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General DC Comics Discussion Thread

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Dc DeMateis cosmology and yet PART 2

Hello again everyone, in the first part of my thread the asset fell very much and it became difficult to understand the text due to the many comments in it + there are some new arguments that will help clarify the situations in this cosmology. Some good guys offered me to do the second part, I...
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Superman (DC Comics) Profile(s) Discussion Thread

Golden Age / Earth-Two Silver Age / Earth-One / “Pre-Crisis” New Earth / “Post-Crisis” New 52 / “Post-Flashpoint” Rebirth I made this thread for suggestions on improving Supeman’s profiles in preparation for a CRT (adding missing abilities, scans or supporting evidence). To clarify this thread...
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Robo432343 said:
shouldn't world forger be 2-A for creating infinite universes multiple times?
Click to expand...
You should start a crt on this, but WF has been shown to create one universe at a time every time he swings his hammer. 2-C is fine for him. In the Sixth Dimension, however, the World Forger is larger than the multiverse and rules over the fifth-dimensional imps and exists on a plane of existence greater than them, thus Low 1-C suits him best.
 
Elizio33 said:
I think the fact that all three entities are viewpoints of the Light makes sense because Williamson integrated the "Light of Creation" and associated it with the origins of the Overvoid, which Morrison declared to be the same as the Source a few years earlier.

The Light of Creation is also identified as the hand featured in Moore's Swamp Thing. The hand of the Presence is that of the Light as the story clearly shows.

Literally a year earlier, the Presence and the Source were assumed to be the same, as Snyder's Death Metal shows a comma between "the Presence, of the Source", which Snyder later confirmed to be the case.

Additionally, DC's recent guidebook: The DC Book: A Vast and Vibrant Multiverse Simply Explained describes the Presence to be in charge of the Hands featured in Snyder's stories.

The three entities were clearly used interchangeably over the years and Williamson simply associated the whole as the Light of Creation and did a pretty good job as well.
Click to expand...
I also forgot to mention this but your take on what comes with continuity is pressed with changes. The Overvoid was not the same as the Presence as Grant clearly defined the Presece as something manifested with the Material and Metaphysical Plane.

Grant notions the Source is not equal to the Overvoid but is the Overvoid. As a white Void when the only thing beyond Nil was the Overvoid. The unknown description doesn't even fit the Presence given the Presence is the form given shape. This is known and everything else with Snyder was added upon his idea, I don't recall Grant being the head writer but just a collaborator. So his canons are his own with Snyder making his own with additional information to the Multiversity Map which is outdated and isn't used to convey anything in Synder other than references as “Map of the Multiverse.”

Also, the three beings mentioned in the map are not part of a true Creator. They each are the true Creator. The true Creator thing was just a fan-made theory like Presence = Source = Overvoid. You can argue about their nature and power but actual confirmation that they are one and the same. I don't intend for Grant to notion Source = Presence that's simply what Snyder came up with.

I meant to say this so the late response shouldn't be too random.
 
New information about the universes for the Crisis Cosmology (more or less lol): The 53rd universe is one of the infinite universes previously destroyed during Crisis on Infinite Earths that Pariah 'brought back' during Dark Crisis. The problem is that Earth-53 was involved during the Metal Wars and wasn't part of the fifty-two known universes of the Orrery, meaning that the infinite universes still existed somewhere outside of the Orrery and unbeknownst to anyone.

We've learned that the Pre-Crisis Multiverse still existed as "Multiverse-2" and there is a barrier between Multiverse-1, otherwise known as the Orrery of Worlds, and Multiverse-2.

Now who scales to it? Simply none! Only the fifty-two worlds of the Orrery have been involved in multiversal events since Final Crisis and the mention of a barrier between the two multiverses strongly implied that they were separate multiverses before they were 'merged' together at the end of Dark Crisis.
 
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VeryGoofyToddler said:
I also forgot to mention this but your take on what comes with continuity is pressed with changes. The Overvoid was not the same as the Presence as Grant clearly defined the Presece as something manifested with the Material and Metaphysical Plane.

Grant notions the Source is not equal to the Overvoid but is the Overvoid. As a white Void when the only thing beyond Nil was the Overvoid. The unknown description doesn't even fit the Presence given the Presence is the form given shape. This is known and everything else with Snyder was added upon his idea, I don't recall Grant being the head writer but just a collaborator. So his canons are his own with Snyder making his own with additional information to the Multiversity Map which is outdated and isn't used to convey anything in Synder other than references as “Map of the Multiverse.”

