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General DC Comics Discussion Thread

Yeah but these were the infinite universes that Pariah 'brought back'. I was talking about the supposedly infinite web of multiverses mentioned at the end of Death Metal and Infinite Frontier.
I'm almost positive that Barry found those before his encounter with Pariah. It just wasn't revealed until Dark Crisis Big Bang for whatever reason. This was the results he found beforehand. At least from the context of Dark Crisis since the comic happens before the ending of the event where Pariah brings them back. Especially since Earth 66 and 789 was there when he fought Anti Monitor. Though I could be wrong.

Edit: So, I checked, and you were correct. That's bizarre. I could have sworn this happened before hand. That said, I recall Spectre and the rest telling Wonder Woman that there were countless universes now in Infinite Frontier issue 0. Problem is now the Barry and Pariah thing.
 
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I'm almost positive that Barry found those before his encounter with Pariah. It just wasn't revealed until Dark Crisis Big Bang for whatever reason. This was the results he found beforehand. At least from the context of Dark Crisis since the comic happens before the ending of the event where Pariah brings them back. Especially since Earth 66 and 789 was there when he fought Anti Monitor. Though I could be wrong.

Edit: So, I checked, and you were correct. That's bizarre. I could have sworn this happened before hand. That said, I recall Spectre and the rest telling Wonder Woman that there were countless universes now in Infinite Frontier issue 0. Problem is now the Barry and Pariah thing.
Yeah, I don't really know how to handle this, I either delete the new multiversal iteration or ignore Luthor's statement.
 
Hello, I'll need help for the Elemental Realms section for the Crisis Cosmology draft page. Can anyone help me by providing information on Morrison's or James Tynion IV's stories involving the Green, Red and Black, please?
I would also appreciate if others here help Elizio33. 🙏
 
 
Okay, so what we learn at the end of Death Metal about the multiverse becoming its own Omniverse is false?
He explained it and he layers stated it again. It makes sense since he made both claims. It's pretty evident that there are other Multiverse away from the unbounded Orrery of the main Multiverse.
 
He explained it and he layers stated it again. It makes sense since he made both claims. It's pretty evident that there are other Multiverse away from the unbounded Orrery of the main Multiverse.
Luthor only said it once based on the truths and lies of the multiverse that he had learned during his time with the totality team, hence my confusion, but thank you for your response. 😀
 
 
Sup fellas. I wanted to ask sth. Is the latest Godzilla and Kong vs Justice League part of an already established canon (and scaling) or is it a completely new universe just for this crossover?
 
 
I think the way this should be structured is:

1. Explain that the DC Universe was built with over 80 years of published material and stories and that throughout this epic journey there have been contradictions and continuity errors, some of which cannot be reconciled.

2. Explain that there have been multiple attempts to reconcile these contradictions from the concept of Hypertime, created by Grant Morrison and Mark Waid, to Jim Lee and Dan Didio's declaration that everything is canon after Jeff King's Convergence, to Geoff Johns' Metaverse, but none of them achieved this successfully (Of course, we can give a very brief explanation of the aforementioned concepts and explain more in detail why they aren't working that well to reconcile the contradictions and continuity errors). Give the example of Scott Snyder's recent attempt to reconcile the contradictions of the DC Universe and how that attempt failed literally a year later.

3. Then expand on the fact that a condensed DC Cosmology has many problems with exaggerated power scaling for many DC profiles in our wiki and end it by explaining the difference between the cosmologies and why they are not compatible.

I know it seems like a lot, but it's necessary.
 
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Any suggestion on what the text should be based on the structure and ideas I mentioned above?
 
Here is my proposition ! Note that I'm not very good at writing well-written texts but I hope you like it and don't hesitate if I've made any mistakes. I hope I haven't made the explanation worse. 😕

The DC Multiverse is essentially a storytelling device that ties together numerous materials published over the past 80+ years. Throughout the years of publications that made up the DC Multiverse, the consistency of the verse has sparked much controversy. This is due to various changes, continuity errors, and different interpretations of them that have been written by various authors over the years.

