Hasty12345
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everyone in DC is clearly 3-A
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General DC Comics Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Confluctor
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- dc comics
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Why does it matter if his name isn't officially GEB
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Are any of you willing to investigate which pages that need to be updated in this regard, and then link to them here, please?
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Because if his name is not GEB, then it's just the Great Darkness, and saying things like "GEB is just part of the Great Darkness" becoming unnecessarily confusing.
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What do you wanna call this avatar then
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Just call it the Empty Hand. As he is the one who matched the Presence in heaven.
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It depends. The Avatar was revealed to be Empty Hand, but if we discuss it in terms of the original Swamp Thing, its just the Great Darkness.
This is wrong. The Empty Hand never challenged The Light/Presence.
"Once used to form a truce with the Light."
It's also obviously not true that any of the GD's avatars can defeat the Presence, because he had several avatars involved in the greater war with the Presence and never actually succeeded.
"Avatars and Puppets all working to weaken the new universe and extinguish the Light."
Williamson's cosmology shows us that Great Darkness is the big bad controlling villains like Darkseid, EH, Dax Novu/Mandrakk, et cetera, in an ultimate war with the Light/Presence/Overvoid. None of his avatars can match the Light, even the GD itself cannot.
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Light, is the Source right?
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The Williamson storyline -- moreso than any other story so far -- makes the case that all the top beings of DC exist in unity. This makes sense, as it also ultimately tied all of the big villains into being puppets of the Darkness.
They went out of their way to refer to Overvoid's origin story's exact wording to set up the Light, and rolled into showing that it was the same being as the one in Swamp Thing (the Presence), and whilst it has not directly referred to "The Source" yet, we have other evidence connecting the Source to the Presence and the Overvoid.
Grant Morrison, for example, recently stated in an interview that the Overvoid is the Source, in an interview from March 2022.
So overall yes, it's safe to say Light/Presence/Overvoid/Source are the same being.
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So about this...
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The Great Darkness
The Great Darkness is the primordial darkness that preceded everything, before the creator emanated light into creation. It was so cold and dark for so long that the birth of a burning light was imperceptible, but the flickering light grew until nothing was no longer everything and the darkness...
vsbattles.fandom.com
The page itself is named. GEB. How does one change the name of a page?
Deleted member 21887
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The Great Darkness
The Great Darkness is the primordial darkness that preceded everything, before the creator emanated light into creation. It was so cold and dark for so long that the birth of a burning light was imperceptible, but the flickering light grew until nothing was no longer everything and the darkness...
The page itself is named. GEB. How does one change the name of a page?
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Thank you. I have renamed the page and updated all of the links to it from our regular wiki pages as well.The Great Darkness
The Great Darkness is the primordial darkness that preceded everything, before the creator emanated light into creation. It was so cold and dark for so long that the birth of a burning light was imperceptible, but the flickering light grew until nothing was no longer everything and the darkness...
The page itself is named. GEB. How does one change the name of a page?
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As of right now the Light as an entire being is never equated with The Presence. And it really wouldn’t make sense for The Presence to be the full Light since an aspect of the Darkness was equal to the Presence.
In the Alan Moore Swamp Thing it’s said that they’re “locked in endless fight.” Implying that this aspect of The Great Darkness is equal to the Presence.
"Once used to form a truce with the Light."
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Well damn The Great Darkness is going insane, destroying the entire Map, including the Source
THIS IS EASILY ONE OF THE BEST FEATS IN ALL OF DC, IF NOT THE BEST
THIS IS EASILY ONE OF THE BEST FEATS IN ALL OF DC, IF NOT THE BEST
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Not just the Source but even the Overvoid, and outside the Overvoid we can see TGD closing it on it, absorbing it entirely. Definitely the best feat in all of DC.
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HOLY SHITWell damn The Great Darkness is going insane, destroying the entire Map, including the Source
THIS IS EASILY ONE OF THE BEST FEATS IN ALL OF DC, IF NOT THE BEST
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Its possible that this avatar could defeat the Presence, or the other way roundIt depends. The Avatar was revealed to be Empty Hand, but if we discuss it in terms of the original Swamp Thing, its just the Great Darkness.
This is wrong. The Empty Hand never challenged The Light/Presence.
"Once used to form a truce with the Light."
It's also obviously not true that any of the GD's avatars can defeat the Presence, because he had several avatars involved in the greater war with the Presence and never actually succeeded.
