General DC Comics Discussion Thread

[Brahmatman]

Question, are we gonna merge The Presence, The Source and Overvoid profile? seen this topic a while ago on this thread, but its never done

These are different characters. And The Presence's name is Yahweh

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

How about this?

1. Merge Monitor-Mind the Overvoid, the Presence, and the Source into one page for the Light from the crisis cosmology.
2. Make two separate profiles for DeMattis's DP and Vertigo's Presence.

This is being handled after the Crisis cosmology is finalized.

 

[Jolman1]

Bleedspace is present in John's comics. Secondly, I start from the scale and concept of the character, so that MT exists in the SOG is more than obvious.

@Deagonx ?

 

[Elizio33]

The big issue here is that this is entirely headcanon. You will find no mention of the Bleedspace in any comic with Pralaya, you will find no mention of Pralaya in any comic with Bleedspace. There's also no reference to a "Sphere of the Gods" in comics with Mother Night.

We can decide -- as comic readers -- to attempt to unify these different cosmologies into some Frankenstein composite DC, but all of our solutions will ultimately be ad-hoc headcanon, which is why it's not likely to get rubber stamped on a website like ours.

I completely agree with this. While Dan Didio and Jim Lee's "canon over continuity" ideology gave DC writers more freedom to write their stories without any strict continuity, it was quite a mess in terms of constructing a coherent cosmology, hence why I find that "continuity over canon" would be more appropriate for this situation. Yes, there were ways to reconcile the canons, but those means themselves have been used inconsistently by writers over the years, Hypertime being a good example. Some of Morrison's ideas for Hypertime are now obsolete and most of them weren't even mentioned in the comics (or they were very vague mentions), although some still work well, but most have been abandoned. A composite cosmology might not work very well as there are notable contradictions and using the headcanon to try to reconcile them is not the best option in my opinion, it would mean eliminating the works of certain authors like most old stories of Neil Gaiman, Mike Carey, DeMatteis and some others, since most of their information is outdated compared to current canon.

And I also don't believe in the idea that every universe of the Orrery is a multiverse/continuity just because Neil Gaiman's Sandman was mentioned in Grant Morrison's Multiversity. If anything, it was nothing more than a nod to Neil Gaiman. I think it was pretty clear that the Orrery was supposed to limit the multiverse to just fifty-two universes, with infinite universes existing somewhere outside of the Orrery. Even Jeff King's Convergence seems to have been retconned over the years, most notably with Dark Crisis on Infinite Earths, as the Pre-Crisis Multiverse was returned due to the heroes being sent back in time to defeat the Anti-Monitor during Convergence while in Dark Crisis, the Pre-Crisis Multiverse was still in ruins and separated from the Orrery. At this point we should let the cosmologies separated, although as a "Crisis Cosmology" is in work with the most notable works of authors throughout the 21st century, we should create another with the cosmology of J.M. DeMatteis and those of other authors that should be more consistent with that of DeMatteis' works, such as Allen Moore for example.

Edit: Of course, this is my personal opinion on the subject, but I feel like smaller composite cosmologies for DC, like Crisis Cosmology, would be a better idea than trying to create a "Frankenstein DC Cosmology" with every material and story and using headcanons or sources vaguely or not mentioned in the comics to try to reconcile the holes.

 

[Excellence616]

Separating cosmologies is irrelevant

Dc canon Event multiversity created by Grant Morrison, it tells the story of a fictional comic in their own EARTH, but the comic is a reality in another EARTHs. •Vertigo Canon vertigo comics in the DCU °The reason all these stories are canon is because of the omniverse, the omniverse not only...

vsbattles.com

another cosmology thread for Dc

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

@Antvasima @Deagonx @ProfectusInfinity @Elizio33 Should we make a discussion rule against DeMattis cosmology upgrades? They're becoming repetitive.

 

[Deagonx]

@Antvasima @Deagonx @ProfectusInfinity @Elizio33 Should we make a discussion rule against DeMattis cosmology upgrades? They're becoming repetitive.

Honestly, I'm torn. It's not that I don't think a valid argument could be made or that I don't think anyone should be allowed to explore it as a CRT, but we have a recent influx of users making very poorly formatted CRTs with unacceptably bad English posting many in quick succession and it's become very tiresome.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

@Antvasima @Deagonx @ProfectusInfinity @Elizio33 Should we make a discussion rule against DeMattis cosmology upgrades? They're becoming repetitive.