Despite this, many efforts have been made to reconcile these various inconsistencies. In the '90s, Grant Morrison and Mark Waid created Hypertime to explain continuity errors, but it's sort of become a buzzword that writers haven't used consistently over the years, with no "official" in-universe definition. Following declining sales of the New 52, DC co-publishers Jim Lee and Dan Didio decided to vote against restricting writers to strict continuity (i.e. New 52 continuity, Post-Crisis continuity, etc.) and wanted to open up a wider playing field for potential stories by making everything canon. The problem we have been running into is that different writers often write independently of each other, adding new concepts to the older ones while ignoring or only somewhat acknowledging the works of the other writers. This is not always the case, as some writers pay considerable attention to the works of certain other authors, but even then there are some degrees of independence.

There have been other attempts to explain the changes, notably with the Metaverse with which Geoff Johns came to shed light on the various changes taking place in the DC Multiverse or Scott Snyder's attempt to undo the contradictions of the DCU with the end of Death Metal, which not only gave importance to every DC story, but the multiverse also became its own sort of Omniverse, but that was changed literally a year later with Dark Crisis which tampered with all of that.

Regardless, the above circumstances cause the following problems:

  • Chain-scaling issues: Several characters have derived their statistics from complicated chains of power scaling based on various distinct iterations of the cosmology that do not fit with each other, leading to ratings that do not fit with many of their storylines. For example, Perpetua of the Rebirth continuity does not fit DeMatteis' interpretation of the DCU as his vision is a different from Scott Snyder and Grant Morrison's throughout 21 despite some similarities.
  • Incongruent Ratings: For example, many of DC's cosmic entities are rated tier 1, even 1-A, even though these characters have never demonstrated a power level that high in any of their stories. Through scaling across different versions of the cosmology, they end up with a rating that is incongruent with their true power level as written.
  • Incompatibilities: Different authors have written incompatible versions of the cosmology regarding different dimensions and higher realms, in terms of how they are defined and fundamentally function. Sometimes, although this is not always the case, certain authors tend to contradict themselves. For example, Grant Morrison's previous stories described the Fifth Dimension as a higher mathematical dimension while in other stories he described it as an imagination. In James Tynion's stories the Great Darkness is the Dark Sphere of the Gods around the Dark Multiverse while in more recent stories by Joshua Williamson, the Great Darkness is a Primordial Darkness that predates even the Overvoid.
 
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Here is my proposition ! Note that I'm not very good at writing well-written texts but I hope you like it and don't hesitate if I've made any mistakes. I hope I haven't made the explanation worse. 😕

The DC Multiverse is essentially a storytelling device that ties together numerous materials published over the past 80+ years. Throughout the years of publications that made up the DC Multiverse, the consistency of the verse has sparked much controversy. This is due to various changes, continuity errors, and different interpretations of them that have been written by various authors over the years.

Despite this, many efforts have been made to reconcile these various inconsistencies. In the '90s, Grant Morrison and Mark Waid created Hypertime to explain continuity errors, but it's sort of become a buzzword that writers haven't used consistently over the years, with no "official" in-universe definition. Following declining sales of the New 52, DC co-publishers Jim Lee and Dan Didio decided to vote against restricting writers to strict continuity (i.e. New 52 continuity, Post-Crisis continuity, etc.) and wanted to open up a wider playing field for potential stories by making everything canon. The problem we have been running into is that different writers often write independently of each other, adding new concepts to the older ones while ignoring or only somewhat acknowledging the works of the other writers. This is not always the case, as some writers pay considerable attention to the works of certain other authors, but even then there are some degrees of independence.

There have been other attempts to explain the changes, notably with the Metaverse with which Geoff Johns came to shed light on the various changes taking place in the DC Multiverse or Scott Snyder's attempt to undo the contradictions of the DCU with the end of Death Metal, which not only gave importance to every DC story, but the multiverse also became its own sort of Omniverse, but that was changed literally a year later with Dark Crisis which tampered with all of that.

