magically complaining here about with Pokemon. So I would assume you would also look into their methods of species scaling too?

Problem with this example: The Real Life "verse" is consistent within itself. PKMN portrayals between medium are not. OP had given plenty of differences between them, but even someone ignorant of the verse can spot them quite quickly.

Not a single example listed in the OP proves a pokemon species differentiates across mediums, and I have debunked each and every one of them pertaining to Pokemon.

The only ones that stands would be the ones about the human trainer characters, and those are irrelevant when human characters in the verse don't get everything across mediums in the first place.

Which, once more, even OP acknowledges the fact that similarities between mediums exist. A Pikachu will always be a mouse-like creature that can store electricity in its cheeks, whether you play Mystery Dungeon, Pokken, Conquest, the TCG, any of the games or watch the anime.

However, only PMD Pikachu showcases the usage of IQ skills. Only Pokken Pikachu can essentially execute multiple martial-arts based combinations of its moves. Only in the manga can Pikachu remotely control its Substitute to bypass psychic barriers and channel attacks. Edit: Not a single Pikachu can showcase all of these at once. That's fundamentally the problem with our "species" profiles (a moniker only made to "hide" the composite nature).

PMD however is still a wild Pikachu. It's not a special variant of Pikachu thats being granted something outside the normal capabilities of the Pikachu species, it is a wild Pikachu with those given abilities.

Pokken shouldn't count martial-arts based moves for all Pikachu since Pokken is literally a game SOLELY for trainer-specific pokemon. Unless im missing something here, no wild Pokemon fight each other in Pokken, they are pokemon from trainers. The only exception to this being Mewtwo.

As for moves like manga's version of substitute, bypassing barriers is the only thing unique about it. Every medium has depicted substitute as a clone who can still use moves and such, just like Double Team (which is essentially Pokemon's version of Naruto's clone jutsu and is even called shadow clones in japanese funny enough). But we don't give bypassing barriers to all Pikachu. Besides, wasn't bypassing barriers something Red's Pikachu did in the manga?

Edit: Not a single Pikachu can showcase all of these at once. That's fundamentally the problem with our "species" profiles (a moniker only made to "hide" the composite nature).

I can see where you're coming from with this, but here's the problem with this. The thing you aren't quite seeing here is that the purpose of species profiles is to index every general thing that the species is capable of, because they explicitly aren't character pages. That would defeat the purpose of them being species pages to begin with if we did that.

Obviously, we know that not one single wild Pikachu can do every possible thing the wild Pikachu species could do. It can't know every possible move in it's repertoire at once. It can't know all IQ skills it could have at once. It can't know all Pokken moves it could learn at once. A single one has the potential to access all of those things, but that single one can't show them all. There will always be a wild Pikachu with different things from another wild Pikachu, even though all of this stuff is all accessible to all wild Pikachu.

But the Pikachu species page isn't indexing that one single wild Pikachu. It's indexing ALL wild Pikachu. Every single member of the wild species of what they can or could do, and indexing it on the page for their species. That's why the species page gets everything, because it's covering what any wild Pikachu could do. So while a single wild Pikachu will not have access to all of that, the species page of the Pikachu species would get everything a wild Pikachu can do, which is why for our purposes of things like battle-boarding or vs battling debates, Pikachu ends up in a battle with all of these possible things. Using the species page in a fight simply allows the use of everything it's indexing, because it's taking everything a wild Pikachu could do.

The only time that "a single Pikachu can't showcase all of these things" matters is when theres a Pikachu who isn't just some wild member of the species. But rather, a Pikachu that is it's own character, with it's own unique powerset, with its own arsenal of things it can and cannot do. For example, Ash's Pikachu. His Pikachu doesnt get all of the things the species page lists because his Pikachu has a specific set of powers that sets it apart from the others.

This isn't just for Pokemon either, you can say the same for Digimon too. Do you think every single Agumon in the Agumon species would all be able to showcase everything the species can do at once? Of course not. Every Digimon in their species would naturally have access to all of what the species could do, but some members of the species will have some things and others would have other things. But because the species page doesn't cover a specific Agumon, but all of them, it lists everything Agumons species can do and in a vs debate, all of those things get thrown in to be used as its pitting the species against an opponent.

 

[Andytrenom]

One example I can think of of moves working differently between anime and games is reflect and mirror coat. In the games they deal damage in proportion to the damage you take from a physical or special attack respectively, in the anime it sends the attack back itself

There's also things like TMs which don't exist in the anime universe but do in the games and afaik adaptations like Origins which are more faithful to the games

 

[Confluctor]

Marvel and DC don't treat canons like alternate universes that are connected to each other. What part of this are you not getting? If the canons are consisdered alternate universes, they are connected to each other. If they're only separate canons, they are not.

Every universe is essentially different and without proper and concrete proof, we don't consider them sharing the same canon and we don't cross scale between the universes at all. Some old files might have that, but no, we don't cross scale. Their canon varies heavily from universe to universe. See Ultimate and 616, for example. Or Supreme Power and Ultimate or 616. Or AOS and other realities. And so on.

