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Examining RWBY scaling for high tier characters

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Dargoo Faust said:
Cinder doesn't even need to dodge attacks. She casually blocks/dissipates all of that Glynda throws at her. That was also the guy's reaction, not Cinder's.
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Cinder did not 'easily dissipate them', she used visibly powerful fireballs (weve seen her use casual fire before, this is not that) and all it did was split the attack into three which Glynda then used to continue attacking
 
RegisNex1232 said:
@Matt You do realize that it was already discussed in the OP? Nothing you said is new or supported by OP's evidence.
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The thing is, the OP's very evidence works in opposition to himself? He's basically saying that characters don't scale... By linking scenes where they do scale.

So basically every "Yes I agree" post in this thread with nothing further beyond it becomes dubious since the very pillars of this downgrade are shaky.
 
You're implying the scenes do scale. I'll just repost a portion of the OP:

"Here is the entire fight between the two of them.

  • Glynda does not land a single hit on Cinder for the entire fight.
  • Glynda blocks only a single fireball from Cinder the entire fight.
So at best we have a single durability feat out of this entire exchange in Glynda's favor. From a casual fireball flung out by Cinder; the same kind of fireball mind you that Cinder used against Ruby during in Volume 5 which didn't even break her Aura."


I still don't know why you're applying scaling in one case and not another.

So basically every "Yes I agree" post in this thread with nothing further beyond it becomes dubious since the very pillars of this downgrade are shaky.

Nah, the OP has very sound logic. At least it's consistent within itself. It seems you're just trying to disqualify a lot of affirmative opinions.
 
Not at all? The OP clearly presents his points and evidence and then points out any counter arguments and why they can't be used. You're just reiterating what the OP already said is wrong and thinking that you're right.

This just seems like you attacking those who agree instead of getting a proper argument.
 
WeeklyBattles said:
@Matt
Salem telling Tyrian to hunt for the Spring Maiden.

Qrow says that he and Leo can take on a Maiden along with Rave.

Watts is worried that Qrow won't go done easily.
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WeeklyBattles said:
@Matt Here is the scene where Cinder states that even without the information Leo provided, Tyrian and Hazel would have found and killed all of the pro Huntsmen in the kingdom
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First one: I'd require context on how he fights, but unless he uses hax / prep time / stealth archery (lol) I don't see how he could kill a Maiden while also being hundreds of times weaker.

Second one: Well he wouldn't be able to take on a Maiden if he was much weaker. The other guy also states that Qrow is evenly matched with Raven, so it seems pretty straightforward.

Third one: This makes it very obvious that Qrow is a threat to them instead of a pushover like people in this thread imply. They also consider ganging up on him to defeat him, rather than easily one-shotting him.

Fourth one: Also seems to imply the characters are on a comparable level if they can kill them.

So yeah, pretty straightforward. Particularly the second and third statements. Really seeing no reason to downgrade
 
Dargoo Faust said:
You're implying the scenes do scale. I'll just repost a portion of the OP:
Click to expand...
And I'll reply with what I said. Glynda and the other girl traded each other's attacks. They felt the need to block / dodge / counter each other's magic, and when they both fired magic it was evenly matched. You need heavy mental gymnastics to say they don't scale.
 
None of those statements are "straightforward", Matt.

Qrow has never fought a Maiden before, the OP already disproves any direct scaling feats. His statement is dubious at best, and a "we can take them" statement doesn't really mean much even in-context.

Watts is clearly only concerened about making a scene. "He's not going to go down quietly or without a fight"

He clearly doesn't doubt their capability to take him out, just the scene it would make.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Dargoo Faust said:
You're implying the scenes do scale. I'll just repost a portion of the OP:
Click to expand...
And I'll reply with what I said. Glynda and the other girl traded each other's attacks.
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"Traded" is outright false when only one casual attack landed in the fight. I suggest you go over it again. You need heavy mental gymnastics to say they don't scale. It's simple logic. One attack lands, and it a similar context you're claiming it doesn't scale. I don't see your reasoning, and you have yet to properly address this.
 
They are all straightforward, Dargoo.

I saw the direct scaling feats and considered they direct and straightforward, so I disagree with the OP's opinion. Just because he argued against using those fights doesn't mean they're unusable as arguments?