"Avatars and Puppets all working to weaken the new universe and extinguish the Light."
Williamson's cosmology shows us that Great Darkness is the big bad controlling villains like Darkseid, EH, Dax Novu/Mandrakk, et cetera, in an ultimate war with the Light/Presence/Overvoid. None of his avatars can match the Light, even the GD itself cannot.
The map of the multiverse, which is used in recent comics shows that the Source and the Overvoid are different things. I'm sure you know about the Lucifer comic where he flew to the Source, in that comic it treated the overvoid and the source as different things. Grant Morrison is definitely not a reliable source if the comics disagree with him. The Dark Crisis comic showing the Overvoid having a similar origin story doesn't make it the Source or the Presence when they're confirmed to be different, it could just mean they share similarities. God is a part of the OvervoidThe Williamson storyline -- moreso than any other story so far -- makes the case that all the top beings of DC exist in unity. This makes sense, as it also ultimately tied all of the big villains into being puppets of the Darkness.
They went out of their way to refer to Overvoid's origin story's exact wording to set up the Light, and rolled into showing that it was the same being as the one in Swamp Thing (the Presence), and whilst it has not directly referred to "The Source" yet, we have other evidence connecting the Source to the Presence and the Overvoid.
Grant Morrison, for example, recently stated in an interview that the Overvoid is the Source, in an interview from March 2022.
So overall yes, it's safe to say Light/Presence/Overvoid/Source are the same being.
Maybe they can't match the Overvoid, but I could use the same logic to say the Presence is weaker than the Great Darkness because the great darkness hasn't been killed by the Presence
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This is just missing the point of the Great Darkness return in the Creation that was already pre-destined "since time began"
And the reason why it allowed Etrigan, Dr Fate, the Spectre and Swamp Thing to enter within its being.
As it's written litteraly in your scan, the Great Darkness was seeking for one answer regarding it's purpose or, in other words, it's raison d'être that he lost after God said : Let there be the Light. Etrigan trying to give its own answer to the Great Darkness' request does not mean this is true, especially when the latter was unsatisfied with every answer till the Swamp Thing gave one answer that the Great Darkness did not accept yet, but understood.
It is only after an aspect of the Presence, the Hand of Light, intervened at the end by reaching the Great Darkness' hand that the latter found its anwser, so found back its raison d'être symbolized through Yin-Yang.
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First, you just agreed that the being in Swamp Thing is the Presence by claiming that, and in Williamson's storyline that being is called the Light. Which means Light = Presence.
Second, there's no evidence in the comic that an aspect of the Darkness was equal to the Presence. The OG Swamp Thing storyline did not include avatars, and it never actually stated that the Great Darkness was equal to the Presence, people just assumed that.
Third, if we are using Williamson's retcon to say it was just an Avatar, then we also have to include Williamson's change that the Light and the Darkness never fought at all, they simply made a truce. You can't ignore one part of a retcon and then use the other just because you're desperate to downplay The Presence.
I don't see it that way, especially given how adamant Grant has been that they are the same thing. They are both labels in the empty white space, to me that's an indicator that they are two different names for the same area.
That's not what happened. The comic showed that the Light is the Overvoid by copying his origin story word for word. The Light is also shown to be the Presence by connecting it to the Swamp Thing storyline.
That would be assuming the Presence wants to destroy the darkness, but he probably doesn't.
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Claim = / = Evidence, besides the fact that even the "Map sketch by Grant Morrison" shows that Grant Morron intended to place the Overvoid and the Source on the same level of existence.
And as @Deagonx showed, Grant Morrison still has the same stance.
When the Overvoid was not even a thing prior Final Crisis. You are making sense.
This remain to be supported by DC canon, not by any headcanon.
Claim = / = Evidence.
- Justice League 22
- Justice League Incarnate 4
The origin of the Monitors is related to the Overvoid, also known as "the Light" in DC's current cosmology, the same "Light" that appeared in Alan Moore's "American Gothic" storyline and "confronted" the hand of the Great Darkness by reaching out to it from Heaven, but the Presence and the Overvoid "share only similarities."Making sense indeed.
This statement does not even support that "God is part of the Overvoid". Rather, it's more in line with DeMatteis' the Presence with the Void treated as God's Unconscious state.
