RWBY 2024 CRT Part 1: Maiden Scaling

[Cire]

Can I have scans for magic power being tied to physical stats?

It’s in the show itself. Just by the very feats the characters are able to due. Like Raven and Cinder shaking an entire mountain with their sword clash, or Maiden Penny lifting up an entire coliseum in the sky

 

[Cire]

Universal Energy System

Like ki from Dragon Ball

How would aura be like that, if I can ask?

 

[Spinoirr]

How would aura be like that, if I can ask?

Aura is already a UES

 

[CurrySenpai]

It’s in the show itself. Just by the very feats the characters are able to due. Like Raven and Cinder shaking an entire mountain with their sword clash, or Maiden Penny lifting up an entire coliseum in the sky

No, I want scans, definitive statements and proof that magic buffs peoples physical abilities or that it is tied.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Can I have scans for magic power being tied to physical stats?

It doesn’t explicitly amplify physical strength, but it does seem to amplify aura which in turn can be used to amplify physical strength, such as when Amber activated her maiden powers she just no-sold tank Merc and Em’s bullets.

Penny also began to better lift the Amory Colliseum stabilizer with her maiden powers, which implies a boost of some kind to their physical prowess is a thing.

 

[Cire]

Ok, to begin: I agree that the characters should downscale going by a few things. In this response, I will solely tackle the biggest point I have for the downscaling.

Winter and Pre-Maiden Penny.

Now, as a history lesson, we know that large enough gaps in power can one shot a character through their Aura, seen with Yang and Adam. We have also seen this with cases like the Atlesian Mech one shotting Jaune and Nora. It’s pretty well established that if the force coming at you is strong enough, your Aura will get shattered in a single hit or be completely ignored.

That said, let’s analyze the fight:

Cinder, with her Grimm Arm, casually stops Penny and throws her away. No scaling, other than showing that Cinder’s Grimm Arm DOES have a level of durability against blunt force, and that physically, Cinder is superior to both combatants here.

Winter steps up and they exchange blows. Cinder expresses her hatred of Atlas elites and gets a kick off that knocks Winter down for a while. She clearly isn’t going all out here, she’s posturing, living a fantasy of kicking down a person she hates. No scalimg, and again, displaying her superiority. In a 1v1, neither of these characters would do anything meaningful to her if she genuinely wanted them dead, other than holding out for an unknown amount of time.

Penny steps up, fails to do anything as Cimder just deflects everything.

Both Winter and Penny step up and here is where possible scaling begins. Cinder starts directly kicking them, similar to how she did Winter previously, but they are simply knocked back instead of one shot. Cinder at this point is grunting in frustration and anger because she wants to kill them and get on with her mission, her DREAM. Them not dying or having their aura flare/break instantly is showing a degree of scaling already, at least for their aura vs Cinder’s physical attacks.

Cinder then gets really mad, grabs them and breaks them through the wall. She drops Winter, throws Penny, and launches a flaming sword with the absolute intent of killing her either with the blade stabbing her through the skull or the explosion following it. When she performs this move against Penny, the entirety of her focus is on killing her. That flaming sword exploding is doing so with the force of her maiden powers, aura and semblance behind it. Penny is blown away, but her aura does not flash up, signifying the hit is painful but not enough to debilitate her.

Penny comes back up and Cinder is breathing angrily, a sign that she is exerting herself. She is not being casual and has not been casual for this fight, at least since the time she grabbed their faces to now. She is PISSED that Penny is alive. She wants Penny and Winter dead. She has been trying to KILL THEM.

Right here, at the moment Cinder rages that they are not dead, is where my belief they should downscale comes in. Them not dying or having their aura break = they are comparable enough to Cinder at her full power that she is pissed they don’t die sooner. Otherwise, imo, she should have her intelligence reduced to below average for not knowing how to use her own power.

Winter pulls up, her summon blasts Cinder back but doesn’t seem to do much but annoy her. More skirmishes, another fireball to her and she grunts in seeming pain before screaming angrily and rushing at them, one shotting the summon and destroying Winter’s aura with a fireball. Winter is tapped, cooked, weakened. She is weaker than Cinder and thus runs out of Aura first. Downed in not even 3 minutes of combat in a 1v2 where she was absent or knocked back half the time.

Plot happens, yada yada, pointless Maiden Penny, whatever, and Winter cuts off the Grimm arm. Note: the Grimm arm is a weak point despite its prior showing, and handling a punch =/= a sword cutting your arm off. Winter then fights Cinder and can deflect/block her hits, but without aura, is clearly getting completely outclassed and would absolutely die in about 15 seconds without Penny. Fight over.