I’m fine with that. If not, then a topic ban should suffice at the bare minimum. The thing is, the combination of:

• Marvel’s massive cosmology upgrades
• Ultima’s R>F staff thread
• Superman’s recent scaling in death battle

Have caused all this hype around getting the cosmology re-upgraded regardless of accuracy. Several new users I’ve noticed, signed up for accounts recently just to create cosmology upgrade after cosmology upgrade and pick fights with staff members like Deagon and Elizio across several threads. Something must definitely be done at this point, as it’s mostly regurgitations of the exact same arguments combined with a refusal to acknowledge why these arguments aren’t accepted and adapt.

 

[Elizio33]

@Antvasima @Deagonx @ProfectusInfinity @Elizio33 Should we make a discussion rule against DeMattis cosmology upgrades? They're becoming repetitive.

Yeah, restrict them for now.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I’m fine with that. If not, then a topic ban should suffice at the bare minimum. The thing is, the combination of:

• Marvel’s massive cosmology upgrades
• Ultima’s R>F staff thread
• Superman’s recent scaling in death battle

Have caused all this hype around getting the cosmology re-upgraded regardless of accuracy. Several new users I’ve noticed, signed up for accounts recently just to create cosmology upgrade after cosmology upgrade and pick fights with staff members like Deagon and Elizio across several threads. Something must definitely be done at this point, as it’s mostly regurgitations of the exact same arguments combined with a refusal to acknowledge why these arguments aren’t accepted and adapt.

I agree, the first is a whataboutism, the second while ongoing does not look there is actual qualification to meet his criteria. And 3rd I don't need to talk about; someone attempted a Heroes Goku Vs Thought Robot to basically test its legitimacy but was closed as a stomp in one way or the other regardless of 5D Vs 6D arguments.

Discussion Rule should perhaps be made yeah.

 

[Antvasima]

I’m fine with that. If not, then a topic ban should suffice at the bare minimum. The thing is, the combination of:

• Marvel’s massive cosmology upgrades
• Ultima’s R>F staff thread
• Superman’s recent scaling in death battle

Have caused all this hype around getting the cosmology re-upgraded regardless of accuracy. Several new users I’ve noticed, signed up for accounts recently just to create cosmology upgrade after cosmology upgrade and pick fights with staff members like Deagon and Elizio across several threads. Something must definitely be done at this point, as it’s mostly regurgitations of the exact same arguments combined with a refusal to acknowledge why these arguments aren’t accepted and adapt.

I do not mind a discussion rule against rehashed threads about merging the DC Comics cosmology again, but there do seem to exist some valid points for upgrading the DeMatteis cosmology, so we should at least properly finish our discussion about that before we do anything drastic.

 

[Deleted member 30746]

We absolutely need to prevent or restrict CRT's that aim to restore and implement composite hierarchy for DC. CRT's are both inadequate and their contents are created carelessly. There are a lot of initiatives going on for this issue these days, and everyone is very tired of it. After Elizio implements the changes for Crisis Cosmology, we need to update the Vertigo blog.

 

[Brahmatman]

DC writers more freedom to write their stories without any strict continuity, it was quite a mess in terms of constructing a coherent cosmology

The usual cosmology with multiple authors, there is nothing unusual or outstanding in this, but for some reason, this problem only applies to the DC universe. And I have never seen any compelling evidence or arguments why this should apply only to her, with the exception of repeated and cliched phrases about the logic and canonicity of another universe, in which there are also contradictions and illogical compositions. If you really want to try to lower the level of cosmology by specifically dividing cosmologies into different authors, then for starters, don't try to pretend that there are no contradictions in other multi-author universes.

Some of Morrison's ideas for Hypertime are now obsolete and most of them weren't even mentioned in the comics (or they were very vague mentions), although some still work well, but most have been abandoned.