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No, the Light in the Dark Crisis comic could be talking about the Overvoid rather than the Presence
I didn't say it was equal, just that they should possibly be relative to each other
There's no retcon here. Them making a truce doesn't mean they didn't fight, they could have fought and then made a truce. It also formed a truce with the Overvoid, not the Presence
What's in published material like the comics is more important than an author who can be wrong. It doesn't even show that they are two different names for the same thing, it very explicitly shows them as different things
Yeah the Light should be the Overvoid, but there's no indication it is the Presence. Them mentioning that Swamp Thing comic has 0 reason to mean the Light refers to the Presence
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Didn't they fight and then make a truce?
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If what Grant Morrison intended is different from what's actually published, that's evidence that you can't even take Grant's word as canon. Why are you using a scan for unfinished and unreleased work anyways? This is incredibly disingenuousClaim = / = Evidence, besides the fact that even the "Map sketch by Grant Morrison" shows that Grant Morron intended to place the Overvoid and the Source on the same level of existence.
And as @Deagonx showed, Grant Morrison still has the same stance.
When the Overvoid was not even a thing prior Final Crisis. You are making sense.
This remain to be supported by DC canon, not by any headcanon.
Claim = / = Evidence.
- Justice League 22
- Justice League Incarnate 4
The origin of the Monitors is related to the Overvoid, also known as "the Light" in DC's current cosmology, the same "Light" that appeared in Alan Moore's "American Gothic" storyline and "confronted" the hand of the Great Darkness by reaching out to it from Heaven, but the Presence and the Overvoid "share only similarities."Making sense indeed.
This statement does not even support that "God is part of the Overvoid". Rather, it's more in line with DeMatteis' the Presence with the Void treated as God's Unconscious state.
Prove it wasn't a thing prior to Final Crisis
????
At no point does it mention the Light in that Dark Crisis comic is referring to the thing the Empty Hand fought in the Swamp Thing comic
Why? Did you even read the scan that shows the presence literally being just a part of the Void?
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Etrigans answer being not what The Great Darkness was looking for has no barring on whether the information given was actually true or false.This is just missing the point of the Great Darkness return in the Creation that was already pre-destined "since time began"
And the reason why it allowed Etrigan, Dr Fate, the Spectre and Swamp Thing to enter within its being.
As it's written litteraly in your scan, the Great Darkness was seeking for one answer regarding it's purpose or, in other words, it's raison d'être that he lost after God said : Let there be the Light. Etrigan trying to give its own answer to the Great Darkness' request does not mean this is true, especially when the latter was unsatisfied with every answer till the Swamp Thing gave one answer that the Great Darkness did not accept yet, but understood.
It is only after an aspect of the Presence, the Hand of Light, intervened at the end by reaching the Great Darkness' hand that the latter found its anwser, so found back its raison d'être symbolized through Yin-Yang.
And even if you still disagree, it’s directly stated before The Presence and this aspect of the Great Darkness confront one another that the Darkness was reaching to fight it. With others who were observing also claiming that they were about to fight.
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As I said before, nowhere in Williamson storyline does it say that the Presence who matched an aspect of the Darkness, is equal to the full being of the Light. If you have scans link them. Don’t just make a bunch of random claims.
Williamsons story didn’t retcon that they fought. In Alan Moores Swamp Thing it’s shown that they were confronting one another to fight and after matching one another came to a truce. Which is what Infinite Frontier is referring to.
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The Map of the Multiverse litterally states regarding the Source Wall:
Grant Morrison not only intended, but as well established into the Map of the Multiverse that whatever lies beyond the Source Wall can be seen as the Overvoid and/or the Source.
Get your facts straight, as the Source existing on the level of the existence as the Overvoid is supported by one evidence stated on the Map of the Multiverse as I've pointed out and others.
Says the one arguing over DC's canon by using headcanon.
You made a positive claim on this matter. The burden of proof is on your side that it's the case. Good luck to support this headcanon.
DC's canon says otherwise, ironically.
There have been not two Lights, but only one Light, indentified to the Overvoid and the Presence, partaking in a conflict with the Great Darkness.
The scan does not assert, nor even imply your nonsense that "the presence literally being just a part of the Void?".
It merly suggests that God was in a unconscious state, one with the Void, before the time he became aware of himself. Same view that that share DeMatteis' on the Presence.
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The Map of the Multiverse litterally states regarding the Source Wall:
Grant Morrison not only intended, but as well established into the Map of the Multiverse that whatever lies beyond the Source Wall can be seen as the Overvoid and/or the Source.