So IMO: yeah nah, Penny and Winter should Downscale from Cinder. Aura is doing some heavy lifting, but in total, Winter took 4 hits while Penny took ~3, one of which was an absolutely bloodlusted exploding magic sword toss that Cinder wanted to kill her with. The fact their aura didn’t crumble immediately from her hits, and only after Winter had taken 3 attacks, spent aura amplifying herself and used it to summon twice (birds and sphinx? Thing?) shows that they can naturally take a few hits from her.

On the other hand, Cinder was damn near a walking tank to them. Their physical strikes are nothing to her Grimm arm, let alone her with Aura. She is pissed they aren’t dying faster, but she IS trying. Their attacks have little effect on her, showcasing her superiority, but hers aren’t having the effect she wants, which is their instantaneous death.

I will say that Penny hasn’t been shown to have a specific shield for herself like the other humans. But the fact that she still face tanks it with no notable damage, unlike when she was ripped apart by Pyrrha, is still a great feat.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

No, I want scans, definitive statements and proof that magic buffs peoples physical abilities or that it is tied.

THIS GUY WANTS DEFINITIVE STATEMENTS FROM RWBY LOOOOOL

 

[CurrySenpai]

THIS GUY WANTS DEFINITIVE STATEMENTS FROM RWBY LOOOOOL

As scarce as the series is it still has side series and statements on abilities. I don’t care if the series doesn’t have a lot but I don’t want people pulling shit out of their ass like “Magic means stronger physicals they are tied.”

 

[Cire]

I think it’s very evident that magic boost physicals. Again, dying old lady held off a full grown woman from stabbing her.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

As scarce as the series is it still has side series and statements on abilities. I don’t care if the series doesn’t have a lot but I don’t want people pulling shit out of their ass like “Magic means stronger physicals they are tied.”

Ok I didn’t say that. If anything I’m firmly that the boost granted by magic to physicals is no where near the same as shooting pure magic at someone. The on-screen feats just seem to imply the physical strength amplification either way, so idk why a statement would be preferable.

It’s like someone takes a drug and suddenly gains the strength to punch a hole through a wall. Would you say the drug isn’t performance enhancing simply because nothing explicitly says so?

 

[Kingofwolves999]

I think it’s very evident that magic boost physicals. Again, dying old lady held off a full grown woman from stabbing her.

This implies that a Maidens power can be stronger than another’s, which goes against your idea that they are equal. And that instead the magic grows with time or training.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Ok I didn’t say that. If anything I’m firmly that the boost granted by magic to physicals is no where near the same as shooting pure magic at someone. The on-screen feats just seem to imply the physical strength amplification either way, so idk why a statement would be preferable.

It’s like someone takes a drug and suddenly gains the strength to punch a hole through a wall. Would you say the drug isn’t performance enhancing simply because nothing explicitly says so?

I wasn’t talking about you, mainly Cire and Spin

 

[Cire]

I wasn’t talking about you, mainly Cire and Spin

I mean I agree with his point about the on screen feats are clear to see.

 

[Cire]

This implies that a Maidens power can be stronger than another’s, which goes against your idea that they are equal. And that instead the magic grows with time or training.

I think it's from the fact that Cinder was not going all out, obisouly, but she was still trying her best to get her hand out of the way Fria. Like, once Cinder actually tried, she pulled her hand out. But the fact that a dying old lady was still able to stop her and restrain her is a a good inaction that magic boosts physicals.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Here’s the funnier thing I believe: maidens shouldn’t be Low 7-B at all and scaling them to Oscar’s shield is faulty since it was a fail safe to handle the energy of the Long Memory detonating all its power, not a controlled intentional shield NOT using all its power from Oz when he fought Cinder.

But that’s for another day

 

[Spinoirr]

Here’s the funnier thing I believe: maidens shouldn’t be Low 7-B at all and scaling them to Oscar’s shield is faulty since it was a fail safe to handle the energy of the Long Memory detonating all its power, not a controlled intentional shield NOT using all its power from Oz when he fought Cinder.

But that’s for another day

I have a small city level calc, though I need to have it checked frist before I post it

 

[CurrySenpai]

This implies that a Maidens power can be stronger than another’s, which goes against your idea that they are equal. And that instead the magic grows with time or training.

If anything that’s probably how it works. And why Winter was so strong because she was trained.