No, Qrow's statement clearly involves fighting them in combat.

Watts' states that he wouldn't be defeated easily. Nothing implies otherwise.
 
Dargoo Faust said:
"Traded" is outright false when only one casual attack landed in the fight. I suggest you go over it again.
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I did go, and I still don't see your point. Nothing implies she was casual. Both had to block each other and their magical attacks canceled each other.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
They are all straightforward, Dargoo.
I saw the direct scaling feats and considered they direct and straightforward, so I disagree with the OP's opinion. Just because he argued against using those fights doesn't mean they're unusable as arguments?

No, Qrow's statement clearly involves fighting them in combat.

Watts' states that he wouldn't be defeated easily. Nothing implies otherwise.
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You're allowed to disagree, although that doesn't mean that the vast majority who disagrees with you doesn't have a point.

As I've said, not the best source seeing as he's never fought one. And as a group it'd be even more dubious for scaling.

Watts doesn't say easily. He says "without a fight" and "quietly". I've directly quoted him and you're ignoring that.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Dargoo Faust said:
"Traded" is outright false when only one casual attack landed in the fight. I suggest you go over it again.
Click to expand...
I did go, and I still don't see your point. Nothing implies she was casual. Both had to block each other and their magical attacks canceled each other.
Click to expand...
You're implying Cinder needed to. Cinder putting up a large fight would have endangered what was clearly a covert operation as well as their transport. Going by what the man said, they clearly didn't want to draw attention. Again, I'll mention how the same situation happens with Ruby.
 
The fact that he states that he can take one with some help as well as being tasked to protect her warrants scaling

Watts is literally the brains of Salem's group, his word should mean more than pretty much anyone other than Salem herself
 
The majority who disagreed literally said nothing other than "I agree", and when faced with a counterargument the predominant response was "OP already answered!". Actually debate here. It's about arguments, not numbers.

In fact, if you control + f the number of most of the people in the "Agrees" list, you'll see that their names appear more times in your list posts than in their actual posts.

As a group? Two / Three vs One? At best you'd divide the calc value by that.

I have seen Watts' quotes, let's no degrade into arguing semantics. "He won't go down quietly or without a fight" means that they'd have to put effort to kill him. Then Cinder suggests they all attack him together, and is responded by the fact that he'll be with others.

Meaning that not only they know he won't be defeated easily, they'd have to team up on him to do so.

He blatantly scales.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
The majority who disagreed literally said nothing other than "I agree", and when faced with a counterargument the predominant response was "OP already answered!". Actually debate here. It's about arguments, not numbers.
As a group? Two / Three vs One? At best you'd divide the calc value by that.

I have seen Watts' quotes, let's no degrade into arguing semantics. "He won't go down quietly or without a fight" means that they'd have to put effort to kill him. Then Cinder suggests they all attack him together, and is responded by the fact that he'll be with others.

Meaning that not only they know he won't be defeated easily, they'd have to team up on him to do so.

He blatantly scales.
Click to expand...
Nope. Look at the first half of the comment section, many had lots to add to the debate. Stop dismissing them as if they are FRAs, it does a big disservice to them. And I'm bringing up arguments, however I'd also like you to adress the fact that I have not been the only one to contribute here instead of dismissing grounded opinions for no reason.

The group consisted of nearly 5-6 people, and Qrow's claim doesn't come from a reliable source. How would he know that they can take out a Maiden?

No, that doesn't mean that they'd have to put effort. Nor am I arguing semantics - they are running a covert operation and don't want more eyes on what they are doing. I'm bringing up the context that you don't want to give head to.

He really doesn't.
 
The first 50 or so posts had debate, but at some point it was just "FRA" and "Look at the OP". Now there's actually debate again. You are one of the people's who's making a serious effort in this thread, anyway.

He wasn't talking about 5 - 6 people, only three. And it's a good thing there's like four statements plus a scene that suggest Qrow scales.

Cinder having to dodge his attack and running away from him.

Watts stating he wouldn't go down easily

Cinder suggesting they'd gang on him to kill him

Qrow being confident that he could take a Maiden-level character himself

And the other character agreeing to him.

Ignoring all of that seems biased.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
He wasn't talking about 5 - 6 people, only three. And it's a good thing there's like four statements plus a scene that suggest Qrow scales.
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I don't understand how doging and escaping implies scaling.