Regardless, the above circumstances cause the following problems:

  • Chain-scaling issues: Several characters have derived their statistics from complicated chains of power scaling based on various distinct iterations of the cosmology that do not fit with each other, leading to ratings that do not fit with many of their storylines. For example, Perpetua of the Rebirth continuity does not fit DeMatteis' interpretation of the DCU as his vision is a different from Scott Snyder and Grant Morrison's throughout 21 despite some similarities.
  • Incongruent Ratings: For example, many of DC's cosmic entities are rated tier 1, even 1-A, even though these characters have never demonstrated a power level that high in any of their stories. Through scaling across different versions of the cosmology, they end up with a rating that is incongruent with their true power level as written.
  • Incompatibilities: Different authors have written incompatible versions of the cosmology regarding different dimensions and higher realms, in terms of how they are defined and fundamentally function. Sometimes, although this is not always the case, certain authors tend to contradict themselves. For example, Grant Morrison's previous stories described the Fifth Dimension as a higher mathematical dimension while in other stories he described it as an imagination. In James Tynion's stories the Great Darkness is the Dark Sphere of the Gods around the Dark Multiverse while in more recent stories by Joshua Williamson, the Great Darkness is a Primordial Darkness that predates even the Overvoid.
This problem goes to pretty much every other stories with separate canons. Sure, you can argue DC suffer the most from this due to the differences in writing but this should apply to most things.
 
Here is my proposition ! Note that I'm not very good at writing well-written texts but I hope you like it and don't hesitate if I've made any mistakes. I hope I haven't made the explanation worse. 😕

The DC Multiverse is essentially a storytelling device that ties together numerous materials published over the past 80+ years. Throughout the years of publications that made up the DC Multiverse, the consistency of the verse has sparked much controversy. This is due to various changes, continuity errors, and different interpretations of them that have been written by various authors over the years.

Despite this, many efforts have been made to reconcile these various inconsistencies. In the '90s, Grant Morrison and Mark Waid created Hypertime to explain continuity errors, but it's sort of become a buzzword that writers haven't used consistently over the years, with no "official" in-universe definition. Following declining sales of the New 52, DC co-publishers Jim Lee and Dan Didio decided to vote against restricting writers to strict continuity (i.e. New 52 continuity, Post-Crisis continuity, etc.) and wanted to open up a wider playing field for potential stories by making everything canon. The problem we have been running into is that different writers often write independently of each other, adding new concepts to the older ones while ignoring or only somewhat acknowledging the works of the other writers. This is not always the case, as some writers pay considerable attention to the works of certain other authors, but even then there are some degrees of independence.

There have been other attempts to explain the changes, notably with the Metaverse with which Geoff Johns came to shed light on the various changes taking place in the DC Multiverse or Scott Snyder's attempt to undo the contradictions of the DCU with the end of Death Metal, which not only gave importance to every DC story, but the multiverse also became its own sort of Omniverse, but that was changed literally a year later with Dark Crisis which tampered with all of that.

Regardless, the above circumstances cause the following problems:

  • Chain-scaling issues: Several characters have derived their statistics from complicated chains of power scaling based on various distinct iterations of the cosmology that do not fit with each other, leading to ratings that do not fit with many of their storylines. For example, Perpetua of the Rebirth continuity does not fit DeMatteis' interpretation of the DCU as his vision is a different from Scott Snyder and Grant Morrison's throughout 21 despite some similarities.
  • Incongruent Ratings: For example, many of DC's cosmic entities are rated tier 1, even 1-A, even though these characters have never demonstrated a power level that high in any of their stories. Through scaling across different versions of the cosmology, they end up with a rating that is incongruent with their true power level as written.
  • Incompatibilities: Different authors have written incompatible versions of the cosmology regarding different dimensions and higher realms, in terms of how they are defined and fundamentally function. Sometimes, although this is not always the case, certain authors tend to contradict themselves. For example, Grant Morrison's previous stories described the Fifth Dimension as a higher mathematical dimension while in other stories he described it as an imagination. In James Tynion's stories the Great Darkness is the Dark Sphere of the Gods around the Dark Multiverse while in more recent stories by Joshua Williamson, the Great Darkness is a Primordial Darkness that predates even the Overvoid.

@Deagonx @DarkDragonMedeus @ProfectusInfinity @Antvasima thoughts ?
 