This is a favorite theme of people trying to appeal that if something is not indicated in the cosmology of one author, then it does not exist in him. Bleed was not created in DC, and has not been mentioned in past comics, but has always existed as a construct in which universes float. Some of the Endless appeared in later comics, but they also always existed and existed from the very beginning of cosmology, Destiny appeared back in 1972, although Morpheus was invented later, does this deny the existence of Morpheus in parallel with Destiny? Of course not.The problem is not that there are contradictions, but a lack of understanding that the cosmological structure is revealed as more and more recent information is released. By the way, in TES, the entire cosmology as it is at the moment was also not initially thought out, they expanded and changed, which does not prevent it from being compiled into a cosmological level.

it would mean eliminating the works of certain authors like most old stories of Neil Gaiman, Mike Carey, DeMatteis and some others, since most of their information is outdated compared to current canon.

Has anything changed much? The heavens appeared and were shown on the map. Pralaya has also appeared in some comics. Lucifer also appeared in Crisis. The fact that a newer one replaced an old one does not in any way cancel the old one. Otherwise, we can throw out all the old appearances of Darkseid and Doomsday, because Darkseid was not previously listed as Platonic Evil, and Doomsday was not a multiversal parasite resurrecting himself in the higher dimensions?

And I also don't believe in the idea that every universe of the Orrery is a multiverse/continuity just because Neil Gaiman's Sandman was mentioned in Grant Morrison's Multiversity.

Sandman originally appeared in DC. Destiny appeared in 1972. Here you need to ask a counter question, who is more canonical, Dc, which created Vertigo characters, or Vetrigo, which uses Dc characters? Yahweh or his voice appeared in Pre-Crisis DC. Does this somehow contradict Vertigo? Or will there be some clear and normal evidence that Vertigo really has a different cosmology, different from Dc?

Edit: Of course, this is my personal opinion on the subject, but I feel like smaller composite cosmologies for DC, like Crisis Cosmology, would be a better idea than trying to create a "Frankenstein DC Cosmology" with every material and story and using headcanons or sources vaguely or not mentioned in the comics to try to reconcile the holes.

This is a problem with any multi-author work. DC is so far the only universe in which I have seen a division of cosmology, turning a blind eye to other universes with multiple authors.

 

[Brahmatman]

Honestly, I'm torn. It's not that I don't think a valid argument could be made or that I don't think anyone should be allowed to explore it as a CRT, but we have a recent influx of users making very poorly formatted CRTs with unacceptably bad English posting many in quick succession and it's become very tiresome

You haven't given a single argument against the thread. You ignore and don't answer questions. And are you still dissatisfied with something?

 

[Excellence616]

Some minor resistance updates for Pre DOS Superman

I noticed Pre DOS Superman doesn't have resistance to Darkseid's Omega Beams, which is odd, so I'm gonna fix that, I'll also add another thing. Existence Erasure & Causality Manipulation (Resisted Omega Beams from Darkseid) - Action Comics #586. This should have the same reasoning as his Post...

vsbattles.com

 

[Ramasugita11]

I do not mind a discussion rule against rehashed threads about merging the DC Comics cosmology again, but there do seem to exist some valid points for upgrading the DeMatteis cosmology, so we should at least properly finish our discussion about that before we do anything drastic.

That doesn't make sense, cause the overvoid contains infinite multiverses.[Here]
Omniverse only contains 3 layers, those layers are positive-multiverse, anti-matter universe and dark multiverse. Besides DC canon, the multiverse is not just the one on the regular multiverse Map. Multiverse Vertigo has 2 versions [Carey 2000] and [Watters 2018]and is in a different multiverse too. Because it is impossible to unite the story of the sphere of the gods into one multiverse. The sphere of the gods is outside the speed force and the bleed there is only one version, There is only one DARKSEID, there is only one SPECTRE, there is only 1 the DREAM of the endless.

Because each god in the sphere of the gods has no variants, they are Singular. The universe has an infinite number but the gods have no variants.
Logically, different gods exist in different multiverses, this means that there are 2 different versions of Lucifer in the Greater Omniverse.
The greater omniverse contains the greater multiverse [omniverse] which has infinite universes/earths and the multiverses have been destroyed many times outside of the main multiverse.
[Here] [Here]

 

[Jolman1]

I’m fine with that. If not, then a topic ban should suffice at the bare minimum. The thing is, the combination of:

• Marvel’s massive cosmology upgrades
• Ultima’s R>F staff thread
• Superman’s recent scaling in death battle

Have caused all this hype around getting the cosmology re-upgraded regardless of accuracy. Several new users I’ve noticed, signed up for accounts recently just to create cosmology upgrade after cosmology upgrade and pick fights with staff members like Deagon and Elizio across several threads. Something must definitely be done at this point, as it’s mostly regurgitations of the exact same arguments combined with a refusal to acknowledge why these arguments aren’t accepted and adapt.