 

[Cire]

Here’s the funnier thing I believe: maidens shouldn’t be Low 7-B at all and scaling them to Oscar’s shield is faulty since it was a fail safe to handle the energy of the Long Memory detonating all its power, not a controlled intentional shield NOT using all its power from Oz when he fought Cinder.

But that’s for another day

How do we know it’s a fail safe? Oscar makes shield like that all the time, like at the end of V7. Maidens, canonically, have more magic power than Ozpin ever will. With each cycle, Ozpin loses magic power. The maidens should upscale from the shield due to the fact that their power hasn’t drained, while Ozpin’s has.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

I think it's from the fact that Cinder was not going all out, obisouly, but she was still trying her best to get her hand out of the way Fria. Like, once Cinder actually tried, she pulled her hand out. But the fact that a dying old lady was still able to stop her and restrain her is a a good inaction that magic boosts physicals.

Uh, it looked more like Fria stopped caring about holding her still. She opens her own hand, Cinder does not manage to overpower her.

Dying old lady with magic > Cinder’s Grimm Arm with magic?

 

[Cire]

Here’s the funnier thing I believe: maidens shouldn’t be Low 7-B at all and scaling them to Oscar’s shield is faulty since it was a fail safe to handle the energy of the Long Memory detonating all its power, not a controlled intentional shield NOT using all its power from Oz when he fought Cinder.

But that’s for another day

Where does it say it’s a fail safe? Oscar can make those shields anytime, like at the end of V7. And Maidens would scale above the shield anyway due to them having more magic than Oscar. With every cycle, Ozpin loses magic. He said as much in V5. While the maiden powers have stayed the same. Thus, they would upscale to any feats he performs without The Long Memory.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

How do we know it’s a fail safe? Oscar makes shield like that all the time, like at the end of V7. Maidens, canonically, have more magic power than Ozpin ever will. With each cycle, Ozpin loses magic power. The maidens should upscale from the shield due to the fact that their power hasn’t drained, while Ozpin’s has.

Where does it say it’s a fail safe? Oscar can make those shields anytime, like at the end of V7. And Maidens would scale above the shield anyway due to them having more magic than Oscar. With every cycle, Ozpin loses magic. He said as much in V5. While the maiden powers have stayed the same. Thus, they would upscale to any feats he performs without The Long Memory.

Ay, keep on track, no deviating. That was just my spicy take, we can tackle that another day.

 

[Cire]

Uh, it looked more like Fria stopped caring about holding her still. She opens her own hand, Cinder does not manage to overpower her.

Dying old lady with magic > Cinder’s Grimm Arm with magic?

Either way, we are still in the same boat that magic provides a strength boost. Thr arena feat is clear proof of that. Like Penny could sorta move it on her own, but she had to add the maiden powers to make the full push.

 

[Cire]

Ay, keep on track, no deviating. That was just my spicy take, we can tackle that another day.

Will do. Another day. I actually have another CRT On Oscar’s shield that I’m cooking up. But I am glad to see we agree on this one matter.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Either way, we are still in the same boat that magic provides a strength boost. Thr arena feat is clear proof of that. Like Penny could sorta move it on her own, but she had to add the maiden powers to make the full push.

This is more of a multiplier then, stacking her maiden powers on top of her normal strength not Maiden powers will make your physicals tier 7 immediately

 

[Cire]

If anything that’s probably how it works. And why Winter was so strong because she was trained.

I mean she didn’t have any magic to train with is the deal. Fria probably told her about the magic and how to use it, but being explained how to be an expert bike rider and then getting on the bike for the very first time to do it are two very different things.

 

[Cire]

This is more of a multiplier then, stacking her maiden powers on top of her normal strength not Maiden powers will make your physicals tier 7 immediately

What I’m saying is that the maiden powers boost your preexisting physicals. It’s like a transformation. And again, Amber had more time to use her powers compared to like Cinder. That brings up another point. Ozpin himself was able to hold off Cinder and inflict damage on her. He was keeping up for a good while. While he died at the end, he put up a very good fight. This helps with the downscaling situation.

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

This sh*t’s been up 5 hours and it’s already 3 pages god damn

Anyways imma look at this later

Edit: 5 hours, not 3, I can’t read apparenty

 

[Cire]

This sh*t’s been up 5 hours and it’s already 3 pages god damn

Anyways imma look at this later

I won’t back down from this because I truly do believe that they scale.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Cire The aura stuff like how every other fight literally shows the aura flickering or breaking as a sign of someone on their last knees or being out of commission, something the show does consistently to show the difference in power between the two fighter. Also again, that doesn’t change the fact that Batman doesn’t physically scale to Darkseid by default unless he’s got some way to physically contend with the dude that Superman and Wonder Woman have a hard time dealing with, the same folks that are very clearly out of Batman’s league.