If the goal is to prepare a response for any "wasn't everything made canon several times" concerns, it's perfect. If I had to make suggestions only, here's how I might personally reword some things here and there.
Despite this, many efforts have been made to reconcile these various inconsistencies. For instance, Grant Morrison and Mark Waid created Hypertime in the '90s to explain multiple continuity errors away, but the concept has been used so inconsistently by writers over the years, it's devolved into a buzzword with no "official" in-universe definition. In another attempt, following the declining sales of the New 52, DC co-publishers Jim Lee and Dan Didio voted against constraining writers to strict continuity (i.e. New 52 continuity, Post-Crisis continuity, etc.) as they believed making everything canon would broaden the scope for potential stories. The issue surrounding these integrations however, is that different authors write independently of each other, often adding new concepts to the older works in general disregard of older writers' content. Though cases will arise where certain writers strive to preserve the integrity of older authors' works, irreconcilable disruptions in continuity are far more conventional for the DC Multiverse.

There have been other attempts to explain the disruptions, such as with Geoff Johns' Metaverse which aimed to rationalize the various changes taking place in the DC Multiverse. There was also Scott Snyder's attempt to undo the contradictions of the DCU with the end of Death Metal, which assembled and highlighted every DC storyline, transforming the multiverse into its own sort of Omniverse. However, even that effort was sullied within a literal year under the retcons of Dark Crisis.

All in all, the above circumstances have created the following irreconcilable difficulties:
 
The goal was more to reinforce the already existing argument about why we decided to split the cosmologies, as I felt it put too much emphasis on the difference between cosmologies and scaling issues. The current argument on our DC Cosmology blog is a good one but doesn't even mention the ways DC tried to reconcile contradictions and continuity errors and why they didn't work so well, which opened the door to counter-arguments using statements from DC editors and writers or Hypertime. Or just attempt to reconcile the differences between cosmologies.
 
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Here is my proposition ! Note that I'm not very good at writing well-written texts but I hope you like it and don't hesitate if I've made any mistakes. I hope I haven't made the explanation worse. 😕

The DC Multiverse is essentially a storytelling device that ties together numerous materials published over the past 80+ years. Throughout the years of publications that made up the DC Multiverse, the consistency of the verse has sparked much controversy. This is due to various changes, continuity errors, and different interpretations of them that have been written by various authors over the years.

Despite this, many efforts have been made to reconcile these various inconsistencies. In the '90s, Grant Morrison and Mark Waid created Hypertime to explain continuity errors, but it's sort of become a buzzword that writers haven't used consistently over the years, with no "official" in-universe definition. Following declining sales of the New 52, DC co-publishers Jim Lee and Dan Didio decided to vote against restricting writers to strict continuity (i.e. New 52 continuity, Post-Crisis continuity, etc.) and wanted to open up a wider playing field for potential stories by making everything canon. The problem we have been running into is that different writers often write independently of each other, adding new concepts to the older ones while ignoring or only somewhat acknowledging the works of the other writers. This is not always the case, as some writers pay considerable attention to the works of certain other authors, but even then there are some degrees of independence.

There have been other attempts to explain the changes, notably with the Metaverse with which Geoff Johns came to shed light on the various changes taking place in the DC Multiverse or Scott Snyder's attempt to undo the contradictions of the DCU with the end of Death Metal, which not only gave importance to every DC story, but the multiverse also became its own sort of Omniverse, but that was changed literally a year later with Dark Crisis which tampered with all of that.

Regardless, the above circumstances cause the following problems:

  • Chain-scaling issues: Several characters have derived their statistics from complicated chains of power scaling based on various distinct iterations of the cosmology that do not fit with each other, leading to ratings that do not fit with many of their storylines. For example, Perpetua of the Rebirth continuity does not fit DeMatteis' interpretation of the DCU as his vision is a different from Scott Snyder and Grant Morrison's throughout 21 despite some similarities.
  • Incongruent Ratings: For example, many of DC's cosmic entities are rated tier 1, even 1-A, even though these characters have never demonstrated a power level that high in any of their stories. Through scaling across different versions of the cosmology, they end up with a rating that is incongruent with their true power level as written.
  • Incompatibilities: Different authors have written incompatible versions of the cosmology regarding different dimensions and higher realms, in terms of how they are defined and fundamentally function. Sometimes, although this is not always the case, certain authors tend to contradict themselves. For example, Grant Morrison's previous stories described the Fifth Dimension as a higher mathematical dimension while in other stories he described it as an imagination. In James Tynion's stories the Great Darkness is the Dark Sphere of the Gods around the Dark Multiverse while in more recent stories by Joshua Williamson, the Great Darkness is a Primordial Darkness that predates even the Overvoid.
To be clear, is this [the quoted spoiler] the "arguments" for why these reconciliations don't work, or are there going to be threads made to explain why exactly these reconciliations don't work with reasons debunking them bit-by-bit?
 
