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Local vampire man literally too plato to die.
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Frick this sense of Deja Vu 2: Electric Boogaloo
- Thread starter Udlmaster
- Start date
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Plato never existed, that was disguised Cain trying to explain how trash his children are compared to him.
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Sooooo what was the original point of this thread?
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I thought this thread was to reaffirm their 1-A status with the new tier system and all
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It is, but to find out how high in 1-A they are as well.
Udlmaster
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If you want to talk about WoD, I recommend here: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3427608Livinmeme said:
If it's about the thread, fire away.
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Just to make sure, you have read the arguments and counter arguments, right?
Both sides go a little more in-depth through that.
Both sides go a little more in-depth through that.
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Understandable. I still don't agree, but I'd hope other people have seen the scans and the arguments before deciding to agree or disagree.
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Just to remind you, Livin.
The new system isn't strictly about feats, is about proving the existence of higher dimensions that are either qualitatively superior to the normal universe, or portrayed just as big/bigger than the universe.
That's what's being mainly argued here.
The new system isn't strictly about feats, is about proving the existence of higher dimensions that are either qualitatively superior to the normal universe, or portrayed just as big/bigger than the universe.
That's what's being mainly argued here.
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Well after reading through all of this ,( even that weird section when everything was just derailment) I agree with OP...but if all this is accepted i feel like we should put a note on WoD page with all feats posted on it, (provided with context and not crop image to avoid needless complication like it happen here) other than that its better to try and get more imputs here.
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So, this got accepted or what?
In the new system obviously
In the new system obviously
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Dude, I can agree if you post one, just one statement that goes something along the lines of; "Dream Realm views the lesser world as nothing" or "Our entire universe is but a speck in the vast ocean of the *insert realm/plane here*". If a straightforward statement or quote like that exists then I can happily agree to the upgrade. If not then I'll have to disagree or at least stay neutral.
Udlmaster
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I have a few like that if you want them?Planck69 said:
For example, there's thing like Tier 6 beings transcending the entire game rules and stats, and at tier 10 they're beyond platonic conception.
Everything that is, all physical, spiritual and intellectual elements are just 1 part of the infinite Tapestry.
That is just apart of the Tellurian which is "everything that has been imagined, can be imagined, or has yet to be imagined. It's a word for something that transcends words..."
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1. Yes, Tier 6 does appear to be above normal quantification. However, this would not automatically translate to transcendence (though it immediately would if even countably infinite game stats could be recorded). And transcending platonic conception is no longer equivalent to 1-A without further context. Based on this I can see 1-C to 1-B at most.
2. and 3. Well this proves that all that exists is contained withine the Tapestry. Not sure if that translates into hierarchies though.
Look, when I say straightforward, I mean something like this;
A cut-and-dry hierarchy of higher dimensional space-times is shown to us here, with no beating around the bush or room for misinterpretation.
The quote above explicitly makes the difference between dimensionality as something greater than infinite when even a universal space-time is an atom in higher dimensional space.
Something like that, with no need for us to make inferences at all. When even one quote exists like this in WoD then we'd at least have a basis for the rest of the cosmology that is irrefutable.
Like I said, I'm fine with WoD being 1-A but the justification has to be cast-iron.
2. and 3. Well this proves that all that exists is contained withine the Tapestry. Not sure if that translates into hierarchies though.
Look, when I say straightforward, I mean something like this;
| " | I have said that there were things in some of Akeley's letters—especially the second and most voluminous one—which I would not dare to quote or even form into words on paper. This hesitancy applies with still greater force to the things I heard whispered that evening in the darkened room among the lonely haunted hills. Of the extent of the cosmic horrors unfolded by that raucous voice I cannot even hint. He had known hideous things before, but what he had learned since making his pact with the Outside Things was almost too much for sanity to bear. Even now I absolutely refuse to believe what he implied about the constitution of ultimate infinity, the juxtaposition of dimensions, and the frightful position of our known cosmos of space and time in the unending chain of linked cosmos-atoms which makes up the immediate super-cosmos of curves, angles, and material and semi-material electronic organisatio. | " |
| ~ The Whisperer in Darkness |
| " | Their main immediate abode is a still undiscovered and almost lightless planet at the very edge of our solar system—beyond Neptune, and the ninth in distance from the sun. It is, as we have inferred, the object mystically hinted at as "Yuggoth" in certain ancient and forbidden writings; and it will soon be the scene of a strange focussing of thought upon our world in an effort to facilitate mental rapport. I would not be surprised if astronomers became sufficiently sensitive to these thought-currents to discover Yuggoth when the Outer Ones wish them to do so. But Yuggoth, of course, is only the stepping-stone. The main body of the beings inhabits strangely organised abysses wholly beyond the utmost reach of any human imagination. The space-time globule which we recognise as the totality of all cosmic entity is only an atom in the genuine infinity which is theirs. And as much of this infinity as any human brain can hold is eventually to be opened up to me, as it has been to not more than fifty other men since the human race has existed. | " |
| ~ The Whisperer in Darkness |
Something like that, with no need for us to make inferences at all. When even one quote exists like this in WoD then we'd at least have a basis for the rest of the cosmology that is irrefutable.