If these arguments were worthwhile, then fine, but when they are based on “there is no recursion, because the word “recursion” is not specified” or “the dream simply continues the previous one, without having a qualitative difference,” then people will get involved in the discussion. What else to do when nonsense is postulated?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

The usual cosmology with multiple authors, there is nothing unusual or outstanding in this, but for some reason, this problem only applies to the DC universe. And I have never seen any compelling evidence or arguments why this should apply only to her, with the exception of repeated and cliched phrases about the logic and canonicity of another universe, in which there are also contradictions and illogical compositions. If you really want to try to lower the level of cosmology by specifically dividing cosmologies into different authors, then for starters, don't try to pretend that there are no contradictions in other multi-author universes.


This is a favorite theme of people trying to appeal that if something is not indicated in the cosmology of one author, then it does not exist in him. Bleed was not created in DC, and has not been mentioned in past comics, but has always existed as a construct in which universes float. Some of the Endless appeared in later comics, but they also always existed and existed from the very beginning of cosmology, Destiny appeared back in 1972, although Morpheus was invented later, does this deny the existence of Morpheus in parallel with Destiny? Of course not.The problem is not that there are contradictions, but a lack of understanding that the cosmological structure is revealed as more and more recent information is released. By the way, in TES, the entire cosmology as it is at the moment was also not initially thought out, they expanded and changed, which does not prevent it from being compiled into a cosmological level.

Has anything changed much? The heavens appeared and were shown on the map. Pralaya has also appeared in some comics. Lucifer also appeared in Crisis. The fact that a newer one replaced an old one does not in any way cancel the old one. Otherwise, we can throw out all the old appearances of Darkseid and Doomsday, because Darkseid was not previously listed as Platonic Evil, and Doomsday was not a multiversal parasite resurrecting himself in the higher dimensions?

Sandman originally appeared in DC. Destiny appeared in 1972. Here you need to ask a counter question, who is more canonical, Dc, which created Vertigo characters, or Vetrigo, which uses Dc characters? Yahweh or his voice appeared in Pre-Crisis DC. Does this somehow contradict Vertigo? Or will there be some clear and normal evidence that Vertigo really has a different cosmology, different from Dc?

This is a problem with any multi-author work. DC is so far the only universe in which I have seen a division of cosmology, turning a blind eye to other universes with multiple authors.

You haven't given a single argument against the thread. You ignore and don't answer questions. And are you still dissatisfied with something?

You have already offered these complaints, and they weren't accepted with good reason.

 

[Ramasugita11]

You have already offered these complaints, and they weren't accepted with good reason.

The application of cosmology based on the author is not very good, because it does not consider the existence of other authors. It's better to put it together but separate what is canon for the main dcu, there are many multiverses and the concept of god in DC is different, because it is not connected directly to the monitor sphere, 5th dimension, then it is only the concept of god within the sphere of the gods.

Dream concepts like JM only exist in the sphere of the gods, not applied to the monitor sphere. The voids in the sphere of the gods also varies. Gods are born in dreaming realm and JM also told about Hindu gods.

Different concepts of creation are normal, almost all gods are creators for their people. There are many gods in the sphere of the gods, such as Buddha, Brahma, Yahweh and others.

The separation of cosmology makes it complicated,like forcing a separation of cosmologies, even though it is not a difficult problem.

Just ask, I will answer every question.

 

[PrinceStories]

The application of cosmology based on the author is not very good, because it does not consider the existence of other authors. It's better to put it together but separate what is canon for the main dcu, there are many multiverses and the concept of god in DC is different, because it is not connected directly to the monitor sphere, 5th dimension, then it is only the concept of god within the sphere of the gods.

Dream concepts like JM only exist in the sphere of the gods, not applied to the monitor sphere. The voids in the sphere of the gods also varies. Gods are born in dreaming realm and JM also told about Hindu gods.