Also, the three beings mentioned in the map are not part of a true Creator. They each are the true Creator. The true Creator thing was just a fan-made theory like Presence = Source = Overvoid. You can argue about their nature and power but actual confirmation that they are one and the same. I don't intend for Grant to notion Source = Presence that's simply what Snyder came up with.

I meant to say this so the late response shouldn't be too random.
Click to expand...
Morrison never used the term The Presence, or The Presence as God
 
What should we do with Lex Luthor's information that the idea of the Omniverse was false?

Should we not consider that he was talking about the main multiverse which supposedly became its own “Omniverse” composed of countless universes and multiverses? Because these were just statements and neither the new universes nor multiverses have been explored except for Earth-Omega. Lex also said that the false idea of the Omniverse created an imbalance in the multiverse that Pariah was manipulating. The Greater Omniverse featured in Snyder's stories is real since there are beings who inhabit it.

Then we had Flashpoint Beyond where the Omniverse was mentioned as an actual concept which contradicted what Luthor said earlier.

What do you think?
 
Elizio33 said:
What should we do with Lex Luthor's information that the idea of the Omniverse was false?

Should we not consider that he was talking about the main multiverse which supposedly became its own “Omniverse” composed of countless universes and multiverses? Because these were just statements and neither the new universes nor multiverses have been explored except for Earth-Omega. Lex also said that the false idea of the Omniverse created an imbalance in the multiverse that Pariah was manipulating. The Greater Omniverse featured in Snyder's stories is real since there are beings who inhabit it.

Then we had Flashpoint Beyond where the Omniverse was mentioned as an actual concept which contradicted what Luthor said earlier.

What do you think?
Click to expand...
I think we could toss out Lex Luthor's info. I don't recall the exact moment he said that but if it's during Dark Crisis he's wrong. Barry revealed the earths that he explored after the omniverse was brought back post Death Metal. He mentions that he visited earths beyond the known 52 like Earth 55 being DCeased, DC vs Vampires being Earth 63, and Earth 118 is Dark Knight of Steel. It brought back old comic universes like Earth 898 being JLA: The Nail and Amalgam (DC and Marvel) being Earth 1996.

It even revealed the previously unknown earths in the 52.

Earth 14 is now Justice League of Assassins.
Earth 24 is DC Bombshells.
Earth 25 is Tom Strong by Alan Moore.
Earth 27 is The Jurassic League.
Earth 28 is DC Mech.
Earth 46 is Gargoyle of Gotham.
Earth 49 is revealed as Injustice Universe.

That's not the limit by the way. Those are only the ones Barry said he recorded. He passed many more that he didn't study. So, I would say the omniverse was real after Death Metal and Future State. If you want to read it, it's in Dark Crisis Big Bang on page 25 or 24.
 
Asterotheology said:
I think we could toss out Lex Luthor's info. I don't recall the exact moment he said that but if it's during Dark Crisis he's wrong. Barry revealed the earths that he explored after the omniverse was brought back post Death Metal. He mentions that he visited earths beyond the known 52 like Earth 55 being DCeased, DC vs Vampires being Earth 63, and Earth 118 is Dark Knight of Steel. It brought back old comic universes like Earth 898 being JLA: The Nail and Amalgam (DC and Marvel) being Earth 1996.

It even revealed the previously unknown earths in the 52.

Earth 14 is now Justice League of Assassins.
Earth 24 is DC Bombshells.
Earth 25 is Tom Strong by Alan Moore.
Earth 27 is The Jurassic League.
Earth 28 is DC Mech.
Earth 46 is Gargoyle of Gotham.
Earth 49 is revealed as Injustice Universe.

That's not the limit by the way. Those are only the ones Barry said he recorded. He passed many more that he didn't study. So, I would say the omniverse was real after Death Metal and Future State. If you want to read it, it's in Dark Crisis Big Bang on page 25 or 24.
Click to expand...
Yeah but these were the infinite universes that Pariah 'brought back'. I was talking about the supposedly infinite web of multiverses mentioned at the end of Death Metal and Infinite Frontier.
 
Elizio33 said:
Yeah but these were the infinite universes that Pariah 'brought back'. I was talking about the supposedly infinite web of multiverses mentioned at the end of Death Metal and Infinite Frontier.
Click to expand...
I'm almost positive that Barry found those before his encounter with Pariah. It just wasn't revealed until Dark Crisis Big Bang for whatever reason. This was the results he found beforehand. At least from the context of Dark Crisis since the comic happens before the ending of the event where Pariah brings them back. Especially since Earth 66 and 789 was there when he fought Anti Monitor. Though I could be wrong.