You will see dozens of supermen from alt realities but they are vastly different and don't operate in the same level without further proof. Also difference of abilities. See Countdown, for example. We had heroes from dozens of realities, same characters and meant to have the same power set, but turned out, it was vastly different.

Only things we do cross scale in Marvel and DC are the cosmic entities - some of them - which are consistent across the board.

In short, we don't consider alt realities to be similar to Prime Earth or 616 in any form or shape - including canon, aside from a few instances, such as cosmic structure sometimes and verse consistent cosmic entities.

 

[Andytrenom]

I haven't watched origins but from the snippets I have seen it also has different mechanics from the main anime with things it pulls directly from the games. Maybe paying attention to these differences will show of there's a substantial difference that can't just explained away by game mechanics

 

[Sniper670]

.

You will see dozens of supermen from alt realities but they are vastly different and don't operate in the same level without further proof. Also difference of abilities. See Countdown, for example. We had heroes from dozens of realities, same characters and meant to have the same power set, but turned out, it was vastly different.

Look, there's nothing "vastly different" across the board with Pokémon as far as I can remember

If you were following this thread, you'll realise the things that seperate them are minor things like Pokémon cries being different.

Or maybe a move being portrayed in different ways depending on which Pokémon

There's always an explanation.

For example Pokken Pokémon are on average, far more powerful than normal mons because they have access to Synergy power, which others don't.

Same as Pokémon Unite, which uses Aeos energy

Same as Masters, because of sync pairs

Pokémon mystery dungeon takes place in a fantasy-like world, the trainer from the main universe gets pulled into it. Again, no contradiction as everything that happens, happens in PMD world and has no influence on trainer's world

Pokémon Conquest doesn't even break anything nor does it contradict anything

Same as Pokémon duel

You catch my drift

Only things we do cross scale in Marvel and DC are the cosmic entities - some of them - which are consistent across the board.

Same as Pokémon

 

[Confluctor]

I have no opinion on Pokémon but to clarify, the consistent across board refers to higher dimensional beings who transcends base universes/multiverse. Which means they aren't as affected by different canons and stuff like that.

But MCU and Marvel Comics versions, for example, couldn't be more different, so they cannot be scaled in powers, abilities, cosmic standing, etc. Same with Fox's cosmic entity, Phoenix and her comic counterpart.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I mean, a lot of the stuff in Pokémon is pretty similar across universes, but obviously some are different. For example, Red in his game continuity is one character, but another in Origins, and in the manga, and then Ash is also the anime version of Red (and there's M20-M24 Ash as well who is not the main Ash. And Mirror Ash. And Alternate Universe Ash in Journeys)

Obviously Red from the game wouldn't scale to feats done by manga Red, or by Ash

 

[Arceus0x]

I mean, a lot of the stuff in Pokémon is pretty similar across universes, but obviously some are different. For example, Red in his game continuity is one character, but another in Origins, and in the manga, and then Ash is also the anime version of Red (and there's M20-M24 Ash as well who is not the main Ash. And Mirror Ash. And Alternate Universe Ash in Journeys)

Obviously Red from the game wouldn't scale to feats done by manga Red, or by Ash

They have separate profiles bro

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

They have separate profiles bro

Not everyone has. Many of the characters have fused profiles between continuities, or just ignore stuff that isn't the games

 

[Arceus0x]

Not everyone has. Many of the characters have fused profiles between continuities, or just ignore stuff that isn't the games

Where

 

[Antvasima]

@Antvasima

Would it be best to move this to a staff thread since we need to cross-examine our site rules to confirm that we are following them and precedent or establish a new precedent.

I do not think that this seems to be a site policy thread, and our standards very heavily discourage using composite profile pages for different versions of characters in the first place, so probably not.

For the record, I strongly agree with Ayewale here, and salute him for doing a great and necessary job in starting this revision.

However, maybe we should stick this thread to the top of our content revision forum, since it is very important and shouldn't be forgotten before the revision has been applied, or is it sufficient if I send a notification to the staff and knowledgeable members who are interested in Pokemon? There will also be LOTS of work in order to apply this, so all productive help in this regard is obviously very appreciated.

 

[Sniper670]

Tbh I agree with Ant.

Personally(and after thinking about it last night), Pokémon should be completely deleted and redone from the ground up.

Its one of the things where fixing it is more difficult than rebuilding

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

This wouldn't affect the Creation Trio and Arceus, right?
Since they created the multiverse?

 

[Hasty12345]

Before anything drastic happens, are we considering there to be multiple non-cross-scalable continuities, or just non-cross-scalable timelines within a multiverse setting?

If we’re considering the latter, at the very least the creation trio should be fine given their nature and role within the verse iirc.

 

[Ayewale]

Tbh I agree with Ant.

Personally(and after thinking about it last night), Pokémon should be completely deleted and redone from the ground up.

Its one of the things where fixing it is more difficult than rebuilding

So do you agree with me or not?