Elizio after the holiday he will create a thread to combined some the continuity other authors such as Alan Moore which will be combined with DeMatteis cosmology and also recently he has combined DC cosmology with every crisis event like C.O.I.E, zero hour, infinite crisis, final crisis, metal event and dark crisis.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

The application of cosmology based on the author is not very good, because it does not consider the existence of other authors. It's better to put it together but separate what is canon for the main dcu, there are many multiverses and the concept of god in DC is different, because it is not connected directly to the monitor sphere, 5th dimension, then it is only the concept of god within the sphere of the gods.

Dream concepts like JM only exist in the sphere of the gods, not applied to the monitor sphere. The voids in the sphere of the gods also varies. Gods are born in dreaming realm and JM also told about Hindu gods.

Different concepts of creation are normal, almost all gods are creators for their people. There are many gods in the sphere of the gods, such as Buddha, Brahma, Yahweh and others.

The separation of cosmology makes it complicated,like forcing a separation of cosmologies, even though it is not a difficult problem.

Just ask, I will answer every question.

This is a poorly formatted mess of rehashing rejected arguments. "Just ask, I will answer every question" is a display of arrogance.

 

[Ramasugita11]

Elizio after the holiday he will create a thread to combined some the continuity other authors such as Alan Moore which will be combined with DeMatteis cosmology and also recently he has combined DC cosmology with every crisis event like C.O.I.E, zero hour, infinite crisis, final crisis, metal event and dark crisis.

Great, I like it

This is a poorly formatted mess of rehashing rejected arguments. "Just ask, I will answer every question" is a display of arrogance.

No, just wondering what makes it uncombinable.
if you use a cosmology blog, it's just a forced thing

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

No, just wondering what makes it uncombinable.

@Deagonx @Elizio33 @Antvasima

 

[PrinceStories]

No, just wondering what makes it uncombinable

Before Elizio has already said that DC cosmology combined with all authors that will really give birth to a lot of contradictions in each comics, even with Morrison's hypertime ideas and the Metaverse it's still not enough to reconcile any existing contradictions so he prefers to separate cosmology with each authors but if that is not satisfactory then splitting the continuity with each event is a suitable one.

 

[Ramasugita11]

Before Elizio has already said that DC cosmology combined with all authors that will really give birth to a lot of contradictions in each comics, even with Morrison's hypertime ideas and the Metaverse it's still not enough to reconcile any existing contradictions so he prefers to separate cosmology with each authors but if that is not satisfactory then splitting the continuity with each event is a suitable one.

That's his opinion, 4 Dimensions is not entirely about physics/geometry but also metaphysics

 

[Antvasima]

Our DC Comics Cosmology page quite extensively details irreconcileable differences between different cosmologies, so we cannot stack them on top of each other just for the purpose of getting as illogically high results as possible.

Also, we have already extensively discussed these issues previously, and cannot continue to do so over and over and over.

 

[Elizio33]

Elizio after the holiday he will create a thread to combined some the continuity other authors such as Alan Moore which will be combined with DeMatteis cosmology and also recently he has combined DC cosmology with every crisis event like C.O.I.E, zero hour, infinite crisis, final crisis, metal event and dark crisis.

Yep.

 

[Elizio33]

As @PrinceStories told me, the "Spiritual Cosmology" for the eventual cosmology of DeMatteis, Moore and a few others should be a good name for this.

 

[PrinceStories]

Yep.

I'm always ready to wait

 

[Elizio33]

I'm always ready to wait

Like i said, after the holidays, we could focus for the Spiritual Cosmology

 

[PrinceStories]

Like i said, after the holidays, we could focus for the Spiritual Cosmology

No problem for now we can discuss source material for spiritual cosmology after you are done with the holidays, and I would also like to see responses from knowledgeable members and staff regarding the naming spiritual cosmology.

 

[Elizio33]

No problem for now we can discuss source material for spiritual cosmology after you are done with the holidays, and I would also like to see responses from knowledgeable members and staff regarding the naming spiritual cosmology.

Sure! We need the maximum of source materials.

 

[Antvasima]

Yep.

I do not think that DeMatteis and Alan Moore seem to have the same type of religious worldviews at all. The former is a disciple of Meher Baba, who DeMatteis thinks is an Enlightened being, and the second is a long practitioner of spiritual magic.