Edit: So, I checked, and you were correct. That's bizarre. I could have sworn this happened before hand. That said, I recall Spectre and the rest telling Wonder Woman that there were countless universes now in Infinite Frontier issue 0. Problem is now the Barry and Pariah thing.
 
Last edited:
Asterotheology said:
I'm almost positive that Barry found those before his encounter with Pariah. It just wasn't revealed until Dark Crisis Big Bang for whatever reason. This was the results he found beforehand. At least from the context of Dark Crisis since the comic happens before the ending of the event where Pariah brings them back. Especially since Earth 66 and 789 was there when he fought Anti Monitor. Though I could be wrong.

Edit: So, I checked, and you were correct. That's bizarre. I could have sworn this happened before hand. That said, I recall Spectre and the rest telling Wonder Woman that there were countless universes now in Infinite Frontier issue 0. Problem is now the Barry and Pariah thing.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I don't really know how to handle this, I either delete the new multiversal iteration or ignore Luthor's statement.
 
Elizio33 said:
Hello, I'll need help for the Elemental Realms section for the Crisis Cosmology draft page. Can anyone help me by providing information on Morrison's or James Tynion IV's stories involving the Green, Red and Black, please?
Click to expand...
I would also appreciate if others here help Elizio33. 🙏
 
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In memory of Keith Giffen

Keith died some time ago now, but I just heard about it, and I loved his and J.M. DeMatteis' old Justice League International and Justice League Europe comic books when I was small, so I just want to say farewell and thank him for all of the entertaining stories that he created over the years...
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Elizio33 said:
Okay, so what we learn at the end of Death Metal about the multiverse becoming its own Omniverse is false?
Click to expand...
He explained it and he layers stated it again. It makes sense since he made both claims. It's pretty evident that there are other Multiverse away from the unbounded Orrery of the main Multiverse.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
He explained it and he layers stated it again. It makes sense since he made both claims. It's pretty evident that there are other Multiverse away from the unbounded Orrery of the main Multiverse.
Click to expand...
Luthor only said it once based on the truths and lies of the multiverse that he had learned during his time with the totality team, hence my confusion, but thank you for your response. 😀
 
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Misconception about the Overvoid

A couple months ago, a thread was made that removed the Overvoids non-duality, which is obviously weird considering the general attribute that described the Overvoid was that it is a non-dual void. This thread is not to say that the other thread was wrong, partially at least, it's clearing up a...
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Sup fellas. I wanted to ask sth. Is the latest Godzilla and Kong vs Justice League part of an already established canon (and scaling) or is it a completely new universe just for this crossover?
 
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Captain Atom revision/Update

With the herald tier list updates finally in progress, I'd like to throw Captain Atom's restricted state into the Ring. Currently he is listed as Solar System Level in his restricted state, which is true before Quantum Quest, but after, he still is considered one of the Top Tiers and is usually...
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This is off topic, but I think the reasoning of our DC Cosmology blog for why we decided to split the cosmology needs to be reworked and focused more on why DC's established ways like Hypertime and Metaverse don't work well to reconcile the various contradictions instead of emphasizing on the difference between cosmologies. We can also say that DC Comics has over 80 years of material and stories and that throughout these there are contradictions and continuity errors some of which cannot be reconciled together. AFTER we can says that it causes inconsistencies and massive exaggerated chain of power scaling and then explains the difference between the cosmologies.
Click to expand...
Sounds like a good suggestion. I remember there were complaints here a month or so back about the cosmology split justifications being incomplete.
 
I think the way this should be structured is:

1. Explain that the DC Universe was built with over 80 years of published material and stories and that throughout this epic journey there have been contradictions and continuity errors, some of which cannot be reconciled.

2. Explain that there have been multiple attempts to reconcile these contradictions from the concept of Hypertime, created by Grant Morrison and Mark Waid, to Jim Lee and Dan Didio's declaration that everything is canon after Jeff King's Convergence, to Geoff Johns' Metaverse, but none of them achieved this successfully (Of course, we can give a very brief explanation of the aforementioned concepts and explain more in detail why they aren't working that well to reconcile the contradictions and continuity errors). Give the example of Scott Snyder's recent attempt to reconcile the contradictions of the DC Universe and how that attempt failed literally a year later.

3. Then expand on the fact that a condensed DC Cosmology has many problems with exaggerated power scaling for many DC profiles in our wiki and end it by explaining the difference between the cosmologies and why they are not compatible.