@Deagonx since that thread was closed, I'll answer here.
Please attempt to explain where Pralaya and Mother Night exist in the cosmology in relation to the Overvoid, Perpetua, the Monitors, and other elements of the Crisis Cosmology, if we are meant to believe that they all share a singular cosmology.

Pralaya exists in Bleedspace as unbeing, transcending material plane and MN in Sphere of the gods. Why? Pralaya don't achieved something bigger than just transcending material plane (she personifies the world, which is simply primary to the material plane). Mother Night exists on the same
existential level of being as Endless and other gods in SOG.
 
@Deagonx since that thread was closed, I'll answer here.
Please attempt to explain where Pralaya and Mother Night exist in the cosmology in relation to the Overvoid, Perpetua, the Monitors, and other elements of the Crisis Cosmology, if we are meant to believe that they all share a singular cosmology.

Pralaya exists in Bleedspace as unbeing, transcending material plane and MN in Sphere of the gods. Why? Pralaya don't achieved something bigger than just transcending material plane (she personifies the world, which is simply primary to the material plane). Mother Night exists on the same
existential level of being as Endless and other gods in SOG.
The big issue here is that this is entirely headcanon. You will find no mention of the Bleedspace in any comic with Pralaya, you will find no mention of Pralaya in any comic with Bleedspace. There's also no reference to a "Sphere of the Gods" in comics with Mother Night.

We can decide -- as comic readers -- to attempt to unify these different cosmologies into some Frankenstein composite DC, but all of our solutions will ultimately be ad-hoc headcanon, which is why it's not likely to get rubber stamped on a website like ours.
 
To be clear, is this [the quoted spoiler] the "arguments" for why these reconciliations don't work, or are there going to be threads made to explain why exactly these reconciliations don't work with reasons debunking them bit-by-bit?
Bump
 
To be clear, is this [the quoted spoiler] the "arguments" for why these reconciliations don't work, or are there going to be threads made to explain why exactly these reconciliations don't work with reasons debunking them bit-by-bit?
They just don't actually address the issue at hand, and they were not designed for the kinds of issues we are dealing with in regards to being an indexing website. Saying "well both of these things are true despite being a contradiction because of the metaverse" doesn't really help us make a concrete decision about scaling when the decision we make is different depending on which one is actually true.
 
They just don't actually address the issue at hand, and they were not designed for the kinds of issues we are dealing with in regards to being an indexing website. Saying "well both of these things are true despite being a contradiction because of the metaverse" doesn't really help us make a concrete decision about scaling when the decision we make is different depending on which one is actually true.
Are you guys going to explain why it does not?
 
A complete composite cosmology would only really be possible if current canons took precedence over older ones, so most of the works of Neil Gaiman, Mike Carey, J.M. DeMatteis, and several others would have to be abandoned altogether since most of them don't fit into current canon and some concepts or characters that were seemingly "exclusive" to certain authors' stories like Pralaya or Mother Night or Crisis/Connective Energy, should also be discarded.

Personally I think it's best to split them up because like @Deagonx said there are elements from the different stories that just don't match and trying to reconcile them using headcanon to patch the holes is not the best solution for us.
 
Its not really in the contradictions themselves, it's in the cosmology itself, it delves into the inner workings of DC as a narrative multiple times. Marvel for example has reconciled contradictions by simply acknowledging how some realms exist above stories as a whole, the House of Ideas obviously being a prominent example.

There are multiple different realms in DC that acknowledge DC as one narrative, that acknowledge contradictions, and are seen messing with narratives multiple times. Dax Novu for example witnessed the introduction of the Multiverse to DC Comics, the Monitors catalogue all DC stories, Mxyzptlk removing imagination reducing the comics to sketches, the Death Sun is the end of all stories. These are just examples off the top of my head.

Edit: yay 2000th message
 
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