 

[Elizio33]

I do not think that DeMatteis and Alan Moore seem to have the same type of religious worldviews at all. The former is a disciple of Meher Baba, who DeMatteis thinks is an Enlightened being, and the second is a long practitioner of spiritual magic.

Well, I haven't read many of Alan Moore's stories, so I might be wrong, but from what I've read, they seems in line with what DeMatteis established in his stories.

 

[PrinceStories]

I do not think that DeMatteis and Alan Moore seem to have the same type of religious worldviews at all. The former is a disciple of Meher Baba, who DeMatteis thinks is an Enlightened being, and the second is a long practitioner of spiritual magic.

having different views doesn't mean it can't be combined, what's more I also talked about this with Elizio that will also combined vertigo cosmology between pre black label and black label. Moreover on DC Vertigo black label brings material from DeMatteis and Moore such as Sea of Brahma and The Great Darkness.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay then. I am not sure about this though. Hinduism and dark or grey magic partially based on Christianity seem badly suited for a complete combination.

 

[Asterotheology]

I do not think that DeMatteis and Alan Moore seem to have the same type of religious worldviews at all. The former is a disciple of Meher Baba, who DeMatteis thinks is an Enlightened being, and the second is a long practitioner of spiritual magic.

I share the same thoughts as this. You can find plenty of ways to combine a lot of things in DC. Doesn't mean you should. DeMatteis cosmology is perfectly consistent and fine on it's on. Adding other things only inflates the tiers of those additional works.

 

[Antvasima]

I share the same thoughts as this. You can find plenty of ways to combine a lot of things in DC. Doesn't mean you should. DeMatteis cosmology is perfectly consistent and fine on it's on. Adding other things only inflates the tiers of those additional works.

I agree with this.

 

[Ramasugita11]

Our DC Comics Cosmology page quite extensively details irreconcileable differences between different cosmologies, so we cannot stack them on top of each other just for the purpose of getting as illogically high results as possible.

Also, we have already extensively discussed these issues previously, and cannot continue to do so over and over and over.

You mean like anti-monitor is a creation of TGD? did I see it wrong? Isn't anti-monitor just said to be cursed not created? [Here].
Hecate created the gods didn't the dream? I saw that SOG had existed before and she had gone to a darker place [dark multiverse] [Here]
The voids also vary, yahweh isn't omnipotent either, his plans don't even go beyond the voids, didn't even reach the void yama.

Like i said, after the holidays, we could focus for the Spiritual Cosmology

Spirituality is only in the sphere of the gods, that is where the gods of various beliefs are located.Here
why not put it easily in the sphere of the gods but scale it under the limbo?

I do not think that DeMatteis and Alan Moore seem to have the same type of religious worldviews at all. The former is a disciple of Meher Baba, who DeMatteis thinks is an Enlightened being, and the second is a long practitioner of spiritual magic.

Spiritual/astral plane part of the collective unconscious.
"The crest of the Collective Unconscious lies above the Sphere of the Gods."put that realms above the sphere of the gods
There's nothing complicated actually

 

[Elizio33]

You mean like anti-monitor is a creation of TGD? did I see it wrong? Isn't anti-monitor just said to be cursed not created? [Here].
Hecate created the gods didn't the dream? I saw that SOG had existed before and she had gone to a darker place [dark multiverse] [Here]
The voids also vary, yahweh isn't omnipotent either, his plans don't even go beyond the voids, didn't even reach the void yama.

Spirituality is only in the sphere of the gods, that is where the gods of various beliefs are located.Here
why not put it easily in the sphere of the gods but scale it under the limbo?

Spiritual/astral plane part of the collective unconscious.
"The crest of the Collective Unconscious lies above the Sphere of the Gods."put that realms above the sphere of the gods
There's nothing complicated actually

You're right about the Anti-Monitor being cursed instead of being created by the Great Darkness. This needs to be changed.

A notable difference between DeMatteis and Crisis Cosmologies, for example, is their view of "God" which seems distinctly different. DeMatteis' vision of God contains and surpasses everything and everyone, including the Primordial Darkness (Pralaya), while in Crisis Cosmology, the Light of Creation (Overvoid/Source/Presence) is preceded by the Great Darkness.