Get your facts straight, as the Source existing on the level of the existence as the Overvoid is supported by one evidence stated on the Map of the Multiverse as I've pointed out and others.
Says the one arguing over DC's canon by using headcanon.
You made a positive claim on this matter. The burden of proof is on your side that it's the case. Good luck to support this headcanon.
DC's canon says otherwise, ironically.
There have been not two Lights, but only one Light, indentified to the Overvoid and the Presence, partaking in a conflict with the Great Darkness.
The scan does not assert, nor even imply your nonsense that "the presence literally being just a part of the Void?".
It merly suggests that God was in a unconscious state, one with the Void, before the time he became aware of himself. Same view that that share DeMatteis' on the Presence.
This does not mean the Source is the Monitor Mind. Its like saying "apples, oranges and bananas" means apples and oranges are the same.
The Overvoid was literally there before all existence began, which is obviously before the events of Final Crisis
This scan doesn't mention that the Presence is the Light they were talking about
It merly suggests that God was in a unconscious state, one with the Void, before the time he became aware of himself. Same view that that share DeMatteis' on the Presence.
I'm not talking about the dialogue, I'm talking about the fact that God, the pair of eyes in that page is just a part of that white void in the background. At no point did it say that God was one with the Void
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Read correctly, as you are completly off about my point. Yes, a claim can be used as an evidence, but only because it's obviously substianted by many others evidence. A claim in itself is not an evidence. Many characters claim to be "omnipotent", does not mean they have to be taken at face value.
The Map of the Multiverse litteraly supports the case that the Overvoid and the Source exists on the same level of existence, not the otherwise.
Nice conjecture, now can you even prove a single evidence to support this. That's the hardest part.
The Source stated to be the center of all things predate the current DC's cosmology.
And as a matter of fact, The Spectre, Hyppolita, Metron, etc. and so on did not have to go at the center of all things to encounter the Source, as the Source is everywhere.
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Poor comparaison, if the Overvoid was the only figure to be on the level of existence as the Void, Grant Morrison would not have stressed on the fact that "only lies" not only the Overvoid, but the also the Source.
And nobody said that the Overvoid and the Source are the same figure, at least not me strawmaner, but that that they part of the same "Godhead" so to speak. That's the difference.
Just because the introduction of the Overvoid retroactively changes alll the information that was known at the time in the DC's Universe does not mean that the Overvoid was not officialy introduced until Final Crisis. Same case as for "the Speed Force", which was not a thing in Pre-Crisis. Nice tap dance, as you tried to argue about two different things.
Then you have to provide another instance regarding that "the Light" in the scan I provided is another Light that encountered the Great Darkness, and not the same Light that reached out the Great Darkness' hand from Heaven in Alan Moore's "American Gothic" storyline.
"The pair of eyes" in your own words is merely an illustration to show the time when God became self-aware. Does not take a lot of mental gymnastics to understand this.
You are not making sense at all, since if the "pair of eyes" is supposed to represent God after self-awareness, it means that his state of unconsciousness was "blended", so to speak, with the whiteness of the Void, so "one" as I said.
Deleted member 21887
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What book is this picture from?Well damn The Great Darkness is going insane, destroying the entire Map, including the Source
THIS IS EASILY ONE OF THE BEST FEATS IN ALL OF DC, IF NOT THE BEST
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Preview – Dark Crisis on Infinite Earths #5 (DC Comics)
On sale Tuesday 4th October from DC Comics.
bigcomicpage.com
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Dark Crisis #5
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This isn't true. How does stressing that the Overvoid and Source are some of the only things beyond the wall mean they're on the same plane of existence? This is supporting evidence, but not strong enough because there's 0 correlation. The Fifth Dimension is also beyond the Source, so is the Secret Sea as its beyond the Godhead who usually refers to the presence, who embodies all Creation
Where did I claim it was? I agree that the Overvoid was officially introduced before FC. Not that it matters, its not like the overvoid didn't exist until it was officially introduced
It doesn't even say that the Light is the thing that reached out to the great darkness' hand
Yes its an illustration of God. Why is this relevant?
Where did you get "blended" from? And why does this mean he's one with the Void?
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The great darkness is fodderWell damn The Great Darkness is going insane, destroying the entire Map, including the Source
THIS IS EASILY ONE OF THE BEST FEATS IN ALL OF DC, IF NOT THE BEST