Like I said, I'm fine with WoD being 1-A but the justification has to be cast-iron.
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In terms of straight-forwardness, yes. Lovecraft has so many quotes that back a High 1-B multiverse that it's not even funny. Hell, other authors within the canon Mythos have High 1-B stuff in their stories that can be used to back that rating for their multiversal section of reality too. If you have something that is an in-your-face "this is infinitely superior to that" then I can back 1-A WoD.Udlmaster said:
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A single, straight-forward statement or scan describing higher planes as ontologically or infinitely superior to lower ones hardly seems unreasonable. Ergenverse has it's rating because not only does it possess infinite spatial dimensions but every single one of them is infinite in magnitude, which qualifies for a High 1-B multiverse. Simply having spatial dimensions on it's own isn't enough for this at all since they can still be finite.
Udlmaster
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I mean, even having infinite sized higher dimensions, that doesn't prove transcendence or a greater infinity over the others, just they're all infinite in size.Planck69 said:
And even then, the citaitons for "Infinite" are µùáµò░, Wushu, which isn't Infinite, the citation for it is some cut off VSB post, 0 credibility.
µùáµò░ meaning (directly) No Figure/Number etc is used for countless / numberless / innumerable
It doesn't mean Infinite, which is things like µùáþ®ÀµùáÕ░¢.
And here I am, having to jump through Cthulhu level heights when a citation from an Unknown personage from this site was accepted to mean Infinite which is the BACKBONE of the entire verse being 1-A.
TBH, I find this most of all funny because people kept claiming I was cutting this out of context and cutting things up, but when there's actual cases of that, shoved into people's faces, it's glossed over and allowed for 1-A.
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Having infinite sized higher dimensions is definitely enough for higher tiers in Tier 1 since it means that the structure or cosmology is infinitely big in every direction. The word "transcendence" itself means nothing to the scale of a verse. As the tiering system goes;
However, higher-dimensionality is indeed a valid way to jump unto higher tiers if the higher-dimensional being / object in question is either treated as being infinitely and/or qualitatively above lower-dimensional ones specifically because of their dimensionality, or is provably infinite, in which case it is equated to the size of the entire n-dimensional real coordinate space in which it resides. See this page for more information.
And again, infinite sized spatial dimensions are indeed enough to qualify for higher tiers. If Ergen doesn't have this dimensional scale then it should be downgraded, two wrongs do not make a right.
However, higher-dimensionality is indeed a valid way to jump unto higher tiers if the higher-dimensional being / object in question is either treated as being infinitely and/or qualitatively above lower-dimensional ones specifically because of their dimensionality, or is provably infinite, in which case it is equated to the size of the entire n-dimensional real coordinate space in which it resides. See this page for more information.
And again, infinite sized spatial dimensions are indeed enough to qualify for higher tiers. If Ergen doesn't have this dimensional scale then it should be downgraded, two wrongs do not make a right.
Udlmaster
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- Thread starter
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So, I'll ask, if Ergenverse isn't put through the same requirements, hell, it wasn't even put through a general glance, why is WoD being held to Cthulhu Mythos standards?Planck69 said:
Do you not find that to be double-standards and very much so moving the goal post against one verse?
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What do you mean by "Cthulhu Mythos" standards? Do you have any idea how easy it is for the Mythos to get away with stuff? People agreed to a Tier 0 upgrade to 8 profiles without so much as batting an eye. One of those profiles was for infinite characters. It's more that the Mythos has proven it's metal time and time again that it's used as a metric.
About the Ergen thing; if your right about the spatial dimensions not being infinite in size or corresponding to higher planes then I can kinda agree that keeping it 1-A might be double-standards. But still, several verses still need accurate and thorough scans and statements for their tiers. Ultima has had a CRT for High 1-A Twin Peaks active for almost a week now despite him having everything as completely straight-forward.
About the Ergen thing; if your right about the spatial dimensions not being infinite in size or corresponding to higher planes then I can kinda agree that keeping it 1-A might be double-standards. But still, several verses still need accurate and thorough scans and statements for their tiers. Ultima has had a CRT for High 1-A Twin Peaks active for almost a week now despite him having everything as completely straight-forward.
Udlmaster
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I wasn't saying that the Dimensions weren't infinite in size, the CRT doesn't even state their size.Planck69 said:
I was debunking there even being Infinite dimensions in the first place, which there isn't, the word used, Wushu, means numerous, countless etc. I.E 1-B.
Udlmaster
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NOPE.Planck69 said:
After visiting threads, Ultima said this:
"Ultima Reality @DontTalk Well, unless the dimensions in question are described super vaguely and aren't too elaborated upon, it could be something along those lines, yes. For instance, if a Universe is described as higher-dimensional and the dimensions themselves are not compactified, I don't see much ground to assume the whole thing is so small in relation to its additional axes. Edited by Ultima Reality 04:04, December 19, 2019"
WoD dimensions are by example, proven to be much larger than microscopic, aren't compactified and aren't small AT ALL.
WoD stands for High 1-B, if you disagree, go downgrade Ergenverse AND To Aru first, then we can talk.