I know it seems like a lot, but it's necessary.
 
Last edited:
Any suggestion on what the text should be based on the structure and ideas I mentioned above?
 
Here is my proposition ! Note that I'm not very good at writing well-written texts but I hope you like it and don't hesitate if I've made any mistakes. I hope I haven't made the explanation worse. 😕

The DC Multiverse is essentially a storytelling device that ties together numerous materials published over the past 80+ years. Throughout the years of publications that made up the DC Multiverse, the consistency of the verse has sparked much controversy. This is due to various changes, continuity errors, and different interpretations of them that have been written by various authors over the years.

Despite this, many efforts have been made to reconcile these various inconsistencies. In the '90s, Grant Morrison and Mark Waid created Hypertime to explain continuity errors, but it's sort of become a buzzword that writers haven't used consistently over the years, with no "official" in-universe definition. Following declining sales of the New 52, DC co-publishers Jim Lee and Dan Didio decided to vote against restricting writers to strict continuity (i.e. New 52 continuity, Post-Crisis continuity, etc.) and wanted to open up a wider playing field for potential stories by making everything canon. The problem we have been running into is that different writers often write independently of each other, adding new concepts to the older ones while ignoring or only somewhat acknowledging the works of the other writers. This is not always the case, as some writers pay considerable attention to the works of certain other authors, but even then there are some degrees of independence.

There have been other attempts to explain the changes, notably with the Metaverse with which Geoff Johns came to shed light on the various changes taking place in the DC Multiverse or Scott Snyder's attempt to undo the contradictions of the DCU with the end of Death Metal, which not only gave importance to every DC story, but the multiverse also became its own sort of Omniverse, but that was changed literally a year later with Dark Crisis which tampered with all of that.

Regardless, the above circumstances cause the following problems:

  • Chain-scaling issues: Several characters have derived their statistics from complicated chains of power scaling based on various distinct iterations of the cosmology that do not fit with each other, leading to ratings that do not fit with many of their storylines. For example, Perpetua of the Rebirth continuity does not fit DeMatteis' interpretation of the DCU as his vision is a different from Scott Snyder and Grant Morrison's throughout 21 despite some similarities.
  • Incongruent Ratings: For example, many of DC's cosmic entities are rated tier 1, even 1-A, even though these characters have never demonstrated a power level that high in any of their stories. Through scaling across different versions of the cosmology, they end up with a rating that is incongruent with their true power level as written.
  • Incompatibilities: Different authors have written incompatible versions of the cosmology regarding different dimensions and higher realms, in terms of how they are defined and fundamentally function. Sometimes, although this is not always the case, certain authors tend to contradict themselves. For example, Grant Morrison's previous stories described the Fifth Dimension as a higher mathematical dimension while in other stories he described it as an imagination. In James Tynion's stories the Great Darkness is the Dark Sphere of the Gods around the Dark Multiverse while in more recent stories by Joshua Williamson, the Great Darkness is a Primordial Darkness that predates even the Overvoid.
 
Last edited:
Elizio33 said:
Here is my proposition ! Note that I'm not very good at writing well-written texts but I hope you like it and don't hesitate if I've made any mistakes. I hope I haven't made the explanation worse. 😕

The DC Multiverse is essentially a storytelling device that ties together numerous materials published over the past 80+ years. Throughout the years of publications that made up the DC Multiverse, the consistency of the verse has sparked much controversy. This is due to various changes, continuity errors, and different interpretations of them that have been written by various authors over the years.

Despite this, many efforts have been made to reconcile these various inconsistencies. In the '90s, Grant Morrison and Mark Waid created Hypertime to explain continuity errors, but it's sort of become a buzzword that writers haven't used consistently over the years, with no "official" in-universe definition. Following declining sales of the New 52, DC co-publishers Jim Lee and Dan Didio decided to vote against restricting writers to strict continuity (i.e. New 52 continuity, Post-Crisis continuity, etc.) and wanted to open up a wider playing field for potential stories by making everything canon. The problem we have been running into is that different writers often write independently of each other, adding new concepts to the older ones while ignoring or only somewhat acknowledging the works of the other writers. This is not always the case, as some writers pay considerable attention to the works of certain other authors, but even then there are some degrees of independence.

There have been other attempts to explain the changes, notably with the Metaverse with which Geoff Johns came to shed light on the various changes taking place in the DC Multiverse or Scott Snyder's attempt to undo the contradictions of the DCU with the end of Death Metal, which not only gave importance to every DC story, but the multiverse also became its own sort of Omniverse, but that was changed literally a year later with Dark Crisis which tampered with all of that.