She'd be trying to resolve the situation faster. Watts never says easily.

He never took a hit from Cinder, ergo he wouldn't be aware of how powerful she is.

Lionheart was colluding against him, unless you're talking about someone else.

Ignoring context seems even more biased, to be blunt.
 
Dargoo Faust said:
He never took a hit from Cinder, ergo he wouldn't be aware of how powerful she is.
Click to expand...
...

Qrow is one of the few people who knows the maidens even exist

And then later in the series he explaines that half of her power was stolen by Cinder

Yes he does know how powerful she is
 
WeeklyBattles said:
Dargoo Faust said:
He never took a hit from Cinder, ergo he wouldn't be aware of how powerful she is.
Click to expand...
Qrow is one of the few people who knows the maidens even exist
And then later in the series he explaines that half of her power was stolen by Cinder
Click to expand...
No, there's nothing that implies that. Knowing something exists is wholly separate from knowing how powerful they are.
 
And then later in the series he explaines that half of her power was stolen by Cinder

Did you just not read this?
 
If Qrow's one of the few people that even knows Maidens exist then what even is the "He's unreliable" argument. Seems to just be trying to handwave statements away.
 
Okay, wait.

They're talking about a retrieval mission, not a fight.

Again, lack of context. I think you just watched everything after what Weekly linked you, instead of looking to see what the situation was. Nor am I hand-waving statements, I'm actively disproving them through showing you the context of the scene.
 
So I wouldn't know why it's being interpreted by him and you that "we can do a retreival mission" translates to "we can take down a Maiden"
 
Dargoo Faust said:
I think you just watched everything after what Weekly linked you, instead of looking to see what the situation was. Nor am I hand-waving statements, I'm actively disproving them through showing you the context of the scene.
Click to expand...
If you want to speak about lack of context I could have a field day with no one stating the fact that Qrow is one of the few who knows that the Maidens exist when dismissing his statements.

I was linked whole episodes. I saw the whole scenes where the fights / statements happen and got my conclusion. I linked all of the scenes as well.
 
The issue is, that statement had nothing to do with fighting a Maiden. It seems you're attempting to bend it towards the purpose of scaling. I feel as if it's fine to dismiss a statement that had nothing to do with how you're trying to construe it.

If you've seen the whole episode, I don't understand how you didn't understand the stuff Lionheart was saying right before Qrow made the claim you linked.

"Infiltration/Rescue" doesn't traslate to a direct fight.
 
Yeah, I'm not seeing the connection.

Qrow and Lionheart talk exclusively about fighting the bandits/Raven. Who Qrow wouldn't know is a Maiden herself. You're ignoring vital information in order to make this apply to your argument as much as possible.

I've also seen little rebuttal on my points regarding the three other statements you gave me. At best you have one vague statement which is only tied to the bandits. How that scales a character up a Tier is beyond me.

Me, Damage, Gargoyle, Ricsi, Desmond, Rebuble, Kalitas, Rusty, Jinx, Sigurd, Kuul, Dziga, Zen, Regis, Gilga

Neutral:

DarkDragon, Ryu

In Opposition:

Weekly, Matt, Maverik
 
I did see your arguments on all the other statements and I frankly don't see where you're coming from? They're all very direct and relate to the Maidens / characters on that level. And all but one most certainly relate to fighting.

I mean, sure you can mention that it will involve "hunting / infiltration", but at the end of the day doesn't everything in RWBY get resolved by anime fights?
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
I did see your arguments on all the other statements and I frankly don't see where you're coming from? They're all very direct and relate to the Maidens / characters on that level. And all but one most certainly relate to fighting.
I mean, sure you can mention that it will involve "hunting / infiltration", but at the end of the day doesn't everything in RWBY get resolved by anime fights?
Click to expand...
I've made my points, please counter them indvidually so I can reply back without having to repeat myself as to how they don't apply to fighting/scaling. As I don't see how they are direct/apply to scaling, and all you're saying here is that you disagree without any real argument/counter.

Yes. However, Qrow isn't trying to fight a Maiden. He's trying to rescue one. This is before they're aware of Cinder's alliance.
 
At this point it's just reiterating debunked points over and over to avoid any revisions when the majority already agree that things need to be changed.
 
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