 

[Cire]

@Cire The aura stuff like how every other fight literally shows the aura flickering or breaking as a sign of someone on their last knees or being out of commission, something the show does consistently to show the difference in power between the two fighter. Also again, that doesn’t change the fact that Batman doesn’t physically scale to Darkseid by default unless he’s got some way to physically contend with the dude that Superman and Wonder Woman have a hard time dealing with, the same folks that are very clearly out of Batman’s league.

Can you clarify the aura stuff with the knife stuff? I’m not quite sure I understand. Winter deflected the knives with no aura.

Also, you are comparing a street tier hero to an outerversal one. The disparity between non maidens and maidens are not nearly that big. Especially when non maidens don’t need a special weapon to hurt maidens. They don’t with their own power.

Edit: They do with their own power. Typo.

 

[Theglassman12]

Does the knife deflecting have anything to do with the aura depleting for both Cinder and Winter in that fight or no? Because as shown with Tyrian vs Qrow, the former slapped around Team RNGR with no problems and shrugged off all of their attacks, and Qrow showing up not only trading blows equally, but managing to have both of their aura flicker and break in the end to where someone like Ruby was able to cut off Tyrian's tail when normally she couldn't do anything. That's how fights in RWBY have always shown the comparison of power levels between each other. So can you prove that Winter was able to damage or break the aura of Cinder before she became a maiden? If you cannot, you're basically ignoring the in universe explanation for power levels between the hunters and huntresses.

 

[Cire]

Does the knife deflecting have anything to do with the aura depleting for both Cinder and Winter in that fight or no? Because as shown with Tyrian vs Qrow, the former slapped around Team RNGR with no problems and shrugged off all of their attacks, and Qrow showing up not only trading blows equally, but managing to have both of their aura flicker and break in the end to where someone like Ruby was able to cut off Tyrian's tail when normally she couldn't do anything. That's how fights in RWBY have always shown the comparison of power levels between each other. So can you prove that Winter was able to damage or break the aura of Cinder before she became a maiden? If you cannot, you're basically ignoring the in universe explanation for power levels between the hunters and huntresses.

I mean Tyrian beat the group because he was simply more skilled then them. I think you're focusing way too much on the aura. But if you want to go that route, Cinder had her aura and maiden magic up while fulling intending to kill Winter. And Winter held her own for a while, deflecting the knives and blocking slashes with her blade.

I will also say that Grimm have no aura, but are also still considered to be extremely deadly threats. Like, the Hound was able to rag doll a maiden Penny. That's all physical power, which Cinder has in her Grimm arm.

You are basically stating that, because her Grimm arm is considered a weak spot, that it has no feats. And I am saying that it does. It is able to be strong enough to fight against another maidens, with Raven, Penny, and Winter. And pre-maiden Winter can cut it off with no problem.

As for if Winter hurt Cinder before she became a maiden, she was able to inflict damage on her with a fire ball from her summoned manticore. Cinder makes a hurt grunt when it lands on her.

I feel like you are focusing way too much on one example while ignoring everything else presented. We have proof characters can hurt maidens and actually make them try in a fight. Cinder vs Penny and Winter was audible panting and trying her damndest to kill them, but failed to.

 

[Cire]

And before you say that we don't visible see Cinder's aura flicker, again note the fact that aura is like a health bar. And no matter how much damage you inflict on it, it's always going to go down in some capacity.

 

[DMUA]

The OP isn't very compelling by itself, and I agree with what's been said to reject it

 

[Cire]

The OP isn't very compelling by itself, and I agree with what's been said to reject it

I cannot agree with that. We are all simply ignoring multiple feats based on vibes and differing standards of what constitutes a stomp.

 

[Cire]

Going back to Oscar's shield, that could be a way to scale the characters to the maiden's level without exactly scaling them. If we put out that Oscar's shield can be matched by base cast, that would put them near the same level.

Again, Oscar's own magic failed to make a dent while Yang blows open a hole in Salem's chest. Elm shrugs off the same bombs in a later scene.

 

[Cire]

This supports the point that Oscar's own magic is surpassed by the main cast.

 

[Cire]

It also helps that Ozpin's magic gets weaker with every generation, as seen with this tweet by Eddy.





So the Ozpin magic that Ozpin used to fight Cinder in V3 would have been weaker when Oscar uses it.

 

[Cire]

Bump

 

[Cire]

Bump