Regardless, the above circumstances cause the following problems:

  • Chain-scaling issues: Several characters have derived their statistics from complicated chains of power scaling based on various distinct iterations of the cosmology that do not fit with each other, leading to ratings that do not fit with many of their storylines. For example, Perpetua of the Rebirth continuity does not fit DeMatteis' interpretation of the DCU as his vision is a different from Scott Snyder and Grant Morrison's throughout 21 despite some similarities.
  • Incongruent Ratings: For example, many of DC's cosmic entities are rated tier 1, even 1-A, even though these characters have never demonstrated a power level that high in any of their stories. Through scaling across different versions of the cosmology, they end up with a rating that is incongruent with their true power level as written.
  • Incompatibilities: Different authors have written incompatible versions of the cosmology regarding different dimensions and higher realms, in terms of how they are defined and fundamentally function. Sometimes, although this is not always the case, certain authors tend to contradict themselves. For example, Grant Morrison's previous stories described the Fifth Dimension as a higher mathematical dimension while in other stories he described it as an imagination. In James Tynion's stories the Great Darkness is the Dark Sphere of the Gods around the Dark Multiverse while in more recent stories by Joshua Williamson, the Great Darkness is a Primordial Darkness that predates even the Overvoid.
Click to expand...
This problem goes to pretty much every other stories with separate canons. Sure, you can argue DC suffer the most from this due to the differences in writing but this should apply to most things.
 
Elizio33 said:
Here is my proposition ! Note that I'm not very good at writing well-written texts but I hope you like it and don't hesitate if I've made any mistakes. I hope I haven't made the explanation worse. 😕

The DC Multiverse is essentially a storytelling device that ties together numerous materials published over the past 80+ years. Throughout the years of publications that made up the DC Multiverse, the consistency of the verse has sparked much controversy. This is due to various changes, continuity errors, and different interpretations of them that have been written by various authors over the years.

Despite this, many efforts have been made to reconcile these various inconsistencies. In the '90s, Grant Morrison and Mark Waid created Hypertime to explain continuity errors, but it's sort of become a buzzword that writers haven't used consistently over the years, with no "official" in-universe definition. Following declining sales of the New 52, DC co-publishers Jim Lee and Dan Didio decided to vote against restricting writers to strict continuity (i.e. New 52 continuity, Post-Crisis continuity, etc.) and wanted to open up a wider playing field for potential stories by making everything canon. The problem we have been running into is that different writers often write independently of each other, adding new concepts to the older ones while ignoring or only somewhat acknowledging the works of the other writers. This is not always the case, as some writers pay considerable attention to the works of certain other authors, but even then there are some degrees of independence.

There have been other attempts to explain the changes, notably with the Metaverse with which Geoff Johns came to shed light on the various changes taking place in the DC Multiverse or Scott Snyder's attempt to undo the contradictions of the DCU with the end of Death Metal, which not only gave importance to every DC story, but the multiverse also became its own sort of Omniverse, but that was changed literally a year later with Dark Crisis which tampered with all of that.

Regardless, the above circumstances cause the following problems:

  • Chain-scaling issues: Several characters have derived their statistics from complicated chains of power scaling based on various distinct iterations of the cosmology that do not fit with each other, leading to ratings that do not fit with many of their storylines. For example, Perpetua of the Rebirth continuity does not fit DeMatteis' interpretation of the DCU as his vision is a different from Scott Snyder and Grant Morrison's throughout 21 despite some similarities.
  • Incongruent Ratings: For example, many of DC's cosmic entities are rated tier 1, even 1-A, even though these characters have never demonstrated a power level that high in any of their stories. Through scaling across different versions of the cosmology, they end up with a rating that is incongruent with their true power level as written.
  • Incompatibilities: Different authors have written incompatible versions of the cosmology regarding different dimensions and higher realms, in terms of how they are defined and fundamentally function. Sometimes, although this is not always the case, certain authors tend to contradict themselves. For example, Grant Morrison's previous stories described the Fifth Dimension as a higher mathematical dimension while in other stories he described it as an imagination. In James Tynion's stories the Great Darkness is the Dark Sphere of the Gods around the Dark Multiverse while in more recent stories by Joshua Williamson, the Great Darkness is a Primordial Darkness that predates even the Overvoid.
Click to expand...

@Deagonx @DarkDragonMedeus @ProfectusInfinity @Antvasima thoughts ?
 
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